The Road Back to You: Looking at Life Through the Lens of the Enneagram

By Ian Morgan Cron & Suzanne Stabile

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This podcast explores the enneagram, a newly revived yet ancient spiritual tool of personality discovery which helps you better understand yourself, others and God.

Episode Date
Connecting the Head and Heart: Knowing When to Observe or Help with Al (2) and Nita (5) Andrews - Episode 32

This is the series finale of The Road Back to You. On this episode, Ian and Suzanne speak with Al (Enneagram 2 - The Helper) and Nita (Enneagram 5 - The Investigator) Andrews. 

Al and Nita Andrews have more than 40 collective years counseling couples into healthy relationships. They are active at several ministries in Nashville and Franklin, Tennessee. Porter’s Call, Thistle Farms (paper studio), and St. Augustines Chapel at Vanderbilt. 

Jun 09, 2017
The Gift of Thinking with Kenny Benge, Enneagram 5 (The Investigator) - Episode 31

On this week’s episode of The Road Back to You, Ian and Suzanne speak with Kenny Benge who is a 5 on the Enneagram. Kenny is a Prior at Church of The Redeemer in Nashville, TN. 



May 03, 2017
Dealing with Your Constant Critic with Ramsey Patton, Enneagram 1 (The Perfectionist) - Episode 30
One of the Enneagram numbers most requested by our listeners is the #1! And today we have a very special Enneagram One for you!
Ian and Suzanne’s guest is Ramsey Patton. She is a former lawyer, and now the Associate Pastor of Caring Ministries at Highland Park United Methodist Church in Dallas, TX. As part of her pastoral role, she leads a weekly worship service for the special needs community called, The Feast.
As a healthy One, Ramsey has committed her life to serving others, and we know you are going to love what she has to say.
Apr 05, 2017
The Enneagram in Marriage with Andy Gullahorn, Enneagram 9 (The Peacemaker) and Jill Phillips, Enneagram 6 (The Loyalist) - Episode 29
On this episode of The Road Back to You, Ian and Suzanne’s guest are Jill Phillips and Andy Gullahorn. Jill is an Enneagram 6 (The Loyalist) and Andy a 9 (The Peacemaker). Their insight into how the Enneagram has helped them in their marriage and their role as parents while balancing their lives as full-time musicians is nothing short of inspiring.
We have also included a bonus song, recorded by Jill and Andy live in The Road Back To You studio. Whether you are an Enneagram 6 or 9, married to a 6 or 9, or are close friends with either number, we think you’ll find this episode invaluable. Enjoy!
Mar 22, 2017
Special Announcement from The Road Back to You Team

Listen to a special announcement regarding the show moving forward!

Mar 15, 2017
Being Grounded in Life’s Adventure with Lillian Daniel, Enneagram 7 (The Enthusiast) - Episode 28
Today Ian and Suzanne’s guest on The Road Back To You is Lillian Daniel. A pastor, author and award-winning preacher, who happens to be an Enneagram 7.
In her interview, she talks about the process of discovering her number, the upside, and downside it has had on her life and vocation, and the importance of being grounded and living in the present moment. 
Lillian’s enthusiasm for life will lift your day and help you gain a deeper understanding into the stimulating, and adventurous, Enneagram 7 .
Mar 09, 2017
Enneagram In Leadership with Michael Hyatt, Enneagram 3 (The Performer) - Episode 27

Welcome to Season Two of The Road Back To You: Looking at life through the lense of the Enneagram.

To start this season, we are honored to have Mr. Michael Hyatt as our guest. Michael is an author, speaker, businessman, and virtual mentor. His accomplishments are featured in Forbes, Businessweek, The Wall Street Journal, CNN, and The New York Times.

Michael is a healthy Enneagram 3. As a husband, the father of five daughters, and a successful CEO, we believe his experience will be invaluable to you.

We hope you will enjoy the first podcast of this season!

Also, we have a new website, and we’re offering you the opportunity to partner with us as we continue to grow. You can find out more details by clicking on the DONATE tab on our website.

Mar 01, 2017
The Enneagram in Life, Work, and Marriage - A Conversation with Wade and Heather Hodges -Enneagram 3 (The Performer) and 8 (The Challenger) - Episode 26

If you’re married, or in a long-term relationship, you have experienced the struggle of understanding your partner and trying to interpret their behavior. You’ve learned that relationship is a balancing act of making two lives function together, while allowing each other the freedom of your individualities.

Our guests today on The Road Back To You are Wade and Heather Hodges. Wade is a pastor, author, husband, and father. Heather is a visual and performing artist, wife, and mother. Their insight will help you understand:

1. How the Enneagram gives a couple permission to give each other space.
2. How the Enneagram relieves the pressure you feel to change your spouse.
3. The value of giving each other the opportunity to process your experiences differently.
4. How each of your gifts complements each other’s weaknesses and forms a stronger team.

This episode is essential for any couple; whether you have ju [...]

Feb 01, 2017
Processing Pain through Optimism - Insight to the Enneagram 7 (The Enthusiast) with Mihee Kim-Kort - Episode 25

If you’re an Enneagram 7, you probably thrive on the idea that variety is the spice of life and you draw energy from staying active. Also, there’s a good chance people accuse you of being optimistic to a fault.

Welcome to the world of today’s guest, Mihee Kim-Kort; Presbyterian Pastor, Author, Blogger (, mother of three (five-year-old twins and a three-year-old) and a self-ascribed hopemonger. You will resonate with Mihee when she describes her life as “Getting really excited about a lot of things, but never really knowing where her keys are!”

She helps us look into the life of an “Enthusiast.” A life where the routines of motherhood presents a challenge and optimism is often used as a way to fend off pain.

Mihee is fun, adventurous, spiritually grounded, and resilient, so get ready for an enlightening, energetic episode of The Road Back To You.

Also, [...]

Jan 25, 2017
The Enneagram and Therapy - A dialogue with Chris Gonzalez - Enneagram 9 (The Peacemaker) - Episode 24

Chris Gonzalez is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and the Director of the Marriage and Family Therapy program at Lipscomb University. He is also a husband, father and an Enneagram 9.

In his conversation with Ian, Suzanne on The Road Back To You, they discuss how understanding the Enneagram can be valuable in therapy, and some very helpful tools for resolving family conflict.

To round out their conversation, Chris gives a therapist perspective of living life as an Enneagram 9; we hope you will enjoy today’s program.

Jan 18, 2017
Learning You Have A Voice: Insights from Sarah Bessey - Enneagram 9 (The Peacemaker) - Episode 23

Today’s guest on The Road Back To You is Sarah Bessey (Enneagram 9): Blogger, Speaker, Wife, Mother of four, and Author of two books, Out of Sorts: Making Peace with an Evolving Faith and Jesus Feminist: An Invitation to Revisit the Bible’s View of Women.

If you tend to do anything to avoid conflict or wrestle with the importance of your life, then Sarah’s perspective will be eye opening for you. From this incredibly insightful woman who jokes about being passive aggressive as her “spiritual gift,” you will learn how being a peacemaker can become both a virtue and a vice.

Listen now as we discover how 9’s are natural meditators and why healthy nines learn to make decisions based on right priorities.

Jan 11, 2017
Being Judged Before You Are Known - A Conversation With Jo Saxton - Enneagram 8 - Episode 22

Our guest in Episode 22 is Jo Saxton (Enneagram8);Author, Speaker, Host of the popular podcast “Lead Stories,” Chairman of the Board for a large non-profit, Lutheran Pastor, and as she so energetically puts it, “a Nigerian Londoner.” And if that isn’t enough, Relevant Magazine has just listed Jo as one of “7 Leaders to Follow in 2017.”

Jo is every bit an Enneagram 8. She’s a bundle of energy who doesn’t just walk into a room; she owns it. But with this confidence, you will learn that there is a price to pay. A price because she is a woman and also because she is a woman of color.

If you have every felt betrayed, misunderstood, or judged before someone took the time to get to know you, then this episode of The Road Back To You could change your life.

As Jo talks to Ian and Suzanne, you will begin to see how she has learned that she is not just tolerated by God, but rather she is fearfully and wonder [...]

Jan 04, 2017
Finding a Place of Honesty - A Conversation with Jim Danaher - Enneagram 3 - Episode 21

You would think that a Professor of Philosophy and author of five books would, for the most part, have life figured out. But what we learn from today’s guest Jim Danaher (Enneagram 3) is that we all need to continue to do soul-work, to strengthen the muscles of self-observation to get to a place of honesty.

Jim, an academic and expert on contemplative prayer, speaks of how coming into stillness helps us see that it’s not enough to find our identity in our image and what we accomplish.

In Ian and Suzanne’s conversation with an Enneagram 3, we learn how to step away from the constant need to overachieve and recognize the importance of being instead of just doing.

Dec 14, 2016
Anger, Vulnerability, and Spiritual Transformation: Insight from Patrick Chappell - Enneagram 8 - Episode 20

Enneagram 8’s are known to be aggressive, champions of justice, and people who welcome opposition. Our guest Patrick Chappell is the only African American staff member in a large southern church, an Enneagram 8, and one of the best people we know to help us understand how our individual life story shapes our personality.

Ian, Suzanne, and Patrick explore dealing with feelings of betrayal and how to manage our anger to live a life of grace.

Because of Patrick’s unique situation, he offers keen insight to help us gain a deeper understanding and compassion for one other.

Dec 07, 2016
Living In An Age of Profound Anxiety: A Conversation with Jeff Chu - Enneagram 6 - Episode 19

Our guest today on The Road Back To You is Jeff Chu (Enneagram 6), a journalist whose work has appeared in The New York Times Magazine, Travel+Leisure, The Wall Street Journal, and Time Magazine. He is the author of Does Jesus Really Love Me?: A Gay Christian’s Pilgrimage in Search of God in America and currently a student at Princeton Seminary.

As a writer who has professionally spent most of his career telling other people’s story, Jeff explores how examining his own story has lead to the discovery of a kinder, better, more loving version of himself.

His conversation with Ian and Suzanne will help you understand how a person who comes from a culture that doesn’t tend to honor self-examination and uniqueness of identity has utilized the Enneagram to help provide a better framework and new vocabulary for shaping his life.


Nov 30, 2016
Reclaiming Hope: A Conversation with Michael Wear on Politics, the Enneagram, and how America moves forward - Episode 18

The election is over. How do you feel?

For some, the response to what happened last week is pure elation, and others complete disgust. But for most, the feelings are likely surrounded by confusion, fear, apprehension, and uncertainty about the future.

As promised, author and political strategist Michael Wear returns to The Road Back To You to help Ian and Suzanne examine what just happened and how it profoundly affects everyone.

Here are some things that you don’t want to miss:

  • How to approach opposing viewpoints with the expectation of gaining perspective that sharpens your thinking.
  • How to avoid using your passion as a weapon to silence others, or to coerce or manipulate the conversation your way.
  • How to utilize the Enneagram to help understand your motivation.
  • How to respond to others instead of reacting.
  • How to discover a path of hope in the midst of profound disappointment.
  • [...]
Nov 16, 2016
“How Do You Manage The Unrest In Your Soul?” A Heart-To-Heart Encounter With Michael Cusick (Enneagram 2) - Episode 17

Do you feel like St. Paul, wondering why you continue to do the very things you don’t want to do?

Do you desire something that seems unavailable to you … knowing you are safe; feeling like you are wanted; believing your needs will be taken care of?

This week on The Road Back to You, Suzanne and Ian interview Michael Cusick, a psychotherapist, ordained minister, speaker, and author of Surfing For God: Discovering the Divine Desire Beneath Sexual Struggle.

Michael brings an incredible depth of professional and personal experience to our conversation as he describes his life as a broken man on a journey to wholeness.

Listen as we explore:

  • The wisdom of the Enneagram as a helpful tool for healing and change in your marriage
  • Overcoming the message that it is wrong to love yourself
  • Understanding and awareness in dealing with addiction that is part of Enneagram wisdom
  • The reality tha [...]
Nov 10, 2016
Who Are You On Social Media? A conversation with Austin Graff (Enneagram 2 or 6?) - Episode 16

Have you been listening to The Road Back To You podcast and still don’t know your Enneagram number?

Then you’re not alone.

Our guest this week is Austin Graff; Talent Acquisition and Branding Specialist for The Washington Post, and former social media specialist for International Justice Mission and Honest Tea.

Austin has known about the Enneagram for several years and is struggling to choose between the two numbers that sound like him. In this episode, as Au [...]

Nov 02, 2016
The Enneagram and the Creative Process: Part 2 with Cindy Morgan (Enneagram 4) and Andrew Greer (Enneagram 2) - Episode 15

Last week Ian and Suzanne interviewed Cindy Morgan and Andrew Greer, Enneagram 4 and 2 respectively, and how their personality traits impact their relationship with each other as touring musicians and songwriters.

This week, in Part 2 of their interview, they dive deeper into their Enneagram numbers, and explore:

1. How 4’s are the only number on the Enneagram who can bear witness to the pain and not have to fix it.
2. The meaning of being present to the Presence.
3. Where 2’s and 4’s go in the midst of stress and security.
4. How their personality type [...]

Oct 26, 2016
The Enneagram and the Creative Process: Insight from Cindy Morgan (Enneagram 4) and Andrew Greer (Enneagram 2) - Part 1 - Episode 14

Do you ever wonder how the Enneagram can help in your relationship with another person?

Maybe you work with someone who is on the opposite side of the personality spectrum, and you have a hard time connecting or relating to them.

Well, this week’s podcast should be very helpful for you!

Ian and Suzanne interview Cindy Morgan (Enneagram 4) and Andrew Greer (Enneagram 2); two of Nashville’s finest singer/songwriters who write, tour and sing together.

Oct 18, 2016
Dealing With Your Need to Perform: A conversation with Darren Whitehead - Enneagram 3 (The Performer) - Episode 13

Do other people see you as a winner?  Are they compelled to follow you and are you excited to lead? Do you wake up with a plan for the day and a full schedule? Then there’s a good chance you are a THREE.

Then there is a good chance you may be an Enneagram 3!

This week on The Road Back To You, Ian and Suzanne interview Darren Whitehead an Australian husband, father, pastor, and author living in America, who happens to be a healthy, integrated Enneagram 3.

Oct 04, 2016
When Good Enough Is Never Good Enough: A conversation with Christopher and Amanda Philips - Enneagram 1 (The Perfectionist) - Episode 12

Over the past weeks on The Road Back To You podcast, we have discovered how the Enneagram can be a helpful tool in understanding ourselves and others.

But what happens when a married couple is the same Enneagram number? Especially when that Number is Enneagram 1 (The Perfectionist)?

Join Ian and Suzanne as they interview Christopher and Amanda Phillips, parents of two young children. Hear how they…

  • Navigate their different areas of focus
  • Live and d [...]
Sep 21, 2016
Understanding Your Need To Be Understood: An Interview with Don Chaffer - Enneagram 4 (The Romantic) - Episode 11

In our last program, we viewed politics and personality through the eyes of an Enneagram 4.

In this interview, Ian and Suzanne continue their exploration of the Enneagram 4 through the thoughts and stories of Don Chaffer, one of the singer/songwriters in the group Waterdeep. Also: producer, engineer, and, lately, musical theater composer/lyricist.

If you are a person who enjoys the unusual, the dramatic, and the textured side of life, then discover:

Sep 13, 2016
Politics and Personality - An Interview with Michael Wear - Enneagram 4 (The Romantic) - Episode 10

Are you as anxious about the upcoming election and the polarization that has gripped our nation as we are? 

Given the troubled political climate, we decided to take a hiatus from our series exploring each of the nine types to talk politics through the lens of the Enneagram.

Ian and Suzanne’s guest this week is Michael Wear. An Enneagram 4, Michael directed faith outreach for President Obama’s 2012 re-election campaign. One of the youngest White House staffers in [...]

Aug 30, 2016
Taking Care of Yourself: An interview with Hunter Mobley - Enneagram 2 (The Helper) - Episode 9

Is setting boundaries in your life a problem? Are you more comfortable giving than receiving? Do you secure a place for everyone at the table but fail to save a seat for yourself?

Then there’s a good chance you’re an Enneagram 2 (The Helper)!

Join Ian and Suzanne on this week’s episode of The Road Back To You as they interview Hunter Mobley, Executive Pastor at Christ Church Nashville and Adjunct Professor of Law at Belmont University. Hunter is a mature Enneagram 2 who talks openly about some of these complex questions:

Aug 23, 2016
Don’t Let Fear Control Your Life! An Interview with Sarah Thebarge - Enneagram 6 (The Loyalist) - Episode 8

Have you ever felt like the wheels have fallen off the train of your life? How did you respond? Did you get angry, cower in a corner in the fetal position and suck your thumb, or did you get up and blaze a new trail?

On this week’s episode of The Road Back To You, we welcome author, blogger, speaker, and Enneagram 6 (The Loyalist) Sarah Thebarge who when faced with a seemingly insurmountable crisis, pressed against her fear to embrace a new adventure. 

Ian, Suzanne an [...]

Aug 16, 2016
Finding Your Place In the World: An Interview with Michael Gungor -Enneagram 5 (The Investigator) - Episode 7

Has anyone ever described you as an “information junkie” or as a loner? Do you believe “thoughts” are more reliable than “feelings?” Are you more comfortable observing rather than participating in life? 

If so, you might be an Enneagram 5 (The Investigator)! 

This week celebrated singer-songwriter, author, a member of the musical collective Gungor, and co-host of The Liturgists Podcast Michael Gungor takes Ian and Suzanne on a rare private tour through the labyrinth-like mind of an Enneagram 5 (The Investigator). 

Listen as Michael explains:

  • How Enneagram 5’s can’t survive without setting aside time to be alone and refill.
  • How 5 [...]
Aug 09, 2016
Savor Everything: An Interview with Shauna Niequist - Enneagram 7 (The Enthusiast) - Episode 6

Do you insist on spontaneity? Are you an eternal optimist? Are you alway thinking and planning your next great adventure? If so, you might be an Enneagram 7 (a.k.a. The Enthusiast).        

Today Ian and Suzanne interview Shauna Niequist, bestselling author, speaker, blogger, mother, wife, and a poster child for 7’s on the Enneagram! Join them as they discuss:

  • How not to wear out those around you with your excessiveness and effusive spirit
  • How to slow down and focus enough to communicate at the level of the heart.
  • How to turn exuberance into a tool for encouragement
  • How to give yourself permission not to be a “desert monk. [...]
Jul 27, 2016
Learning To Express Confidence About The Things You Believe: An interview with Science Mike - Enneagram 9 (The Peacemaker) - Episode 5
In Episode 5 Ian and Suzanne interview Mike McHargue, host of the popular podcast Ask Science Mike and co-host of the podcast The Liturgists. Tune in as Science Mike dissects and explains his life as an Enneagram 9 (The Peacemaker). Before its over, you’ll learn how the Enneagram can help you:
  • Assert and express yourself with confidence.
  • Be who you are rather than “merge” with the crowd. 
  • Identify and overcome your blind spots.
  • See life through the eyes of others
Jul 25, 2016
Dealing With Your Stuff: Continued Conversation with Nadia Bolz-Weber - Enneagram 8 (The Challenger) - Episode 4

In Episode Four, Ian and Suzanne welcome pastor and bestselling author Nadia Bolz-Weber back to the show. Join this dangerous trio as they talk about:

  • The Enneagram and recovery
  • Dealing with “your stuff”
  • The importance of practicing self-compassion
  • How the Enneagram helps Nadia pastor her church
  • Movies, songs, and hymn choices for different Enneagram numbers. 

This episode is chock full of laughs and wisdom, so we hope you’ll come along for the ride!

Jul 20, 2016
Find Power in Vulnerability: An Interview with Pastor Nadia Bolz-Weber - Enneagram 8 (The Challenger) - Episode 3

In The Road Back To You, Episode #3,

Jul 18, 2016
Discover the Enneagram - Episode 2

In this sophomore Enneagram episode of the podcast The Road Back To You, Ian Morgan Cron and SuzanneStabile continue their discussion with Luke Norsworthy, host of the popular podcast Newsworthy with Norsworthy. In this episode they continue to explore the history and oral tradition of the Enneagram,discuss the different categories of the Enneagram and look at the different arenas they have taught and used the Enneagram around the world,and explore how the Enneagram has impacted their lives, marriage and families.

Jul 08, 2016
Discover the Enneagram! - Episode 1

Luke Norsworthy (, host of the popular podcast Newsworthy with Norsworthy guest host with Suzanne and Ian to discuss the history of the Enneagram, how they were first exposed to it, begin teaching it and ultimately wrote the book The Road Back To You: An Enneagram Journey to Self-Discovery.

Jul 03, 2016