Marriage After God

By Aaron & Jennifer Smith

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 Feb 25, 2019


Marriage After God is a weekly marriage focused Christian based podcast hosted by Aaron and Jennifer Smith, authors of Husband After God and Wife After God and their newest book titled Marriage After God: Chasing Boldly After God's Purpose For Your Life Together. Marriage After God is intended to encourage, inspire and challenge Christian marriages to chase boldly after God together and to cultivate an extraordinary marriage with each other. Each episode will focus on relevant marriage issues including intimacy, healthy living, boundaries, pornography, biblical living, tips for families, parenting and more. Stay tuned each week for awesome marriage encouragement. Marriage can be hard, especially when we don't understand the God-given purpose for it. We pray that we can shine a light on why God has brought you and your spouse together and how you can pursue His purpose for your life and family with joy and excitement.

Episode Date
Encouragement for Chasing Boldly After God Together

In today's episode on the Marriage After God podcast, our goal is to encourage you on your pursuit to chase after God. Everyone needs encouragement and to be reminded of the hope they have from time to time. We urge you to listen thoughtfully to this episode and share it with your spouse or anyone else that could use some cheering.


"The first encouragement we want to give all of you on your journey is: don't be afraid! This journey can be fear-filled sometimes, and the enemy wants to make us afraid. So, I just wanted to read this verse, Jeremiah 17:7-8 ESV 'Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose trust is the Lord.He is like a tree planted by water, that sends out its roots by the stream, and does not fear when heat comes, for its leaves remain green and is not anxious in the year of drought, for it does not cease to bear fruit." - Aaron Smith


We pray this message leaves you hopeful as well as excited about God's plan and purpose for you.

Nov 06, 2019
Boundaries With the Opposite Sex - Part Two

Today, we are entering into the second half of our topic, "Boundaries With the Opposite Sex." If you didn't listen to last week's episode, listen to it right now before jumping into today's podcast!

"I want to encourage everyone out there, that maybe their spouses aren't at this place yet, and remind everyone that it's a growing process. We didn't just show up to our marriage with this way of being and understand it fully and walk in it perfectly. We are walking this out day by day. " Jennifer Smith

We pray that today's podcast would start a healthy conversation between you and your spouse and that your hearts would be submitted to God and protecting your marriage from the enemy. If your heart is already for this, we encourage you to walk out what you desire your spouse to step out and fervently pray for their heart.


Oct 30, 2019
Boundaries With the Opposite Sex - Part One

In today's episode, we're talking about hard conversations again, but this time, we're very specific. "Blessed is the one who finds wisdom and the one who gets understanding." Proverbs 3:13. As always, we hope to inspire you to be a light in this world. Our hearts desire that everyone listening, listens with a teachable heart. We pray this episode blesses you.

Oct 24, 2019
7 Battle Verses for Overcoming Sin - Part Two

The word of God is sharper than any two edge sword it cuts through the bone and it pierces to the soul, it’s the thing that transforms us. Today in the Marriage After God Podcast we are going over four anchor verses to meditate on when you are trying to overcome sin.

“If you’re a believer and you’re practicing sin and getting better at it, you better think long and hard of what you know of God, and to who you belong. “ Aaron Smith

Our desire is that today’s podcast not only helps equip you to  overcome temptation and sin, but that it also prepares you to encourage your spouse when they are wrestling with sin.  We pray that this episode blesses you.

Oct 18, 2019
7 Battle Verses for Overcoming Sin - Part One

The word of God is sharper than any two edge sword it cuts through the bone and it pierces to the soul, it’s the thing that transforms us. Today in the Marriage After God Podcast we are going over several anchor verses to meditate on when you are trying to overcome sin.

“This is not a conversation about how to be saved, that we walk perfectly and holy and that’s how God is going to receive us. No. This is a conversation that the believers are already saved, and being sanctified. But it’s through the knowledge of the word of God that we are more and more sanctified and walk in more and more holiness. The desire is that we hate our sin more and more the same way God hates our sin because our sin destroys us.” - Aaron Smith

Our desire is that today’s podcast not only helps equip you to fight temptation, but that it also prepares you to encourage your spouse when they are wrestling with sin. We pray that this episode blesses you.

Oct 09, 2019
Encouragement for Newlyweds

Everyone can use a little encouragement now and then so whether you just got married (congrats!) or you've been married for a long time stay tuned for today's episode! After all, don't we all want to have the newlywed exuberance, excitement, and love?

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 ESV "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away."

Our desire is that today's Marriage After God podcast helps you quickly realize what your marriage is actually about so you can start your marriage off with an eternal perspective. If you know any newlyweds or soon to be newlyweds please share this episode with them so that they might be encouraged and blessed!

Oct 02, 2019
The Return Of Christ

In this episode, we discuss the return of Christ and how it is to encourage us as believers.

Sep 25, 2019
The Gospel

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The gospel is the foundation of everything us Christians believe, and the reason we started our Marriage After God ministry. In this week's episode of The Marriage After God podcast, we are discussing the singular most important topic we will ever discuss on this podcast - The Gospel. There is both infinite simplicity and complexity in the gospel, but today our goal is to simplify the gospel.

"There's a reason why we want to simplify it, I don't know about you, but I'm going to be a little bit vulnerable here. I have been a Christian for a very long time... I became a Christian at 17, and now I'm 35. I was raised in a Christian home, so I knew God, but it wasn't until maybe three years ago that I could actually fully verbalize the gospel." - Aaron Smith

Our goal is that today's podcast will clarify the gospel message for our listeners and get them comfortable with expressing it to others. We pray this episode blesses you.

Thanks for Listening,

Aaron & Jennifer Smith

Sep 18, 2019
What Does God Love?

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I was reading in Psalms 37, and there was a line that says “For the Lord loves justice”… and I thought how cool is it that the word directly told us what God loves.

I thought it would be fun and instructive for us to find out if there are any more places in the bible that tell us directly what God loves.

If God loves it, maybe we should too. And we know from Psalm 107 that God's steadfast love endures forever. It never ends or changes so he must still love today those things he said he loves back then.

Psalm 36:7 How precious is your steadfast love, O God!

THE WORLD John 3:16

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

The world, meaning the people he created in His image. Mankind

1 John 4:19 We love because he first loved us.

If God loves the people he created, then I think we must do the same.

Romans 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

CHEERFUL GIVER 2 Corinthians 9:7

Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

JUSTICE Psalm 37:28

For the Lord loves justice; he will not forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off.

It was God’s justice that put Jesus to death. Because the only way we could be Justified is if the penalty for our transgressions were paid for. The requirement of the law must be fulfilled. And it was in Jesus.

Listen to what we will pay if we do not receive this amazing free gift from God.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

So we should love that God is just. He doesn't just let the sin go undealt with. If he did he would be unjust. He is even going to justly deal with all the wicked things of this world.

Revelation 21:4

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”


For the Lord is righteous; he loves righteous deeds; the upright shall behold his face.

Ephesians 2:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Proverbs 15:9 The way of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord, but he loves him who pursues righteousness.

Psalm 146:8 “The Lord loves the righteous”

The Jewish Nation Hosea 3:1

And the Lord said to me, “Go again, love a woman who is loved by another man and is an adulteress, even as the Lord loves the children of Israel, though they turn to other gods and love cakes of raisins.”

We should love the jews. God chose them to be the people to receive the Law and to bring us the messiah.

Jesus was a jew.

All of the apostles where jews.

Let’s be praying for those who have not received Jesus as their messiah. Let’s pray for revival.

The disciples John 16:27

for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

God loved the disciples.

God Loves Jesus John 10:17

For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.

God loves His Son He always has and He always will john 15:9

As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.

God loves Jesus



Dear Lord,

Thank you for your steadfast love. Thank you for loving us even yet while we were sinners. Thank you for showing us in your word what you love. We pray that we would abide in your love every day. We pray your love would manifest in our hearts and pour out into our relationships with others. May your love change us and transform us. May your love radically impact our marriages by the way we love our spouse. Help us to understand even more deeply your love for us and receive it with a humble heart. We pray we would show you our love by obeying your word and keeping it.

In Jesus’ name, amen!

Sep 11, 2019
Here We Go Again!

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The truth is we have some exciting news! Must listen to find out what :)

Sep 04, 2019
Tips for Hard Conversations With Your Spouse

There comes a moment in every marriage, if not many moments in marriage, that a couple needs to have a hard conversation with each other. This is one of those conversations that require a bit more than just chatting over dinner.

  • Confronting sin
  • Parenting differences
  • Inlaw relationship conflict
  • Big decisions
  • Areas of growth or change

We have had our share of these.

We thought we would use this time today to share with you how we have experienced these types of conversations in our marriage and what we have learned, in hopes of encouraging you when these moments come up in your marriage.

The wrong way

  • Emotionally charged
  •   - No properly dealing with emotions
  •   - Stuffing down until the conversation
  • With generalities
  •   - You always
  •   - You never
  • On different sides
  •   - viewing your spouse as an enemy rather than partner
  • Personal agenda or wrong motives
  • Not specific and focused
  • Drawing up other issues and mixing with current issue
  • To be right
  •   - I don’t care how I get here just must end our right
  • Being hard & Prideful
  • Right before a date or romantic experience….Bad Timing
  • Discerning how important the thing is can it wait
  • Is it sabotaging
  • Our responses

The Biblical Way

  • Timing is kind.
  •  - If you have something important to discuss, consider the timing. 
  • Being considerate
  • Discerning
  • Not avoiding.
  •  - Go to brother in private to win your brother, not the issue. 
  • Pray about it.
  • Pray they receive.
  • Pray about what you want to say
  • Make plans for undistracted time to talk.
  •  - This includes putting the phones away.
  • Make/Take Notes.
  •  - To keep you on point or to help you hear your spouse. 
  • Be specific avoid generalities
  • Know your end result.
  •  - Always Reconciliation. 	
  • Don't avoid the conversation.
  •  - If you feel like you should say something, you probably should. 


Dear Lord,

Thank You for the intimacy of marriage. Marriage can me messy and challenging at times, but it is such an incredible place for deep love to exist. Please help us to be transparent in marriage. Help us to walk in light, as well as grace. Lord, please help us to confront the issues that need to be confronted and to say the hard things in love. We pray we would be courageous and humble, willing to make time for each other, to share and to listen. We pray we would have hearts that truly desire reconciliation. May You go before us and with us as we share these moments in marriage and may these moments be growth opportunities that make us stronger and that help us to love deeper.

In Jesus’ name, amen!

Aug 28, 2019
The Parable of the Good Samaritan

In this episode, we discuss a powerful and edifying way to interpret The Parable of the Good Samaritan.

Also, We would like to invite you to take the 31-day marriage prayer challenge completely free. Please click here to join in with thousands of couples.

Aug 21, 2019
An Easy & Fun Way To Start A Family Bible Time In your Home

In this episode, we share a very fun, engaging and easy resource to help you start a family bible time in your home.

Also, We would like to invite you to take the 31-day marriage prayer challenge completely free. Please click here to join in with thousands of couples.

Aug 14, 2019
What does Hobby Lobby, Giveaways, and Marriage Have In Common?

God is so good!!! Jennifer and I are so excited that our newest book, Marriage After God, is now available at your local Hobby Lobby! How incredible is that!

PS. Hobby Lobby is the cheapest place to find our book. It's only $14.99, which is a whopping 40% OFF.

But instead of just announcing it to you, we wanted to launch a fun giveaway instead to see if we could encourage you to go to your Hobby Lobby. Since there isnt enough reasons already ;)

First, let's talk about what we are giving away.

  • 1 winner to receive a $250 Hobby Lobby Gift card!😃
  • 10 winners will receive a $25 Gift Card to our online store. 🤗

Now for the fun part! Here is how you enter.

  1. Visit your local Hobby Lobby
  2. Find the Marriage After God book in the book rack
  3. Take a picture of the book on the shelf and post it to Instagram or Facebook
  4. Tag the photo with #hobbylobbyfinds & @marriageaftergod
  5. (Optional) Bonus entry, Buy a copy :)

We will pick and announce the winners on Friday, Aug 16th!

Aug 12, 2019
Some Creative Ways To Help You Get Out Of Debt

There are many reasons why you might want to make some side money. Getting out of debt was the reason we did. In this episode, we share with you some very unique and creative ways to make some extra cash today. We start off the episode with how the Bible teaches us to view money to get our minds and hearts in the right place.

Dear Lord,

Thank You for providing scripture about money, about how we should view it and how we should steward it. We pray we never have a love of money. We pray we would be wise in how we make our money, how we spend it and save it. We pray our finances would honor You. Help us to be united in marriage when it comes to money. Help us to communicate respectfully about money. In times that we are striving to make extra cash, we pray that You would guide us and show us what we should do. If any of the striving is in vain, please convict our hearts and redirect us. May the pursuit of money never be at the cost of our relationship with You, Lord, or with our families. Thank You for your provision, thank You for the opportunities we have to grow and thank You for the moments we get to share Your Gospel with others. We pray we would be a light in this world. In Jesus’ name, amen!

Aug 07, 2019
The Power Of Confession In Your Marriage & How To Do It.

The Bible tells us in James 5 to "confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working."

Confession is one of the most powerful gifts God has given us. It is by confession that we are saved. (Romans 10:10) It is by confession that we are healed. When we confess our sin we are saying that God is right and we are not. It is humbling our selves. It is the killing of our flesh just as Jesus tells us to take up our cross and follow him. But confession can be hard especially because it is exactly the opposite of what our flesh wants. Confess exposes our nakedness and our natural instinct is to protect that nakedness and to cover it up. But when we hide we allow our sins and wrong ways of thinking to live on instead of being cut away. In this episode, we talk all about the power of confession and how it can be done well in our marriages.

Jul 31, 2019
Can I Stay Married If It’s Not Making Me Happy?

On today's bonus episode, we are sharing our interview on the 4:13 podcast. Jennifer Rothschild digs in with us about what it looks like to learn to love even when we are not happy and how being obedient to God's way even when the feelings are fading can, in turn, bring the feelings back and make us stronger than ever.

Here is a little about Jennifer Rothschild and the 4:13 Podcast.

You’ll find practical encouragement and biblical insight to help you live the “I Can” life of Philippians 4:13 — “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.”

At the young age of 15, Jennifer was diagnosed with a rare, degenerative eye disease that would eventually steal her sight. It was more than a turning point, as her dreams of becoming a commercial artist and cartoonist faded while words and music replaced her canvas.

She is the author of 16 books and Bible studies, including the best-selling Lessons I Learned in the Dark and her most recent resource, the DVD-based Bible study Psalm 23: The Shepherd With Me (LifeWay). Jennifer is also the founder of Fresh Grounded Faith events for women.

Listen to the original episode & subscribe to her podcast today.

Jul 29, 2019
Date Night Ideas Are Fun

We all need a little inspiration every once in a while. Who am I kidding! We need it all the time lol. Here are some fun and creative date night ideas for you to try out with your spouse on your next date.


Also, If you are a parent like us, then you probably have questions and often feel like you would just love to ask someone who has been there before for some advice. Well, our really good friends Isaac & Angie Tolpin from the Courageous Parenting Podcast are the people we would send you to. They have 8 children and have been married for 20 years. They have a Biblical parenting mentor program to help you in your journey as a godly parent. Check them out today.

Jul 24, 2019
Tactics The Enemy Uses to Tear Down Our Marriages + A Discovery That Has Helped Our Marriage Thrive

We had the honor and privilege of being interviewed by our good friends Matt & Lisa Jacobson of the Faithful Life Podcast. Please enjoy this rebroadcast of their interview with us.

Listen to the original here:

Jul 22, 2019
The Story That Makes Us, Well, Us!

FREE EBOOK ALERT! We wanted to give away a fun and free resource to help you and your spouse go deeper on your date nights.

This episode of Marriage After God is reflection back on our first few years of marriage, including what we went through and how God saved us. We vulnerably share about pornography addiction, our experience with painful sex, a discovery that helped us heal, and much more.

Jul 17, 2019
Right When I was Ready To Give Up on My Wife, God Changed My Heart!

Download our FREE eBook and take your date nights to a new level!

Subscribe to the Naked Marriage Podcast Today.

Dave & Ashley Willis have become some of America's most trusted teachers on marriage. Their books, blogs, videos and speaking events have been reaching millions of couples worldwide. They are part of the MarriageToday team, which is the largest marriage-focused ministry in the USA.

Jul 15, 2019
For Those Who Have Some Fears About Their Family Growing

Download Our FREE 52 Date Night Conversations Starters eBook Today!!!!


  • Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God.

  • Helping you cultivate and extraordinary marriage.

  • And to day we're gonna be talking about fears of a growing family and how to combat them biblically.

  • Before we get started today, because this topic is kind of surrounded around growing family and having kids, I wanted to share that we do have resources for parents called 31 Prayers For My Son and For My Daughter, and these are great resources for you to pray over your children. They're 31 prayers in each book talking about different topics in the child's life and there's also journal pages that after each prayer you can just make it more personal and we've had some positive feedback about these resources. Parents are really loving them, so make sure you get a copy.

  • Yup.

  • Well first off I just wanna thank everyone for joining us today, listening. And we want to encourage you to grab your Bible so that as we go through scripture you can participate.

  • So the first thing we're gonna do before we start talking about these fears that a lot of us go through in our marriages as we start growing our family with children, is I just wanna go straight to scripture and read God's word about fear in our lives. And this is in Second Timothy. This is Paul talking to Timothy and encouraging him in his ministry. And he says, So I just wanna start off as we go into this idea of the fears that we all experience and explain that God has given us, just like He's given Timothy, just like Paul reminds Timothy, He hasn't given us a spirit of fear, but a spirit of love, power, and self-control. And then second verse I wanna start us off with is in Psalms 127 and I just wanna get a biblical, godly perspective on children. And in Psalm, the psamlist writes, So God's perspecive in this one verse, there's hundreds of verses that talk about who children are to us and to God, is that they're a heritage, that they're a blessing. That they're a weapon wielded in the hands of parents for his purposes.

  • I'm so glad that we started with those two verses 'cause I think above all else, it's so important to remember what God's perspective and heart is towards children. So as we move forward and navigate through these fears, how do we remember what God believes is true about growing family?

  • And as we always say to the Christian marriages out there, that we found our, a marriage after God founds their marriage on the Bible, on the word of God. We don't do it in our feelings, we don't operate in our opinions, we don't operate in our ideas. What we try and do to the best of our abilities through the spirit that God's put in us is we run to the word of God. So as we talk through these fears that we're dealing with right now, our way of dealing with them is the word of God. And so that's why we encourage you to have your Bible and as we go through these fears that we're gonna bring up right now, we're gonna try and find scripture to combat those fears.

  • So Aaron, you walked us through those two scriptures, which again were very powerful, and they're ones that I'm actually really familiar with, but how do we look at our lives and use those scriptures to encourage us in a practical way?

  • So the first practical thing, the Bible tells us to meditate on God's word. And that word, meditate, it comes from this idea of like a cow chewing cud. And it's like we chew it, we mull it over, and over, and over again, and we continue to bring it up and remind ourselves of it. And we go back to it over, and over, and over again. We don't just hear it one time and then all of a sudden, oh that's just into my heart and got it forever. That might happen in some cases, but for the most part, like for you, you have to be reminded.

  • Yeah.

  • Especially when you're going through hormone changes.

  • Yeah.

  • Because you're going through hormone changes and that can feel totally chaotic. And so instead of just trying to address the symptoms and like, well you need to change the way you're thinking, you need to, which is how I tend to approach you.

  • Sometimes.

  • Which is not always effective. But meditating on scripture. So when we're in those moments of the things that we're specifically going to talk about, we go back those scriptures and be like, well, I'm thinking this way and I feel this way but this is the truth. And I just need to remind myself of that, even though it doesn't feel like the truth.

  • That's good. So even having like maybe these scriptures written out on hand so that they're next to you bed stand or in the kitchen window, or some--

  • Or on our chalkboard right over there.

  • Or on a chalkboard, in your house somewhere. I think that would be really encouraging for those listening to know that a very practical way of being reminded of these scriptures is to just put them in front of you.

  • Yeah, have them on hand. Memorize them.

  • So one of the reasons why I really wanted to talk about this topic today, about fears of a growing family, is because this is exactly where we've been for the last month. I am right almost into the second trimester of our fourth baby.

  • Woohoo!

  • We're so excited about that. And I've just been wrestling with having some fears about our family getting a little bit bigger. And I don't know for those of you listening, if you guys have jumped in and had any kids yet, or maybe you're on two or three, maybe some of you are on six or seven, like some of our friends.

  • Yeah.

  • But I know that some of these fears that we're gonna talk about are super relatable and so hopefully it's encouraging for you to hear what we're gonna talk about today.

  • So why don't you share with us some fears that you're going through right now. Because, although we learn from scripture in second Timothy that we don't have a spirit of fear, when hormones rise up, when your body starts changing, when you start realizing the logistics of the day and you have an overwhelming morning you know, they come up. And it's our job to navigate that with God, so.

  • So yeah, a lot of the things that I've been wrestling with is feeling like, I can't handle it. I can't manage my home, or keep up with the demands of all of the dishes, or feeding everyone, or keeping up with the laundry. And just little things like that.

  • Getting all the crud off the floor after meals.

  • Yeah, from our youngest spilling food on the floor. Yeah so, having to meet all those demands of the day and then looking to our future and saying, and we're gonna have another baby being added to the picture and it just feels overwhelming. That's just one fear that I've been wrestling with.

  • So you're talking about not being to handle it. That just the demands of the day, of life.

  • Feeling exhausted emotionally, mentally, physically.

  • Which are real things because your body has limitations.

  • Especially when I'm pregnant again.

  • Exactly. And your home has limitations, and your time has limitations. The thing that I immediately thought of is acknowledging the weakness 'cause we all, moms out there, you look at any Instagram about moms--

  • We want to be superheroes.

  • Superheroes, like you're the superhero mom and you're like, oh my gosh she's got a beautiful Instagram feed, and her home's always perfect, and her kids are beautiful and wonderful and act perfectly all the time. And that's just not reality. I think you might have a expectation of yourself that isn't a real expectation, and since you can't live up to it, it hurts.

  • It does hurt.

  • And it breaks you, and it makes you feel more emotional and like a failure. So one thing that husbands can be doing is reminding your wives that they are great. And that the things you're doing are wonderful and you don't have to do everything perfectly. Another thing we should be doing as husbands is cultivating an environment in the home where we're helping. I can't help all the time because I have a job. Many husbands, they have full-time jobs and a lot of wives and moms might have jobs also. That might be adding to the stress also, but cultivating an environment where you know you're helped.

  • Yeah.

  • And I remember reminding you, this morning even when you were dealing with this, I said, "Babe, I'm here with you also." Like you don't need to feel like you have to do it on your own. But the weakness part of this, it reminds me of the scripture of when Paul, in Second Corinthians, is talking about a thorn that's been given to him in his side. It's either an ailment, or someone who's pestering him and we don't know exactly what it is, he never says exactly what it is. But Paul tells us the torment that this thorn is causing him and this is what God's word to him was about this weakness, in Second Corinthians, chapter 12, verse nine it says, And so, reminding ourselves of like it's okay to be weak. We're human. Weakness is a part of who we are. We're in this weak flesh that has cravings, and desires, and hormones, and brokenness. But we have a savior and we have a god that's given us His Holy Spirit that we can actually operate in His strength. And that actually, when we recognize our weakness and we humble ourselves, we actually can glorify Him and his strength. And Paul says, I'll boast all the more gladly in my weakness. So my wife can actually say you know, recognizing that I can't do all of this reminds me of my need for God and His peace, and His comfort, and that I need to run to Him. Because, did you run to Him in those times when you feel the most weak?

  • Not always.

  • Is that your first--

  • It's not usually my first--

  • No but, that's what God wants 'cause he wants us-- It's not my first thing ever. I usually go like my own strengths, and my own like, oh I'm gonna get some consulting, I'm gonna get-- I don't run to him first, I don't follow my faith and say, "Okay, Lord, I cannot do this today."

  • I feel like we continue to keep ourselves trying and striving for that ideal perfection or expectation that we've placed on ourselves that we don't slow down enough to do this, what you're saying.

  • Right, and that idea that we can recognize our own weaknesses and our own limitations. You remember a long time ago, on our road trip, or actually we were driving up to the mountains, and we were talking about just time, and strength, and energy.

  • I was telling you how frustrated I am because there's all these things that I wanna do and you told me--

  • And that was so long ago, and you're right back there.

  • I know.

  • But I explained, I said, being human, we're limited. We can only hold so much weight up. We can only speak so many words. We only have so many hours in a day. We can only stay awake so long. That if we want to accomplish something over here, then there inevitably will have to be other things that will have to be laid aside.

  • Yeah.

  • It's just the reality. So a good example of this is if we want to have, let's say you wanna stay quality time with all your kids. Right?

  • The dishes probably go--

  • There might have to be some dishes in the sink. And I'm gonna be honest personally, I would rather you spend some quality time with our kids.

  • I think that's really important to acknowledge real quick, just so that people listening can understand this. So understanding each other's expectations of what we're called to do in the home. So knowing that you're okay with dishes in the sink, helps me understand that I can spend that time with the kids and I don't have to rush to go do the dishes in order to please you. Like ultimately we need to understand--

  • Or please yourself, because you could easily see a clean house as the most important thing for the day, and drop the ball on the children. And then you still might feel like a failure at the end of the day.

  • Yeah.

  • You have a clean house, and kids that are vying for attention.

  • So I do want to encourage those listening that it's really important for a husband and wife to vision together, and to talk about expectations, and figure out what are priorities for your family.

  • And this brings me back again to a husband cultivating a safe environment in the home. If you come home from work and you're bothered that the dishes are dirty, yet your wife had spent all day with your children, and had taught them, and loved them, and fed them, and took care of them, and took them on trips, or did play dates, then you might need to--

  • You either let the dishes go, or clean them.

  • Or clean them. And that's kind of, or find a time to give her time to herself. If she likes to take care of the house, take the kids and you go spend time with the kids and let her have an hour or two to herself to do what she wants.

  • Yeah.

  • Like I know that sometimes you just wanna clean the house.

  • Yeah.

  • "Hey, Aaron, go play with the kids, I just wanna just clean."

  • Yeah, especially 'cause I like the way that I do it.

  • And since we're a team, I should be like, "Deal, I'll take the kids we're gonna go to the park, we're gonna go for a drive, we're gonna be gone. You won't hear from us." But husbands, cultivating an environment that's healthy and safe for your wife, the mother of your children, because is she feels like you expect her to be everything, perfect for you, perfect for her kids, perfect for your home, you're gonna break her. And this something I have to learn, and we also have to balance, but it also takes communication. You know, talking through these things.

  • And as we're talking about fears of growing family, when those conversations come up, where you guys are talking about maybe growing your family you need to be honest with yourselves and know that your wife might have fears of, well I can't do all the demands of the home if we bring another child into the world because I already can't do it.

  • Right, because like if you're a husband that is just absent, you get home, turn that TV on, get into your video games, hopefully you're not playing video games, but you just kinda check out when you get home and you expect dinner to be ready, and you just view your home time as your sanctuary time, and your wife just kinda keeps going 24/7, I wouldn't wanna have your kids either.

  • That's harsh, but--

  • I'm just being honest. But that's the kind of men we need to be.

  • If you wanna have a marriage after God and one that's free from fears of a growing family, I think it's really important to talk about expectations and to be a team when considering how it needs to be done when you do have little kids running around and you wanna spend that time with them or do things that are a priority in your family.

  • So you shared with us that you feel like you can't handle it, which is a totally normal and common feeling because of everything in life. What's something else that just wells up in you, just it's those emotions, those feelings, what else was coming up in you today?

  • So another one was that fear of missing out.

  • FOMO.

  • Yeah, FOMO.

  • I have that, all the time.

  • All the time, with friends and things--

  • With everything.

  • I have a fear of missing out with my children. The ones we already have. So we already have three and I see them growing up and every day I'm just amazed by them and I just feel like there's been certain seasons where I was either pregnant or had morning sickness where I did miss out a little bit. Post-partum with Wyatt, that was another one where I felt like I was missing out with Elliot and Olive a little bit. So I don't wanna miss anything in their lives. I just don't. And so one of my fears is if we have another child, what else am I gonna be missing with them that maybe I wouldn't have if we didn't have a growing family?

  • And that's a totally legitimate fear that people have. It's not unfounded, you just look at numbers, you look at time, we just talked about this, how we're limited creatures. We're not infinite, we're finite. But what we need to do is we need to change our perspective on things. That's what this whole video's about is perspective. If the perspective is, unless we can spend equal amount of time with every single child, then we're not gonna be giving them what they need, I think is inaccurate. And this is a personal opinion but I do feel like there's a level of-- You know, if that's the case, then let's just have one kid. Because they can get all of our love. But in reality, the love and the experience that we want our kids to have, our oldest, it's gonna be inevitable that he learns that the world doesn't revolve around him. It's inevitable that he's gonna learn that he has other responsibilities. So where you wanted to spend time with our oldest, Elliot, but you also wanna spend time with Olive, and Wyatt, and then the new baby, well Elliot needs to learn how to spend time with his siblings. And they need to learn how to have alone time and play well with each other.

  • This is true. One thing that I've been noticing lately in our relationship with our kids is we've been teaching them a lot about how to walk in the Spirit and they're free to the Spirit and so it is having siblings does give them the opportunity to learn compassion, and learn kindness, and learn sharing, and gentleness, and love, and all of that.

  • Well, and responsibility.

  • Responsibility. How they participate in the family.

  • We can easily recognize just the spiritual state of our son that he does feel like he's not getting as much as he used to from us, as much attention. So a couple of things happen. We can recognize that and make sure that we're a being extra intentional with him, right? Which we do, and we try to do, and sometimes we drop the ball of course. But then we can also find other ways of redirecting, 'cause he's craving attention from us but usually that's a craving that God's wanting, right? And so we can slowly start teaching him about that desire that he has for that relationship, and that he's not gonna always get it from us, and that Mom isn't the only person to get energy from, and all those feelings met, and those needs met. Because what's gonna happen is one, two, three, four, five kids, however many kid we have, if every single one of them think that they're owed that same exact amount of attention from you, what are we teaching them? And can you possibly ever fulfill that?

  • No, and we're essentially teaching them to have that same perspective toward God. They're gonna expect you know, that--

  • Yeah, they're gonna look at Joe over here--

  • That same perspective of God owes me this or that.

  • Yeah, or they'll look at this, oh, so and so has been given so much and they have this ministry, and like He hasn't given me that. And that's just the wrong perspective. The Bible actually tells us that the entire body is knit together as one unit. And then it says that the lesser parts of the body are glorified, and the greater parts of the body are brought low for the sake of equality. So giving him a perspective that he actually can't get everything he wants from Mom, he has to understand that. And he actually can start, instead of wanting to just take from Mom, he can actually learn how to give to his siblings. And so we're teaching him responsibilities in the house. So instead of just going to Mom and being, "Mom, Mom, Mom can you just spend all the time with me," we're like, "Actually, Elliot, we need your help. Can you go put trash bags in the trash can? Can you go vacuum the floor? Can you go--"

  • And you gotta be able to trust your kids because Elliot's been stepping up and doing great. And every time we ask him, you know require something of him he's been fulfilling that. So it's been great to see the maturity in him excel.

  • It's amazing actually, he puts the trash bags in every time I ask perfectly.

  • One thing that you did mention when I shared this fear with you was the reality that we will miss out. Even it if was just one kid. There are gonna be times that we miss out which means the time we are present we need to be so intentional, and that really meant a lot to me.

  • Which is true. Again, the same way we recognize we are weak and that makes God more strong in our life. The other thing we recognize is we are gonna miss out. We can't control everything, we can't have everything and we have to be okay with that. We have to be okay that Dad's gone a lot of the day, but when I'm home, I should not be gone at home.

  • Even if that means on the couch, on your phone. You should be present, you should be engaged.

  • Which is something that the Lord convicts of me every single day. I'm trying really hard to not be on my phone in front of my kids 'cause I want them to know that they have my eyes when I'm here. But then there's also times when I'm around that I have to say, "Daddy's busy, and you need to go play quietly. You need to color, you need to--." So just understanding that we cannot be everything in all things to our children. We have to recognize where we're at.

  • That's good.

  • And that missing out is a part of life. And that's gotta be okay. I know it doesn't feel good, but it's gotta be okay.

  • Yeah.

  • So why don't you share this one more fear that you are currently dealing with know that we're about to have four kids.

  • I don't know if everyone can relate to this but it's just that fear of losing my personal time. The time that I like to pour into things I'm passionate about. One of them spending time with the Lord. You know, I feel like with each kid I have to really fight for that time. Or working in blogging, you know. I feel like I have to really--

  • Or time with your girlfriends.

  • Or time with my girlfriends. Just going to get a cup of coffee, you know, and sharing that time with either myself, or with a girlfriend. I feel like the thought of bringing another child would mean now I gotta find someone that could babysit four kids you know if I wanna go on date night with you, right?

  • That's $5 a kid, that's two to four hours--

  • It's a lot. So, being conflicted with am I gonna lose more me time. And I know that's really selfish, but it does come up.

  • But it's real.

  • Yeah.

  • You know so, I'm gonna keep going back to this, 'cause it's a balance of like, it'd be easy just to tell you like, "Well, you just gotta get over it, 'cause that's selfish." But the other side of it is, the Bible tells us husbands to walk with our wives in an understanding way. And it tells us to love you as Christ loves the Church. And it tells us to serve you, and to honor you, and hold you up in honor. So on one hand, recognizing selfishness.

  • Yeah.

  • Recognizing like, well like this is my lot in life. This is what God's given me. I've children to raise to know Him.

  • And having a positive perspective about that.

  • And having a positive perspective, having a biblical perspective knowing that our jobs as Mom and Dad is to raise children that know and love the Lord.

  • Which is a super powerful purpose.

  • It's the most powerful purpose. That our kids will actually go to Heaven.

  • Yeah.

  • Right? But on top of that, how can I, how can you as a husband, cultivate an environment for you to thrive in that? Not that you just hold all the weight of everything because remember, the Bible tells us that you are the weaker vessel and that I need to recognize that and be like, I can't just put everything I want on top of my wife and expect her to hold it all up. That's my job. I should hold everything up, right? So knowing that if I want you to just love your role as a mother, I'm gonna give you time to yourself. Do I ever do that for you?

  • Yeah, I was just gonna say I feel like you've been really great at--

  • This pregnancy. This pregnancy, I've been really good at it.

  • You've been learning with each one, but you do recognize a lot faster now when I'm kind of reaching that breaking point, or need a breath of fresh air. Just the other day you came home for lunch and you were like, "Hey, you wanna go take lunch by yourself?" And it felt really awkward saying yes 'cause I thought to myself, I'm not gonna go sit in a restaurant by myself, but I did it, and it was great. It was so refreshing.

  • She came back, like kicked the door open, she's like, "Hey, kids, let's go do something."

  • I missed my kids. And so it refreshed that positive perspective.

  • Recharged you, gave you a new perspective. So, on one hand, yes we need to recognize that it's a self dying that happens every day. Not just in our child rearing, raising children.

  • And be okay with that, embrace it, and accept that responsibility from God.

  • On the mother's part. But on the husband's part is a self dying also that I would lay down my life for my wife and say, "You know what, I don't want to sacrifice my time, I'm going to though. Because I want you to feel energy and recharged." And also, husbands, dads out there, it's our jobs to be leading our families spiritually. Are you giving time for your wife to go and recharge in the word of God?

  • So important.

  • With no kids around? Not in the bathroom when she's on the toilet and the kids are trying to come in. This is like serious, do you like, "Hey, Babe, go and just spend an hour or two in the Word." And of course that can't happen every day, there's logistics in life, but is it on your mind? Are you saying, man I need to figure out a way to get my wife to just some her time. And that's you dying to yourself, and your desires, and lifting her up. So it's not just, "Well you need to get a right perspective, Hun. You need to just tough it out." Which she does. I do. But you need to tough it out too, men. You need to lay down your life and say, "Well, I need to make sure that my wife feels loved, cherished. I need to make sure that she has time for herself so that she can get regenerated, have a bath." Like, how often am I like, "Go take a bath."

  • Yup.

  • It doesn't happen all the time, but once a week maybe I just, I'll draw a bath for you. I'll give you a bath bomb, I'll put some essential oils on.

  • Sometimes music.

  • Yeah, I'll put some music on, and I put the kids to bed, and it's just her time. So that she can get her mind rested. And her spirit rested, and that's what we need to be doing. This is what a marriage after God looks like. It's not just all on my wife.

  • It's teamwork.

  • If you look at almost every scripture in the Bible about children, it's always tied to the fathers. So that should tell you how much weight should be on you as a father. That you are teaching your children, that you are discipling your children, that you are responsible for your children. That you don't just leave and say, "Oh, my wife's gonna take care of it. My wife's gonna read the Bible to them. My wife's gonna teach them the word of God."

  • I will say if you assume that position and you put that weight on your wife, her fears will mount. Like she will have so many more fears.

  • And those will be legitimate fears. 'Cause she is doing it on her own and she has a husband that's absent. And you don't wanna be that husband. You're not that husband.

  • And because she'll be so drowning in her own fears that it'll probably stimulate fears to grow inside you. Oh, is my marriage not gonna work out. Or are we not gonna ever have intimacy because she's too tired to, you know what I mean. So like it starts spiraling to of control when there's not a team action.

  • Yeah. So I hope this encourages you today. We're gonna read a couple scriptures to close out.

  • As we're talking about fears today there was a specific scripture that was on my hear that I really wanted to encourage specifically the moms with, but dads too. Listen up, it's in Psalm 34, verse four. It says, Now when you are acting out of fears or you're spiraling in your mind, kind of out of control because of these fears that you have and you're motivated by your fears, you're not going to the Lord. Everything that you do in that moment is based off of what you believe to be true, which are the lies and the fears that you're struggling with, and it's just gonna get worse if you do not seek out the Lord. And I've experienced this first hand. I had a almost total meltdown today because I was so emotional over these fears that we just talked about. And so it's really important that we seek after the Lord and that we come back to His perspective and what His truth is for our life and family.

  • So we walked through a bunch of fears, this is reality for us. It's something that we're gonna have to daily go through and we're gonna be running to the scriptures. I'm gonna be taking on my role as a spiritual leader in the home to encourage you, inspire you, remind you of the truth so that you can walk in it.

  • And I think it's really important for me to clearly communicate to you when I am having these fears, when they are coming up in my heart because if I'm operating in them and letting them spiral in my mind, and I'm not confronting them or talking to you about them, then things are just gonna haywire in or whole family.

  • And then we start feeling crazy.

  • Yeah.

  • So we just wanna thank you for watching today and we just pray that this message just encourages you if any of you are going through this right now and walking through fears of a growing family. And so if you enjoyed this video, please hit the subscribe button and also hit the bell next to it so you get notified every time we upload a video.

  • And please leave us a comment. Let us know if you are planning on growing your family, 'cause we'd love to be excited and praise God with you.

  • Thank you, we'll see you guys next time. Did you enjoy today's show? Find many more encouraging stories and resources at and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Jul 10, 2019
Called to be the Spiritual leader... but what does that look like?

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Jul 08, 2019
Does God Have A Calling For My Marriage? + FREE 52 Date Night Conversations Starters Download

What is God's Calling for your marriage? Listen to today's episode and find out :)

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Aaron Smith: We're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God ...

Jennifer Smith: ... helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Aaron Smith: Today we're going to be talking about God's calling for your marriage. Lots of people think they have a calling, or don't know what their calling might be, but we believe that there are six callings that every Christian marriage has, and we're here to share them with you.

Jennifer Smith: So, Aaron, before we get started, can you just explain a little bit about what does it mean to have a calling? What does it mean when you hear the word I have a calling on my marriage? Like, so people understand what we're saying.

Aaron Smith: Just growing up in the church, we've all heard this idea of our calling, and a lot of times it's our individual calling, like what's God called ... ? Am I a missionary? Am I going to be starting a church? Am I going to be a pastor? Am I going to be a worship leader? There's all these finite things that people might feel called to. But when it comes to our marriage, do we believe our marriage has a calling? And we believe every marriage has a specific calling-

Jennifer Smith: A specific purpose-

Aaron Smith: ... a specific purpose-

Jennifer Smith: ... that God's going to use them for.

Aaron Smith: Yeah, based in their unique giftings, talents, position in life, that God wants to use in those marriages, for his purposes. But that might be vague for some people, and some marriages might be thinking, "Well, what's my purpose?" So what we thought we'd do is sit down and share with you six callings that we believe every Christian marriage is called to. These are callings that God has for your marriage today, whether you know what the specific calling is from God, and in the ministry that God has for your marriage as a couple, these callings are for every Christian marriage.

Aaron Smith: There's more than this, but we picked out the six that we love the most and that we've kind of walked through in our life. So this gives you a place to start in marriage and say, "Okay, God already has a calling for us. We don't have to guess or we don't have to pretend we don't know or not know how to figure out where to get that calling." You can actually start today and say, "Oh, this is ... at least we know these callings, that God has for us."

Jennifer Smith: That's really cool. I'm so excited to jump in. I just want to encourage you listening, if you, as we go through each six, if you could just take evaluation of your marriage and see if you guys are already fulfilling these callings in your life, or if you're not, if these are areas that you're wrestling with or struggling with, then hopefully our encouragement today will help you step up in those areas.

Aaron Smith: Yeah, and you can let us know in the comments what areas that you think you've already been walking in, you're like, "Oh," and you never saw them as callings. Or you can let us know areas that you didn't recognize, that you needed to be walking in. Let us know in the comments. We like to read through those.

Aaron Smith: So let's get started. We're going to start. We have six of them. The first calling that every Christian marriage has is to prayer, and this could be together or separate. It should eventually be together, but some of you might not be able to do that.

Aaron Smith: But let me read the verse that goes with this. Philippians 4:6-7, and it says, "Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to god. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."

Aaron Smith: Every marriage, every Christian marriage, has a calling to pray, and that seems easy. It seems like the easy Bible answer, but I want to talk a little bit about this, real quick, from our own life, and I have a question for you. How would say prayer has played a role in our marriage?

Jennifer Smith: Well, I would say it was significant in saving our marriage, for sure. We started out in our relationship with praying for each other and praying for the purpose that God had for our marriage.

Aaron Smith: We prayed every night during our dating years.

Jennifer Smith: Yeah, and throughout our engagement.

Aaron Smith: Yeah.

Jennifer Smith: And then even through our marriage, and when we hit that hard spot in our marriage, when we were contemplating divorce and just were both really isolated from each other-

Aaron Smith: And broken and frustrated, yeah.

Jennifer Smith: ... and broken, you were really adamant about prayer. So every night, you were still praying for us. My heart was a little bit harder towards God and I was really frustrated and wrestling with the issues that we were facing, but you were faithful to prayer and-

Aaron Smith: Which was hard. For all the husbands watching, my prayers started off very hopeful in the first few years of my marriage, and eventually got very angry and bitter, but I still prayed because I had that foundation in my heart, and I was like, "No, this is the only way I see us getting healing," and so I kept praying. You actually got to a point where you stopped praying.

Jennifer Smith: Yeah, we used to pray together every night, and then slowly I just kind of faded out and listened to your payers, still participated but didn't pray as much.

Aaron Smith: Right.

Jennifer Smith: But I will say that your faithfulness in praying every night really helped me to embrace God and come back to him, to turn my heart back to him, and to trust him because I knew that you trusted Him. So that did play a big role in saving our marriage.

Aaron Smith: Yeah, so prayer's a little ominous for a lot of Christians, which it shouldn't be, but there's no classes on prayer. I know some churches probably have that, but it's not like a ... We just assume, like, "Oh, prayer's supposed to be easy to us." You know, what would you say are some ... ? Is prayer just talking to God? Is it like you have the right words and you have ... you bring in scripture at the right time in the prayer? Is there any ... ? Like, how does it look in our marriage? What does prayer look like for us?

Jennifer Smith: Well, how I've always viewed it is it's just our way of communicating with God, so it's basically opening up our hearts and just sharing what's on our hearts and what's on our minds, and sharing it with God. What's really cool about what I've experienced through praying with you, is that not only are we submitting everything to God and asking for his guidance in our relationship, but every once in a while there's a compliment in there about me when you're praying, and thanking God for me, and-

Aaron Smith: Well, when you hear me pray for you, you actually hear my heart for you.

Jennifer Smith: Yeah, exactly. I get to hear your heart for me, and that affirms me, and it affirms my relationship with you, so that's been a huge encouragement. But I think that people can get really overwhelmed when they think about prayer and going to God and overthinking it.

Aaron Smith: Right.

Jennifer Smith: You know, feeling like it has to be done perfectly, and it doesn't.

Aaron Smith: So you're saying that the couples that are watching now could start today?

Jennifer Smith: They can start today.

Aaron Smith: They can just say, "Okay, Lord, I don't know what I'm saying to you, but I want help," or, "Thank you," and it could be as simple as that.

Jennifer Smith: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Aaron Smith: Yeah, so we encourage you. So the first calling that every Christian marriage has is to prayer, and this means together. Some of you might be married and your spouse, your husband or your wife is not a believer, or is where my wife was, in a place where she's kind of angry or bitter, or they're angry or bitter. You can still pray without them, for them, and with them, and over them.

Aaron Smith: So don't let a disunity keep you from prayer because you have a unity with Christ. And Christ, as our mediator, gives us direct access to the throne of God, that we can actually open up our hearts and we can pray directly to God. We don't need a high priest anymore because we have Christ, who is our perfect high priest.

Aaron Smith: So we just want to encourage you today. You can actually start praying today, whether together or individually. Start praying today.

Jennifer Smith: Yeah, and if you're doing it individually, which is great, every once in a while, invite your spouse to pray with you, or say, "Hey, I'd love to pray for you. Can you give me a list? Can you give me like five things that I can really focus on." I know that that's super helpful.

Aaron Smith: And I know it'll totally bless them, too.

Jennifer Smith: Yeah.

Aaron Smith: I just want to bring this quote up, that our pastor always says to us, "Prayer isn't preparation for the battle, prayer is the battle." So we don't look at prayer as, like, well, that's a supplementary thing that we do for our faith, or it's something that we do only when it's really bad. Prayer is the battle, and we're in a spiritual warfare every day, against our own flesh, against the enemies in the world and in the spirit.

Aaron Smith: And so prayer, we need to go to battle on our knees in prayer, in praying for the things that we care about, and praying for the things that we are concerned about, and going to our Father and saying, "Lord, we need your mind on this, we need your heart on this, we need your help on this."

Aaron Smith: So prayer is the first calling that every Christian marriage has. Okay, so what's the next calling that every Christian marriage has?

Jennifer Smith: Okay, so the next one is love, and I want to share a scripture but it's probably not the one you're thinking. Most people go straight to 1 Corinthians, chapter 13, which defines what love is, which is great, but today I'm going to share Matthew 22:37-40, which says, "And he said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: you shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.'"

Jennifer Smith: So contrary to how culture will tell us that love is a feeling and love is something that we ...

Aaron Smith: Fall into.

Jennifer Smith: ... fall into, God is saying that love is a command. He commands us to love him, and he commands us to love our neighbor, or in this case, in regards to marriage, our spouse.

Aaron Smith: Yeah, and so for all the marriages out there, your calling, our calling is to love. Not just love each other, because it says love your neighbor as yourself, that's the second and greatest commandment. Because my wife is my closest neighbor, I am her closest neighbor, we practice loving our neighbors by loving each other well.

Aaron Smith: And then the second part of this is that, as a couple, we love the Lord with all of our hearts, minds, soul and strength. So if you're sitting out there, wondering what your calling in life is, this is a amazing calling, is to love each other well and to love God.

Jennifer Smith: Yeah, and I just want to share that, because of the way our culture is very self focused, especially in marriage, we can get caught up in thinking that, "I can't love you right now because you're not loving me," and that can just cause a crazy cycle to happen. I know we've experienced it before.

Aaron Smith: Yeah. In the beginning of our marriage, because I wasn't living up to the high expectations you had for me, you would just withhold all of your love. You would-

Jennifer Smith: Yeah, so I would get really frustrated because I-

Aaron Smith: You would tell me.

Jennifer Smith: Yeah. I had all these expectations of romantic love and these grand gestures of you showing me love-

Aaron Smith: Right.

Jennifer Smith: ... and I relied on you to initiate all of that. And when you didn't do it, I didn't want to do it.

Aaron Smith: And you wouldn't initiate it, because you were expecting, like, that's what my husband does. He's going to pursue me and he's going to do all the loving. And I'm sitting over there thinking, like, my wife's not even pursuing me, why would I give her love?

Aaron Smith: Now, we were both wrong because we both were commanded to love each other. I was commanded more specifically from Ephesians 5:23, I am supposed to love you, but we're supposed to walk in love the way the Bible tells us to.

Jennifer Smith: Right.

Aaron Smith: So we were totally dropping the ball on that calling in our life, and it's only been the last three, four years that we've been learning to actually walk in that calling for us.

Jennifer Smith: In that command.

Aaron Smith: And what happens when you start walking in that calling, just with each other, as most areas of marriage, in a Christian marriage, we start loving each other more biblically and more authentically and we start pursuing each other more. So what happens is we have extra in us to ...

Jennifer Smith: ... love others.

Aaron Smith: So then we can actually, instead of you just always constantly thinking, "I'm not getting what I need," you have more than enough and you actually have the energy, I have the energy and the love available, to be able to sit and love our other neighbors.

Jennifer Smith: Right.

Aaron Smith: Our friends, our family. So that's where that calling gets even wider-

Jennifer Smith: Yeah.

Aaron Smith: ... is showing that love to the world, so ...

Jennifer Smith: There was a turning point in our marriage, where I felt like we really began to understand God's command on love, but also the way that he set the example for unconditional love-

Aaron Smith: Right.

Jennifer Smith: ... and I wanted you to share a little bit about your vision of being with Jesus in the garden, just a really brief version.

Aaron Smith: So, just really briefly, when we were at our breaking point in our marriage, I felt the Lord bring me a vision of Jesus being in the Garden of Gethsemane before he goes to the cross. I remember God showing me Jesus weeping and, as it were, great tears of blood because he was so anguished over what he was about to go through.

Aaron Smith: We've all heard the story, we know exactly what it's about and we understand it, but I felt like God showed me a new perspective on it, and he was saying like ... because in the garden, Jesus three times said, "Lord, let this cup pass for me," the cup of wrath, essentially, is what he's saying.

Jennifer Smith: He knew what he was about to do, and he knew who he was doing it for.

Aaron Smith: Yeah, who was he doing it for? His bride. So, essentially, what he was saying is, "Lord, I don't want to die for my bride, because this is too painful."

Jennifer Smith: Especially knowing that part of his bride would reject him, or not-

Aaron Smith: Or spit on him.

Jennifer Smith: ... want him, yeah.

Aaron Smith: Or turn away from him. Instead of what he wanted, in his flesh ... because his flesh was saying, "I don't want to do this," ... his spirit submitted to the Lord in his will for her. He said not my will be done, but your will be done.

Jennifer Smith: And he did it.

Aaron Smith: And so he went to the cross anyway, for a broken and filthy bride, an adulteress bride, knowing that that was what God's will for him was, and that's how he was going to love us.

Jennifer Smith: So here you are, already married to me, three years in ...

Aaron Smith: Yeah, and I feel like I had a choice, but the choice was this, was, in my flesh I was saying, "Lord, I can't do this," and God was saying, "Sure, you can, because Jesus did it."

Jennifer Smith: Not your will, but mine.

Aaron Smith: Not your will, but my will be done. So God's will is that I would love my wife anyway. If my wife never gave me what I feel like I deserve or what she's supposed to give me, I should be able to love her, still, through the Holy Spirit.

Jennifer Smith: We were in church, it had just gotten out so people were scurrying all over the place, and we were just standing in the middle of the sanctuary and you were crying, telling me all of this and-

Aaron Smith: I had something in my eye.

Jennifer Smith: Yeah, sure.

Aaron Smith: I wasn't crying.

Jennifer Smith: But right there, we committed to walking, as Jesus walked, in unconditional love for each other, regardless-

Aaron Smith: If nothing ever changed-

Jennifer Smith: Yeah.

Aaron Smith: ... in our physical issues that we were having.

Jennifer Smith: Yeah.

Aaron Smith: And you know what changed?

Jennifer Smith: Our hearts.

Aaron Smith: Everything.

Jennifer Smith: Yeah, everything changed.

Aaron Smith: Our hearts changed and our hearts melted. The Bible calls our hearts stone and he takes our hearts of stone and he turns them to hearts of flesh. I feel like that's what he did, in that moment, was turn my heart from a heart of stone, and your heart from a heart of stone, to a heart of flesh. That's the power of the calling of love in our life.

Jennifer Smith: Exactly, and our obedience to this command is not reliant upon what other people are doing, especially your spouse. So our encouragement to you guys today is to love anyways, and to love unconditionally, and to let-

Aaron Smith: It's your calling.

Jennifer Smith: Yeah, it's your calling.

Aaron Smith: Yeah. So let's move onto the third calling. We have three more after this. So the third calling that every Christian marriage has is to forgive. This is a hard one. I'm going to read the scripture, it's Colossians 3:13. There's lots of scriptures on forgiveness. I'm not going to even read the harder ones. I'm just going to read this one.

Aaron Smith: So Colossians 3:13 says this, "Bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive." So just like that last command to love, forgiveness is a command. Forgiveness is not an option for the believer, especially in marriage. We don't get to choose not to forgive. We don't get to say, "Well, my wife wronged me so badly that I don't have to forgive her."

Aaron Smith: Well, it's actually a command to forgive, and I always tell myself ... because when we were going through what we were going through, I felt like I didn't have to forgive you, and there was a lot of things that I did, that you just held onto, and you're like, "I can't forgive you for that."

Jennifer Smith: I didn't want to forgive you, no.

Aaron Smith: You didn't want to forgive me. And you know what the Lord showed me? Showed us? Who are we to hold forgiveness against anyone? For what God forgave me of, and the patience that God had with me, how dare I withhold forgiveness from anyone? Especially my bride, who is one with me. So technically, if I withhold forgiveness from my bride, I'm withholding forgiveness from myself because she is me and I am her. But we did this. It was so destructive. It was not a oneness, it was complete disorder.

Aaron Smith: And just think about this, the calling in your life to forgive your spouse, you have nothing else in you to withhold against your spouse that you did not do to Christ, himself. Now, when Christ died on the cross, he forgave all sin, just like that. The thing that he was praying that he could have the cup passed for him, he did anyway. He drank that cup, every last drop of it, the cup of the wrath that we deserved.

Aaron Smith: That doesn't mean we don't repent. It doesn't mean that things that happen to us don't actually hurt us, and that it doesn't take time to learn to trust again, and that it doesn't take time to figure out how to walk with each other and get back into oneness and unity, but that does not mean we get to not forgive. So if you're wondering what your calling is in your marriage, as a marriage, it's forgiveness, towards each other and towards others.

Aaron Smith: So I have a question, has it been easy for you to forgive me?

Jennifer Smith: Not in the beginning. There's definitely been times where forgiveness was too painful to accept in my heart.

Aaron Smith: I just thought of something. What was it that you were afraid it would mean, if you forgave me? Remember, there was something you used to say?

Jennifer Smith: Do we want to say what, specifically, we're talking about, in regards to-

Aaron Smith: No.

Jennifer Smith: Okay.

Aaron Smith: There was a reason you withheld forgiveness, and you were afraid of me not changing. You were afraid of, like, if you forgave me ...

Jennifer Smith: Then you would just have the freedom to do it again, or ...

Aaron Smith: Right, and so you would withhold that forgiveness because you used it as a tool to control the situation.

Jennifer Smith: Well, I wanted you hurt like I was hurting.

Aaron Smith: Exactly.

Jennifer Smith: I thought if I withheld forgiveness, then you would feel the pain of not being reconciled.

Aaron Smith: Right. So you were breaking this command in your heart because you thought that you had the right to, because of what I did, but in reality we don't, right?

Jennifer Smith: Yeah, we don't.

Aaron Smith: We don't have the right to withhold forgiveness from anyone. There's another verse that's terrifying, and we'll put it in the comments, in the description below, but it essentially says if you don't forgive ...

Jennifer Smith: Your Father won't forgive you.

Aaron Smith: And that is terrifying.

Jennifer Smith: Yeah.

Aaron Smith: So this third calling for every Christian marriage is to walk in forgiveness.

Jennifer Smith: And to encourage you, what I've experienced with us is the more you practice forgiveness, and your heart is motivated toward reconciliation, the easier it becomes, because you have this bigger picture of what it means to forgive and why it's so valuable for oneness in marriage.

Aaron Smith: Right. So why don't we move onto the fourth calling that every Christian marriage has?

Jennifer Smith: So the fourth one is trust, and I feel like it goes hand in hand with forgiveness, because in order to trust again, you have to be able to forgive-

Aaron Smith: It's true.

Jennifer Smith: ... and reconcile, and experience oneness and intimacy again. But I know that for a lot of marriages, trust is a big issue, and it's really hard once you've been sinned against or hurt, to extend that trust and rebuild it again.

Aaron Smith: Yeah, and so I would encourage one thing, is this is not a calling to just blindly trust. When I would wrong you, in things that I was walking in, right, and I broke your trust, your calling wasn't to just be like, "Well, I'm just going to trust you again." Your calling was to forgive me, and your calling was to reconcile with me, and to walk with me as we grow towards oneness again and heal, right.

Jennifer Smith: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Aaron Smith: But what were you supposed to trust in, in that season?

Jennifer Smith: No matter what, I was supposed to trust God.

Aaron Smith: With what?

Jennifer Smith: With my heart, and with you. That he was working in your life-

Aaron Smith: Right.

Jennifer Smith: ... and that he was there to help us.

Aaron Smith: And that was actually hard for you, because the first four and a half years of our marriage, you didn't trust God.

Jennifer Smith: No, it was definitely a learning curve.

Aaron Smith: So it was impossible for you to trust me. I mean, I didn't give her a reason to trust me, but you didn't trust God, you didn't trust me, you didn't even trust your own emotions.

Jennifer Smith: I think that's why I felt so lonely and I felt so ...

Aaron Smith: Right.

Jennifer Smith: I just felt so alone in what we were facing as a couple, because I felt like I wasn't connected with you, and then I felt disconnected from God, so there was a lot of mistrust, and not having that really hindered my ability to experience intimacy with both of you.

Aaron Smith: And trusting God, with your spouse, puts you on the right path of the spirit of God, helping you trust again. Because as you see God work in your spouse as you pray, and as you forgive, you start seeing the transformations and you say, "Okay, Lord, I can trust you. I can trust my spouse with you, I can trust me with you, and I can trust my marriage with you. And so I'm just going to walk in the things that you've asked me to because I trust you, Father."

Jennifer Smith: And a foundational verse for trust, and especially trusting God, is Proverbs 3:5-6. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him and he will make straight your paths."

Jennifer Smith: And I had to lean on this verse, especially in regards to our marriage, because I felt like I had all this understanding of what I should do as a wife, and how I should respond to my husband, but I couldn't lean on my own understanding. Every time I was faced with this verse, I had to remind myself, I can't do that.

Aaron Smith: Right.

Jennifer Smith: I need to be able trust God and-

Aaron Smith: Well, and your understanding kept you from being able to trust me, and kept you from trusting God because you're like, "I just don't understand-"

Jennifer Smith: Yeah, and kept me from reconciling with you-

Aaron Smith: Right.

Jennifer Smith: ... because my understanding lacked ...

Aaron Smith: The spirit of God.

Jennifer Smith: ... the spirit of God.

Aaron Smith: Yeah.

Jennifer Smith: It really did. It was selfish.

Aaron Smith: Yeah, right.

Jennifer Smith: It was very selfish. I was trying to preserve myself and protect myself, instead of re-engaging with you and trusting that God was going to walk us ... bring us to a better place.

Aaron Smith: Well, and going into the word of God and into prayer, and actually battling for me and being my helper, because you were just thinking, like, "No, I've been hurt, so I'm not going to try."

Jennifer Smith: Yeah. There's this picture that I see when I think about trust in a marriage relationship and I hope that this encourages you guys, but it's this idea of all the walls in a person's heart, that we've built up over time. Every brick that is placed to build that wall will keep your spouse out of your heart. The whole idea of oneness is to understand each other and to know each other intimately, and you can't do that unless you bring those walls down, so this picture of taking these bricks down from these walls in your heart and building a bridge to close that gap and to allow connectedness, bring you guys together.

Aaron Smith: Right. Which could take a lifetime, to break those walls down, but through the Holy Spirit, could happen overnight.

Jennifer Smith: True.

Aaron Smith: So we just, we encourage you guys, in your marriage, to take up that calling of trust, and trusting God with your spouse and your marriage, and seeking his word on how you should live, and how you should be, and how you should act towards each other and towards outsiders, and walk in that, and you'll see what will happen. You'll see, like, what we've experienced is freedom.

Jennifer Smith: Yeah.

Aaron Smith: Freedom from the bondages of our own desires, our own misunderstandings, our own-

Jennifer Smith: Sin.

Aaron Smith: ... sin. Which brings us to the fifth calling for your marriage, and it is purity. In Hebrews 13, verse 4, it says, "Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous."

Aaron Smith: I did not do this. I totally broke unity with my wife, often. I had dealt with pornography my entire life. I thought marriage would fix it, and it didn't, of course. I'm sure a lot of you out there, that are watching this, could understand this, but I walked, actually, worse in it during the first few years of our marriage, and that, by itself, broke unity, spiritually unprotected you and us, brought in all sorts of filth into our home, brought in filth into my mind, made me see my wife in a broken way. It encouraged you to have lack of trust with me, rightfully. It made it hard for you to forgive me, rightfully.

Jennifer Smith: Made me not want to be with you, physically.

Aaron Smith: It made you not want to pray with me.

Jennifer Smith: Made [crosstalk 00:24:43].

Aaron Smith: So all the things that we've been talking about, that are callings in our life, my daily decisions hindered from making it easy and possible for us to do. That doesn't mean that they're not callings, still, for us, but my own impurity, my own walking in filth, my porn addiction-

Jennifer Smith: Hindered all those other callings.

Aaron Smith: ... hindered all of those other callings, which, when we're walking in that sort of sin ... and I know there's a lot of marriages watching this that are dealing with that, either both or one of the spouses is dealing with pornography on a daily basis, is walking in this unrepentant sin ... and it literally is going to not just bring death to your home, because the Bible tells us that our sin will find us out, and sin leads to death when it's full-grown. And we had spiritual death in our marriage. Praise God that he was patient with us and kind to us and extended grace and mercy, and I just always think about his patience because of how long I was walking in that, and how he didn't just destroy us, because he totally could have.

Jennifer Smith: Yeah.

Aaron Smith: And it almost did destroy our marriage.

Aaron Smith: But purity, and walking in all these other things, make our marriages into a ministry. But when we're not walking in purity, we have zero authority. I had no authority to lead my wife. I had no authority to lead myself. I couldn't sit with another brother in Christ and say, "Hey, let me encourage you. Let me walk you through this," because I was completely walking in unrepentant sin.

Aaron Smith: I thought I was repenting, but the fact that I just kept going back to it without having an actual change in my heart, without having an actual understanding of what I was saying yes to ... I was completely destroying our marriage, and that is a calling for your marriage as much as it's a calling for our marriage. This isn't unique to some marriages. Your marriage is called to purity, husband and wife.

Aaron Smith: So I'm talking about my own impurity that I struggled with, with pornography on the internet. What areas of purity did you struggle with, that you didn't recognize in the time, and to be honest, I wasn't even able to bring up to you because of my own sin, but I was able to bring up to you after I started walking in purity.

Jennifer Smith: Well, the first thing I want to just share very vulnerably is that I also had my own struggle with pornography for a season. I'm sharing that because I know that there's wives listening, and it can be so hard to confront and admit that you're wrestling with this. Once you confess that sin and repent of it, you will find so much freedom. You need to deal with it, but one of the other major impurities in my life was hiding the fact that I had a problem with food and using it whenever I was emotional, whenever I felt down or defeated, whenever I had a craving. I was so selfish with my desires for it and used it as a crutch.

Jennifer Smith: Anytime we were facing discord or disunity, I went to sugar, you know, anything that would make me feel better. I knew that I was living in an unhealthy way and I kept that from you because I didn't want you to point the finger at me, or challenge me, or keep me accountable in any way.

Aaron Smith: When you thought I didn't have a right to, anyway, because of the way I was walking.

Jennifer Smith: Yeah. When you did try and step in and encourage me to be healthy, I wouldn't let you.

Aaron Smith: You'd use my sin as an excuse for your own.

Jennifer Smith: Right. Yeah, so that was this crazy cycle in itself, of not being able to walk in the freedom that Christ gave both of us because we were stuck in-

Aaron Smith: Impurity.

Jennifer Smith: ... impurity.

Aaron Smith: Yeah. So the fifth calling for your marriage is to walk in purity. And if you are struggling, or ... I don't even want to say struggling. If you're in these problems, these sins, addiction to pornography, eating habits, things that you haven't submitted to the Lord and you're holding onto and saying, "This is mine," you need to repent today and walk in the freedom that Galatians 5:1 tells us we have, "For freedom Christ has set you free. Stand firm therefore and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery." If you have the Holy Spirit living in you, you have the power to walk in freedom and purity.

Jennifer Smith: And as you're evaluating your life, I would also suggest that, you know, maybe it's not pornography, maybe it's not food, but maybe it's music, maybe it's what you're reading, maybe it's the ...

Aaron Smith: Yeah, maybe you love romance novels-

Jennifer Smith: Yeah.

Aaron Smith: ... and you dwell on those and you read them often and ...

Jennifer Smith: Maybe it's other types of websites that you're viewing online or maybe it's a bad shopping habit. There are so many different ways that we can live impure lives, and God calls us to a higher standard than that. And it's for the protection of our hearts, for the protection of our marriages, for the protection of our families, that we live pure lives.

Aaron Smith: And in doing so, it makes our marriages be able to walk in the higher calling that our marriages have, which is ministering to the world, which is doing the will of the Father, and when we aren't walking pure, we're missing it. We cannot do that. It's the plank eye effect.

Aaron Smith: The Bible doesn't say not to go take the speck out of your brother's eye. It says you can't see the speck in their eye clearly because we have a plank in our own. So the idea is that we need to remove that plank. We need to be walking in purity, we need to repent of our sin and accept the freedom that Christ has given us, and the authority and power that he's put in us. So let's move onto the last one.

Jennifer Smith: The last one.

Aaron Smith: And this is a fun one for us, but it's also a hard one.

Jennifer Smith: It was a hard one for me, for sure.

Aaron Smith: And this isn't an extensive list of all the callings that every Christian marriage has, but these are the six that we chose for this podcast, this video, and so what's the sixth one?

Jennifer Smith: So the sixth one is generosity, and I'm going to read 2 Corinthians 9:6-7. It says, "The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

Aaron Smith: So what do you have to say about that in our marriage?

Jennifer Smith: Well, I want to be honest with them and say that, in the beginning of our marriage, I fought generosity and I didn't realize that I was fighting it. I didn't know that I wasn't a generous person, but-

Aaron Smith: Yeah, when I said I wanted to start giving to our church or to some non-profits, what was your answer?

Jennifer Smith: I thought that by giving of my time, was enough.

Aaron Smith: Right.

Jennifer Smith: I really believed that, and-

Aaron Smith: I remember you telling me, be like, "Why do we have to give our money? We give our time." Because we volunteered a lot at the different churches we were part of and ...

Jennifer Smith: We also didn't have very high paying jobs and what we did have went to our living situation, and I never-

Aaron Smith: And debt. We were getting out of debt at the time.

Jennifer Smith: And debt. And I just, I never felt like we had enough, and so to give away the little bit that we had was really frustrating to me and I didn't understand why it was of importance.

Aaron Smith: Especially when we didn't have the things that a lot of our friends and married couples had.

Jennifer Smith: Yeah.

Aaron Smith: We didn't have our own home. We only had one car. We didn't have-

Jennifer Smith: When we did have an apartment, I remember going down to the thrift store to get a can opener-

Aaron Smith: Right.

Jennifer Smith: ... or whatever little thing that we needed to be able to live.

Aaron Smith: And we were doing all that for the purpose of getting out of debt, but in our mode of getting out of debt, I believed what the scripture said about generosity and giving, and so we wanted to walk in obedience to that. So even though we were trying to get out of debt, we're like we're also going to give to what God's doing.

Jennifer Smith: And I will say that this is a huge testimony to God's way of submission, because as your wife, I submitted to you in this call of generosity and it actually changed me. It changed me heart. It changed my perspective and my view.

Aaron Smith: Right.

Jennifer Smith: At first, it was challenging for me and I complained, and I do feel bad about that still. But over time, I saw this verse come to life, that when you sow bountifully, you reap bountifully. I saw it even in our own marriage.

Aaron Smith: Yeah.

Jennifer Smith: The times that you were generous with me, whether it was with your time or your resources or with gifts, I would feel something in my heart to want to do it back.

Aaron Smith: Yeah.

Jennifer Smith: So I even saw that come alive in our own marriage, but also out in our other relationships.

Aaron Smith: And this calling for your marriage, of being generous, there's not a dollar amount on this. This is not a, like, you have to give this amount of money all the time. The New Testament, specifically, is very clear that God wants all of it. He wants to know that our hands are open and that whatever he puts in, he can also take out. So this isn't a prosperity gospel of, like, if you put money in the basket, money's going to come right back out to you. Sometimes that happens, but in many ways, the blessing that we've gotten from walking in generosity, just in every aspect of our life, is having a healthy perspective on money. We don't crave money. We don't crave more money. We don't seek wealth.

Jennifer Smith: Or things, really, I mean we just-

Aaron Smith: I mean, even things, yeah. We see things as useful objects. We don't see them as things that are going to fulfill us. Man, the amount of things that God's been able to do, just through our little bit of generosity, in other marriages lives, in other people's lives, around the world, has been a huge testimony to God's goodness in our life.

Aaron Smith: So what happens is, God blesses us, because we're all blessed. Everyone's blessed, right. Just Jesus Christ alone, he's the best gift anyone's ever been given. But even just in our day to day life, the things that we have, recognizing that they're not ours.

Jennifer Smith: Yeah.

Aaron Smith: That they're used for his Kingdom.

Aaron Smith: So in your marriage, the calling of generosity, are you being generous with your home? Are you being generous with your cars, with your finances, with your time? Are you walking in a marriage, in a level of generosity where you just trust God and say, "Okay, Lord, we're open to what you have for us and we're going to do it." We don't know what's that looks like means, but we're going to say, "Lord, this is your money, how do you want us to use it? Do you have someone that needs help in the church, that you want us to bless? Is it $5 to help someone with a meal? Is it $20 for gas for someone? Is it $100 to a missionary?" It could be anything.

Jennifer Smith: And when you submit your heart to God in prayer and you tell him, "I'm yours and everything I have is yours," you will hear him speak to you, as far as that tugging on your heart to give. In those divine moments where someone else is in need, he'll show you.

Aaron Smith: Yeah, and he does it all the time, and that's where our hearts are at. "Okay, Lord, what do you have next for us?" We actually start the year off, every year, "God, how do you want to use us this year, financially?"

Jennifer Smith: Yeah. It is a part of our goal setting.

Aaron Smith: Yeah. So we hope you enjoyed these six callings that the Lord has for your marriage. We try and walk in these calling ourselves, and we hope that by you walking in these, and chasing after these biblical concepts and callings for your marriage, that you'll be led towards God's greater calling for your marriage, whatever that may be, and that your eyes would be open and that your heart would be open into receiving what he has for you as individuals in your marriage, and as a unit, as a whole.

Aaron Smith: If you enjoyed this video, please hit the subscribe button and also hit the bell next to the subscribe button so you get notifications when we post new videos.

Jennifer Smith: Also, leave a comment. If there are other callings that God has for Christian marriages we'd love to be encouraged by that and see more.

Aaron Smith: See you later.

Aaron Smith: Did you enjoy today's show? Find many more encouraging stories and resources at and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Jul 03, 2019
Busy Seasons, Pursuing God Amid Struggles & Ministry At the Cost Of Your Family.

We have the privilege of re-airing an interview The Other Half Podcast did with us last month. Please enjoy!

Check out their Podcast here.

Here are there websites as well :)

Jul 01, 2019
How to Encourage Your Spouse In Times Of Doubt & Fear

Times of doubt and fear will come and how we handle it matters.

If you have been blessed by this podcast and would love to support it please take a moment and pick up a copy of our new book Marriage After God.


Dear Lord, Thank you for the gift of marriage. Thank you for the gift of life. We pray that doubt and fear would not overwhelm our hearts and minds. We pray we would not let doubt or fear keep us from doing the things you have called us to do. May your Holy Spirit remind us of Your Words and encourage our hearts to be faithful and brave, people who rely on your strength and power. We pray we would be quick to encourage one another through moments when doubt or fear arises or when something happens that triggers these emotions to stir up. Help us not to worry and help us not to be anxious. May your peace comfort us and remind us of our security in You. In Jesus’ name, amen!

Jun 26, 2019
We Create A Family Mission Statement

Having a mission statement for your family isn't required but it can be very beneficial for creating and maintaining the culture of your home. Jennifer and I have never created a mission statement before so we thought we would make one while you listen.

If you have been blessed by the Marriage After God podcast please consider supporting it by picking up a copy of our book titled Marriage After God.

[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with "Marriage After God".

[Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

[Aaron] And today we're gonna do something fun and we're gonna talk about creating a family mission statement. Welcome to the "Marriage After God" podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just "Happily Ever After".

[Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as "Unveiled Wife".

[Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as "Husband Revolution".

[Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade.

[Aaron] And so far, we have four young children.

[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years, through blogging and social media.

[Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day.

[Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one full of life.

[Aaron] Love.

[Jennifer] And power.

[Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God.

[Jennifer] Together.

[Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.

[Jennifer] This is "Marriage After God". Firstly, we want to just thank everyone for joining us on this podcast today. We're super excited just to have you join us 'cause this is gonna be an interesting episode. We have a lot in store for you, but first we just wanna ask that you would take a minute to leave us a review. It's easy, you just scroll to the bottom of the app and just leave us a star rating review or comment review. This is one way to support the podcast "Marriage After God" because it allows other people to find the podcast, and we wanna do that. So, please take a moment to help us out there and thank you.

[Aaron] Also, our book's out. Our new book, "Marriage After God", is available. It's been such and awesome ride seeing the response we've been getting, and if you have not picked up a copy yet, we'd love for you to go to, and pick up a copy today. One of the most powerful ways you can support us, is by buying our book, and it also supports your marriage and your life. We wrote the book for you. We wrote it to encourage you in the ministry that God has for you and your spouse, so go grab a copy today.

[Jennifer] Okay, so we are going to start off here with an ice-breaker question, and Aaron came up with this question, so I'm hoping he has an answer. What is the ideal family trip or vacation?

[Aaron] I actually didn't think about it when I said it, so I don't have... Okay, let me think. Ideal family trip. So, I can look back on something we have done that I really enjoyed, when we went to the East Coast, but we did like a plane-drive, plane-drive.

[Jennifer] It was over a period of a week and a half, two weeks.

[Aaron] Yeah, and I thought that was a lot of fun 'cause we got to fly the portions that I thought would've been boring, maybe. Get to a new area and then drive around, stay for a day or two, go to the next place--

[Jennifer] And here, you said, "Ideal family trip". That doesn't sound ideal for any family.

[Aaron] For me! Oh, are you saying ideal for everyone?

[Jennifer] Yeah, I don't know if that was your question, but I'm just thinking everyone listening right now is probably shaking their heads, no.

[Aaron] I thought that was a fun trip for us.

[Jennifer] I think the majority of families, especially with young children, would say flying and driving multiple times in one trip would be a difficult challenge.

[Aaron] Okay, I didn't know it "ideal for everyone". Ideal for everyone would be like, going somewhere awesome and staying there for a while. Like, with a house that's comfortable and you have all your family with you, and there's a pool or a beach.

[Jennifer] Where would that place be, Aaron?

[Aaron] Maui? I don't know.

[Jennifer] Awesome.

[Aaron] What's ideal for you? What would that be?

[Jennifer] So, I think you and me just like adventure because I really had fun that time too, that we went to the East Coast, but I think an ideal family trip is visiting family in California. I think that's just because I know it's something the kids enjoy. We usually hit up the beach. We stay there all day.

[Aaron] Yeah, that is fun.

[Jennifer] I think it's just an easy, kind of, go-to is when you're visiting family somewhere, you're staying with them, and you're just doing something simple.

[Aaron] All right, that's good answer.

[Jennifer] Relaxing.

[Aaron] I'm sure everyone listening has their own ideal. Like, staying home. Eating ice cream, that sounds ideal.

[Jennifer] Now that it's summertime, I'm sure there's a lot of people traveling and doing, you know, maybe family vacations or summer trips.

[Aaron] Camping. So, we hope you guys are, and we hope that if you can spend that time with your family and doing something fun, even if it's local, like camping in the backyard, you're doing it, 'cause those are memories that your kids will love forever.

[Aaron] Oh yeah. So, I just wanna, before we get into the main topic, I'm gonna read a quote from the book "Marriage After God", and it's about this idea. It's from Chapter 13 of "Marriage After God".

[Jennifer] About what idea? Just that you clarify.

[Aaron] Yeah, it's about the idea of creating a vision statement or mission statement for your marriage. It says this, "Casting a vision together for the future "of your marriage is an intimate experience "where hope for the future "stimulates perseverance for today." What's awesome about that is, when we create a vision for the future, it doesn't mean we're necessarily planning to the "T" everything that's going to happen in the future, it's just saying like, "This is where we'd like to be."

[Jennifer] Mm-hmm.

[Aaron] "This is what, you know, "the trajectory we want to be on as a family." It helps in those moments when it's tedious; when it's hard; when you're going through something and you say, "Well, we're in this together. "We're going the same direction. "We know where we wanna be, and even if we never get "to that exact point in time, or ideal situation, "we're going there together."

[Jennifer] Yeah, and in Chapter 13 of "Marriage After God" we really, you know, drive home this idea that this is an intimate experience that you guys get to do together, and it's something to look forward to casting a vision together and having hope for your marriage and hope for your future together and for your family. This is something that we've kept as a valuable thing in our marriage for years, and I enjoy it. I enjoy the process with you, and so even though in "Marriage After God" we don't strictly talk about creating a family mission statement, we do talk about casting a vision together.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] And in the back of "Marriage After God" we even list some questions for you to sit down and have one of those date-night conversations and be mindful of the next five years, the next 25 years and what that looks like, because when we look to the future of things, there is hope there.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] I think that's important.

[Aaron] And we have, like you said, we've always cast vision, planned for the next 60 days, next six months, next year, five years.

[Jennifer] We kinda do seasons.

[Aaron] We do seasons of that, but we've never sat down and actually wrote down a family vision statement.

[Jennifer] Yeah, so even thought we kind of operate out of this same understanding, we've never sat down to do it, and it was actually because of the "Marriage After God" podcast series, which if you guys haven't checked that out, we've been going through--

[Aaron] Yeah just--

[Jennifer] Yeah, 16, 17 episodes about this idea of 'Marriage After God' but several people who we interviewed brought up this idea of creating a family mission statement, and how it has impacted their marriage. I know people share about it online too. So, we just kinda wanted to use this time to, first, encourage you guys in your marriage.

[Aaron] Mm-hmm.

[Jennifer] Encourage you guys to have hope for the future as you vision plan together, but even more so create a family mission statement. That's our challenge for you at the end of this episode and because Aaron and I have never officially done this before or wrote it down, we thought it would be fun to--

[Aaron] We're gonna do it with you.

[Jennifer] Do it with you, so--

[Aaron] We're just gonna start talkin' about it in this podcast episode, and we're gonna start coming up with kinda the foundational ideas for our own mission statement.

[Jennifer] This was an idea that I had after having those interviews and being encouraged by people because I thought, "So often we hear people say, "'We did this thing. "'We created this family mission statement "'and here it is, or it's still a work in progress.'"

[Aaron] That sounds wonderful. Good for them.

[Jennifer] That's awesome, but where's the example of doing it? Which I don't know if everybody needs an example of that but sometimes it's helpful to go, what does that actually look like in a conversation?

[Aaron] Yeah, how do you have that conversation with you spouse? I feel like every time a couple that we interviewed brought it up, we looked at each other and we're like, "We need to do that!" We wave our hands like, yeah, we just need to do that.

[Jennifer] So, the unique part of this episode today is actually that we're gonna be jumping in here in a bit to kind of experience it with you guys. This is like a behind the scenes kind of--

[Aaron] We have not talked about this before recording this.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] So, you'll hear the candid conversation about how we see our family, where we see we're gonna go, yeah. So, you're gonna join us on this little adventure with us.

[Jennifer] Okay, so--

[Aaron] Before we start, why don't you read that quote from "Seven Habits of a Highly Effective Family" by Stephen Covey.

[Jennifer] Okay.

[Aaron] 'Cause it's in his whole book about creating a mission statement.

[Jennifer] So, I will let you guys know that we actually haven't read this book, but I just jumped on really quick and I typed in Google and said, "family mission statement".

[Aaron] This is a part of the process.

[Jennifer] Yeah, I encourage you guys to do that too. So, we haven't read this book. We probably will in the future, but there was several people who were quoting this from his book, and it says, "A family mission statement "is a combined unified expression from all family members "of what your family is all about, "what it is you really want to do and be, "and the principles you choose to govern your family life."

[Aaron] That's cool, and that's essentially what we're doing. We're not doing it with our kids this time. Our kids are, I think, too young. They'll eventually get older and then what we'll do is we'll probably sit down with them and invite them in and we'll adjust 'cause maybe our kids will have other perspectives they wanna bring in. I know that we have families that they have large families, lots of kids, and they bring their kids in, their older kids, and invite 'em to be a part of this vision planning and mission statement.

[Jennifer] So, two things, since we're being candid here.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] The first one being, I don't think our children are too small to be incorporated, even at this stage of the game because it's not finalized yet, right?

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] This is our initial go at it. And so I think--

[Aaron] And Elliott is pretty smart.

[Jennifer] Yeah, Elliott's smart.

[Aaron] He'll be like, "Why don't we..."

[Jennifer] But I think... Okay, so our kids are six and a half, four, two, and eight months. So obviously, Truit's not gonna say much.

[Aaron] I don't know.

[Jennifer] But having a family fun meeting, where we're saying, "Okay guys, here are some questions "mommy and daddy have for you", and getting them involved. Maybe even if some of the questions are over their head, it'll still be a fun time to spend together and maybe we'll be surprised."

[Aaron] Let's write down the funny answers and then we'll keep those for the future and say, "This is what you said when you were four."

[Jennifer] Maybe we'll be surprised by them.

[Aaron] That's probably true.

[Jennifer] So, I do--

[Aaron] I concede.

[Jennifer] The second thing is I wanna encourage those listening, if you do have children, that you do find a way to incorporate them in this process because they are a part of the family; and if you're doing it and you don't have kids yet, that's okay too. You and your spouse--

[Aaron] And I guess it's gonna give them more ownership and be like, "Hey, you are members of this family, "not just people that are in it."

[Jennifer] Right.

[Aaron] "You're part of it."

[Jennifer] Yeah, and I think what I've gathered from trying to understand this family mission statement saying, is that it's not something that is like, "here are the rules", you know. It's more of something that's supposed to encourage the family unit to be in agreeance and have the same understanding of what those family core values are. So, even though this quote up here says "to govern your family life", I think there's freedom in that. It's not like a list of rules, but it's something creative, a creative way to establish standards and core values.

[Aaron] Okay. So, should we do it?

[Jennifer] I think we should jump in, yeah.

[Aaron] Should we start working on this? I know our kids aren't here but we're gonna start at least with the foundational stuff, maybe?

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] Answer some questions.

[Jennifer] And just again to preface, this is not something that's... There's not a final answer to. We're kinda just jumping in to show you guys how the conversation could go.

[Aaron] Well, it's gonna go.

[Jennifer] Well, it's gonna go. This is it.

[Aaron] This is our legitimate conversation that we're gonna talk about our mission statement as a family.

[Jennifer] Okay. You might hear keyboard typing 'cause I'm taking notes. That's how I'm doin' it.

[Aaron] Yeah, so you have a question there, but I guess I wanna start with the first one. I know we kind of hit it up, but when you hear "mission statement"... 'Cause I'm sure everyone has their own little definition of it, and you even had to Google it, like, "What's everyone do?" Everyone's got a little different take on it. When you think mission statement, what do you think? Like, is this our one word phrase or few words phrase? Like, when we are out and about we say, "This is who we are!"

[Jennifer] Yeah, we get t-shirts made, right?

[Aaron] Yeah, we can get some t-shirts made.

[Jennifer] That's not a bad idea. The word that comes to my mind is it's a motto. It's a way of being. It's a way of doing life together, and I do think it is something that should be shortened and concise so that it's easy to remember.

[Aaron] I agree.

[Jennifer] There might be portions of it that are expanded upon, but I think it should be something that is easy to remember.

[Aaron] Okay, it's almost like a statement of faith on our website

[Jennifer] Exactly!

[Aaron] It's like, "This is what we believe, "this is who we are."

[Jennifer] Exactly.

[Aaron] Yeah, and this is how we're gonna live. Of course, because we're believers and we love the Lord and we love the Bible, that's probably gonna be a big part of this.

[Jennifer] Well, yeah. I would assume that Christians who create a family mission statement, it's built upon the Word.

[Aaron] Right. Okay, so we're gonna have to have some verses and we'll get to that probably.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] So, here's the first question. What are some words that describe our family or what we want our family to be?

[Jennifer] Hmm.

[Aaron] I'm just gonna throw out the first thing--

[Jennifer] Okay, go.

[Aaron] I thought of is generous.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] And for those listening, a lot of the things we're gonna say, because we kind of have just walked in certain things over the last 12 years that we've been married and even before then. I think there's just gonna be some natural things that come out of us.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] But now it's gonna be solidified as, "This is who we are." So, generosity is something I believe has been a mark of our marriage for a long time.

[Jennifer] I like that. A word that comes to my mind is, I think I already said it, but "adventurous". Meaning that we find the fun in things.

[Aaron] Write that down, "we find the fun in thing", 'cause there could be lot's of different "adventurous." Adventurous like, we like to take financial risks. Or adventurous like--

[Jennifer] No, more like, we do fun things.

[Aaron] Okay, that's a different kind of adventur--

[Jennifer] We like to explore. We like to eat. We like to go--

[Aaron] We love change.

[Jennifer] We love change.

[Aaron] Not too much change but we like new environments. We like--

[Jennifer] Yeah, I would say, not change so much to our rhythms and routines, because those are important but more so just experiential. I don't know how to explain it.

[Aaron] Like new environments.

[Jennifer] New environments.

[Aaron] It goes into the adventurous side of... We like to go to new places. We like to be around new people.

[Jennifer] I don't know if we've shared this before but we've kind of done these Saturday adventure days with the kids throughout the summer time.

[Aaron] Mm-hmm.

[Jennifer] 'Cause we go through seasons where it's just easier.

[Aaron] We did a podcast about the adventure days.

[Jennifer] Okay. So, that's an important thing. When I think of adventure, I think time set aside where we know we're gonna be doing something with the kids, whether it's local or maybe a--

[Aaron] Out of the norm. So, like, we have our normal flow. We have our normal rhythm, and then we're gonna go do something 'not'.

[Jennifer] Go on a hike.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] Go look at the river. Go whatever it is.

[Aaron] Go for a long drive to a new place through a rose garden or apples.

[Jennifer] I do, I make... You guys don't know this about me. I make Aaron go out of his way for me all the time because--

[Aaron] She's like, "I found this orchard "on the other side of the mountain. "Can we go?" And then like, it's not open or... I'm just kidding. No, we've actually had a lot of cool adventures just 'cause you Google and find a cool place to go see.

[Jennifer] Yeah, even like, we were in Portland this time last year. I remember it was hot and only Elliot was awake, the other kids were napping. I was like, "Will you just pull over and let me go see "the rose garden? "I've been wanting to see it." You know, but it was a fun little detour and it worked out for everyone. I like that kind of stuff.

[Aaron] So, adventurous in the fun kind of way, in the environmental kind of way, the experiential kind of way.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] I would say another word I think of is community.

[Jennifer] Mmm.

[Aaron] I know it's like an easy buzz word for Christians.

[Jennifer] No, it's good.

[Aaron] We've made big decisions in our life and one of the main criteria in that decision was community.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] Often.

[Jennifer] Mm-hmm.

[Aaron] When moving, our prayer was, "Well, we can't move until something changes "in our community because we have these relationships, "we have these connections. "God has us here."

[Jennifer] So, being loyal.

[Aaron] Yeah, I like that word, loyal. We walk with people and we don't just say, "Well, "they'll get over it, we're gonna move on "and find new friends."

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] Not that we've been perfect at this, but community's been a huge part of how we make decisions. Even now we think, "If we ever had to move, "who's are we gonna convince to move with us?" And it's not that we don't like being... Like we couldn't do it on our own. We know that community is so important and we want to take it with us.

[Jennifer] Yeah. So, I would say a part of that is also walking in light, and we've done this time and time again where it's just being transparent, being able to communicate--

[Aaron] Oh, put that word, that's a good word, transparent.

[Jennifer] Okay.

[Aaron] I guess it is tied to community, but it's transparent in other things too 'cause our online communities we are transparent with and we don't know any of them.

[Jennifer] If nobody knows what he's talking about, we have these online communities who are amazing people.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] Who have been following us

[Aaron] Facebook, Instagram.

[Jennifer] For eight years now.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] It's so awesome.

[Aaron] Yeah. So, we try and be the same person to every person we meet. Would that be like--

[Jennifer] Integrity?

[Aaron] Integrity.

[Jennifer] I like that.

[Aaron] I don't know if that's in-Integrity's like being the same person when no one's around. Right?

[Jennifer] But also when different people are around. It's all the time.

[Aaron] Right, okay. Say like, I'm not showing this person that face, and then that person this face.

[Jennifer] I only show you different faces.

[Aaron] Okay.

[Jennifer] I used to have to work on this.

[Aaron] Showing me like... I'd be like, "Why do you give everyone the 'good' face?" And then when you get home I get that face.

[Jennifer] Yeah, you said, "I want the best of you."

[Aaron] Yeah, that was--

[Jennifer] 'cause I had a problem with showing you too much--

[Aaron] Well, I think it's normal. Just as a little tangent. It's easy to let down the face you have on for everyone else, when you're around the person you know loves you.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] But we should really say, "No, I'm actually gonna work harder to give the best "to my closest neighbor, my spouse." It doesn't mean we give the worst to our other neighbors.

[Jennifer] Everybody else.

[Aaron] Yeah, I guess it's just--

[Jennifer] I needed balance in my life when it came to that.

[Aaron] Yeah, it's learning how to be real. Like, when you're around someone, you could at least be real and say, "I'm not feeling good right now" or "I'm not"... Anyways, that was a tangent. So, transparent, I like. That's a good word. That's something that's always been, we've always prided ourselves in... I don't wanna say "prided ourselves". Just being transparent. Not wanting to hide things, be open. Integrity is a good word. So, I think community, transparency, generous, let's think...

[Jennifer] I would say faithfulness to our Christian walk, to being obedient to God's Word. Our faith is foundational.

[Aaron] I like faithfulness though as the word, because it's easy to say faith. Faith's important, but faithfulness means to our faith and to the Word, and to God.

[Jennifer] It's like active.

[Aaron] Yeah, it's like a movement word. Is that a verb? It's an action word. What are some... I feel like there's other words that we often say.

[Jennifer] Just real quick as a side note to those listening.

[Aaron] Extraordinary. I just wanted to say before I forgot it.

[Jennifer] Okay. That's fine.

[Aaron] Extraordinary is a big word for us.

[Jennifer] Yes. Do you wanna explain why?

[Aaron] Well, we talk about it a lot in the book "Marriage After God".

[Jennifer] Mm-hmm.

[Aaron] But it's this idea that we've always had a heart to not just be normal.

[Jennifer] Mm-hmm.

[Aaron] And that doesn't mean that our goal was to be special and like how we wanted to have this... 'Cause starting this ministry online wasn't even an idea in our hearts when we first got married, but our idea was like, "Well, let's just do what God wants "and that's going to be extraordinary."

[Jennifer] Mm-hmm.

[Aaron] We went to the mission field for a while and then we went to Canada, and we went to Florida, and we did all these different little things.

[Jennifer] I can actually see how even smaller decisions in our life, like buying this house, that wasn't a small decision, but--

[Aaron] It was at--

[Jennifer] But I just think of decisions that we've made together and we've even out-loud said to ourselves, "Well, that's extraordinary", or "That's not the normal way!"

[Aaron] Right, well we could do the ordinary or we could do it the extraordinary way.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] And the reason you brought up this house, for those that don't know, they can actually find a YouTube video about us doing the house process. We bought a, I wanna say a fixer-upper.

[Jennifer] Decrepit.

[Aaron] But it was a beater-upper. It was really bad. We had to tear down most of the house to fix it back up, but when we thought about it we were like, "Well, this is how we're gonna get what we can afford."

[Jennifer] Mm-hmm.

[Aaron] "And then we can make it ours." Which, lot's of people do that, but it was extraordinary in my mind. So, extraordinary is a good word for us.

[Jennifer] Yeah. So, when you paused back there I was just gonna note that that's okay when you're doing this process together. There's gonna be times when something might be on your heart or right at the tip of your tongue, and you don't know how to explain it. I think that's why the majority of people will say, "You don't just sit down and write a mission statement. "It's a process, and the process is what counts. "The process is the important part "because you're actually communicating with each other "on what matters most to you."

[Aaron] Good tip.

[Jennifer] Yeah. So, you just mull it over and come back to the drawing board over and over and over again until you narrow it down.

[Aaron] Yeah, and I think after we go through this, we'll be able to see these words and think of better words.

[Jennifer] Probably. Or use the good old dictionary!

[Aaron] Or just the thesaurus.

[Jennifer] Thanks, Google.

[Aaron] Thesaurus.

[Jennifer] Okay, so are there any phrases that we repeat often or say?

[Aaron] Yeah, there's a--

[Jennifer] I know one! Go ahead, what were you gonna say?

[Aaron] We do hard things.

[Jennifer] Yes! That was what I was gonna say!

[Aaron] That was... But you know what? That's a phrase that we only started saying when our kids started getting older.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] But--

[Jennifer] To encourage them we would say things "We're the Smiths and we do hard things."

[Aaron] And so they own it, and they say, "Oh, okay. "This thing that I said is hard, we do those things."

[Jennifer] Yeah. What's cool is they've recognized when we're doing Bible time, certain stories in the Bible of people doing hard things they'll recognize and go, "Hey, David does hard things!"

[Aaron] Yeah! So, I think "We do hard things" is a important phrase, and we didn't come up with that of course.

[Jennifer] But we use it.

[Aaron] We use it often.

[Jennifer] I don't know where it came from.

[Aaron] And it doesn't just remind our kids, it reminds us because how many times a day do we get to this point of like, "Ugh, I don't wanna do this right now." And they're like, "Ugh, we do hard things."

[Jennifer] It's the fight against the flesh.

[Aaron] Yeah, we just did our lawns for the first time this season, and I just kept wanting to quit. I was like, "I did enough. Next week I'll finish the weeds." And I'm like . And then I go through and I'm like, "Oh, I'm just gonna go "a little bit further and make this look nice. Then I'm like, "Ugh, I just wanna give up." And then I go a little bit further, and I just kept telling myself, "No, I can finish this. "It's like my first time ever doing this, I should be fine."

[Jennifer] That same conversation happens to me every single time I go to work out. It's like, you have ten squats on the list to do and you get through four and you're like, "Ahh!"

[Aaron] "I should be able to do this."

[Jennifer] "Okay, I'll do one more." And then you want to bail out but then you just keep going, you keep going, you keep going.

[Aaron] I think it's a good phrase. What's another phrase that we say? Oh, it's kind of a word but we use it as a phrase.

[Jennifer] What?

[Aaron] "Gotta have self-control."

[Jennifer] Oh, self-control.

[Aaron] So, it's a word but--

[Jennifer] Self-control.

[Aaron] We use it in a sense that we say it probably a million and a half times a day to our kids. "Are you having self-control? "You need to have self-control. "Remember self-control!"

[Jennifer] We say it to each other now, too, because in conjunction with "We're setting the example. "We're setting the example".

[Aaron] One of us will be having an attitude about something, just tired or exhausted or frustrated; and I'll be like, "Okay, are you self-controlled right now?" We say it a little quieter to each other.

[Jennifer] Okay. So, what--

[Aaron] Is there any other phrases? We say other things.

[Jennifer] I'm sure there are and we can come back to this if we think about it, but I was gonna ask, "What is it that we value? "What are some things that we really value?"

[Aaron] The Word of God. We have to start with that. I know that sounds like the default answer, but it has to be the number one thing we value. It's what we tell our kids is the most important thing, it's what we try and teach them, we try and live it. So, I think the Word of God is... Now, I will say this, and it's something I've been convicted on recently and something that God's been convicting me on for my whole life, probably. I think this, and then I'm like, "But do I actually show this?" Am I in my Word as much as I could be? I don't want to say "should be" because I don't think there's a number or how many chapters or how many words or how many verses, or whatever; but I know in my heart when I'm in and out of it. I know when I'm giving God's Word the attention it deserves in my life. We could feel it.

[Jennifer] Mm-hmm.

[Aaron] Recently you've been kind of just overwhelmed with the book launch that--

[Jennifer] Lots of stuff to do.

[Aaron] Lots of stuff to do and I was just thinking to myself, I'm like, "I wonder what-I didn't say this to you, but I was wondering when you were in the Word.

[Jennifer] It's so funny, it's not funny, it's... Wow, this is really convicting because I know exactly the moment in that conversation where I had this thought that, "I wouldn't be feeling this way "if I was in the Word", and--

[Aaron] When was it? 'cause I was thinking about it. I didn't say it to you, I was just... 'Cause I was just encouraging you and comforting you and letting you know it was gonna be okay.

[Jennifer] No, it was really impactful for me, and I've been in the Word since. I think sometimes we just get in these ruts or seasons where we're busy or we're going strong on certain areas of our life, and we don't realize when another area have kind of--

[Aaron] Yeah, we've neglected an area.

[Jennifer] Been neglected, and that was happening with me for a couple days. I'd say about a week and a half.

[Aaron] Well, me too, and I was feeling... Remember I told you how I was feeling?

[Jennifer] Yeah, I think it was compiling.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] I think the Lord is good.

[Aaron] Well, I was just thinking on Sunday, the message was about... Actually the message wasn't about it, but Matt said, "Hey, we can't know all of this in one sitting. "We have to just go line by line, verse by verse, "chapter by chapter, over years of reading and reading, "and re-reading and re-reading, and re-memorizing "and re-stating, and chewing it over." Then this morning, I was listening to J. Vernon McGee, and he was in Isaiah and he was bringing up the scripture that talks about "precept upon precept, line by line", and he was saying... You know, it took five years for J. Vernon McGee to teach through the Bible. That was just him going through one time.

[Jennifer] Mm-hmm.

[Aaron] Five years. How much do we go 'precept by precept'? Are we just reading through it? Laying on the knowledge that we're getting out of it. That was another good tangent, but Word of God I think is the most valuable thing. It needs to be--

[Jennifer] Bolded?

[Aaron] Yeah, bolded and--

[Jennifer] Italicized?

[Aaron] Italicized, highlighted in green, but I think it needs to be more evident in our own lives for our kids sake and for our own sake.

[Jennifer] Yeah. What a great tool, this mission statement, to remind us to do that. If this is gonna be a foundational thing that is in front of us by maybe putting it on a plaque in our house or however we're gonna display this once we do finalize it. To be reminded of that, you know, every single day.

[Aaron] Yeah, "Let's go back to the Word of God. "What does the Word say about this situation."

[Jennifer] So, what other things do we value? I feel like we value--

[Aaron] Stewardship?

[Jennifer] Stewardship.

[Aaron] Is that a good word?

[Jennifer] That's good.

[Aaron] Like we value--

[Jennifer] I'm gonna write that down.

[Aaron] Being good stewards, which we talk a ton about in 'Marriage after God'.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] Because of how important it is to our ministries.

[Jennifer] It's like the whole book's message, really.

[Aaron] "Are you stewarding the way God's given you well?" That's the whole book actually.

[Jennifer] I guess part of what I was gonna say goes along with this. I don't know if you would agree, but recognizing our need verses want in minimalism. Not that we're minimalist people because we have stuff. We have stuff, but I don't feel like we exaggerate and go outside of what we need. Does that make sense?

[Aaron] I would agree. I think there's been seasons in our life that, because of discontentment or dissatisfaction or whatever, we've chased after things.

[Jennifer] Or acquired.

[Aaron] Collecting things, or buying things that we don't need. That's rarer, I would say. I'm not gonna say, "It's not super rare", but we tend to get what we need and not much more. Again, there's plenty of things that we have.

[Jennifer] I think we've been good over time of challenging each other or encouraging each other, you know, "Maybe we don't need that thing right now", or "Hey, if you are gonna go get that, think about this."

[Aaron] Right.

[Jennifer] You've done it with me with kids clothes before. "Hey, instead of buying off that website "can we just try and"--

[Aaron] "Because they're not gonna fit in it "in six weeks."

[Jennifer] "Or they're gonna be stained up."

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] Or whatever the reasoning's were. That was just the first thing off the top of my head. I think that...

[Aaron] Stewardship minimalist. Yeah, I agree. We're not minimalist, but we definitely think on a more, "What do we need verses what do we want? "And what do we want, is it something we need, "and is it something we can use and is it gonna be"--

[Jennifer] We're willing to be confronted by that, for sure.

[Aaron] Right. What is other things we value? Relationships?

[Jennifer] I was gonna say people.

[Aaron] People, yeah. I would say this goes up higher.

[Jennifer] You can even see this in our kids because Olive really values relationships.

[Aaron] Mm-hmm.

[Jennifer] All of our kids do, but I could just see it in them.

[Aaron] Yeah. Well, it's of course, the Word of God points us to--

[Jennifer] God's relationship.

[Aaron] I would say that's almost the number one message in the Bible, other than Jesus Christ and him crucified, which everything points to that, is why he died for us is to give us relationship with the Father, and then through that gives us relationship with other people, right? Like, John 17, which we should put down because the next thing we're gonna talk about is scripture, but John 17 is a major one, which is the high priestly prayer Jesus prays for his disciples and for everyone who believes in the message that the disciples bring to the world; is that we would be one. That we'd be unified just as Christ and God are unified.

[Jennifer] Yeah, but before we move on to the scripture section, I had some things I wanted to share about the values. So, 'cause this is all about brain-dumping and just getting out of our minds and heart what we believe to be true about our family, to build up this mission statement. So, words like 'creativity'. I feel like we value. Inspiring each other towards greatness.

[Aaron] Can I throw in a word? Creating.

[Jennifer] Creating, okay.

[Aaron] I mean, we've done the self-publishing thing, the blogging, the social media. It's just kind of been a part of what we do. So, creativity, inspiring, but we also create. It's part of us.

[Jennifer] Mmm, that's good.

[Aaron] Elliot loves to draw, Olive loves to paint.

[Jennifer] Yeah. That's good, lots of Lego building.

[Aaron] Lots of Lego building! By the way the Lego thing you built yesterday is awesome. It's like this huge city.

[Jennifer] It was supposed to be Bleecker St. in New York.

[Aaron] Okay.

[Jennifer] I just didn't get to finish it.

[Aaron] I didn't see the signs.

[Jennifer] Oh, go back and look at it. So yeah, some of the things that we value are experiences where, being able to go to a museum if we're near one, or--

[Aaron] I feel like that falls under adventure, adventurous, right?

[Jennifer] Okay. Yeah, but it's like learning experiences.

[Aaron] Well, put learning then. That's a good word.

[Jennifer] Learning. So, whether that's--

[Aaron] Learning is a big thing--

[Jennifer] Experiences or books, resources, pretty much anything I can get my hands on for us or for the kids that encourages growth and investment.

[Aaron] All the educational films like Marvels, Avengers, and Iron Man, those are really for us.

[Jennifer] For us.

[Aaron] For us, yeah. Yeah, I think learning is a great word. So, under value...

[Jennifer] Does food count?

[Aaron] Oh, you know, can I say wisdom?

[Jennifer] Wisdom, yeah.

[Aaron] And you actually should put food on there because that is a huge thing for us. Food. We love food!

[Jennifer] Not just food.

[Aaron] God loved food.

[Jennifer] I know but the experience of food, like the actual tasting good and figuring out what flavors are there, but then the experience of eating with people.

[Aaron] Yeah, so actually food kinda encompasses all these.

[Jennifer] Okay so, on our family mission statement it's gonna say, "The Smith family", and then in bold right beneath that--

[Aaron] "Food."

[Jennifer] 'Food'.

[Aaron] That'll be our... It's short.

[Jennifer] Semi-calling Gods word. So, it's like both, right? It's like the Word of Life.

[Aaron] Well, God's Word is the bread of life. So, it just literally all fits in. Everyone here that's listening, our mission statement is [Jennifer And Aaron] Food.

[Jennifer] This is how our conversations really go in real life, to you guys. We're not makin' this up for you.

[Aaron] I'm pretty sure I can fit every single one of those things into food.

[Jennifer] We'll figure it out.

[Aaron] Yeah. Wisdom, what I mean by wisdom is, wisdom is the application of knowledge.

[Jennifer] Yup.

[Aaron] 'Cause you can know lots of things and do nothing with it.

[Jennifer] Not ever implement it.

[Aaron] Yeah, wisdom is like, "Oh, I actually know how "to navigate this kind of relationship, "therefore I'm going to navigate it that way." Or, "I know that I should keep my mouth shut "in this situation", so I could choose to act on the knowledge or not. So, wisdom is taking the Word of God, taking life experiences and letting it teach us and then saying, "Oh, last time we experienced that. "Let's make a different decision this time."

[Jennifer] Mmm.

[Aaron] We were actually just talking about this in the car. All the experiences the God's given us, hard ones that have taught us things.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] That a lot of people won't ever experience.

[Jennifer] Right, but everyone listening has their own set of experiences that--

[Aaron] That no one else will have.

[Jennifer] No one else will have.

[Aaron] That God wants to use to teach them wisdom.

[Jennifer] Yeah, but wisdom is saying, "Okay, I'm going "to learn from that, and not just learn from it, but"--

[Jennifer] Apply it.

[Aaron] "I'm gonna apply the knowledge to my life now "regardless of how easy it is or how it feels to my flesh."

[Jennifer] Right.

[Aaron] Right.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] So, wisdom is a big one.

[Jennifer] Okay, cool. So, moving on, were there any more scriptures that you wanted to share?

[Aaron] Think of some scriptures...

[Jennifer] One, you brought up generosity earlier, and so one of the scriptures that came to my mind was 2 Corinthians 9:6-8, it says, "The point is this: whoever sows sparingly "will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully "will also reap bountifully. "Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, "not reluctantly or under compulsion, "for God loves a cheerful giver." So, I just thought about that.

[Aaron] That's a great one. Cheerful giver.

[Jennifer] I think it defines how we give, which I love.

[Aaron] Yeah we don't ever, I mean we try not to give out of compulsion. As in, "Oh, we must do this!" No, we'd be like, "We want to do this."

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] So, that's a good one. Another one I think of is the Great Commission in Mathew 28, where Jesus literally tells the church what it's job is. It says, Mathew 28:18, "And Jesus came and said to them, ""All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son "and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe "all that I have commanded you. "And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

[Jennifer] I love that last portion.

[Aaron] Yeah, and we can take this as our individual mandates, but really it's the mandate for the church as a whole, 'cause there's all these different functioning parts.

[Jennifer] Right.

[Aaron] Discipling, evangelism, teaching--

[Jennifer] Baptizing.

[Aaron] Baptizing, all these different things, and we sometimes get to do all of them, and sometimes get to just play at planting or watering.

[Jennifer] A portion of it, mm-hmm.

[Aaron] It's what the church's job is and I think it should be what our job is.

[Jennifer] I feel like if I could summarize that whole verse, it would say, "to make Him known", you know?

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] Like, to know Him and to make Him known. That's such a big--

[Aaron] Put that down. That's a awesome thing, make Him known. I think that should definitely be in our statement because that is our life. We want our children to do that.

[Jennifer] Right.

[Aaron] We want our children to know Him.

[Jennifer] Right.

[Aaron] And then we want our children to make Him known.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] Is our desire.

[Jennifer] Okay, so we want to encourage you guys that as you do jump into experiencing this process of creating a family mission statement, to go to scripture, to see where your family values line up according to His Word, because it is foundational to how we live our lives and do what we do. This was just to give you guys a glimpse into the behind the scenes, Aaron and Jen, and how we communicate through things like this. Being able to share your vision for your family and life, being able to come up with, and create a family mission statement. It's supposed to be a unifying experience of togetherness, intimacy, understanding one another, identifying "who are we" and "what are we doing"?

[Aaron] Yeah, "Who are the Smiths?"

[Jennifer] Well, "who are they listening, who are you?" And kinda just build this missions statement to look forward to sharing it with your family.

[Aaron] Yeah, and we're not done with this. We are going to on our own, now, finish this up; but this was our getting started.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] We started it out. We're glad that you got to join us on this candid conversation of us trying to think out "who we are and what we're about".

[Jennifer] Yeah. I did want to share a couple practical things. When you do do a family mission statement, based off of what I've seen and you guys have probably seen too. Some fun ways to have this experience and share it with each other is use a whiteboard, or get some poster paper, or a pen and paper, or like we just did, use your computer, your phone, whatever it takes to make those notes. You can brain-dump and then cross stuff out as you go, but have fun with it. Also, some examples of making it visible in the home. I have some people say, "In this house", and then they list all their words.

[Aaron] So, once we're done with it we can put this up somewhere so we're always seeing, "Hey, look what we... "We're not acting the way we say we're gonna act."

[Jennifer] Exactly. Some people do the last name in bold at the top and then share the core values or the mission statement. Some people put it in a frame. Some people put it on script, on canvas. There's so many different ways that you can visibly show it in your home and the great thing about that is--

[Aaron] Tattoos, that's a really good one, right?

[Jennifer] Just tattoo it on our backs?

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] No, but this is a great thing, like you said, to be mindful of how we operate as a family. We can even share as our kids get older, and teach them through it like, "Hey, we're the Smith's and we do hard things. "See it says it right there." So, those are just some things and we wanted to encourage you guys in that.

[Aaron] Yeah, and I hope you had fun with us, too. We had fun. We're gonna finish it up, we'll probably do it on a date night or over the next... It doesn't have to be done right away, right. It's something that we can evolve with us.

[Jennifer] It's a work in progress and so many people who have shared theirs with ours have said, "It's still a work in progress, "and you can change it and alter it as you go." Remember, you can incorporate your family, your kids and everyone to participate in it, but we did wanna challenge you guys with doing it. Even if it's just the initial go at it like we just did.

[Aaron] Start it on your next date night.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] That's the reason, you're like, "Oh, we have to go "do our mission statement. "Oh, we'll need a babysitter! "Let's go do this."

[Jennifer] Have fun, have fun, have fun!

[Aaron] Yeah, and then invite your kids into it also. Not on date night. Go to date night, start it, come home, invite them in afterwards, or on another day.

[Jennifer] And you guys don't need a specific set of questions to figure out. What we just did is we just said, "What are some phrases "and words that define our family, "of what we know of our family already?"

[Aaron] We just started.

[Jennifer] We just did it. Ask each other hard questions.

[Aaron] Cool, so we like to end our episodes with a prayer, and so, Jennifer, would you pray for us?

[Jennifer] Sure. Dear Lord, Thank you for the gift of marriage. May we continue to walk in obedience to Your Word as we seek to fulfill Your will for our lives and our marriage. We pray, we would consider the purpose You have for our marriage and we pray we will work together to communicate what our family mission statement is. We pray we would humbly submit it before You and that it would become a pillar in our family and in our life, that reminds us what we are doing and where we are headed. May this family mission statement build up according to Your core values, be an anchor for our marriage and family, motivating us to live our lives on purpose. May the experience of considering and building our family mission statement be a time of togetherness intimacy and understanding. Thank you for the hope You give us every day. May we honor You with our lives. In Jesus name, Amen.

[Aaron] Amen. So, we just want to thank every one for joining us this week and listening to this episode. I hope you had fun with us. It was a lot of fun for us, as I said earlier. But go, start a mission statement with your spouse and with your family, and see what happens. See how it focuses you. You might end up finding out that you're participating in things that don't even line up with what you guys believe as a family. That might be cool. Or you might realize that there's opportunities out there that you could be tapping into because of it. We just wanted to thank you. We look forward to having you next week, and if you have not yet went to shop.marriageaftergod,com and picked up a copy of our new book, "Marriage After God", we'd love to invite you to do so. We thank you for everything. You guys are awesome. All the reviews, all of the comments and stuff we get on our social media, and just all the listens. You guys listening to these podcasts, we just so appreciate you guys. We look forward to having you next week. See you later. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes, also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Jun 19, 2019
Can I Fall Out Of Love In My Marriage?

Join the Marriage After God Movement! Thousands have already said yes and we want to invite you to join them. Learn More Here

  • Is love something that we can fall in and out of?
  • Can I still be in love if I don't feel like it?
  • What if I'm not happy in my marriage anymore?
  • If I fell into love once can I fall into love again with someone else?

[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

[Aaron] And today, we're gonna be tackling the question, can you fall out of love in marriage? Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.

[Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife.

[Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution.

[Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade.

[Aaron] And so far, we have four young children.

[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media.

[Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day.

[Jennifer] We believe the Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life.

[Aaron] Love.

[Jennifer] And power.

[Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God.

[Jennifer] Together.

[Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.

[Jennifer] This is Marriage After God.

[Aaron] Hey, thanks for joining us on another episode of the Marriage After God podcast. We just wanna invite you at the end of the podcast or anytime, really, to leave us a star rating and a review. That helps other people find our podcast, and we also love reading those reviews. So if you wanna take a minute, and again, the easiest way to do that is just to hit one of the stars at the bottom of the app, and that will just give us a rating right there, or you can leave us a text review. We love reading those, so we just wanna invite you to do that.

[Jennifer] Another way you can support the podcast is by shopping on our online store, We have a ton of resources that we've wrote for you guys, including some prayer books, but also, I wanna take a minute to highlight our newest book that we wrote for you, Marriage After God. In fact, today's episode, we're gonna be sharing from Gary Thomas's book, but he read Marriage After God, and this is what he had to say about it: "Marriage After God is not your typical marriage book. "Rather than focus on the common symptoms "of marriage dysfunction and lack of intimacy, "Marriage After God dives into and focuses "on the root causes: the need for faith, biblical truth, "fellowship, ministry, and God-ordained vision. "The Smiths take the wise path of urging us "to grow a better marriage by focusing first "on growing closer to God."

[Aaron] Yeah, so we just wanna invite you to pick up a copy of that. We wrote it to encourage your marriage, to find out what God's purpose for your marriage is, and we believe God has a purpose for every one of us in the body, especially your marriage. So please pick up a copy of that book today, and we'd love to get it in your hands.

[Jennifer] All right, as always, we're gonna jump into our icebreaker question. Aaron, why don't you start by answering this? What is your favorite game or activity to do with the kids right now?

[Aaron] I think I really like wrestling on the ground with the kids. They all climb on top of me. Partly, it lets me lay down for a little bit. Or building forts with our huge, big couch pillows. I think that's awesome. With Elliott specifically, I like practicing drawing. We put on a YouTube show and learn how to draw a dragon or a dinosaur or something like that, and that's a lot of fun.

[Jennifer] Yeah, some other games that I would say we've been really into lately is Blokus or Blokus, I don't really know how to say that.

[Aaron] Oh yeah, I just played with that them.

[Jennifer] So that's super fun, super easy to catch onto, and we've been playing Battleship a lot.

[Aaron] Oh, that's a good one.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] But he gets frustrated when I win.

[Jennifer] Everybody gets frustrated when they don't win. So we're working through some of those things, but yeah, those are some games.

[Aaron] That was a good question.

[Jennifer] That we love with the kids right now.

[Aaron] So before we get into our topic, discussing whether or not we can fall out of love in our marriage, I wanna read a quote from Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas, on page 157. "The opposite of biblical love isn't hate; it's apathy. "To stop moving toward our spouse "is to stop loving him or her. "It's holding back from the very purpose of marriage."

[Jennifer] Well, I feel like that answers the question right there.

[Aaron] Yeah, and well, it's a great start to the conversation, because I feel like people might think, of course, yeah, you can't fall in and out of love, but that's kind of where our world's gone, in the secular world and in the Christian world, and we see it often in emails we get, in messages we get on our social media. We just thought it's a very pertinent topic to bring up with our communities. It's something that we've had to deal with in our own marriage, just feeling that like, well, maybe this isn't gonna work, maybe this isn't right, and just maybe dispel some of the lies about it, think biblically and clearly about it, so that those that might be feeling this way can think better and pursue God in the decision.

[Jennifer] Yeah. So, when I thought about this topic to discuss today, the first thing that came to my mind is we need to be aware of the things we're saying, the phrases that we use to describe the life that we're living, the things that we're choosing. And so I just kind of went back to the beginning of like, okay, so where did this phrase come from? What does it mean?

[Aaron] Yeah, 'cause we grew up, this is like.

[Jennifer] This is what we know.

[Aaron] I wanna fall in love. Everyone wants to fall in love.

[Jennifer] Yep, or people ask you, oh, when did you fall in love with each other?

[Aaron] Right, like it was a day.

[Jennifer] Yeah. So, I Googled where this phrase came from, and Wikipedia says this: "falling in love is the development of strong feelings "of attachment and love, usually toward another person. "The term is metaphorical, emphasizing that the process, "like the physical act of falling, is sudden, "uncontrollable, and leaves the lover in a vulnerable state, "similar to fall ill or fall into a trap."

[Aaron] I love how it uses those negative phrases.

[Jennifer] I know, I was gonna say, as I kept looking into this, I found other phrases like fall asleep or fall behind. Someone else likened it to a surprise, like falling down the stairs.

[Aaron] Yeah, there are all these negative connotations with falling, which is really unfortunate, that one of the most, supposed to be the most euphoric and most powerful and magical things that we get to experience is love with another person, and we've turned it into, with our common language and how we describe things, it's so weak, in my opinion.

[Jennifer] Yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna say. It kind of strips the beauty of one, knowing what true love is, and then choosing it, because here it's making you sound like it's just happening to you, that there's no control in any of it.

[Aaron] Yeah, and I think that one of the traps of the enemy, you know, falling into the trap, like you said, that's he's taken something so beautiful that God invented and created and something that he's given as a gift to his children, and boiled it down. You know, if he can change the terms and the words and the definitions, then he can change the meanings of thing. And so, I think that's the first thing that our listeners can start to think about, is if they fell in love, right, and I know people are really thinking, like, I think you're just going overboard. What's the big deal? It's just a phrase. But it's not just a phrase, because like you said, if we're not aware of the things that we're saying, we don't realize that we define things by the things we say. Words do have meaning, and if we say them over and over and over again, they have meaning, and if we believe them, like, if I believe we fell in love, then it's not hard to believe that we can fall out of love.

[Jennifer] Right.

[Aaron] Because the definition, it's something that happened to me, I had no control over it. We were just in this whirlwind, and oh my gosh, the passions, and you're beautiful, and I love you, and oh, we have similar things that we like, and oh, and the way you think, and you're so funny, and all these things, which are totally good things, and they totally add to my attraction to you or attraction to another person and draw us, and actually do invoke emotions in us and feelings. And those are all given to us by God. But if we boil down love to just those things, those feelings, then the moment those things change, the moment those things disappear, the moment those things that we used to be enamored by now bug us, because that happens. Like, oh, it was so cute the way you would say that one thing, and now that way you say that all the time really bugs me, and I don't like it.

[Jennifer] Yeah. So, here's the other just sad, sad part about all of this, is that in marriage, we come up against this very thing that you're talking about, is if things change. So let's say there's hard circumstances, or you really get to know each other after years and years of marriage, and there's just things like, as you said, bug you. If we say that we fell into love with one another and that goes back to this sudden thing that there's no control over, who's to say that we can't fall in love even after we're married?

[Aaron] Right.

[Jennifer] And someone else comes along, and no, I've done it again. I've fallen in love again, but not with you. That's dangerous.

[Aaron] Yeah, and you know what, I had no control over it. We've actually heard this. I'm sorry, I love you still, but this other person came along, and they're feeding my love tank.

[Jennifer] It becomes a justification for sin, and nobody's taking responsibility. That's shat I'm trying to get at.

[Aaron] Right, and I think that's what we wanna talk about in this, and where we're gonna try and go with this, is to take away the decision and the control and the thoughtfulness in love is to take away the power of the love in the first place, of what God's doing. The Bible says that God is love. So he invented it, he designed it. It's his creation. It's something that, something that he is love. It existed with him. And so for us to boil it, like, oh, I fell in love, oh, I fell out of love, it's something I go in and out of, and it's not a choice. It's just whatever I feel at the moment. And what's so dangerous about that is the Bible tells us to not operate in our feelings. That's what's called carnal. Our carnal flesh is our feelings, the chemical reactions in our brain, which is exactly what feelings are. You get a burst of oxytocin, and you get a burst of all these different hormones that are good hormones that God created us with, and we define something very spiritual with a very fleshly reaction. And I think that spiritual things definitely bring those emotional reactions, which is why they're good: God made it that way. But love's not defined by those things. And a perfect example is if we're thinking about falling in and out of love, or when things are hard, I must not be in love anymore, or they must not love me anymore, or maybe they've fallen out of love with me or we're falling out of love with each other, I just think of Christ on the cross, you know? He goes into the Garden of Gethsemane, and he prays, Lord, let this cup pass from me. And he's praying that the suffering he was about to partake, that he was about to be obedient to endure, was for his bride. And he's saying, I don't know if I can do this, but I'm not gonna choose. Lord, you chose. And his will was that he went to the cross, because salvation was at hand, for the body of Christ, for the world. And so, if we look at Christ, would he fall out of love when he's on the cross? He's like, oh, this is too hard. I just don't love them anymore. No, he loved us beyond what his flesh wanted, and that's exactly what I wanna talk about. The power of love goes way beyond how we feel, because there was times that you didn't feel in love with me.

[Jennifer] No, definitely. In those early years, when our circumstances were really hard, yeah, I didn't feel very much in love with you, and it even brought us to a point of seriously contemplating divorce and separation, but there were other factors involved. Walking in sin, just choosing to isolate from each other time and time again led to that in our marriage.

[Aaron] Yeah, we tried. We stayed together. We were friends, to an extent, and there was areas of our marriage, intimacy, sexual intimacy, that wasn't exactly how we wanted it to be. It was actually the opposite of what we wanted. And it led to thoughts in us, sinful thoughts, and I remember me thinking, man, I should have experimented before I got married. I should have had more partners before I got married.

[Jennifer] And I remember having thoughts of, well, maybe we're just not compatible, physically, emotionally, mentally. I just thought like, we're not for each other.

[Aaron] And wasn't there even a season where you looked outside of our marriage? You didn't go actually do anything, but you desired?

[Jennifer] Oh, for sure.

[Aaron] Another man, and your heart wasn't with me?

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] And that is what happens when how we feel is defining what we do.

[Jennifer] Yeah, and I wanna get to some of those things that come up, reasons why people would feel as though they fell out of love with one another, because I think it's good for us to acknowledge them and address them, because we're all experiencing this thing called marriage, and if we're not willing to confront the hard things, then maybe our hearts would be prone to wanna avoid them or not confront them, and that's not good.

[Aaron] Well, and before you get into that, I think the reason, again, going back of the beginning of this, of like, love being something that you fall into, it's accidental, it's I had no control over it, it leaves room, because that's what we believe about it, it leaves room for us to use that lack of control, like, it has nothing to do with me; therefore, when the things we're about to talk about come up, well, I'm just not in love anymore, and that, you know, that's what it is. You can't force me to love someone I don't love anymore. Unfortunate, but that's how it is. Thanks, God.

[Jennifer] And that it's his fault for making us wrong or something.

[Aaron] Yeah, or taking away the love or whatever it is, and now we have an excuse that's outside of us. Well, see, I mean, too bad I don't love him anymore. I would love to still love him, but it's just not working out. It's not where my heart's at anymore, and I'm moving on. And so it leaves a back door that you don't have to be responsible to go through. You just get brought through it, without any of your own control, when in reality, that's not true.

[Jennifer] Yeah, we want everyone to hear this right now. We have an obligation to each other.

[Aaron] It's called oneness. It's called a covenant. It's not just an earthly contract. It's not just like a, well, if you fulfill your end of the bargain, I'll fulfill mine. That's actually not what biblical marriage looks like, sounds like, smells like at all. It's a choice that we make to walk in, 'cause Christ chose to walk in his relationship, going to the cross regardless of how we responded to him. And that's our example. It's exactly the picture we get in Ephesians five. Like, hey, bride, you're the church. Hey, husband, you're Christ. You're the picture of Christ in this marriage, and this is how you act. And so, as long as it's something that happens to us, we have no control over it, we have no responsibility to it.

[Jennifer] So, I've gotta bring this up real quick. This isn't in our notes, and it's not the direction we were gonna take it, but I think it's important to ask, and so I'm just gonna put it out there, and then maybe you guys can have a conversation about this with your spouses. We can even talk about it later. You talked about love being a choice. You talked about it being a powerful experience and not something that we don't have control over or based on feelings. My question is, do we fall in and out of love with God? Because I would look at Christian culture and say there's a lot of people that base their relationship with God off of how they feel.

[Aaron] And what they get.

[Jennifer] Or what they get out of it.

[Aaron] Yeah, what they believe they deserve.

[Jennifer] And so you see this tendency of flowing in and out of God during seasons of, I'm for him, I'm not, I'm for him, I'm not. And so I think that it's important to consider this question in light of our relationship with him.

[Aaron] Well, before we move on to some of the reasons why people might feel like they fell out of love, let's talk about how we fell in and out of love with God, because of our marriage, because of the things that we were feeling and going through and experiencing, the hardships within our sexual relationship, the hardships with the sins that we were choosing to walk in and being unrepentant of, and walking in total immaturity and bitterness and anger that man, you had your own relationship dealings with God where you were just angry at him 'cause you were like, God, I deserve a good marriage.

[Jennifer] Yeah, I felt like I did all the right things to equal a good marriage, like it was some sort of formula, so when I didn't get it, I was mad at him, because I believed that he was powerful enough to just make everything perfect, give me everything I want, and it be beautiful, and I believed this. I truly believed that. It wasn't just for my benefit that I had a perfect marriage, that it would be so that we can do ministry together for God.

[Aaron] It was good reasons, yeah.

[Jennifer] Yeah, there's always good reasons.

[Aaron] Well, and we wanna be happy. We wanna have joy in our marriage. But this relationship with God was built on what he owed you. And like you said, you fell in and out of love with God the same way you fell in and out of love with me. I couldn't give you what you thought you deserved in a husband. I wasn't giving it to you. It's not that I couldn't give it to you. I was treating you the way you thought you deserved to be treated. I wasn't acting the way you thought I should act. I wasn't speaking the way you thought I should speak. And so your love with me was conditional. It was based on those things. Your love with God was conditional. And I was the same way. I thought that, all I wanted was a wife that I could love and be with and have sex with and enjoy and that would go and do amazing things for God together, and none of that felt like it was real. I was like, okay, God. I wait for marriage, I save myself, I try and be pure, which, in reality, I wasn't. My addiction to pornography, my other things that I was dealing with. I had a picture of who I was. I thought I was better than I was. And then I'm like, God, you owe me this thing, and you're not giving it to me. And so my relationship with God was transactional. Like, hey, I did this thing; now you do this thing. What are you doing? So I think that's a great thing you brought up, that we think our relationship with God is something outside of what we choose and something that happens to us, or our feelings. Like, I feel close to God, which is so dangerous, because I would imagine there's times when Paul, naked and beat in prison, did not feel close to God. I would imagine when Joseph was in the pit after being thrown in there by his brothers and then sold into slavery and then lied about by the wife and then put in prison and forgotten about by the baker, or the cupbearer, I believe there was times he did not feel close to God, but the truth would be is God was close and was doing something very specific in all of those situations.

[Jennifer] Greater than what they could even have imagined.

[Aaron] And so, we don't get pictures in those stories of them saying where's God, where are you. God was close, whether they felt him close or not. And that is the reality, that God is so close to us. He's not far off, even when we feel like he's far off.

[Jennifer] Was he close to us when we were enduring those four hard years of our marriage?

[Aaron] He was probably closer then. When I look back, I'm like, oh, God was there every moment.

[Jennifer] But did it feel like it?

[Aaron] No, it didn't feel like it. It felt like I was praying and he was just ignoring me. It felt like I was being picked on, or that he was being vindictive, like laughing at me. That's how I felt sometimes. But that's not true at all. So just like we're talking about this falling in and out of love, what I felt about God was false. My feelings were lying to me.

[Jennifer] What changed? How did you go from that to being able to choose to love God and remain faithful to him, no matter what?

[Aaron] Him confronting me with the truth that what he says is true and what I feel is false. I brought up Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. He brought that story to my attention, and said, look what Jesus did for you. And then he was like, are you not willing then to do the very little thing of just loving your wife, even if you can't get what you want from her? Like, what it cost Christ on the cross is infinitely heavier than what it's gonna cost you to say yes to your bride and keep going. And he just revealed the fallacy in me that my feelings are true and that that's how I'm gonna dictate where I'm gonna go and the direction I go and what I believe, and they're wrong. The Bible tells us, and we'll get to that scripture in a minute, just to not walk in the flesh, but to walk in the Spirit.

[Jennifer] Let's talk more about that. So, we're gonna first go through a brief list of why people feel as though they "fall," air quotes here, "out of love."

[Aaron] So going back to things that don't feel good, and especially when it's in conjunction with your relationship with your spouse. So tough times.

[Jennifer] Yeah, hard circumstances.

[Aaron] Like, financial situations and pain and suffering and confusion and those sorts of things, crazy things like loss of children. The hard things can immediately make us not feel good. And you know what? When we don't feel good, Christ wants us to lean on him. He wants us to have his strength and his peace, you know, that surpasses all understanding, and when we don't go to God for those things and when we look to our spouse to fulfill them, which we did that.

[Jennifer] Yeah, it's so dangerous. I remember feeling so disappointed in you and in our relationship, because you couldn't do the things that I wanted you to be able to do, which only Christ could do.

[Aaron] To fulfill those desires in your heart or to take away the fears that you had, the insecurities, and only God gets to play that role in our life, because you know what, I'm a human.

[Jennifer] Yeah, you will fail me.

[Aaron] And I remember I tell you this, I even told you this when I asked you to be my wife. I said I'm going to fail you.

[Jennifer] Yeah, I should have listened.

[Aaron] I warned you. I gave you a little, what do you call it.

[Jennifer] Framework, I don't know.

[Aaron] Yeah, I gave you a pre-warning. This is what you're getting into.

[Jennifer] Okay, so yeah, tough times definitely. Needs not being met. So I'm over here thinking, no, I need this from you and being convinced that I can't continue on in my part until I get what I need.

[Aaron] Right, so in our situation specifically, we couldn't have sex.

[Jennifer] Yeah, it was painful.

[Aaron] And that was very painful.

[Jennifer] For me.

[Aaron] And I'm thinking, in my mind and in my heart, in my spirit, okay, the one thing that my spouse is supposed to be able to give me directly to me physically is sex, and she can't give it to me. Well then, I'm validated in my sin over here, or I'm allowed to be angry like this, or God, how dare you? And so my love for you was dictated by what you can do for me or what you're not doing for me, and vice versa. You put me on that pedestal of holding you up emotionally and being strong for you when you weren't strong, which husbands should do, but I'm not the main source of that.

[Jennifer] Right.

[Aaron] I can never fulfill that. That's called idolatry. We can actually put our spouses in a position of God, and what happens is because they're not God, you immediately translate that, we translate that to, oh, they must not love me.

[Jennifer] But God is love.

[Aaron] God is love, yeah.

[Jennifer] Your spouse isn't love, although your spouse is called to love you. God is love. He's the only one that can truly fulfill that.

[Aaron] So needs not being met spiritually, emotionally, physically, and I just wanna mention that there are some relationships. I think of veterans that have been hurt physically, or mentally, and they might not be able to fulfill a certain marital role, physically and emotionally and mentally. Does that mean they don't love you? Does that mean you've fallen out of love? No, that's a situation that God's allowed to happen, and that has to be navigated through the Word of God, through the Holy Spirit and patience and perseverance and recognize that those things don't define whether or not you're in love with your spouse or not. And that's a reality for some people. There's some people that will permanently never be able to have sex.

[Jennifer] And that's just one thing.

[Aaron] That's one thing, yeah.

[Jennifer] There's other people who can't walk or can't talk. There's a lot of things.

[Aaron] There's people that deal with postpartum depression, wives, moms that go through postpartum depression and might not be able to give emotionally, and that's gonna take a husband to step up more, be like, well, I'm gonna love more right now. I'm not gonna make them feel like I'm abandoning them and skipping out.

[Jennifer] Yeah. Okay, so another one would be desiring a different kind of life because of unmet expectations, and you kind of touched on this before, but I struggled with this. I felt like I had these expectations of what marriage should be like.

[Aaron] Yeah, what our life should be like, where we should be.

[Jennifer] And after years of not receiving that or them being unmet, I started desiring a different kind of life. And that can easily feed a wandering soul.

[Aaron] Right, so we fell in love, and we individually had unique pictures of what our relationship would look like, what our life would look like, what our marriage would look like. And so what we do is, well, so I have this picture, picture A, and my marriage is picture Z. Oh, we must not be in love. This must not be right. Something's wrong here. Let's throw this out, start over. And so we look over the fence, or we look other places. So, and this leads to happiness.

[Jennifer] Desiring happiness.

[Aaron] Desiring happiness. The Bible doesn't promise happiness, but being a Christian should guarantee, if we choose it, joy.

[Jennifer] Right, which is more powerful.

[Aaron] Which is more powerful, because Paul, when he was naked and beat and in prison, had joy. All the disciples, all of the missionaries and martyrs had joy amidst terrible things. But happiness is not something necessarily promised. Now, happiness can be a fruit of joy, but does lack of happiness equate to lack of love? Like, we're no longer in love, I'm not happy anymore. I wanna speak about this happiness for a second, Jennifer.

[Jennifer] I was just gonna say, I hear it all the time. People say, doesn't God want be to be happy?

[Aaron] Yeah, well not just doesn't God. They actually, and I don't know who has taught them this, but they literally, they start their message off to us about why they're leaving their husband with saying, God wants me to be happy, and I'm not happy. Therefore, I'm leaving. And so, what they've done is they've literally turned their disobedience and their sin into approval by God, because they've equated happiness to God's will. And that's not true.

[Jennifer] Is there a scripture in the Bible that says God wants us to be happy?

[Aaron] No. Not to my knowledge. But there's plenty about joy in all circumstances. The joy of the Lord is our strength, and that's something that can come amidst, so if happiness is God's will for us, take that truth, take that gospel, to all of the people suffering through terminal cancer.

[Jennifer] Or famine.

[Aaron] Or yeah, hunger, or loss of children or worse. I can't even come up with all the situations that a Christian might go through, or even a person, and go to them and saying, hey, God wants you to be happy, and then the moment they're not happy, God doesn't love me, or I'm outside God's will. It's a false gospel. The happiness is good, and it comes. But I think joy, the Bible talks of joy, which is a fruit of the spirit. Happiness is not a fruit of the spirit. So if we equate, again, if we take words and we equal them to other things, like happiness equals love, happiness equals God's will, the moment we're not happy, boom, we're no longer in love, we're not in God's will. We can make all sorts of crazy decisions based off of that equation. And it's just wrong.

[Jennifer] So, moving down the list, we have two more. One is just experiencing overall discontentment in life.

[Aaron] Right, I'm not happy with what I have. This isn't what I want, that I want more.

[Jennifer] Just constantly, like you're playing that mental reel over and over and over again about all the things that make you not content, and then desiring a pain-free or comfortable life, which I think everybody, at the root of their heart, wants a pain-free life. But is that a reality?

[Aaron] It's not that we need to pursue that. I don't think that's what our goal is in life. But if our goal is in our marriage, if that's our definition of a good, healthy, loving marriage, 100% of marriages are gonna be let down. But that's why we see such a high divorce rate in the church and in the world, because we've defined love with all of these terms. Comfort, happiness, fulfillment, contentment. And if I don't feel those things, boom, I must not be in love anymore.

[Jennifer] Okay, so what's the bottom line?

[Aaron] The bottom line is love was never intended to be just a feeling. God gave us these feelings as a gift to accompany our love, but when those feelings disappeared, love doesn't disappear. It's called the honeymoon phase. Like, you're enamored with your spouse. Everything's new and fresh. But what happens when it's not new wand fresh? What happens when life's boring?

[Jennifer] Or hard.

[Aaron] What happens when life's hard? Love in this situations should grow.

[Jennifer] And endure.

[Aaron] Yeah, because they endure. The relationship turns into one of stamina, endurance, perseverance.

[Jennifer] I Corinthians 13:7 says love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Not some things, not the few things that I can handle. It's all things. So if we say that we love one another, we have to be able to bear all things and endure all things and have that kind of perseverance.

[Aaron] And it comes down to, that's what Christ did. He endured the cross, because he loved us. And that's amazing. Even now in the church age, in the age that we live in now where God's grace and mercy is just poured out on the world and he's being patient, it says that his patience and kindness is to lead us to repentance, talking of love. Why doesn't he just strike us all down, because we are sinners, you know? He's righteous; we're not. But he's patient with us, and his love for us is in such a way that he shows us by example of how we should love, in forgiveness and patience and endurance, because that's what Christ did on the cross. He took the sins of the world, that anyone who believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. That is love, and if Christ can love that way, and this is what God showed me, is if Christ can love you like this, Aaron, what has your wife ever done that's worse than what you or the world has done to me? Nothing. Literally it doesn't matter what you do to me. It's not unforgivable. So I guess I would just say, if love is based on something that we have no control over, something that happens to us, if love is a feeling, then we're literally basing the most beautiful thing that God has ever given us, love, which he is love, it's who he is, and we boiled it down to a fleshly thing. Like, that is a fleeting, like, oh, some might get it, some might not. And I think we should rather look at love as a muscle that needs to be strengthened.

[Jennifer] I like that, exercised.

[Aaron] Or, actually, here's a better analogy. Love is a seed. You plant a seed, and then you nurture it and you grow it. Our love started, I should say. We didn't fall in love. Our love started back when we were dating, when we were learning each other.

[Jennifer] We were attracted to one another.

[Aaron] We were attracted.

[Jennifer] We chose to spend time with one another.

[Aaron] Yeah, back then, our love was so, if you think about it, our love was so immature, because it was based on very vain things, how we looked, how we talked, how we spent time with each other, things that made us laugh. And now, our love is based on.

[Jennifer] So much more.

[Aaron] Oh my, so much more. Surviving hard things, flourishing in hard things, renewing in the way we think about each other, communication, knowledge.

[Jennifer] Ministering to our kids. Ministering to others.

[Aaron] Yeah, having children and learning how to become one in our parenting. So our love now is built, it's growing. I wouldn't say it's a big sycamore tree or something. But I would say it's a tree now, where it once was just this seed that could easily be stamped out if we didn't take care of it. So I think that is a more accurate way to take a picture, is that love was something we planted, we chose to plant. Hey, we're gonna take a risk on this seed. We're gonna love this, and let's grow it. So then, if that's the case, then "falling out of love," air quotes again, is really choosing to let the tree die.

[Jennifer] Right, which, I mean, going back to that quote by Gary Thomas from Sacred Marriage, biblical love isn't hate; it's apathy.

[Aaron] Letting it die.

[Jennifer] Letting it die.

[Aaron] Stop watering it, stop feeding it, stop giving it sunlight, smother it, and it can even be worse than that, intentionally harming the love because you want out, because you're not happy, and now doing very hateful, wicked things within the marriage.

[Jennifer] Being disrespectful, letting your anger lash out.

[Aaron] Cheating.

[Jennifer] Cheating.

[Aaron] Yeah, unfaithfulness with your heart, eyes, physically.

[Jennifer] All things that are lack of self-control, because you're not exercising that muscle of self-control.

[Aaron] So here's another quote from Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas, and it says this: "Christian love is an aggressive movement, "an active commitment. "In reality, we choose where to place our affections," which goes back to, are we gonna choose to nurture our love seed? Feels so weird. But this tree that we're growing together, as we're being weaved together and we're growing this love. And I just love that picture of that. It's an aggressive movement, an active commitment, that we are not going to just whimsically and apathetically see if love continues on without us doing anything, that we're gonna recognize that it's no, no, I'm going to choose again to love you today, and then when something happens, actually, I'm gonna choose right now to love you anyway.

[Jennifer] Yeah, and I like that. This quote, you know, when it says in reality, we choose where to place our affections, I think sometimes we can choose to place our affections on what we see outside the marriage.

[Aaron] So, let's just give 'em some practical ways, 'cause now we've dispelled it. You don't fall in and out of love. It's a lie the enemy uses to break up marriages all the time, and as mature Christians, we're gonna pursue loving our spouses the biblical way and saying, yes, Lord, I'm gonna choose to love, because you are love, and I wanna love like this. So what are some practical things that the couples listening can start thinking about, start pursuing and saying, oh, we're gonna invest in this seed that we've planted, at whatever point that seed was planted.

[Jennifer] Okay, so first thing I would say is intimacy. I think I had this idea in our marriage that intimacy just happened, and it was something that was natural.

[Aaron] It was always gonna be magical.

[Jennifer] Yeah, I came to find out, it's actually something that needs to be planned for and prepared for.

[Aaron] Sought after.

[Jennifer] And requires intentionality. And so, I would say, be intentional in pursuing one another in those ways. And intimacy is a lot of different things. It's not just physical. It's also in the way that you communicate and just being thoughtful of one another.

[Aaron] Yeah, but intimacy, the physical intimacy cannot be neglected.

[Jennifer] Sure, so important.

[Aaron] But the emotional intimacy can't be neglected either.

[Jennifer] Either, yeah.

[Aaron] The Bible, I just wanted to bring this up, it uses the word knew or knowledge when it comes to physical intimacy in the Bible. It says so-and-so knew so-and-so, and it's talking about sex. This intimacy we're talking about, it's radical transparency, radical openness, that you're not afraid to be naked emotionally, naked physically, naked spiritually before your spouse, and that you know each other, and that's a lifelong pursuit. So, and that combats falling out of love, or feeling like you're falling out of love, or in the truth, choosing to not love anymore.

[Jennifer] Yeah, and if you do feel like, you know, not that you're apathetic towards one another, but that you just have some isolating tendencies going on in your marriage, be the first one to initiate intimacy.

[Aaron] Yeah, go open those doors, go open those windows. Let light in.

[Jennifer] Okay, another one is have an eternal perspective and a hope that fuels your heart so that you can persevere. Having a hope for why we're doing this thing called marriage and what we have to look forward to changed the way that we were able to persevere in our relationship.

[Aaron] Yeah, and so recognizing that my wife is also my sister in the Lord. Like, the Bible tells us how to interact with our brothers and sisters in Christ. Then I get to see her and say, well, I'm gonna treat her well. She's my closest neighbor, so I'm gonna love her as myself. I'm gonna use the gifts that God's given me to bless her and to serve her. And so if we recognize that, that we are both part of the body, then we're not gonna mistreat and take advantage of and do things that we wouldn't do to another believer. So, another one is discipline yourself in walking faithfully and humbly.

[Jennifer] So real quick, I just wanna read one another quote. I know this is a heavy Gary Thomas episode.

[Aaron] Well, this book was hugely influential on our marriage.

[Jennifer] Yeah, if you guys haven't read Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas, you should definitely go grab a copy. But on page 156, it says this: "One of the great spiritual challenges for any Christian "is to become less self-absorbed. "We are born intensely self-focused. "The discipline of Christian marriage "calls us into the Christian reality of sharing "and enjoying fellowship in a uniquely intimate way. "Maintaining an interest in and empathy for someone else "is by no means an easy discipline to maintain, "but it is a vital one. "It is a skill that must be learned." I love this quote, because I think it's so important to recognize that there is discipline required of us, and there's an obligation, like I said earlier, to one another, to love one another, but to also enjoy fellowship with each other, which is what Gary's saying right here, and to maintain an interest for, an empathy for each other, and again, he says this isn't easy, but it is vital, and it's something that we need to learn. Like you said, it's a muscle that we should be exercising.

[Aaron] Yeah, a lot of times, the Bible uses the term walk in love. So it's something that you walk out on a daily basis. In I John, it says practice righteousness. So these are things that we get to practice toward each other, with each other, for each other, on a daily basis, on a moment by moment. And even if you're in a super, super hard situation and season of your marriage, you can right now choose to walk in love with your spouse.

[Jennifer] And truly, this is walking in maturity. This is what makes us mature, is by choosing to walk this way.

[Aaron] Yeah, so again, walking in maturity. I would say be okay with hardship, and ask God how it can be used to mature you, to mature us? So God, this season's hard. God, I don't feel in love. I don't feel close to my spouse. Help me, show me how I should see correctly. Show me where I can change. Show me how I can love my wife still, love my husband still. How can I serve them? Help me do it in your Spirit. And then another one is the last one, actually, is recognize there's something greater at risk. It's what we talk about in the Marriage After God book, is that our marriages are meant for more than just happily ever after. Having a good, strong, healthy, mature, growing, thriving, loving, intimate marriage isn't for that alone. That's not the end. It's the means to the end. The end is that we are witnesses for Christ, that we are preaching the gospel with our words and our lives, that our marriages are pictures of the gospel to the world, that the husband represents Christ, that the wife represents the church, that their relationship represents an unconditional love that Christ had for his church, and how we interact with each other and how we raise our children and how we treat each other. And so, and not just that, but in I Timothy chapter three, it talks about the ministry of an overseer in a church and how it's a noble task, it's a noble thing for any believer to pursue, any man in the church, and it talks about having one wife and managing their home well, and it says, how can you manage the household of God if you can't manage your own home, right? If there's no self-control within me, if there's no love between me and my wife, if my children don't honor me and cherish me, those are things that the Bible says are results of how we choose to walk with our spouse. And our authority, our power, our message gets diluted or destroyed when we don't love that way. When love is something that we can just fall out of, what it essentially is saying is God can just fall out of love. Like, oh, today I don't love you anymore. And that's just false. He is love. He cannot not love us. And so, we need to show that. And so the greater thing that's at risk is the gospel. And when we don't have a correct understanding and definition of love in our marriage and what that looks like, we show an incorrect gospel to the world. And we need to recognize that.

[Jennifer] So, the beginning of this episode started with can you fall out of love in marriage. That wouldn't be the right way to say it. It would be, are you choosing to not love your spouse anymore? And so I think that this is a really important topic, and it's something that we should address, even if maybe you're not feeling this way. If you feel like you love your spouse and you're walking the way you should be biblically, I think it's still important to address some of these things and these practical things that we've brought up and just see, you know, evaluate your marriage and see, are you walking the way that God wants you to be walking, and are you choosing love, regardless of your circumstances and regardless of anything else that's going on?

[Aaron] Yeah, and maybe you're not, like Jennifer said, not at that place of not in love anymore, but are you choosing apathy? Are you just not caring?

[Jennifer] Are you being lazy?

[Aaron] Yeah, are you being lazy? And I think that's something that we should be aware of and repent of if we are. If we're being lazy in our marriage, then we're not loving. We're kind of being self-focused and hoping that our husband or our wife is gonna love us the way we wanna be loved, but we're not gonna give the love the way we wanna be loved. I just don't think that's the way a Christian should walk, and I think we need to, I mean, I'm guilty of this sometimes and need to change. Like, I'm being lazy, I'm gonna step up, I love you. Let's work on this, let's grow, let's water this tree.

[Jennifer] I love it. Okay, we wanna invite you guys to join us in prayer. Dear Lord, may we always choose love. May we always have hearts that are motivated by love to be unified, pursuing intimacy and peace in marriage. Thank you for equipping us and empowering us by your Holy Spirit to choose to love unconditionally and sacrificially. We pray against our flesh from getting in the way, and we pray against our selfish ways. Please continue to sanctify us and transform us so that we would be more like you. Protect our marriage from the threats of the enemy and his evil desire to tear us down. Lord, please help us to be unified as one and help us to love each other in the way we interact with each other every day. May our commitment to remain steadfast in our love for each other glorify you in our marriage. In Jesus's name, amen.

[Aaron] Amen. Hey, we just wanna thank everyone for listening this week, and we pray that this episode blessed you. We pray that it's gonna cause some good conversations, and we look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Jun 12, 2019
It's Time To Say Yes To God

Will you consider being a Marriage After God Movement Starter and join us to encourage marriages all over the world to say yes to God? We need you!

Who are we looking for to join the movement:

  • -Passionate Christ followers.
  • Marriages who are ready to chase boldly after God’s will together.
  • Those that are ready to help start a marriage after God movement.

What Do Members Of The Movement Get?

1. 52 Must-Have Date Night Conversation Starter For A Marriage After God
2. Comprehensive Marriage, Parenting and Working together Resources that we love and trust
3. "How To Dream Together" Future Visioning Worksheet
4. Your names and photo on the Marriage After God Movement Starters Page On Our Website

Join the Marriage After God Movement!

Jun 05, 2019
MAG 016: Chasing After God Together

Join the movement!

Quote From Marriage After God Book

“As men and women, husbands and wives, marriages that claim the name of Christ, and desire to walk in His will and His ways, we must never forget that our Lord and Savior is coming back for us, His bride, and He will do so in a miraculous way. While we are waiting for His return, we must let this knowledge of His testimony and second coming be the fuel that ignites in us an unquenchable fire to boldly chase after God’s will for our marriages. The beautiful and imminent return of our King is the very thing that motivates us to move beyond our comfort into the amazing, extraordinary, powerful, world-changing, “good works” that God has prepared for each one of us since before time began.”


Dear Lord, We pray we would never stop chasing boldly after You! As husbands and wives who love you, our prayer is that we would impact this world and build your kingdom for your name sake! Thank you for equipping us and empowering us through your Holy Spirit to do all of the wonderful works that you have for us to do so that your will and purpose is fulfilled. We love you Lord! We praise you and we glorify your name! May our marriages reflect your divine love and May your gospel be spread! We pray our hearts would be sensitive to your leading as you show us the ministry work you have for our marriages to accomplish. In Jesus’ name, amen!

May 29, 2019
MAG 015: How We Are Stronger Together In Marriage

Your Marriage Has An Impact!!! Join the Marriage After God movement today.

"A husband and wife chasing after God knows every aspect of their marriage is for proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ, they are not ashamed to share about it, and they are confident in the impact they are making in the world around them." - Marriage After God book

"The two of you serving God together will always make a greater impact than the two of you could make alone striving for your own accomplishments and happiness."

  • Marriage After God book


Dear Lord, Thank you for the gift of companionship. Marriage is such an intimate friendship that blesses us. We desire to draw closer to each other and to use this intimate bond to bless your name. Thank you for being intertwined in our relationship and at the center of it. You are the reason we are stronger together. Please continue to strengthen us as a cord of 3 strands. We pray that you would use us to do hard things as we build up your body and build up your kingdom. Be our strength as we persevere. May we be intentional in encouraging each other in marriage so that we do not grow weary. We pray against the enemy. We pray against his evil ways. Thank you for being our refuge and our shield. Thank you for equipping us and empowering us to stay strong and to fulfill your will. May your will be done in us and through our marriage.In Jesus’ name, amen!

May 22, 2019
MAG 014: Ordinary People With Extraordinary Marriages

Join the Marriage After God movement today:

"Exposing how God is at work in the world reminds us of who God is and what can be done when we say yes to Him." - Marriage After God


Dear Lord, Thank You for using ordinary people to do such extraordinary things in this world. It is only by Your power that we are able to say Yes with courage and do all that You ask us to do. We pray we would be quick to say yes to You and trust You to help us. No matter what You invite us to do, may we never forget or neglect to do the things You have already commanded us to do in Your Word. Help us to be faithful and obedient people. We pray our marriage would be used by You to make an impact in this world and to draw people’s hearts closer to Yours. We pray our marriage would be a gift to You, blessing Your name. We pray our marriage would reflect Your amazing love. We pray for an extraordinary marriage and we ask You to use us in extraordinary ways for Your names sake. May You be glorified through us. In Jesus’ name, amen!

May 15, 2019
MAG 013: The Power OF Dreaming Together In Marriage w/ Isaac & Angie Tolpin from Courageous Parenting Podcast

Find out exactly WHY God brought you and your spouse together!

Quote From Marriage After God

"Dreaming together is an exercise that is important for every marriage after God to participate in. Setting goals and casting a vision for the future strengthens the bond between a husband and wife, stirring up hope for what may come."

"Casting a vision together for the future of your marriage is an intimate experience where hope for the future stimulates perseverance for today."


Dear Lord, We pray we would be husbands and wives who dream together. We pray the dreams and the goals that we consider are ones that you put in our hearts. We desire to be used by you to fulfill your purposes. We want to build your kingdom and not our own. May we remember to submit our plans to you always. If there are things that we dream up that need to wait or need to be pushed aside, please help us to be humble. Help us to let go of any pride so that we don’t pursue what we want but instead only what you want. May we experience intimacy in marriage as we intentionally consider all that you have for us. We also pray we would have fun as we do this as a team for your glory! In Jesus’ name, amen!


[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God,

[Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

[Aaron] And today we're in part 13 of the Marriage After God series and we're gonna be talking with Isaac and Angie Tolpin about dreaming together. Welcome to the marriage After God Podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.

[Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife.

[Aaron] And I'm Aaron also known as Husband Revolution.

[Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade.

[Aron] And so far, we have four young children.

[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media.

[Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day.

[Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary, one full of life.

[Aaron] Love

[Jennifer] And power

[Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God.

[Jennifer] Together.

[Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we choose boldly after God's will for our life together.

[Jennifer] This is Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] So, we just wanted to take a moment and just ask you guys to leave us a review. That's just one way that other people will be able to find the Marriage After God podcast and spread the good news. So, if you could just take a moment and leave us a review, you could leave a star rating review or comment review and the comments are great too because they always encourage us. So thank you guys, for those of you who have already done that.

[Aaron] And the reason we're doing this series is to promote our new book, Marriage After God. And if you go pick up a copy today that would just make us feel so blessed, is the reason we're doing all these interviews, all these episodes. And it's also how you can support us. And I hope that this book blesses you guys and we wrote it for you.

[Jennifer] So today we have our good friends Angie and Isaac Tolpin from the Courageous Parenting podcast. Thank you guys for joining us.

[Isaac] So great to be here.

[Angie] Yeah, we're really excited to support you guys.

[Isaac] And we love the book.

[Aaron] Wow.

[Isaac] Yeah.

[Angie] It's awesome.

[Aaron] Thank you.

[Jennifer] Well, we just wanted to take a minute right here and just have you introduce yourself to everyone listening. So maybe share how long you been married, how many kids you have, and what you guys do.

[Isaac] I'll start off with 19 years. It's been an incredible journey. How many kids Angie?

[Angie] We have eight.

[Isaac] So and we're in ministry

[Angie] And

[Aaron] Awesome, so you guys have been doing ministry for a long time but now you guys are more specifically doing it together online with this podcast with your website. How did we meet? How did you guys meet because we do fellowship with you guys. A lot of the people we've been interviewing, we actually go to church with. So people like why do they know all these people, well? They go to our church but we met before gone just together

[Angie] Yes we did. I think it was when, it was just years ago when Jen and I met because of Redeeming Childbirth. And she was pregnant with Olive at the time.

[Aaron] And Redeeming Childbirth is a book you wrote about childbirth and redeeming it with a biblical mindset.

[Angie] It's kind of a discipleship tool for women because I cover topics that normal pregnancy books don't cover like pain, fear, marriage from a biblical perspective--

[Isaac] Yeah the spiritual side of it.

[Angie] Yeah, how to walk through pregnancy, childbirth, postpartum and young motherhood.

[Jennifer] Yeah, and we had just moved to Bend you guys had just moved to Bend and so we met up for coffee and that that was the beginning.

[Isaac] It's been a great journey.

[Angie] It really has.

[Aaron] Yeah, it is, we know how small the world is and how close you can become with someone that you didn't know before, and now you're like, I knew I feel like I've known you forever.

[Angie] Now, we are like family.

[Jennifer] Okay, so after we share this next story, everyone's gonna wanna be you guys as friends. This is how awesome you are. So we just celebrated an anniversary, our 12th anniversary and we didn't have plans and we're gonna go to dinner and Aaron's like, well, let's invite another couple and you guys were right there. We wanted to spend time with you. And so we invited you to go to dinner and--

[Aaron] To our anniversary dinner.

[Jennifer] Yeah and it was gonna be awesome but we didn't know you guys on the way over had prepared questions for us to think about in this year.

[Aaron] You use to like what's that game the marriage show where you, the Newlyweds Game? You guys, it's kind of that, you guys asked us all these awesome questions. And it made our date night, it was not just a double date where we just chatted, it was like so much fun.

[Angie] It was.

[Isaac] That means way we answered those questions,

[Jennifer] So is that like normal for you guys or a special?

[Isaac] That was the first time plus, you know what, the---

[Angie] So, it was just a special.

[Isaac] You're special and anniversaries are so special.

[Jennifer] That's true and what a great way to celebrate. And we just love that, it's gonna be a standout one for me, I know that. But I had to share that because I think it was super thoughtful. And for those listening, if you're gonna double date on someone else's anniversary, you should do that. It's time we say, we've got a bunch of questions for you.

[Jennifer] Okay, so this leads me into the icebreaker question for today. And it came from one of your guys as questions that you asked us.

[Aaron] I think it was the first one you asked us.

[Jennifer] So here's the question and it's for you guys to answer. If your spouse was a superhero, who would they be? So you're answering this about each other.

[Isaac] Why do you kick it off honey?

[Angie] I was thinking about this and I think I choose the whole popular Captain America because when I met when Isaac--

[Aaron] His fist pumping right now.

You know, that's right. When Issac and I, 20 years ago, when I met him, he was a new believer and had become a new creation like how Steve Rogers turns into the new creation and then he's just this man of vision that wants to do what's right. And he's a leader that people follow. So there's just a lot of qualities, and he doesn't hide behind a mask. So that, there's the boom.

[Jennifer] I love that.

Real deal.




[Isaac] Well, that's cool, I think you're Wonder Woman. Because you are pure.


Yes. And your middle name is Crystal, which means what, honey?

[Angie] It means brilliantly clear. Or pure.

[Isaac] Angie, you're really good at getting the truth out of people.

That's true.

Right, she's right.

[Jennifer] She is drastic, it's true

[Isaac] Exactly, that's all truth, she cares about justice.

[Angie] That's true.

[Aaron] And she cares about truth. And you have an unbelievable ability to do many things at once which everybody says you're not supposed to be able to do.

[Angie] You truly are a super mom.

[Isaac] A super mom, that's right.

[Aaron] Super mom, it's new superhero I don't know if that show would go very far today. Okay, so Jennifer.

[Jennifer] Sorry guys.

[Aaron] So Jennifer, what would your superhero be for me?

[Jennifer] Okay, so just so everyone knows when we were sitting there that night, the whole time, I was thinking about my answer for you. I was sitting there thinking, please don't say I'm Hulk. Please don't say I'm Hulk. Because out of all the superheroes I was just thinking that's the one that's not like attractive, and he's big and he's angry and I don't wanna be Hulk. And what comes flying out of Aaron's mouth, I think Jen would be Hulk.

[Aaron] I did say that.

[Jennifer] So, anyways--

[Aaron] But for good reasons, not because you're big and green, and angry. Because you have strength that comes out of you when you need it. And you're smart, and you're intelligent. Now, those were the qualities I was trying to get out of Bruce Banner, okay?

[Jennifer] Thank you And then, what did I say for you? Oh, I said, Dr. Strange because you have--

[Aaron] A strange and--

[Jennifer] Yeah, you have gifted discernment and you you know things like--

[Aaron] Yeah, weird things, yeah, weird.

[Jennifer] Yeah, that's true.

[Aaron] There we go, okay,

[Jennifer] Fun little question to ask. You guys can ask each other those listening. It's just fun, I like it, I like ice breakers.

[Aaron] So why don't we so as we get into the all the questions we're gonna ask the Tolpins, our good friends. Why don't you read the quote from chapter 13 of the Marriage After God and then we'll get into that.

[Jennifer] Okay, it says, dreaming together is an exercise that is important for every marriage after God to participate in, setting goal and casting a vision for the future strengthens the bond between a husband and wife stirring up hope for what may come.

[Aaron] Awesome, how does that, does that sound right? Because you guys are dreamers. You guys are excellent at planning. It's when we thought about this chapter, we're like, oh, we have to have the Tolpins

[Jennifer] They are like professional goal setters.

[Aaron] The ones we interview about this because you are planners and goal setters and dreamers. I don't think you know how to have small dreams. You only know like large, big, like--

[Angie] I'd say Isaac definitely is a bigger dreamer than I am and so a lot of times I find myself running as fast as possible to keep up.

[Isaac] And sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not.

That's right.


[Angie] So we've learned over the years to be able to tell where each other are at and be there to support each other, it's been--

[Isaac] But I think it's vital as a marriage to have vision, we are called to have vision and to look ahead, otherwise, we just get sucked into the circumstances of the day and stuck in the mundane. And it's important to have vision.

[Angie] And there isn't a lot of growth when you're just sitting there without vision either. So it's one of the things that I think has made us really enjoy marriage and life is just always looking forward to how we can be growing ad what's next, and looking forward. Isaac always makes this joke when his birthday comes around that he doesn't like looking back. He likes getting older. He doesn't care that he getting older too.

Oh, it's the best thing.

I like getting older too

Oh, Yeah

He just loves it.

[Aaron] People really don't wanna stay young. I wanna, I can't wait to be gray haired.

[Isaac] Yeah, wisdom, you get to see your kids get older, more experiences, you've learned more.

[Angie] But one of the things that he said about that that's always stuck with me and challenges me because I'm not naturally like that is that if you're focused so much on the past, then you're not gonna be growing. You're always wanting what you had. And so it's just a challenge to look forward and it's a good challenge.

[Jennifer] That's awesome, so, have you guys always been dreamers and goal setters in your marriage like from the very beginning? Or is it something that kind of developed over time?

[Isaac] I would say that it was from early on actually. And in business, I've always played a proactive role in helping people have goals and vision, and so forth is really important. And I think, you know, husbands need to apply that to their marriages into their family. And I think it's super important. So we have done it early on. Of course, it's evolved over time.

[Angie] Yeah, for sure. And now we involve our kids in it too, which we'll talked about later but--

[Aaron] Yeah, we love that because you're teaching them how to be in the moment, and do what needs to be done but also look ahead and prepare. So you've always been dreamers, you've always been planners but have you said it's evolved. What are some of the ways that it's changed over time, the way you used to plan, dream?

[Angie] Well, you know what, Isaac actually, I haven't said this him out loud but I think he's actually the one who really taught me how to set goals. Because I worked for him when we met, that's how we met. And I was an independent contractor and had to set sales goals and different things like that. And he would coach the team through how to do that. And we just kind of took that into our personal life because it was so productive. And we saw good results from it. So we started applying it to life and other areas.

[Isaac] There's a principle called the napkin talk in leadership, and I just took that same principle to our date nights. Not every single one, sometimes we just hanging out. We do do that.

[Angie] I don't see, but we really absolutely enjoy it.

[Isaac] But we really love, so we almost have to force ourselves just to go hang out sometimes, but we--

[Angie] We actually had friends who were like, don't you guys just go and like sit?

[Isaac] Yeah, we do, we like that, but the napkin talk, I mean which means you pull out a napkin, you have a pen, you write down some goals, and you write down some initiatives, and there's an incredible power when you actually put thoughts to paper. I don't know what happens but it activates action in your lives and in your marriage. And I think that's really important.

[Jennifer] I feel like there's a really good practical tip for people listening if this is something that they really haven't done in their marriage, or maybe they've done it in the past, but haven't done it recently, getting out that napkin, getting out that piece of paper, even after listening to this episode and just go for it. It's the kind of place to start brain dump and just get it out of your mind, out of your heart, and onto the paper.

[Isaac] And I think you just think of one or two really good questions, it can be that simple.

[Aaron] So, I just wanna, I love those tips, the napkin, what was it called, napkin talk? Where you just write down on a napkin and that's awesome. We do something similar. We don't ever do a napkin but we bring a pad or we bring a pad or we do it on our phone, or send ourselves an email.

[Jennifer] Actually I have used napkins before.

[Aaron] Yeah, I think you have, that's it or worse we get some receipt paper please.

[Isaac] Yeah, exactly, whatever.

[Isaac] Yeah, whatever you can. But I just wanna real quick highlight why we've been talking about dreaming. And we're talking about this idea of planning together because in this part of the book, we're encouraging marriages to take all of the things we've talked about up to this point, and actually start getting it out of their hearts, and minds and onto paper. Because once we do that, once we have it out on paper. You said, the power of goal setting, there's every single productivity book or success book has some form of write it down, put a checklist, have a to do list. And there's a reason for that is because once it's written down, it's a real thing. It becomes a, oh, that's actually visible and now I'm not the only one who is thinking about it.

[Isaac] So true.

[Aaron] Other people can see it, my kids can see, my wife can see it and now I can pray about it. And so I just, I just wanna highlight, that's why we're having this conversation is not just to like, let's have big dreams and shoot for the moon. And, but there's a there's a mission involved in what we're doing. So, that we're proactively use that word proactive, we're proactively chasing after God's will for our life and sometimes and oftentimes it takes dumping all of the things that are in our hearts and minds as a couple onto paper into notes and be like, okay, what does this look like in our life? How are we gonna get to from A to B? What is B, so I just wanted to bring that up and then, so that we all know, everyone that's listening is like, oh, like, that's why we dream, like that's why we plan.

[Isaac] I think we're wired for progress too. And so when you're able to look at the end of the year, how you've made progress together, and the things you've accomplished together, it's so rewarding.

[Angie] And do you have dreams when you first get married. You dream about your life together. And you may think about specific goals, even then, from when we were just engaged to newlyweds. And it's exciting to keep that going. I think it helps you tonight and become stagnant, like you're saying or becoming a marriage is just surviving but instead, you're thriving. And I think that the first few years that we were married too, the napkin talks, a lot of times were Isaac asking specifically how I was doing in my relationship with God, how I was doing in my relationships with my kids, and that this would become an opportunity for us to communicate about what was going on in their hearts and what I was seeing during the day so that he would know how he could back me up when he was at home or what their needs were, so that we could be a better team when he was off work and on the weekends because he worked during the day,

[Isaac] It's so crucial because as husbands, if we want our wives' support, then we better be proactively supporting our wives. What things in our career do we want support with? Well, you're not gonna get it unless you've been proactively all along the way, supporting your wife and the things that really matter.

[Angie] And I remember there was a time too, someone asked us years ago because Isaac would shoot for huge goals business wise, and he would hit them. And one of the wives of another manager came up to me and just said, wow, you must have to work so hard at home. Is he working all the time? And I said, well, he does work hard, butt we work together and it's a team, we're a team.

[Aaron] It's a good little insight.

[Angie] Yeah and in, she just kind of looked at me like, oh, and and I remember like we would go out and if Isaac had a goal for work, like if I was gonna shoot for a different amount of sales, let's say you're in sales, he'd always run that by me first at one of our visionary date nights. And he would say, hey, this is what it might end up costing us like, this much extra time, are you in? Are we, do we wanna do it? So it wasn't just him doing it?

[Isaac] And then you being pulled along.

[Angie] Right and so even though he was running a business and I was a stay at home mom, I felt so cherished and involved in his business because he was involving me in the dreaming process, and just sharing with me even those goals. And then years went by of us doing that. And one night, he just out of nowhere said Do you have dreams that we're not pursuing together? And then that's where Redeeming Childbirth came in and like, oh, in him encouraging me to have a blog. And so it's important that you both are drawing that out of each other.

[Aaron] Well, and I think I saw in a second one ask you about the visionary date night thing. We'll get into that but you said that he would invite you in, involve you. I feel like you probably felt that way but it's even more than that. It sounds like you were a linchpin in the process where it not just being involved in like, hey, what do you think about this idea. It's more of a this goal won't work unless we're on the same page.

[Isaac] It's crucial, it's crucial, because if the plan doesn't go well, and you didn't from the beginning decide to do it together, guess who your detractors going to be later? The wife, you can't accomplish big things by yourself. And if you set out to do things then they don't go well, it could harm the marriage, if you didn't set out to do it together.

[Aaron] Well, and we talked about this a lot in the book is like, it starts without unity anyway. Like, if you're only doing it for if you're chasing after something and she's chasing after something, what are you doing? You're pulling against each other, and you never gonna get anywhere.

[Angie] You won't be effective.

[Isaac] No, and so you coming to your wife and it's not a permission based thing, it's purely a, we're one. This will only work if we're on the same page so that you show me where it's not gonna work, and let's figure out how to make it work. And not just in business but like, I love that you guys talked about children. And it actually in this chapter, we talk about the different categories that we could be submitting to the Lord and dreaming in. So when it comes to like children and raising our children and discipleship like, hey, what are some of the visions that we have?

And it could be as simple--

For our kids.

[Angie] as what character qualities do we see already being cultivated in this child? What is God drawing out of them? And how can we encourage that more? What are some of the flaws that maybe we need to work on? And so there's also those kinds of visions and goals with each child to those were always at the forefront of our family, visionary, and time for sure.

[Isaac] Well, we would even write down each child's name and go, what does each child need?

[Angie] And there were times to where we would evaluate like do we need to have special one on one time with each child like on a regular basis, like for a period of time to deal with a specific topic? So there are so many ways you could go about this.

[Jennifer] That's so cool, and when I think about this chapter of the book and the reason why we wanted to encourage couples to do this very thing of dreaming together and talking about these kinds of things is because it is a really intimate experience because you have to communicate, you have to share your hearts with one another. And that's what I'm hearing.

[Aaron] You are really transparent.

Jennifer] You have to be transparent, you have to have a insights, you have to know your children, you have to know each other. And I just see how unity is built. Trust is built, love is cultivated when a husband and wife intentionally pursue moments like this together.

[Aaron] Absolutely, so there's a quote in the book, it says this. Casting a vision together for the future of your marriage is an intimate experience where hope for the future stimulates perseverance for today. How has this been true in your guys' life?

[Angie] Oh, I feel like that quote totally suits for the season that we just been in.

[Isaac] We've gone through ups and some really tough times too, ups and downs, for sure. And it has been so crucial to have vision and a godly perspective and putting God at the center of our marriage as we go through the challenging times.

[Angie] And really that our goals are centered on Him too. I think that that's the thing that keeps you going. He's the hope and when you know that what you're pursuing is for Him and it's not for gain in anything else then it gives you the hope to keep going every day. And you don't focus so much on the circumstances that you might be in.

[Isaac] And we're called to not be of this world, be in the world but not of the world. And that goes for marriage. And so our marriage is a witness to the world. And what a great testimony during the hard times when we just grow closer together.

[Jennifer] Amen, love that.

[Aaron] Yeah, so you were just mentioning about like, they're like for God and human being in the center and Christ being our hope. And that's everything we want people to recognize but when we say dreaming, often we think like, we have lots of dreams. You said when you were married, you had lots of dreams. There's lots of people thinking, I want a big house, or I want to live in this location, or like we have this many dreams. And I'm not saying any of them are bad. But I wanna know, how do we set biblical boundaries? On our dream in planning, because we definitely could like dream of anything, doesn't mean anything should be done?

[Angie] I think that that's one of the benefits of having marriage too is that you can hold each other accountable because there will be times you'll both need it, right?

[Jennifer] So good.

[Angie] And I think that also when it comes to boundaries, I have specific boundaries that I have set for how I react when he shares his dreams because he's a big dreamer.

[Aaron] When is really big enough?

[Angie] Yeah, I kind of hold my breath for a minute.

Three deep breaths.

because I'm like, okay, that's really big.

[Isaac] Because she thinks we're for sure doing it because I speak with authority, even though I am just sharing ideas that haven't even been fleshed out yet.

[Angie] Yes, and so we've had to learn that about each other. And so he always is really, he's a gentle leader with me in that that he'll remind me ahead of time and say, so I don't wanna do this right now but I was thinking, X, Y, Z.

[Isaac] That's only after learning for a few years, in our first two years of marriage.

[Aaron] Well then ever went to listening husbands. This is a great tip. Hey, this isn't happening right now or even soon but I'm thinking about doing X, Y, Z. That's a great way to prep your wife for a big conversation.

[Angie] It totally is. And then it kind of gives me some time to like let it settle, think about it. And then I don't overreact because we had done a lot of really big things together in business and in planning a vineyard. And we had, yeah, we had six of them in those 10 years. So we really had done a lot. And so, his track record led me to believe that every time you had a dream it had to happen.

[Aaron] Because it's been that way.

[Isaac] Yeah, and if you want your wife's support then you've got a pre-frame ahead of time like that because otherwise, when I was shared dream without pre-framing it, she would instantly sometimes look for the challenge where I'm too optimistic, she's more realistic. And that's why God put us together, because the differences are such a blessing when you embrace those differences and you respect each other.

[Aaron] It's almost like God had a plan for your marriage.

[Angie] Amazing, right?

[Jennifer] And something that I'm hearing as you guys talk or is that this practice of dreaming together is also practicing communication and learning each other. And so another tip for those listening is learn each other, figure out how each other's going to receive things and adapt your relationship so that you guys can work together as a team and not always end up in arguments or disappointments.

[Angie] One tip in that direction is that timing is everything which is one of the reasons why I think our date nights were so successful. It wasn't in the heat of the household.

[Isaac] Chaos.

[Angie] You know what I'm saying and so--

[Isaac] Handling are you making dinner for our children and me and I thought about this idea.

[Angie] Exactly, and I thought you would.

[Isaac] So husbands, it's super important to think about the timing of when to bring certain things up, challenges, good things, dreams. And sometimes you're gonna save a list for your date nights, it's super important.

[Jennifer] Angie, could you just share to the wives timing for when you're sharing things with your husband, maybe what does it look like on a wife's end?

[Angie] On a wife's end regarding the dreams since--

[Jennifer] Timing.

[Angie] So right away, when they come home from work if they're someone who's working away from home not a good time to talk to them. Give them some time to so and and I think that night times are actually good after the kids have gone to bed. That's also a good time to talk about it, I wouldn't suggest that for the wives though as much because we just kind of are starting to relax and then it's brought up it can create some anxiety for some women. But the guys generally can handle that but you would have to judge your spouse.

[Jennifer] Yeah, for sure.

[Angie] But I think that they appreciate us being considerate to them in the same regard that we appreciate being considered.

[Aaron] So I have this thought about, we talk about boundaries because like we can dream again of anything but what is God one, and building a, this is for me and for you guys, and everyone that's listening. Beginning to build a track record where we as individuals, as a husband and a wife, and as a marriage, submit everything to the Lord. Instead of like, hey, I have this idea. Let's sell the house and let's move over across country and start a this organization. And everyone's like, whoa, whoa, what? What are you talking about? But having a track record of like, hey, here's an idea. Let's start praying about this today and see what happens. And then learning how to follow through with things or learning how to say no to things after it's been evaluated, prayed through and sought out with counsel, so that when a husband brings up an idea, there's not this fear of like, well, is this going to end up like what happened last time where we're going to change that do something and then fall on our face, and then have to start over again, and then chase after something that follows. Does that make sense?

[Isaac] It makes perfect sense. And just because something is good fruit doesn't mean it's fruit we're supposed to pick. So it's really important to have God at the center and be praying about it. It's like in the vineyard, if you have a whole bunch of fruit on a plant, you can't leave all that fruit there. Otherwise, it's gonna make bad wine. But if you cut half of it off, all the energy goes into the right fruit that we're supposed to pick, and it makes great wine. And that's the same thing for a marriage.

[Jennifer] I love that. So when dreaming together, there's going to be times where there's gonna be awesome things that come that come up and get on the list that you probably can't pursue, or maybe the timings not there, and you guys have to navigate that together.

[Angie] And I think sometimes too, depending on if you're a natural dreamer and you like to dream about a lot of things, sometimes it's not God's will for your life. And that's where you have to be willing to dream but be willing for God to say no. Or to say, no, not now. Because sometimes that's His answer too. And so and that's part of why I think that he's given us protection and having a spouse because we can kind of ground one another in the times when we need to. But we can also be one another's biggest cheerleader in those times when we know God's pushing us forward.

[Isaac] And that's crucial 'cause husbands if you get off track, and you're not listening to God and you're in the flesh, and you just go and do something, it could be catastrophic for your family. And I have an experience where we went all in on a business venture, and it failed. And we lost everything financially for a period of time. And that was my responsibility. Now, my wife faithfully supported me, followed me through the challenges, and through the good times but that was directly a cost of me being confused and not paying attention to what God wanted.

[Aaron] Oh, it's awesome that you can you can see that. And for those that are listening can learn from what you guys walked through. So that gift that God gave you, that that resource that he's given you that story is now a testimony that can warn other believers.

[Angie] Yeah, we have lots of stories like that was a good story

[Isaac] Oh, we do.

Winning and losing.

[Angie] That's right.

[Jennifer] Speaking of winning, what are kingdom benefits of dreaming together and setting goals?

[Isaac] Well, I think the first Kingdom benefit is your kids are watching everything you're doing. And if you're trusting God, and surrendering everything to God and working as a team together, you're modeling for them for their future marriages because what we're raising future adults, right?

[Angie] That's right, yeah. And we also want them to see us pursuing God's dreams and His visions and being workers in His fields also. And so, right now with Courageous Parenting, this is a new thing that we're working together in ministry, I've been doing it for many years. And Isaac, of course, was always a missionary wherever he was, but now we're full in with Courageous Parenting. And it's a different feel around the house, everybody is involved, everybody helps out in some way from Austin helping to edit podcasts to Megan helping with the baby, and it's just, and they're behind it. That's the cool thing is that they see the vision because they wanna see other parents get impacted and they are constantly encouraging us too so.

[Isaac] And I think if God is for something, it's gonna have some impact on the kingdom of God and so that's the fruit too.

[Aaron] And so it's constantly saying, Okay, Lord, what do you want? Here's what we have and here's ideas that we have. How does this work into your plan?

[Angie] It's really about stewardship. Actually, all of the goal setting and everything is all about stewarding.

I love that.

Our hearts, our lives, our children,

Our resources.

[Angie] All our resources. And so I remember when we had the vineyard before we planted and cultivated the vineyard in our other property, we would look out at this field and go, what should we plant there? And we would pray about it, we'd dream about it. And we thought, all different kinds of ideas. And we did have a vision for hosting weddings there one day and different things like that. But God moved us on to a different vision which I'm glad that we're here. It was definitely God's will for us to move, but yeah.

[Aaron] So, I think of this, I can't remember the how the quote exactly goes but the answer is no to 100% of the questions you never asked, right.

[Isaac] Yeah.

[Aaron] Because like if you don't ask her you can't get a yes or no. So it's just a no. And I feel like that's how we should see this idea of dreaming as a couple as marriages for the kingdom of God and saying, okay, Lord, we have this amount of resources, we have these relationships, we have these talents and gifts that you've given us. Man, we could do this, we combine this, and just throw it all out, and then start praying over it which is what how we we direct the readers and what to do when they dream. And then start making actions. So what's a practical way that you guys dream and then plan, like okay, here's a dream and we've actually feel like this is where God's leading us

[Angie] Always involves a whiteboard.

[Aaron] Turn aways because they are--

[Isaac] Whiteboard or journal, I think you start on a whiteboard, afterwards ends up on a whiteboard. But yeah, I think it's so important to get things on paper, pray over it, of course, and then really vet it out and have some action steps towards it and understand each other's roles. There was some dreams where Angie's role was to praise and be supportive and take care of the family while I was doing something. There's other dreams we've done where we're both very, very active and immersed together in it.

[Angie] And then there were times where Isaac would take care of the kids so that I could write and he was more active with the kids in the vineyard and taking that on, and then I would pull back away from that once that project was done. And I was all in and he would be able to slip away more towards work. And so it's kind of a dance.

[Isaac] But it's so important.

[Aaron] I love that idea of a dance.

[Isaac] Dance, so important to have good communication, though, because things are constantly moving.

[Aaron] I think a part of that good communication is having end zones. Small, like if it was just an indefinite like, hey, you're gonna watch the kids and I'm gonna write, and who knows when, that wouldn't be a healthy season.

[Angie] No, you do have to have boundaries.

[Aaron] So, you set boundaries and then it wouldn't be how easy is it of, if Isaac said, hey, I'm gonna be working 12 hour days for the next, who knows how long and let's see what happens. That wouldn't be a healthy.

[Isaac] Here's a super important point to that which is husbands when you set a deadline for how long the sacrifice is gonna be, you better deliver. Because if you go past that deadline, your wife is gonna lose trust for you as you dream together--

[Aaron] Track record.

[Isaac] There's a cost.

[Aaron] You wanna have good track records within this process.

[Jennifer] Any want your word to be as good as gold.

[Angie] Yeah, that's awesome and what I'm thinking when you guys are sharing all this is details. So when you're writing this down when you're making an action plan or strategy put some details and dates and times, and very specific things that will help guide these boundaries.

[Aaron] That's good baby.

[Isaac] That's was really good.

[Aaron] So, as we come to a close, I want to ask you, it's so easy to just say, We're gonna be big dreamers and big planners, and we're gonna get all these practical steps and... What is the foundational perspective biblically that we should have in all of this because the Bible talks about planning.

[Angie] And He talks a lot about our marriage, I think it comes down to what our marriages really for, God.

[Isaac] To glorify God.

[Angie] It's not about us. And so when you realize that your marriage isn't about you, and that it's meant to be a light to the world, and that you are bearing God's image to them, your perspective changes and that's for all of us. It doesn't matter what you're doing for work or if you're in ministry, we are all part of the body of Christ. And we all--

We're all in ministry, this is our, yeah.

Exactly. Everyone is a missionary wherever they are. They're all lights and ambassadors.

[Isaac] Yeah, it's to fulfill the greatest, the Great Commission, and to glorify God in everything we do, and we've always believed that the things we're gonna do, it's gotta have some kind of positive impact on people. And that doesn't need because every--

[Aaron] When you say positive, do you mean like in a faith way and in a biblical way?

[Isaac] In a biblical, faith focused way. And I'm not saying everybody, every goal has to be like that. But I've had goals that weren't, like investing in resources, and I lost deeply. And I did not get my wife's approval.

[Aaron] That's for another podcast.

[Isaac] It's for another but I just want to warn you that God is in control, and we should fear Him, and not the world. And really obey him by our actions.

[Angie] I think too, we mentioned stewardship, and one of the verses that comes to mind is about our treasures and building treasures in heaven. And I think that as we're setting goals as a couple, and we're remembering these foundational truths about marriage that we keep in the back of our minds that we're building for Him, and we're building for the kingdom of God in heaven because we're partnering with Him and the Great Commission and--

[Isaac] So good.

[Angie] And that we're gonna experience pushback because whenever you do something that God's calling you to do, you're gonna experience some pushback. We have enemies, we have our own flesh And God cares about our sanctity through the process of the journey of life as well and so hard dreams are good because they bring out those things that need to be sanctified in you.

[Isaac] Yeah, I mean, often I have said if you're not salty, you might not even realize there's a battle. But if you are salty, you're fully aware because you feel it. And there is a spiritual battle at hand. And as you press in and set goals together and try, and do things for God's glory, there is an enemy that hates that. The good news is God is way more powerful. but you need to be aware, and you need to pray.

[Aaron] So, do you guys, in all of these conversations we have there just can be an inkling of, well, that's good for you. And I understand that God's got this call because we use this idea of call. Is there anyone in the body of Christ that's exempt from the things you're talking about?

[Isaac] Not at all, you could be doing any position, it be in any kind of circumstances, any kind of financial situation. And it's the same truth for every married couple.

[Angie] And the reason why is because God wants people, He wants their hearts, He wants to be reconciled to everyone. And so He may place you in a place that's really hard. But I think that God would ask of you to think big, think and view them the way He views them, and would He want you to have a goal or a dream that's gonna impact that other co-worker that's in the cubicle next to you.

[Isaac] I would also say there's nothing worse than when you go out to dinner and you see couples not talking to each other, or looking at their phones, ignoring each other. And that potentially, is because they're not making progress together and doing things for God as a team.

[Aaron] And I feel like, Jen, you might be able to speak into this a little bit, that setting, you said heavenly treasure like treasures in heaven, treasures above. The Bible tells us to look above to think on things above and not on things that on earth, and setting goals and pursuing heavenly things and always looking up. When I think of those couples that are sitting and not looking each other, it's because they are only looking in one direction, which is down, because we're not up, we are of the Earth currently. And I feel like that pursuing as a marriage, do you feel like as we consistently look up, it keeps our focuses off of us?

[Angie] Yeah, yeah, totally.

[Aaron] And that's what we wanna encourage everyone listening is this isn't just because we want plan that million dollar orphanage in another country that might be absolutely someone's calling in, and we gotta ask for them. But it's just the fact that we have we a heavenly calling. All of us as believers, we were part of the body of Christ. And that body is doing something and it's it's led by the by the head Jesus.

[Jennifer] We all have gifts and to know those gifts in one another and call them out and say, hey, have you ever thought of like, I would have never even started a blog if it wasn't for Isaac starting it for me and saying here, you should write. I mean that's really your gift.

[Isaac] You use your gift, here you go.

[Angie] He kind of did that. I mean, this was way back before we had cellphones. He was crazy about the internet just came out sponsor.

[Aaron] Oh man.

[Isaac] Man, I think what happened is I said, you should start a blog, and you're like, oh, no. Some of you should start a blog, oh, no. Okay, I'm starting a blog, and I started a blog.

[Angie] You edited it.

[Isaac] And I started a blog, and I'm writing, I'm writing and the only reason I started a blog was so that she was started blog. And that's how she started hers.

[Jennifer] Did he buy a book?

That is actually, no.

[Jennifer] That's awesome, before we wrap up, I really want our listeners to benefit from your guys' wisdom on parenting. And so I just wanna ask the question, how have you guys incorporated dreaming together as a family with your children?

[Isaac] I think it's so important to include your kids in the process.

It's fun.

It is really fun. And one of the interesting things is that everybody has New Year plans and so forth. We just started start those more toward November going into the new year. And what we do is we run a session with the kids and we go, how did this year go? We have them.

[Aaron] Is there a whiteboard involved?

There's a whiteboard.


[Isaac] And we have them rate the different areas of life, spiritual.

[Angie] How did they do in that category?

[Isaac] Yeah and we talked about it. And then then we do another session where they set intentions for the new year. And we just still got the--

[Aaron] I like intensions, it's better than resolutions.

[Isaac] Yeah, intentions is good.

[Angie] It good intentions and Isaac always takes a picture after they have shared what they are, and takes a picture so that he can put it up on the screen the next year. And he also kind of texts us randomly throughout the year goes, how are you doing on your goals?

[Jennifer] Wow,

[Angie] It's really for--

[Jennifer] Seriously, that's awesome.

[Angie] Yeah, our oldest daughter, Kelsey, is at college and she actually just texted me a picture of her goals that are on her wall next to her bed. That was a huge win. So even like, all the kids really enjoy it, even our three year olds had goals this year to stay potty trained and get candy.

[Isaac] What's awesome for that is--

[Jennifer] I would like to get candy bars.

[Isaac] When they rate different areas of their life. It's so neat to see all the kids in the family rallying for them, no, you're more like an A, you are not a C.

You're not--

[Isaac] It's awesome.

[Angie] It was really encouraging because they would all give feedback and and say, oh, well, have you thought about this goal? And they would like add on to it and so it was really fun.

[Isaac] Self evaluation is an incredible gift.

[Jennifer] And it sounds like it doesn't matter what age children?

[Angie] No, I mean, Eli was with us and he's four months old

That's awesome.

He was adamant. Sometimes in our age.

[Angie] Self training.

[Aaron] Taking solid foods, stay cute.

[Jennifer] Awesome, thank you guys so much for your insight there. I know that it just is blessing everyone, everyone's probably gonna wanna redo all their--


--new goals for 2019. Okay, so the last question we have for you is, in your own words, what is a marriage after God?

[Angie] Well, I think that we kind of talked a little bit about it before, just that our marriage would reveal the image of God to everyone, to our children to the world around us. And that we'd be striving to one another. One of the images that comes to my mind is in life trials because we have definitely experienced those in 19 years of marriage. When you're both chasing after God or running after him in that hard time I think you're gonna meet there and you're gonna be stronger versus if you're--

[Isaac] Stronger together.

[Angie] Versus like if a husband loses a job or a wife is ill, or you could name whatever trial you're walking through, if one person starts working harder to fix the problem versus running to God first, there's a difference in how your marriage is revealed to your kids and the strength of marriage.

[Isaac] And then when we say our wedding vows, almost everybody has in their wedding vows or some part of the marriage ceremony is to become one flesh. And do you really believe that? Well, if you do, then you're going to treat your bride or your husband like they are yourself. Because we really do become one. And when you become one, like Angie said, you become way more powerful for the impact for the kingdom of God. And we've always held that as the most important vision.

[Jennifer] Well that was incredible. I could just listen to you guys all night, and that's awesome.

[Isaac] Well, if people want to, they can go find them at, or through their podcast, Courageous Parenting but you can get anywhere podcasts are. And they should definitely go check out their podcast because we don't talk nearly enough about parenting. And that's all they talk about, like this. They talked about the painting like--

[Jennifer] This is we glean all of our needed parenting.

[Aaron] You guys have blessed us over the years by your gift of knowledge and parenting, your wisdom in parenting. And so we've been totally blessed by that. So not just the planning stuff that we've seen in your life, but all aspects of your life we've been blessed by, so thank you for honoring us and blessing us by coming on our show.

[Isaac] We've been so blessed by your friendship and love what's happening with the ministry here.

[Aaron] Yeah, thank you.

[Jennifer] I also wanna mention you guys are really active on social media. So where can people find you if they wanna follow you daily?

[Isaac] Courageous Parenting and--

[Angie] Courageous Mom.

[Isaac] And Resolute Man.

[Angie] Yeah, so on Instagram, that's where we're the most active for sure, I'm and he's And then on Facebook.

[Aaron] Awesome, so, at the end of every episode, we end in prayer. So if you guys wanna join me in prayer?

[Isaac] Yeah.

[Aaron] Dear Lord, we pray would be husbands and wives who dream together. We pray the dreams and the goals that we consider are ones that you put in our hearts. We desire to be used by you to fulfill your purposes. We wanna build your kingdom and not our own. And we remember to submit our plans to you always. There are things that we dream up that need to wait or need to be pushed aside, please help us to be humble. Help us to let go of any pride so that we don't pursue what of we want but instead only what you want. May we experience intimacy in marriage as we intentionally consider all that you have for us. We also pray we would have fun as we do this as a team for your glory. In Jesus name.

[All] Amen.

[Aaron] So, we just wanna thank everyone for listening. This has been part 13 in this 16 part series. There's a couple more, there's a few more awesome interviews coming up. So, I hope have you guys next week. Thank you for joining us. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at Marriage After God calm and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary an marriage.

May 08, 2019
MAG 012: How To Know God’s Will For Your Marriage - w/ Sam & Amanda Ciurdar

Order Marriage After God today and get a ton of free bonuses

Today we’re in part 12 of the marriage after God Series and we’re gonna be talking with Sam and Amanda Ciurdar about God’s Will for your marriage

A Quote From Marriage After God

“As the people of God and as children of the Creator, it is our inheritance to take on the family business of proclaiming with our words, actions, and love for one another that Christ came to reconcile the world to God.”


*Dear Lord,

Thank you for your holy word. Thank you for sharing with us what your will is for our lives and what your will is for our marriages. We ask that we would continue growing in knowledge and understanding of your word. As husbands and wives, please help us to build and keep your word as our strong foundation. We pray against our flesh from getting in the way of doing your will. When we start to wrestle with our flesh, Holy Spirit please defend us and help us to have victory over our flesh. Renew our perspective of life and marriage, so that we may see what you see. Reveal to us the bigger picture of how your will is being done in us and through us. Motivate our hearts to use every part of our lives to live for you! May we understand the impact our ministry has as we walk faithfully every day with you and with each other. May we fulfill our part as your body to share your gospel with this lost world.

In Jesus’ name, amen!*


Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God.

Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

And today, we're in part twelve of the Marriage After God series and we're gonna be talking with Sam and Amanda Ciurdar about God's Will For Your Marriage. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.

I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife.

And, I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution.

We have been married for over a decade.

And so far, we have four young children.

We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years, through blogging and social media.

With a desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day.

We believe that Christian Marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life


And power

That can only be found by chasing after God.


Thank you for joining us on this journey, as we chase boldly after God's Will for our life together.

This is Marriage After God. So, today's guests are Sam and Amanda Ciurdar. They're great friends of ours and we're really excited for you guys to hear what they have to share with you today. But, before that, we just want to encourage you guys to leave a review. This is just a way to get the podcast out there, to share what the message is of, you know, having a marriage after God. So, if you could, just take a minute to just go review the podcast.

And, also if you love this podcast, and you want to support us, the way you can support us, is going to and picking up a copy of Marriage After God. It's our new book, it's what this series is about, and it's why we're talkin' to Sam and Amanda today. And, so, let's just get into the conversation. Sam and Amanda, we are so happy to have you on the podcast, so let's start with who you are, and how long you've been married, children, stuff like that.

Cool, well thank you for having us.

It's our pleasure to be here.

Who are we? Who are you?

I am Sam, right, or are you Sam?


I'm Sam. I am a filmmaker, and photographer, based out of Southern California. This is my wife, Amanda, and loving mother of our daughter, who is two, and a baby to be, our son coming in, like, about a month or so.

So awesome.

Gettin' really crazy up in here.

Yeah, we've been married for seven and a half years. June will be eight, which is insane we've been together for ten years, now?

It's two hands.

Yeah, two hands

Yeah, you have to count on two hands now.

I think that, yeah, I stay at home with our daughter, and soon our son, and it's just a blessing the life that we get to live together.


So awesome, guys, thanks for sharing and letting everyone know that, and, you know, we've known you guys for just over, you know, seven years. Because, we remember going to your wedding

Oh yeah, I was trying to think, did we know them before they were married.

I actually have a really embarrassing moment from your wedding. I don't know if you guys ever knew this, but I tripped and fell coming out of the wedding into the reception, and yeah, it was really embarrassing.

Was it high heels that you were wearing?

I was wearing high heels, I never wear high heels, and I was like, I'm gonna dress up, yeah, so I fell right on my face. That can be. That's awesome.

I think I remember that. So we've known you guys for quite a while, you guys are good friends of ours. We live separately now, but I think we still keep in touch pretty regularly.


And, we're excited to have you on the show today, because you guys have been a part of our journey for a long time, we've been a part of your journey. Just growing in God, growing in marriage, becoming parents, and you know, we're talking about God's Will For Your Marriage. It's from Chapter 12 in our book, and we love that you guys have constantly been pursuing that in your life. And so, we're not expecting you guys to have all the answers, we just love talking to you, we wanna discuss this idea of what that looks like. And, we have some questions for you guys, and hope you are ready.

Well, probably not.

So, where to start. Start with the icebreaker.

Being honest.


We're gonna start with the icebreaker, so you know, this is lighthearted stuff here. Where have been your favorite place to travel together?

We probably agree on this one, I would say Iceland.

Yeah, we went to Iceland. It took us two years to get pregnant with our daughter, and in those two years, we traveled a lot. And those two years, are some of the best years of our life, and I think God really allowed us to

Well, I'm thinking that in the year that we ended up getting pregnant, I know I personally had been on thirteen trips in twelve months, and I think you were on twelve of those with me.

Yeah, so it was crazy, but Iceland was during that time, and so, it was a really kind of vulnerable time in our life. But a really special kind of unifying trip, and Iceland is an incredibly beautiful place, so it was definitely unique for multiple reasons.

Iceland, that's the green one, right?

Yeah, the green one.

Greenland's the white one, and Iceland's the green one.

Thank the Vikings for that.

Yeah, they switched them on purpose, yeah. Well, that's awesome. What's our favorite trip that we've ever been on together?



Corona? No, not Corona.

I would say our last trip to Maine, that was really wonderful.

That was actually, Maine, I want to go back to Maine, you're right that was a good one.

We've been to Maine, too.

Especially in the Fall, the leaves were changing, yeah.


Good food.

Awesome, good answers to the icebreaker.

Iceland, icebreaker.

Oh, there you go, yeah.

So, I'm gonna share a quote real quick from, and this might set a tone for us, its from Chapter 12 from the Marriage After God book, God's Will For Your Marriage, and this is the quote "As the people of God and as the children of the Creator, "it is our inheritance to take on the family business "of proclaiming with our words, actions and love "for one another that Christ came "to reconcile the world to God." And so, that's kinda this big, big, big picture, like the overall, large Will that God has for His people. So, but, you know, how does that play out in the everyday, how does that play out in all the unique details of our lives and what God's doing with us. It's kinda what we wanna talk about today, so.

Yeah, which leads us into our first question, and that's when you hear the term God's Will, what do you guys think of?

That's a big question.

That's a loaded question.

That's a loaded question.

Honestly, for me, when I think of the word, God's Will, I kinda substitute it for the word, plan. And, that His Plan, is far superior than my own, so that's kinda what I think of my mind I guess.

What I think of is that God has His Perfect Will, and His Permissible Will. His Perfect Will being His Perfect Plan, of course, the trajectory for our lives that He would have us take. And then, Permissible, as what He allows to happen in our lives, or decisions that He allows us to make. And, so, that's kinda where my mind goes when I think about that, when I think about those two, kinda, avenues


That's good. So, I think, I like those words you used, you know, His Perfect Will, His Permissible Will, we've talked about that a lot in the past, and just the two different varying ideas of that. And, then, I liked the word, Plan, you know, what's His Plan like, what is His Plan for my life, you know.

What's my Will for everyday, you know, like, and we'll probably jump into that more. Like if I change the word, Will, to Plan, it kinda, I don't know, pretty much grounds it a little bit more, for me.

Right, yeah, I think that's a good word for listeners to be like, okay, God's Will is like His Plan. And, I feel like that many Christians want to know God's specific Will for their lives, I feel like, especially, Millennials and these younger generations, what's my call, what's my passion, what am I supposed to do in this world? You know that we hear that a lot. But, in the Christian terms, what is our unique ministry, or call on our life? And, we wonder that, but it can feel elusive or ambiguous. Do you guys feel that way in your life? Do you feel like God's Will and Plan for your life, specifically, is ambiguous, or elusive, or do you guys feel otherwise?

For me personally, I would say no, because I guess I'm kind of a unique case, that ever since I was a kid, I've always known what I wanted to do with my life. And I wasn't going to, I was going to fight for it, like you know, I had no extra, I had no plan B, there was no extra alphabet letters for me, it was plan A, or bust. For me, I always knew I wanted to be a filmmaker, photographer, and be like, a storyteller through visuals. And, I know, it's been something that God placed on me, because it's allowed me to effortlessly to somehow work in the Church world, doing video work, that's kinda led to other opening, doors opening, and it's kinda been like a chain reaction. And, I know that God's called me to do it, I don't know on what scale, but I know His Plan is still unraveling for me in that sense, and what He wants me to do in that realm. So, for me, it's kinda hard, because I have friends who always go, like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with my life, I don't even know what my passion is. You know, for me, I've been passionate about this one thing since I was probably five years old, you know.

I know ever since I've known you.


Ever since I've known myself

You've had a natural draw toward it, and a talent to go with it.

And I know, that's not the case for a lot of people. A lot of people don't even know what they want to do 'til college years, you know, so for me, it's literally been through from my DNA, and I know God placed it there on purpose.


Go ahead, Aaron, did you have a question for Sam?

I was just going to say, Amanda, how does that planned out the question for you?

So, Sam having this call on his life has, God has worked through and allowed me to be able to stay at home. Which, becoming a mom for me was a total identity shift, because this question was, I would say for me, so does it feel elusive and ambiguous? I would say, yes and no, for me. It seems to have ebb and flow through the different seasons that life brings. I think for a long time, I felt kind of maybe lost, maybe less than, because I didn't have this big pull toward something specific, towards starting an organization, or you know, being a missionary in Africa, or you know, doing things just really big scale, like, just things like that, and so, it's kind of made me feel like, well, other people are doing these big things, like does God have this big grand plan for my life, and I

Being a mom is no joke

Being a mom is no joke, but anybody who is a stay at home mom, or mom, I guess, on any scale, would probably agree and say that the day to day doesn't really feel very grand. You know, when I'm sitting and reading a book with my daughter, or I'm coloring Minnie Mouse on the next coloring book, like we did tonight

You color very well though

I did stay inside the lines, so, but I've learned that it doesn't have to be one big thing, and that it looks different for everybody. And, that God calls some people to really big things, multiple things, smaller scale things, and I think for right now for my season of life, my season is being a mother. That's what He's allowed me to do, that's what He's brought Sam's career to a place where I'm able to do that.

But, even in terms of since I've known you, like our first date, I think I asked you what is your dream in life. And, you didn't have a career dream, you literally said I would love to be a stay at home mom.


So that's here we are seven years later.

But, I see these amazing women, who are moms that also have these, you know, careers that they're pursuing, so that was a struggle for me, when I first became a mom, I guess let it feel like a nothin' So, for me I think what it could mean for my life is living out the Fruits of the Spirit intentionally each day in my home, and when I go out. And working at being obedient, and open, and flexible as a vessel for God's Purposes, whether it's big and grand to me, or small. Like I was telling Sam earlier, it feels a little bit like, you know, if you put five bucks, if you donate five bucks to the Church, or wherever, like, what we could do with that five dollars is so much different than what God could do with that five dollars. Do you know what I mean? So, that's kind of how it feels like. What may seem small and insignificant in my day to day, like, I never know the impact that God's gonna take, how He's gonna, how it's gonna manifest in the future. If that makes sense.


Yeah, I mean, like, being a stay at home mom, she's able to share that lifestyle on her social media, and I think it's just manifested into something else that I don't think either one of us really knows what's happening behind that digital curtain, you know what I mean?


The lives that we impact, we don't even know, it could be one person, it could be hundreds of people. But, I know a lot of people, you know Amanda's not going to say this, but I know a lot of women look up to her as a woman and as a mom.

That's a powerful thought.

Seriously, we're only two questions in, and I'm like, you guys this is so powerful. And I think those listening are being so encouraged right now, because so many are, you know, stay at home moms, or are moms with, you know, businesses or careers in other things that they're doing, or even dads, you know, and I think that it can, I just feel like you guys are hitting so many points right now that are encouraging people's hearts. And I just wanted to say thank you for your authenticity, and your transparency right now, because we need to hear it.

Yeah, and I also think the idea that we sometimes think, you know, ministry or God's Will for my life, it doesn't look like that other person, that comparison idea, so I must not be doing it.

We talk about that all the time

We do

Someone who could be on a pastor or, you know, preaching in front of thousands of people, people go like, oh man, this guy is doing things for the Kingdom, you know, but at home you don't know what's happening. You know, it's because of putting on this facade

Could be

It could be, yes, of course, I'm not saying it's everybody, obviously, but you know, we try not to put up any facades or anything like that, and we both work from home, so not a lot of people see what we do.

And, here's the thing you guys, if you guys are a parent, you're doing something every single day for God's ministry, you're building up His Kingdom by raising godly children, and children who will know Him, and will walk in His ways, and so, that right there, is such a powerful ministry, regardless if anyone on social media ever knows.

Yeah, and that's what, you know, one of the things we want to draw out in this book so much, is that God does have a Will for our life and marriage, and just because it doesn't look like what other people are doing, God wants us to be obedient where He has us. He wants us to serve Him and love Him and worship Him where He has us. And, not to, you know, that's coveting, we don't, He doesn't want us to covet anything, let alone someone else's, you know, talent or resource, or what God's given them. And, so it sounds like you guys, have settled into the idea that what you have, is what God has for you to do.

Yeah, absolutely


And it's not someone else's thing, and it's not some other thing

Yeah, the only way, like I get, I've tied it in somehow going back to social media is, you know, when you have a decent following on a platform, a lot of people think to themselves, I wish I had this because I wish I had this many followers because then I'd get more people to see my work, or something like that. But, I've always encouraged people that if God has given you an audience of a hundred, those are a hundred hearers for you to preach to, or, you know, send a message to, or whatever, and if you're, you know, get blessed to have more, that's just more hearers, you know.

And more responsibility

And more responsibility, absolutely, so if you have five people who follow you on a social platform, what do you want to tell those five people, you know. It's kinda equals out, that's for sure.

I love that, so do you guys, and that's exactly what we're getting at with this, is like, we're in God's vocation. What we do with our life, whether it be a filmmaker, a photographer, a mom, it's the, we have the same, God has the same Will for us as He does for everyone. It's to do His Will, it's to spread His message, to our children, to our coworkers, to that person that we are going to the coffee shop with, or you know, do you guys see yourself in ministry together? Even in these separate roles?

Do we see ourselves in ministry together? We do, well, we're both home, with Lucy. Sam's work is often at home, he doesn't have to travel very often, and so I think that, Lucy has a bit of a unique childhood, in that she has both parents home. And so, like I said, I really believe, well I haven't said it yet, but I'm sure that I will, but the ministry at home is the most important some of the, you know, just what you do at home. And so, having a mom and having a dad, being able to influence her, discipline her, et cetera, I think that's a huge thing, and then, a lot of our lives are also on social media, and

Yeah, I really think that the ministry word, can be such a larger scale, 'cause it's literally at least for me, I try to live in my house the same way I do out and about and in public.

That's good, yeah.

So like, you know, I'm not, I don't try to be all loving with other people out and about, and come home and I'm like mad, or like short with my wife and daughter. You know, if I'm short and frustrated with my daughter at home, I'm short and frustrated with other people out and about, you know. Nah, I'm just kidding, like

You're consistent

I try to be consistent But, I think, you know, the ministry that we're called to do is to literally love one another as much as we possibly can, you know, and on this Earth as Christians we are not here to judge. That's not our place, we have one Judge. So, while we are here on Earth, I feel like our calling is just to literally love on every single person. And, I think in doing that, it creates a light, and people are attracted to light, and people will naturally be like, oh, what's so different about you, and why, you know, who is this person, and I'm curious about it, and that can open up doors, you know. And that's simply as, if you're a barista, saying hi, or like, picking up a coffee for somebody, they'll be like, ah, that doesn't happen very often, and that even comes down to generosity, it's contagious, you know. So, that's what I feel like my ministry in life is to try and lead, but like lead as much by example, as I possibly can, you know, not necessarily walk around with a soap box, and like, shoving things down people's throat, you know.

Yeah, I love that, so you know, we asked the question if you see yourself in ministry together, and sometimes it's hard to think of well, yeah, he does this and I do this, and yeah, sometimes we do that together. But, there's so much more in this idea of it being on the same team, being one in our ministry. So, you know, Amanda and the way she is around you, and the way she serves you, and loves you, gives you that energy and ability to go and do the same to others, and then the way you love and cherish your wife, allows her to have the energy and strength to not only, you know, disciple her children well, and love them well, and be with them and have the energy to do that. But, then also her girlfriends and, you know, her people that she sees when she's out and about, and so it's this oneness that we have, that we get to fulfill the Will of God, together. That's kinda, it's exactly what you're saying. Like, you're like, you know, it's our life, we are a light in this world, and we're preaching God's message, not our own. And, even though, it looks different in our individual ways of being during the day, we do it together, you know, that's kinda where we're hoping to encourage those listening. Whether you can perfectly verbalize it, that's what you are doing, that's how you explained it.

It's a sport

It's a team sport, yeah.

And you're not playing singles tennis over here, you know, you're playing like a huge team sport. And, the funny thing is, we've already won, so that's like you should be able, can you imagine if every team knew that they won, how much boldly they would play.

Yeah, we actually have a question up here. We skipped it because you guys kinda answered it already. But, I love that you just said, that if they knew they were gonna make every goal, how boldly they'd play. It says if you knew exactly what God's Will was for your marriage, would it encourage you to pursue it? Right.

Yeah, we were talking about that one earlier. I'll say my answer first. I honestly believe that if you're in your Word, and you're praying, you know, continuously, daily, that your heart ends up aligning with God's heart. And that you're, at the end of the day, your will almost becomes His Will, and vice a versa.

Yeah, I love that

It's aligned, so naturally, sorry, so of course I would want to pursue God's Will in marriage, and in all things, because I feel like my heart is aligned with what He wants, you know. And, again, it comes down to God's Will, right, God's Will, actually change the word from Will to Plan, why would I not want His Plan, because His Plan is definitely gonna be way better than my own plan. And His timing


More than my own timing

I love that, I think you nailed it too. Real quick, sorry, in God's Word, in prayer, I thought it was good that your will begins to align

It does

And it's funny because, you know, being a Christian, I've been a Christian for as long as I've known myself.

You've known yourself a long time

A very long time, and I've been a Christian, not the entire time, but Amanda and my resolution for last year was to read the entire Bible in a year's time.

Oh cool

You know we've read the Bible in pieces over our lives, and stuff, but actually never in its entirety. And in doing that, every single day, you know, I literally sought Him more, you know, it's like hanging out with your best friend every day. You get to know that person so much more, you're in more conversations, you know, it's hard to know somebody if you're not talking

Amen, I love that, thank you for encouraging our listeners to read through the Bible this year. I love that.

Honestly, if you guys want, I

If we can do it, you can do it

Yeah, and it's just really just the Holy Bible, the YouVersion, there's plans in there, 'cause we were thinking about how do we do this, you know

Genesis, Chapter One, is the beginning of the Bible

Yeah, it's written chronologically

Yeah, there's a chronological plan that was in there. For me, as a storyteller, I've never read the Bible in this way, because it literally was, you know, the events from the beginning to the end, in chronological order, wasn't just reading Genesis to Revelation.

Right, 'cause that's not necessarily in chronological order, yeah.

Yeah, and so for me, I'm like, whoa, this makes so much more sense, to see literally the whole like, especially, the New Testament, I mean the Old Testament, literally, kinda like, flow and me playing it as a movie in my head, you can see like the cross space between each book, and stuff like that, where the new characters are coming in but they're related, it's just, it just really opened up my eyes in a whole new way.

Love that

So, for me, for this one, if you knew exactly what God's Will was for your marriage, would it encourage you to pursue it? My answer is maybe, and that's because I know in having lived life, and seen other people live life, that God's Will can be scary at times. Because we sometimes don't understand it, we sometimes question it, it takes faith, a tremendous amount of faith, to trust in the unseen and in the uncertain. So, if He were to reveal that to me, would I jump in with both feet, and be like, okay cool, I'm on board. I don't know that I would, because

I think a majority of us would probably agree with you

Right, and because I have flesh, and you know, God's Will is amazing, but it's not always


Designed, yeah, to make us happy, and so. But that's not why we're here, that's not our purpose, you now, and so, we're here to love God and love others, and to establish and further His Kingdom. And so

And living a, you know, in God's Will is literally hard. Living a Christian life is hard, because you get tried all the time, and it's just funny, it's one of those things where it's like, you know, you pray that you want patience, for whatever reason, and God doesn't just grant, He's not a genie, He's not gonna grant to you patience, He's gonna test you

He teaches you

With patience, like, oh my God, why am I going through this again. He's like, well, you stopped learning your lesson

It's a scary thing to pray for

He doesn't just grant you wishes, so it's definitely hard.

He gives us His Spirit, and then empowers us to walk in the things that He tells us to walk in. Like, endurance, and patience, and peace when everything's chaotic

But I love Sam's answer too for this one, in just that your will really does, that's how you know, you know, that's how you know God's Will, because you're in His Word and you're praying, and your will will align with His, so even if He were to reveal that Will to me, if I was close enough to Him, I would understand this isn't about me, this isn't about my happiness, this is about other people, and about furthering His Kingdom. And, like you said Aaron, it's the Spirit would give me the strength, and the courage to accomplish what He's called me to do, and us to do in our marriage.

Yeah, I don't even remember what the question is, but I'm just going off on a tangent

Go for it, go for it

Two things, one of our pastors told us within this past year that has absolutely stuck with me is, if your vertical relationship with God is aligned, and good, your horizontal relationships with people on Earth, are that much better as well. So, if I can't have a good vertical relationship with God, my relationship with my wife isn't gonna be as great.


So, if I focus, naturally, if you're having a bad relationship with somebody, bad relationship with your wife, you stop focusing on that person specifically, and start focusing on your vertical relationship with God, naturally, you'll start aligning and then your horizontal relationships start to align as well. That was just a big thing that I heard, and it just really stuck with me. And the other thing is, a lot of people just want joy in their life, and the pastor broke it down, if you want JOY, what's called an acronym, or whatever

Yeah, acronym, yeah

So if you put J, you put Jesus first, at all times, and then you put Others second, and you put Yourself last, naturally, you become joyous. And, that's how I've always been, and I don't know if that's something that my parents instilled in me, actually, once you become a Christian, that's when you put Jesus first, but I've always put others before myself. And, it's kinda like that saying where it feels better to give than to receive, you know. So, I think about, that's where a lot of joy comes from. When you're selfish, it's really absolutely hard for you to be joyous, because you're not being fulfilled.

So, what you're saying is, in our marriage how we can fulfill God's Will for our marriage, and our lives, is to love God, love each other, and love others. I love that, because that's essentially

Relationship, focus on Jesus, focus on your wife, and don't even think about yourself.

Yeah, yeah, more specific

Can you imagine if your wife just focused on you, and you focused on your wife, like you're filled with so much love.

Oh, man, it's that I'll take up the cross thing, right? Lay myself down, you know

Super easy

I love that.

Well, I really enjoyed just sitting back listening to you guys, this has been great.

Did you guys even know that Sam could talk this much?

I didn't, this is great.

This is the most that I've ever heard Sam talk

I wanna jump in and just again, just thank you for your vulnerability, and Amanda you had mentioned in saying that sometimes if we were to have known God's Will, the big picture, we would be scared, or it would be hard. So in keeping in line with that theme, have you guys ever passed up participating in something that God's invited you to do because you were afraid or because you thought you weren't qualified to do it?

That's a hard question. The main thing for me that comes to mind, just off the top of my head, is I had kinda always felt a pull to sing on our worship teams at different churches and stuff, but just never felt good enough to do it. And, I did actually get up the courage, I've been a Christian most of my life, and so I ignored kinda that pull for many years, until our, a couple churches ago, so that was like maybe three, four years ago. And I got up the courage and I sang in a little audition thing, and they loved it, and I got out there, and God gave me the courage to kinda do that, and so, but the fear of kinda not being good enough, which is so ridiculous, and I know its ridiculous, but you just get in your head and you wonder what people are gonna think. I don't know, we all have some form of comparison in our lives, you know, and then we all have those insecurities speaking in our ears. Sometimes we're great at casting them down, and sometimes we believe them. So, that's kinda the only thing that I can think of, and I'm so glad that I did it.

Cool, that's a good little story

I don't think I really have an answer for it, because I went through a season where I was passionate about music, and I was drumming, and God put it on me to see if I could do music in the church, and I played drums for awhile. I was nervous, but I did that. I feel like that whatever passions I've had, or callings, that He's given me, I've kind of at least tried it, but I've never had, for example, the desire to be a preacher, or anything like that.

But you tell stories with your videos.

Yeah, absolutely, but if someone would be like, hey, come tell us a sermon, I'd be like, no thanks. They'd be like, well why not, well, God hasn't put it on my heart to do so. Like, I don't feel comfortable doing it, and God hasn't like tugged me in that direction. I don't really see why

Yeah, Sam doesn't really get nervous or anything

And I really don't fall under peer pressure

Right And at the end of the day, we just wanna be obedient to the things God's given us, and like you said, not just wanting that other ministry that someone else has, because it seems like a greater ministry. But, take what God's given us, you know, being a mother, being a filmmaker, and using our marriage to glorify God, and to love people, and to show them who Christ is through our lives, and through our actions, and through our words. That's what God wants. We want Him to say one day when we look at Him, well done, good and faithful servant.


You've taken what I've given you, and you invested it well. And, that's the purpose of this whole episode, actually. Is to encourage those listening that, like, hey, it may not look like what other people are doing, but it's still God's Will for your life to serve God this way, to love your wife, to love your husband, to disciple your children, to love them. To love others, and to proclaim His Gospel to the world, through our lives, actions and words. So, we're gonna, we're not gonna get through all the questions, and that's okay, But, we want to get to this last question, and it's a really important one, and you better get the answer right, Amanda. I'm just kidding. In your own words, what is a marriage after God?

Want me to go?

Yeah, sure

I, you know, if you want to learn anything from God, I think you just need to open the Bible, and I feel like that God is very specific in the Bible, by giving us Chapters like Ephesians Chapter 5 and 1 Peter, and you know, there are specific instructions towards husbands and wives. And it's actually pretty insane

How specific it is?

Yeah, how specific it is, especially 1 Peter Chapter three verse seven, I have it pulled up right here, and it says "Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live "with your wives" It's funny that it says wives, 'cause I kinda think of it as one person living with multiple wives.

It's not though, yeah

No, no, no, no

"And treat them with respect, as the weaker partner, "and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, "so that nothing will hinder your prayers." That part right there, hinder your prayers, meaning if you do not show your wife respect in all these things, either God will not receive your prayers in full, or

You won't be able to pray

Or, yeah

Too frustrated or

Find it difficult to pray, that's kinda a big deal. So, it's like God's given you all the blueprints on how to have a godly Marriage, and its all, I don't feel like He's just kinda given us this life just to try to figure it out, and tell each other how to live a godly life. It's like in the Book, He's giving this message specifically for us to read it, you know, generations to come, and I think its' important for me as a dad and as a man in the house to make sure that my daughter knows that this is how she needs to be treated by a man, and now, having a son, how he needs to treat a woman. So, honestly, for me, it's just literally read the Bible and all your answers

And do what It says, yeah, I like that

Seems very simple. I read a book once called Sacred Marriage, that I totally need to read again, it's just a fantastic book, I forget the author,

Gary Thomas

Yeah, it's such a great book, and I read it years ago at the beginning of our marriage, but there was a quote in it that has stuck with me ever since then, and it says, I don't know if this is verbatim, but it says "Marriage is not meant to make us happy, but holy" And that was a really huge idea when I read it, and just, like does God care about our happiness, of course He does, but not ever at the expense of our holiness.


Sam was talking about our journey through the Bible last year, and reading through the Old Testament, is like crazy, it's wild, it like strings together a lot of the stories that we've heard kinda growing up as Christians, it's linked things together, ideas. But, I think a lot of the Old Testament was included in the Bible because God, it just shows us the measures that God took to ensure His people were holy, and consecrated. And to make sure that they not only looked different, but they lived differently, and when they didn't, there were consequences. And a lot of the times, it was death. Which of course, there were incredibly high standards, and that led for our need for Jesus. Thank God, I'm so glad that

Thank Him

I don't live in those days because those were it says crazy days. But, a marriage after God, seeks to be holy, I think, and needs to be intimate, whole and aware and active in its pursuit of loving God and loving others. And I know that's what we try to do, and we pretty much fail most of the time.

Then you get back up and keep going

Sam is perfect, everybody before himself, but I just think that the idea of holiness is something that all marriages are called to. And it's not something that can be accomplished on your own, it has to be through the Fruits of the Spirit, and just the Holy Spirit in general. And inviting Him into your everyday lives, and specifically parenting too. We're trying to remember to invite the Holy Spirit into every aspect of your life, is something for me, I have to remember constantly to do that, whether we are in a argument, or in a heated parenting moment, or at just different things, whatever life throws at you.

I love that Amanda

Yeah, it's a lot of intentionality to strive for holiness.

Both those definitions I thought were really powerful. Thank you for that, so Sam, Amanda, where can people find you on Instagram, what's you guys' handles?

Our last name is very easy to spell, it's kind of like Smith is a breeze

No, it's not

Our last names are kind of difficult, but my Instagram handle is @SamCiurdar, and Amanda's is @AmandaCiurdar, and our last names are spelled C-I-U-R-D-A-R, good luck everybody.

AmandaCi or SamCi we should pop up, I think

Yeah, and you should pull them, they're great people they post about their life, and what's going on, so go follow them. And as usual, well first of all, thank you Sam and Amanda for coming on and sharing a little bit of your life with us, and encouraging all of the marriages that are listening that God has a Will for all of us, and we all get to walk in it, and we all get to be in it. So, yeah, thank you.

Thanks for having us

Absolutely, thanks for having us, for sure.

Before we close, as usual, we're gonna close with a prayer, and Jennifer, would you like to pray for us?

Sure Dear Lord, thank You for Your Holy Word. Thank you for sharing with us what Your Will is for our lives, and what Your will is for our marriages. We ask that we would continue growing in knowledge and understanding of Your Word. As husbands and wives, please help us to build and keep your Word as our strong foundation. We pray against our flesh from getting in the way of doing Your Will. When we start to wrestle with our flesh, Holy Spirit please defend us and help us to have victory over our flesh. Renew our perspective of life and marriage, so that we may see what You see. Reveal to us the bigger picture of how Your Will is being done in us, and through us. Motivate our hearts to use every part of our lives to live for You. May we understand the impact our ministry has as we walk faithfully every day with You and with each other. May we fulfill our part as Your body to share Your gospel with this lost world. In Jesus' Name, Amen.

Amen, thanks for joining us this week, and we look forward to having you next week as we get into Chapter 13, Part 13 of this series. See you next week.

Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at And let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

May 01, 2019
You're Invited To Join Our Book Launch Team!

We want to invite you to join the Marriage After God book launch team. We need your help and know that we can't do it without you :)

PS> you'll be able to download and read the books today :)

Apr 30, 2019
MAG 11: Why It's Important To Take Inventory In Your Marriage w/ Elisha & Katie Voetberg from Now That We're A Family Podcast

Join the Marriage After God movement and order a copy of our new book today.

Quote From the book:

“...what we see as inadequate, God sees as enough.”


*Dear Lord,

We thank You for the way you created us and we thank you for your rich provision. Thank you for equipping us for the work you have for us to do. May our eyes be opened so that we can see all of the wonderful ways you have equipped us. Use us to encourage our spouse in the ways you have equipped them as well. We ask that you use every one of our marriage to bring you glory and to spread your gospel. We pray against fear and against the temptation to bury the gifts you have given to us. We ask that you remove our insecurities far from our hearts and help us to trust in you. We pray that we would walk in confidence as we chase boldly after you and as we pursue doing the very things you created us and created our marriages to do!

In Jesus’ name, amen!*


[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage after God.

[Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

[Aaron] And today, we're in part 11 of the Marriage after God series, and we're going to be talking with Katie and Elisha Voetberg about taking inventory. Welcome to the Marriage after God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.

[Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife.

[Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution.

[Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade.

[Aaron] And so far, we have four young children.

[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through vlogging and social media.

[Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day.

[Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life.

[Aaron] Love.

[Jennifer] And power.

[Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God.

[Jennifer] Together.

[Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.

[Jennifer] This is Marriage after God. So today's guests are Elisha and Katie Voetberg from the podcast Now That We're Family.

[Aaron] So before we get to the interview with Katie and Elisha Voetberg, we would love to ask anyone that's listening if they have not already to leave a review for us. That helps other people find the podcast. It helps the rankings in iTunes. So if you have a moment, leave us a star rating, leave us a text review. We'd love to see that.

[Jennifer] We also wanna invite you guys to check out our new book Marriage after God, which is available at our store. So just go to to check that out and get your copy today.

[Aaron] Yeah, that's the whole point of this series, is we're promoting our book coming out on June fourth, and we would love for you to get a copy of it. But following in the series, we're almost done with it, and we're excited to have you. Okay, Katie, Elisha, friends of ours.

[Jennifer] Thank you for being here.

[Elisha] No, thank you!

[Katie] We're so stoked to be here today.

[Aaron] We're here in our garage. Usually we record in our office, so there might be a little bit more echo, but this fits all of us. It's this fun little setup we got, I love it.

[Jennifer] And it's in person.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] So I feel like it's just fun all around.

[Aaron] So thanks for joining us, and no one is probably gonna know you, so why don't you guys tell everyone who you are, how long you've been married, kids, stuff like that.

[Elisha] Right on, yeah. So my name is Elisha Peter Voetberg, and this is my lovely wife Kathryn Joy Voetberg, and we've been married for three years now, and we're pregnant with our third child.

[Jennifer] Woohoo!

[Elisha] So we've got a two-year-old. Yeah, we're really pumped. We've got our two-year-old, Leon Tucker, and our daughter Lucy's just about a year, and then we've got our third baby on the way. And we love being a part of fellowship with you guys, doing fellowship.

[Aaron] Oh, I forgot to mention we go to church with them.

[Elisha] Yeah, that's right. That's a huge highlight for us. And we're just really excited about life with each other and seeing what God can do through the family unit and through marriage.

[Aaron] Cool, and that's why you guys started your podcast, was you loved what God was doing in your marriage and in your family, and we'll get into some more of your guys' background in a little bit. But yeah, if you haven't checked out their podcast, it's Now That We Are Family, and you can just search for that on iTunes or anywhere you can get podcasts, actually, so.

[Jennifer] Awesome, okay, moving right along.

[Aaron] This is our fun little section. We love this part.

[Jennifer] Yeah, we wanted to invite you guys to join us for the icebreaker question, which is, what is one of your funniest marriage moments?

[Elisha] Funniest, Katie?

[Aaron] Katie has one, and she's prepared.

[Katie] I am prepared. No, well, I would have to say one of our funniest marriage moments is probably the most ironic marriage moment, 'cause it was actually a fight.

[Elisha] That's true.

[Katie] But people think it's funny.

[Elisha] It's funny now, right?

[Katie] Yeah, exactly.

[Aaron] Not in the moment, but it is absolutely funny now for everyone else.

[Katie] Exactly, so it happened at our honeymoon, and I think it was the first wake-up call Elisha had to who he had married.

[Aaron] Oh, no.

[Elisha] Yeah, so yeah, I guess I'll tell the story. Katie and I, you're gonna hear more about our families, but we were both brought up in big families, and Katie's family was extremely strict when it came to sugar intake. And my family definitely was health-conscientious, but certainly not as strict regarding sugar as Katie's family was.

[Katie] Nowhere close.

[Elisha] Nowhere close.

[Aaron] Yeah. And I think it was day four of our honeymoon, and I viewed our honeymoon as being a time that was celebratory, and you can kinda splurge.

[Aaron] Yeah, which means it doesn't matter what you eat.

[Elisha] It doesn't matter what you eat.

[Aaron] You can have as much as you want.

[Elisha] Exactly, that's how I was viewing it. And so, it was the evening of our fourth night, I think, the fourth day in our honeymoon, and we decided to get a little treat for a movie that we were gonna watch. And so, I got a pack of Skittles, just like the normal size. It wasn't the super size, it wasn't the party size. It was just the normal serving size of Skittles. And Katie didn't want anything, and that really blew my mind. I was like, you're not gonna get a treat? She goes, no. She was like, I'll have some of yours, which is classic, right?

[Jennifer] Yeah, you're like, no you're not.

[Elisha] Classic, yeah, exactly. And so, we started watching the movie, and I had a few Skittles, and then Katie took three Skittles and she told me that that was gonna be enough for her.

[Katie] No, I had, okay, yeah. Okay, I guess, but this is a classic like, let me help you tell the story, honey. But I ended up eating 11 Skittles.

[Aaron] She remembers the exact number.

[Katie] Which was splurging for me. And Elisha was like, you're counting your Skittles? But then I took the Skittles away from him.

[Elisha] Yeah, after I had eaten maybe 20 or 25 Skittles.

[Katie] That's a lot of Skittles.

[Elisha] Yeah.

[Katie] Up until this point, I'd maybe had like one. Anyways, like, my family, I'm one of 11 kids, and we would split a bag of Skittles and make it last for two or three days.

[Aaron] Wow, that's incredible, actually.

[Katie] Anyways, yeah, so it led to kind of a crazy fight, and since then, I realize that I am the one that most people don't agree with on this story.

[Aaron] Yeah, Skittles are usually a single-event, single-instance candy.

[Elisha] Yeah, that's how I viewed it, exactly. She wanted to save it.

[Aaron] It's one serving, isn't it, like, the whole bag?

[Elisha] Exactly, I thought it was one serving too.

[Katie] I wouldn't believe it, and we had to read the back.

[Jennifer] Awesome.

[Aaron] That is funny now, for sure.

[Elisha] It's funny now. Well, you know what's funny is that we're laughing about it, but she was dead serious at the moment. She grabbed the bag from me.

[Katie] I hid 'em.

[Elisha] Yeah, and I thought she was being playful and kind of flirtatious. I was like, oh, come on, give me the Skittles back. She's like, no, we'll finish 'em later, like we can have 'em tomorrow or the next day. I was like, are you kidding me? I want them now.

[Aaron] I wonder how many people are gonna really relate to this. They're like, this is exactly how we are with Skittles.

[Jennifer] That's so awesome.

[Aaron] We both would get our own bags of Skittles.

[Jennifer] For sure.

[Aaron] And our own bag of, what else would we get?

[Jennifer] And remind each other that we're not sharing.

[Aaron] Please don't have any of mine. Get your own bag if you want some.

[Elisha] I don't think Katie can view you the same way anymore, now that she knows that.

[Jennifer] That's okay. Okay, so we're gonna, we always share a quote, and we're gonna share a quote from Marriage after God from chapter 11, Take Inventory. Aaron, do you wanna?

[Aaron] Yeah, so what we see as inadequate, God sees as enough. It's a smaller part of a bigger quote in a bigger context, but the idea is that oftentimes, we might see things that we have in our life, abilities, skills, and they're not good enough for God or adequate for what God wants to do in our life or through our life. And so we think we need something else. Oh, I don't have what it takes, that kind of mentality, but it's exactly what God's already given us, and he requires and desires us to invest it as we have it. It doesn't mean that we don't get better at things, but that's kind of the context of this, and we're gonna talk about this idea of taking inventory and we're gonna ask the questions to you guys, 'cause you guys haven't read the book yet, which is totally fine.

[Elisha] Right.

[Aaron] Because I think we all can learn and start to understand in our life that God's given us things, and he desires us to invest them, and not because we're trying to commend ourselves to God, but he wants us to invest them for his sake, for our sake, and it's because we love him that we invest them. So that's the quote, and then we can get into the topic and some questions for you guys.

[Elisha] Cool.

[Aaron] Are you guys excited about the questions?

[Elisha] I am excited.

[Aaron] Okay.

[Jennifer] Okay, you guys are a young family figuring out what God has for you as a couple. How has that journey been so far? So you can describe things like how you feel about it, highs and lows, or maybe a significant story that stands out to you?

[Katie] Yeah, so I think there have been a lot of highs and lows in our three years of marriage, and I think our first month of marriage was kind of indicative to that. Elisha was making I think $1800 at the time working at a restaurant, and our rent was 1150. So I don't even know how we quite managed to make it all work that month. We were doing a ton of odd jobs, and we started three different businesses our first month of marriage, and got pregnant.

[Aaron] A little bit of things.

[Katie] Yeah, like all of those moving parts I think really affected the last few years, but I think it's been so cool to see how God has worked to make all those things work together, even though there was such a random smattering of things over the years. And I think we've had so much fun, even though we didn't always see the plan, and I think what's cool now is that we trust the process so much more, and we trust each other so much more. We trust God. There were so many things through starting those businesses. Like, well, one of 'em provides for us now. It's a network marketing company, and I think it really has not only provided for us now, but it allows us to pursue our passions, and it helped give us thicker skin to handle rejection and stuff like that. So there were a lot of ups and downs just in that, you know, when you start one business. Elisha was getting his real estate license, so that was new for us, being employed, and then being unemployed it feels like when you don't have a deal. But I just think it's really cool that now, when we're uncertain of today or what tomorrow holds, 'cause I feel like as entrepreneurs, that is life. We just trust each other so much more, and we're like, you know God's gonna work these things together, and we see how he's using those things we started in our first few months of marriage now.

[Jennifer] I think that's so encouraging, what you're sharing, because I think everybody has that tendency to wanna know what the next hundred steps are, like, see that bigger picture right away. But I think what you're saying is so encouraging to hear, to remind ourselves we have to just be able to trust God and trust our spouse with just that next step.

[Elisha] Mmhmm.

[Aaron] Yeah, Elisha, how do you, so, you guys have started businesses, making barely ends meet, which all of us have been there. Some people that are listening right now are probably right there right now. And you're just trying to figure out life. You guys have been married for three years, you have kids. You're just trying to figure out a lot of things, which is totally good, totally normal. But has there been times over the last few years that you feel like you're not moving in any direction, or how could God possibly use all these random difficulties and where we're at in our life?

[Elisha] Absolutely. I know there's been numerous times where I've had those exact thoughts probably verbatim in my brain, and even looking back in retrospect over three years, and even though that's not a lot of time to some people, it's enough time for us to really realize that God does work all things together for good. There are some things that I know he's gonna continue to work out over the next 10 and 20 and 30 years of our life. But when you live, early on, month to month when it comes to your paycheck, and then you get pregnant in the middle of that, and then you get pregnant with your second child when you're kind of in the same position, it really makes you realize that the Lord does provide, and I think that that has helped me really embrace the season for what it is. I know that so often, everybody wants to arrive, right? You wanna be there, whatever there is.

[Aaron] Yeah, whatever that there is.

[Elisha] Whatever that is.

[Aaron] How do we get there faster?

[Elisha] Exactly. It might be a level of your income. It might be the size of your home or the quality of your vehicles that you're driving, but looking back over these last three years and seeing what the Lord's done, it's made us enjoy the journey and enjoy the process and trust the Lord in that. And when I look at those times where I was questioning what the heck I was doing with my life and what the Lord was gonna use with these things that I was doing, I look back, and so far, he's been so faithful to, in spite of me, a lot of times, use them for his purpose and for his glory.

[Aaron] Yeah, so, I love that, and you know, this topic we're talking about, take inventory, is off chapter 11 of our book, and the idea of the chapter, we're not gonna go into too much of it, is that we can look at our lives and realize that there are, not certain things, that everything in our life, the inventory of our life, can be evaluated and looked at and say, okay, Lord, how are you using that season of life, that idea, that business that we wanted to start or that passion we have or that pain we felt? And so, what you're kinda saying is you've been looking back and saying, okay, I didn't know what I was doing then, but God's using that now.

[Elisha] Yes.

[Aaron] So when you look back over the last few years, and we're gonna get into your family in the next question, you look back over your life, taking this idea of inventory, can you guys pinpoint, be like, oh, wow, these things in our life, this way we were raised, certain giftings we have, talents, that's our inventory, that's what's on the shelf for us. Can you name a few of those things, and then we're gonna go into family next.

[Elisha] Sure, yeah. We'll stick with our marriage so far, 'cause we haven't gotten into Katie and I's growing up experience, but I look at the businesses that we started in that first month, or even the job that I was doing. I was a bartender at the time, and obviously, you're dealing with people. You're dealing with all sorts of people as a bartender, and it's so easy for me to look at that season of life as being, man, I was just there to get tips and to go home and to pay rent.

[Aaron] Right, meaningless waste of time, yeah.

[Elisha] Exactly.

[Aaron] However you feel about it.

[Elisha] Yeah, exactly. And of course, I was interacting with eternal beings every day, whether that was my coworkers or my boss and my managers, and then, of course, the patrons that were coming and consuming alcohol, or buying food at the restaurant. And so I look back and I think, man, the Lord was preparing me just to have empathy and sympathy for all types of people. And then I think of the businesses that we started in that first month, and it was funny, 'cause we really acquired a lot of skillsets because we were kind of hacks when it came to, one of those businesses was an online music academy because I'm a musician, and I wanted to be able to offer my music lessons in an online format, and neither Katie or I were video people or really recording-type people.

[Aaron] Yeah, but you guys did a good job. I remember you guys, it's still up, right?

[Elisha] It is still up.

[Katie] It is still up, yeah.

[Elisha] It's effective, and people still use it. But we just figured it out. We just decided to dive in and go for it, and that was good for me to get over my pride and to let go of that perfectionism mindset that so often keeps us from taking any action.

[Katie] And I think too it was good for us because, like, I remember when we first got married and you were a little more focused on your image then, and I was kind of like, I don't know, I was kind of a hack. I think I made you a little nervous, the way I threw around my image.

[Elisha] Let's just do it, let's just do it.

[Katie] Yeah, I was like, let's just do it, put it up. And I remember the first time I showed you a video that I was gonna post on Facebook. It was just a little parody I made, and Elisha's like, you cannot post that. Like, there is no way.

[Elisha] That's funny.

[Aaron] You're like, it's going up.

[Katie] Yeah. Well, through Voetberg Music Academy, we ended up doing a lot of those little commercials or little parody videos together, and I think that that really, I mean, we use that now.

[Elisha] Yep, absolutely.

[Katie] And it just really helped us swallow our pride I think and just go for things.

[Jennifer] Explain that a little bit more when you say we use that now.

[Katie] Well, we use that now on YouTube is probably one of the biggest ways that we use that in just family vlogging now that we're a family on YouTube as well. And I think that that is kind of what spawned the podcast, because if we hadn't gotten enough confidence to just document our lives, I don't think we would have ever taken that next step to podcasting.

[Aaron] That's good. So right now, what you're currently doing for the Lord, for your family, you can reach back into the inventory of those experiences and the inventory of those challenges, the trials and errors, and use that now and feel more confident in moving forward and, like you said, you wouldn't have been able to do it now if you didn't try it then or have those experiences. That's awesome.

[Jennifer] That is so cool. Okay, so we touched on that we were gonna get into your families a little bit. Katie, you mentioned that you're from a big family, so how do you guys see the unique ways that you were raised or maybe family type being used for what God has you doing today?

[Elisha] Yeah, so I was one of 10 children, all from the same mommy and daddy, and my parents are still married. They stayed married throughout our entire childhood, and they're in a great marriage.

[Aaron] Which is rare these days.

[Elisha] Yeah, and Katie is the oldest of 11 children, where it's same mommy and daddy for all the kiddos, and they're in a vibrant marriage right now. And so we were both homeschooled and brought up just with very Bible-centered homes. We read the Bible every single day as a family at the breakfast table, and sometimes at the dinner table, and I think that when I look at my history, not only was it an extremely enjoyable and relationship-rich time that I loved with my siblings and with my parents, and I know Katie feels the same way.

[Katie] Yes.

[Elisha] About her childhood, where we both just look back at them with really fond memories. I see that because my parents and Katie's parents, but I'll speak for myself right now, Because my parents become comfortable being unconventional and being counter-cultural, I grew up with this mindset that there are so many blessings in being different than the world.

[Aaron] I like that.

[Elisha] And I think my parents were the ones that were convicted by the Lord, and obviously, I was just along for the ride as a child and I was following in their leading, but they really exemplified to me that yes, a lot of times, initially, making those decisions to have many children or for the mom to stay home and be with the children and homeschool them or to take 'em out of the public and homeschool them, they can be challenging up front, and they can be challenging even for an extended amount of time. But the payoff is so worth it. So I think that growing up with a big family, in a big family and with parents that really trusted the Lord with their finances, with how many children they're going to have, it made me realize that I've adopted a lot of these mindsets not even knowing it. And so when I hear people that are my age say, well, we couldn't afford to have children now, I just think to myself, well, yeah you could. Where's that coming from? And I think that statements like that are so commonly accepted in our culture and in the world and they're never challenged, and I just don't believe that. I believe that you could probably find a way to afford to have children. I think that you can find a way to afford for the mother to stay home and not go to work and to even homeschool her children. And I think you can find a way to have a romantic and fun and flirtatious marriage, even while you have a bunch of kids, because I saw it exemplified to me.

[Aaron] Yeah, that's the magic right there.

[Elisha] Yeah, and so I'm not saying that I know how to do it; I just believe it can be done, and I think that Katie feels similarly.

[Katie] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think sometimes, there is this mindset of, we have to do things how everyone else does them, and I think the way we grew up, like, I had some of the best years of my life living in a tent and a trailer, you know? Like, we did that for two years so my parents could save up a down payment for their house, and they had six kids at the time, but those are some of the best memories of my childhood. And I think sometimes, we have this misconceived perception that, oh, we need to earn this amount of money or we need to take our kids to Disneyland or we need to be able to provide these things for our kids, and I just don't have that perspective at all. Because of the way I was raised, I just have incredible relationships with my parents, and I have such amazing memories of growing up in unique situations. I guess my experience helps dispel some of those societal norms.

[Aaron] Yeah. So you, you have a lot of resources at your fingertips from the way you were raised, the versatility, the flexibility to make decisions that might be, hey, if we slow down here, we can speed up over here, or if we lessen what we're spending money on over here, we can have money to do something over here. You have those things at your fingertips to use now because of how, and you didn't even get to choose it.

[Elisha and Katie] Exactly.

[Aaron] Right? 'Cause that's kind of some of the things that we like to point out and we want our listeners to know, fortunately your family stories are powerful and just relationally rich, and then some people listening are gonna be like, well, I didn't have a family like that. My family wasn't that great. I didn't have strong Christian parents. But our point in this idea of taking inventory is that your story and your family doesn't give you something extra. It's what God has given you. And my family story's different, similar in some ways, but different. Jennifer's family story's different. And we we don't have your story to use in what God has for us to do ministry in, right?

[Elisha] That's right.

[Aaron] We use our story, the inventory that we have that God's given us. And so, that's kind of what's awesome about taking inventory of our lives, is our listeners can take inventory and be like, and I wanna encourage them that are listening not to throw out their story 'cause it's not your story.

[Elisha] That's right, absolutely.

[Aaron] Because they do have inventory, and God wants us to look at what we have and what he's given us and say, here you go, Lord.

[Elisha] That's right.

[Aaron] So here's my family and how I was raised, the good things and the bad things that happened to me as a child that I had no choice in, and how do you want me to use this for you, Lord? How do you want me to invest this? How do you wanna redeem this in my life? How do you wanna turn it into something for you, not for me, not for my sake. And so, maybe that gives someone listening right now peace and actually some courage in their own inventory.

[Jennifer] Yeah, and something I wanna highlight is just that how cool that God would have you guys here on the show and be able to share your story, 'cause I think it will be an encouragement to someone. 'Cause like you said, there's other ways of living that have been expressed and accepted in our culture, and your story's different, and the fact that you're here and you're sharing and whoever's listening could be encouraged by this, I love that.

[Aaron] Yeah, that story by itself right now, whether it has any other implications in your life, could potentially minister to someone today, which is amazing, right?

[Katie] Incredible.

[Aaron] And that's just one small way that God uses what we are, what we have that he's given to us, is just by saying yes to him, which is a theme that we mention throughout our whole book, is saying yes to God.

[Jennifer] Okay, so when we say yes to God, sometimes insecurities flare up, fears, things like that. So what are some of your biggest insecurities when it comes to using your gifts and talents for God?

[Elisha] You know, it's funny, 'cause I think that, even piggybacking on talking about our family, our unique story and our unique experiences can often be debilitating to us, and we can oftentimes find ourselves experiencing paralysis by analysis because we feel like we're from such a unique perspective, we can't relate with people. How are we gonna be able to connect and really encourage and exhort, whether that's fellow believers or minister to people that are not saved, and oftentimes, I mean, you can look at that from two ways. One, I feel extremely strong in my faith because of what my parents have done before me, but it also makes me realize it's not about me. It's not about Katie. It's about Jesus Christ. And I think of, is it II Peter chapter one, I think it's verses three and four that whereby are given unto you all things.

[Aaron] That pertain to life and godliness, yeah.

[Elisha] That pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of him who's called you to glory and virtue. And that's not the prerequisite. The prerequisite for that is not coming from a Christian family. The prerequisite for that's not coming from the fourth generation or fifth generation of Bible-believing Christians; it's being in Christ.

[Aaron] It's being in Christ.

[Katie] That's good.

[Elisha] It's being a new creation in Christ. But the cool thing about that is that legacy is a real thing, and you have the ability in Christ to start a new legacy. We were just at my grandfather's funeral a week and a half ago, and it was really powerful to be there with his six children and then 42 grandchildren.

[Aaron] Wow, that's incredible.

[Elisha] And this is my mother's father, and to hear his story of being orphaned at 12 years old, heavily abused, on the street starving, an alcoholic father who ended up being a felon, never knowing his mother and never knowing the love of Christ in his home and making a decision to follow the Lord at 16 years of age, and the legacy that's come from that.

[Katie] It's incredible, and we get to benefit from that.

[Jennifer] That's powerful, wow.

[Elisha] Absolutely, yeah, really is powerful.

[Aaron] Wow, love that.

[Elisha] And so, to get back to your question, insecurities, I think it's so easy to feel inadequate, 'cause of course, apart from Christ, we are inadequate, but that's not where we're at anymore. So you need to accept the reality that hey, we're in Christ, we are a new creation in Christ, and we do have all things pertaining to life and godliness, and therefore, we are equipped. And so I think our youth can play a factor in that, not feeling old enough.

[Katie] I definitely think that plays in too. You feel like, well, I don't have enough experience, you know, life experience.

[Aaron] I know, you're not allowed to have a podcast about family yet until you've had a family for a super long time, right?

[Katie] Exactly, exactly.

[Elisha] Exactly, that's right.

[Katie] So I think we do wanna be thoughtful in that and share what we're experiencing more and what we're learning in the moment versus teaching, 'cause obviously, our oldest is two, you know what I'm saying? Elisha and I have been married for three years.

[Aaron] Right, there's things you actually don't know, and that's fine.

[Katie] Yes. So I think we want to be wise and cautious in that, but that doesn't mean that we can't encourage someone who's in a similar situation.

[Elisha] Yeah, and I think that even though there's so much that we have yet to learn and that we need to learn as life goes on, I know that Katie and I are really excited about family, and we're excited about growth, and I think that regardless of what stage of life you're in, if you're in Christ Jesus, you can be excited about the future.

[Aaron] Ooh, I like that.

[Elisha] I know that's where we're at right now.

[Aaron] So that sounds very similar to ours. When we launched Unveiled Wife and then Husband Revolution, how long were we married? Five years?

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] And people even asked us, how long have you been married, like, older people, which rightfully so asking us, but I always tell people, we're not marriage experts. We've never proclaimed to be marriage experts. That would have been wrong of us to do. We're marriage storytellers.

[Jennifer] Yeah, storytellers. We're sharing our experience.

[Aaron] How are we failing, what's God teaching us, and again, going back to our book, one of the themes is like what you said, it's not us. It's not my experiences that is changing anyone's hearts or that has any value, other than Christ using it. And it's his story. It's his vocation, it's his ministry, not ours. It's his message, not ours. And so, as long as we're going back to the very thing that's changing us and transforming us, like, the gospel's the power of God unto salvation, right? The gospel and Christ in us through the Holy Spirit, that's what we're doing in this world. So we've had the same exact inadequacies and fears almost every time we launch anything. Launching this podcast, we were like, we don't know how to do podcasts. So I hope that encourages people listening to realize, wow, if God's calling me out, and not if, he is calling me out and wants me to follow him and wants me to use my life and the inventory of my life for his glory, they should be encouraged to know that even if they feel doubt and fear, that it's not them anyway. It's Christ doing it.

[Katie] Exactly.

[Elisha] Amen.

[Jennifer] I think it's important to note we have a real enemy who does not like us using the gift and things that God's given us to glorify God.

[Aaron] No way, yeah.

[Jennifer] And so there's gonna be opposition to that, and I think our flesh is sensitive to that. So sometimes it does come in the form of insecurities or fears and things that we're afraid of, but it's just temptation from the enemy to try and distract us.

[Katie] That's a great perspective.

[Aaron] Yeah, but I love that you guys use wisdom and thoughtfulness. I don't think we should test God and run into the middle of the street and say, save me!

[Katie] Definitely not.

[Aaron] We need to present, again, going back to the taking inventory, we don't just say like, oh, I'm gonna use this thing in my life this way. No, we say, okay, Lord, here's what I have. This is what you've given me, this abuse as a child, your grandpa story, or my godly upbringing, or this schooling I went to. Whatever it is, these gifts, these natural abilities that you've given me, here you go. What do you want? How do you wanna arrange this and turn it into a clay pot or a basketball hoop or whatever it is that he wants to mold it into.

[Jennifer] It's in humility and submission to his will and his purposes, which leads me to the next question. I'd love for you guys to share on this. What's the purpose of all the gifts and things that he gives to you, or to us? What is the purpose?

[Elisha] Yeah, I think big picture answer is it's for God's glory and for the furtherance of the gospel.

[Aaron] Yeah, we talked about this on Sunday, didn't we?

[Elisha] We did, that's right, a few days ago. And the way that plays out practically with each couple I think is obviously gonna look different, 'cause there are so many different skillsets and passions. And it's fun when you accept that big picture of, man, this is for God's purpose. It's for his glory. It's for the furtherance of his kingdom. Then it almost makes it like a fun game to figure out what your skillsets are and how you can be a part of the puzzle and the pie, realizing, wait, it's not about me. I don't have to get all the credit.

[Aaron] Yes, yes.

[Elisha] In fact, I shouldn't get all the credit. Like, how can I fit into the strategy that God has? And I think obviously, Katie and I are in the journey of figuring that out, and something that we both talk a lot about is being aware of the desires that are on our heart, and the Lord I think oftentimes places those on your heart, and then also being open to counsel. And you can speak to this, Katie, but I think that we've gone back and forth of caring too much about what people think of us, whether that's close friends and relatives, or even people that we don't know personally, but they have their opinion online of us and we'll let that influence the action we're taking. But then you can swing the pendulum and say, well, forget what people think. I'm just gonna do what I wanna do. And there's obviously, the Bible talks about there being safety in the counsel of many. And so I think finding this place where you say, man, the Lord's put something on my heart. I wanna have a community of counsel that I can go to and be humble before, knowing that they can totally see blind spots in my life, but then also realizing I don't wanna make decisions based off of the fear of man or what somebody might say to me.

[Aaron] Right.

[Jennifer] So good, and I find so much encouragement in several things that you guys have already shared throughout this episode, things like have fun along the way, enjoy the journey, and I love that, and I just wanted to take note for everyone listening, and for everyone who's gonna read the book Marriage after God, because sometimes, we just tell it like it is and encourage them to do. But I want them to hear this. It is a journey to be enjoyed, and it is something to have fun with yourselves when you're figuring it out. And so I just wanted to make a note, I love that you said that.

[Aaron] And the highlight in your story, just all the unique variables, we call it inventory, that God has equipped you guys with to do the unique thing that he's having you do, whatever that looks like. It could be a business. It could be just you working nine-to-five jobs, you just being a mom, but how you guys work together with your gifts and talents, we don't know, but you guys are trying things and chasing after what God wants for you and saying, okay, Lord, okay, that's not it? Okay, cool, and we'll take the experience from that. We're gonna use it for the thing that you do want us to do, and that it's this organic thing. 'Cause God knows the complete picture.

[Elisha] That's right.

[Katie] He does, yes.

[Aaron] It says many plans are in the man's heart, but it's the Lord that directs the steps. So we have these plans, we have these ideas, and we say, if the Lord wills it, and then we take a step, and you say, okay, that's the right step. Oh, no, that's the wrong step. Let's go to this step, let's do this way, and we let him direct us. And what's awesome is along the way, whether you have reached that goal, whatever that thing is, like you said, we always have this picture of what it might be, and we actually don't even know what it might be. We just think, it's usually probably compared to someone else's thing.

[Katie] Probably.

[Elisha] That's usually what it is.

[Aaron] But like even right now, just by you saying yes to him in all of these decisions, you're saying yes to him, and you begin to see him not only change you guys, make you guys more in love, stronger in your marriage, better parents, better brothers and sisters in Christ, but then also, you get used to grow the kingdom, just along the way. Whether you ever achieve that position or ministry or goal or whatever it looks like, it's happening along the way because you're saying yes to God, and I think that's amazing.

[Elisha] Yep.

[Aaron] So, do you feel like God is currently inviting you two to do anything specific, like, as you guys have been navigating with all these gifts and talents and resources?

[Katie] Yeah, well, I think that it's, like we mentioned, it has been a journey. I think it's so cool to see how the Lord has had us work together in little ways right off the bat, because there is no way we'd be able to even do the projects we're working on now if we hadn't taken those little steps, and I think of with Voetberg Music Academy, where I started recording a live show and we started getting into video, but I was so insecure talking in front of a camera in front of Elisha. I wasn't insecure about the camera.

[Aaron] Elisha, turn around please.

[Katie] Yes!

[Elisha] Exactly, she would tell me to leave.

[Katie] He'd have to leave. I had a crush on Elisha since I was eight years old, and I tried my entire life to impress him.

[Aaron] Oh, that's awesome. And now he's standing there in front of you.

[Katie] So then after we got married, I was like, I can't do this, and he was so good at it, and he was so good at communicating that, I don't know, there was just no way we were going to ever be able to talk to a camera together. And I think it was so cool, because I started my own YouTube now that I'm a mother before we did anything online, and it was cool how that just built my confidence, and that was a little step. It was just a hobby and a fun thing, but I do think the Lord was using it to build my confidence for us to be able to start doing video together and starting the vlog, and then starting, and I think it also gave you confidence too.

[Elisha] Yes.

[Katie] In the flip side, to see me just putting my life out there and people being encouraged by it, and that gave you the urge I think to have us jump into that together.

[Elisha] Absolutely.

[Katie] Which again led to the podcast, and I do think even though we are young and we are really newly married and a new family, we do have a desire to encourage family and encourage biblical rules and encourage seeking out what God's word says about family in a culture that is so starkly opposed to just the biblical worldview. And so, I think that's our goal, and that might look different throughout the years. The mediums we use to communicate might look different, but I think for both of us, that's what God has placed on our heart, to just encourage young families in our stage of life and newly married couples.

[Aaron] Yeah. So I just wanna encourage you guys, 'cause I know you both, we go to church together, we know most of your families. Whether you have direct experience with being parents of large families and have been doing for ages, or you have a two-year-old, right?

[Elisha] Yeah, that's right.

[Aaron] You have more experience in this than many people, because I grew up in a family of two. You grew up in a larger family, but not the way you guys did.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] And whether or not you are directly experiencing it, which you are, just with a much smaller size right now, you were drawing from that inventory of how you were raised and the experience that no one has had, rarely, 10 children, 11 children, parents that stayed together that not just stayed together but love each other, 'cause that's a big thing.

[Jennifer] Yeah, there's parents that stick it out.

[Aaron] Lots of people, they stayed together, but it wasn't very joyful, right?

[Elisha] Right, right.

[Aaron] And so that's what's awesome, is whether or not you feel completely qualified, you're more qualified than me to talk about it, just by the experience you had, now, as long as we stay humble and we submit to the Lord and say we're gonna do it your way, 'cause it's his story. So I just wanted to encourage you guys that. I think that's awesome you're starting. I think we need more people, more believers. That's the whole purpose of this book, is to say yes to God and say, God, here's what you've given me. How do you wanna use it?

[Elisha] Yes, amen.

[Jennifer] Okay, guys, this is the last question, and it's in your own words, what is a marriage after God?

[Elisha] In our own words, what is a marriage after God?

[Katie] Okay, you go first.

[Elisha] This isn't fair, 'cause we haven't read the book yet, guys.

[Aaron] This is exactly why we're asking.

[Elisha] I see. You know, God invented marriage, so I really do think that he gets to choose what the purpose of marriage is, what marriage is, what the end goal is, and something that Katie and I have really been contemplating over the last few months is that when you are joined in holy matrimony, you don't then start to try to become one; he makes you one. And so therefore, you start to act like one. And I think that so often, and this carries over into our faith. We think that when you are made new in Christ, from the day you're saved, you're a son of God.

[Aaron] Oh, I love that, yeah.

[Elisha] You are free from sin. You're able to live as a son of God. That doesn't mean that you don't need to learn some things, but you're learning to act how he's made you to be. I think it's the same thing with marriage. Oftentimes, we think, man, we need to become one, when in reality, you are one. He says, when two are joined together, they should no longer be called two, but they should be called one. And I think that once we've started to realize that more and more, we've realized that when I make decisions that aren't to the unity of our marriage, it hurts Katie, and similarly, if it's a negative decision, and if Katie makes a negative decision, it hurts me, whether you want it to or not. And I think that once we've started to have our minds transformed, you know, our minds are being transformed because we're renewing them and starting to believe what God says about who we are as Christians and then who we are as a married couple, we start to walk that out, we start to be one. And so once again, that's just one area that God has spoken to about marriage, saying hey, you are one. There's no more two, there's no more Elisha and Katie. You are one. I don't care how you feel. I don't care how she thinks or you think, you are one. So you better start learning how to act like it. Otherwise, it's gonna be a pretty miserable journey.

[Aaron] Ooh, I love that. That's awesome, yeah. So a marriage after God is one that recognizes they are one.

[Elisha] That's right.

[Aaron] Like, not becoming one, they are one. And so, I love that, because you're right. We're not becoming something. We are it the moment we said yes.

[Jennifer] Let's live it out.

[Aaron] Yeah, and so, either we're living it out or we're fighting against it.

[Elisha] Yes.

[Aaron] So that's awesome, amen. So, where can people find you at? What are some websites?

[Jennifer] 'Cause we know people got encouraged today. They got inspired. They wanna know more about you.

[Elisha] Sure, yeah, well, you already mentioned our podcast. It's Now That We're A Family, and then we've got our YouTube channel, which is also called nowthatwereafamily.

[Katie] Yep.

[Elisha] And Katie's on Instagram at @nowthatimamother.

[Jennifer] And she's super active there. She does live videos and interviews people.

[Aaron] And her photos are awesome.

[Katie] Yes, I was able to interview Jenn. That was awesome.

[Elisha] Yeah, that's right, exactly.

[Katie] Yeah, and are you?

[Elisha] I'm on Instagram.

[Aaron] Yeah, is yours @nowthatimafather?

[Elisha] @nowthatimafather.

[Katie] @nowthatimafather, yeah.

[Elisha] That's right. Yeah, so that's really where you can find us, and then our website's

[Aaron] So we just wanna encourage our listeners to go follow them and check them out. They have large families, large, awesome, godly families.

[Jennifer] And they're growing theirs.

[Aaron] And they're throwing theirs, and God's using them.

[Elisha] Right on.

[Jennifer] Okay, well, at the end of every episode, we just encourage everyone to join us in prayer. So Aaron, would you like to close us out in prayer?

[Aaron] Dear Lord, we thank you for the way you created us, and we thank you for your rich provision. Thank you for equipping us for the work you have for us to do. May our eyes be opened so we can see all the wonderful ways you have equipped us. Use us to encourage our spouse in the ways you have equipped them as well. We ask that you use every one of our marriages to bring you glory and to spread your gospel. We pray against fear and against the temptation to bury the gifts you have given to us. We ask that you remove our insecurities far from our hearts and help us to trust in you. We pray that we would walk in confidence as we chase boldly after you and as we pursue doing the very things you created us and created our marriages to do. In Jesus's name, amen.

[Jennifer] Amen.

[Elisha and Katie] Amen.

[Aaron] So thanks for joining us today, Katie and Elisha Voetberg. We love you guys, and we thank you for your story and your testimony.

[Elisha] Mm, thank you guys, seriously. Thank you for your ministry.

[Katie] Yes.

[Elisha] And, I mean, I don't know if you guys are gonna keep this on, but.

[Aaron] Oh, yeah.

[Elisha] But just as an example you guys have shown to us I've really been thinking about this the last couple of weeks, is your guys' consistency in your faith and in your marriage and in your child training. That's a huge blessing to me as a new father.

[Aaron] Thank you.

[Elisha] Then also just in being in consistent community, being in consistent fellowship with our local body here. I just know that you'll be there. I know that you're a phone all or a text away and that you will be there on Sunday, and I see you guys being so faithful in your Bible times as a family, and I just never want you guys to question not only the work that's taking place in your own family, but the encouragement that is to me as a believer and I'm sure just to the global body that watches that.

[Katie] Yes, you've been such a blessing to our family.

[Jennifer] Thank you for sharing that, that's awesome.

[Aaron] Thank you, well, yeah, I appreciate that.

[Elisha] Actually, I'm gonna say one more thing. Just 'cause I don't know how many people you're gonna have on your podcast that go to your local church, but being the father of a two-year-old boy, I've really started to think more and more about child training within the church service content. And we've been going to church for almost two and a half years now with you guys and seen how you guys have been able to really train your children to sit in church is so inspiring.

[Katie] Oh my goodness, yeah.

[Elisha] You guys, I know that most of you listeners probably are never gonna have an opportunity to sit in church with Aaron and Jen, but their kids are so well behaved. They sit on their laps, and the only reason that's so remarkable to me now is because I've got a two-year-old, and it feels like I'm in a jiu jitsu match throughout the entire church service with him.

[Katie] Yeah, we're trying to take notes from Aaron and Jen.

[Elisha] Yeah.

[Aaron] Well, thank you.

[Elisha] Yeah, no, it's true.

[Aaron] Yeah, thank you, I appreciate that.

[Jennifer] It is about consistency, I would say, just to encourage others out there. The children just, they're awesome and they're a blessing to us.

[Aaron] And it takes lots of hard work, and lots of prayer, and lots of screaming in pillows.

[Katie] There you go.

[Aaron] So, hey, thank you, that was really encouraging. We love you guys, and all you listening, we love you, and we thank you for joining us, and we pray that you will continue on in this journey with us as we have a few more episodes in this series. We'll see you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Apr 24, 2019
MAG 10: What's In Your Marriage Tool Belt? - Interview w/ Channing & Jessica Gillespie

Order Your Copy Of Marriage After God Today!

Quote From Marriage After God Book

“You and your marriage are no accident! He created both you and your spouse intentionally, with a specific purpose in mind!”


*Dear Lord,

Thank you for the gift of marriage. Thank you for pouring your thoughtfulness into the way you designed marriage. Thank you for giving us a toolbelt that is unique, so that we can pursue and do all of the things you have for us to do. Please help us to understand everything that is in our toolbelt and show us how we can use it for your glory. We pray we would keep nothing back from you. We pray we would walk humbly with you and with each other. Use us to encourage one another in marriage and affirm the gifts we see in each other. We pray that we would see all of the little and big ways you are inviting us to join you to spread your gospel of love, salvation, and amazing grace. May the testimony of Jesus be the motivation in our hearts to do what we do, all for your glory!

In Jesus’ name, amen!*


[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

[Aaron] And today we're on part 10 of the Marriage After God series, and we're gonna be talking with Channing and Jessica Gillespie about the tool belt God has given us.

[Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.

[Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife.

[Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution.

[Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade.

[Aaron] And so far, we have four young children.

[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media.

[Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day.

[Jennifer] We believe the Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life.

[Aaron] Love.

[Jennifer] And power.

[Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God.

[Jennifer] Together.

[Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.

[Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. Thank you guys so much for joining us today. We just wanted to take a moment to ask everyone listening to leave a review. This is just a great way to get the message of this podcast out into the world. So, if you could support us in that way, that would be so awesome. It's so easy. All you have to do is scroll down to the bottom and leave a star rating review or comment review. Both really encourage Aaron and I, so thank you to everyone who's already done that.

[Aaron] Also, we'd like to invite everyone to pick up a copy of the Marriage After God book. It's our new book Jennifer and I wrote together, and it's the reason we're doing this series. It's the reason this podcast exists, so we'd love for you to get a copy of our new book, Marriage After God. Go to and grab a copy. Thank you everyone for listening. Today we have some Instagram friends of ours, Channing and Jessica Gillespie. Hey, welcome to the show, guys.

[Channing] Hey, Aaron, Jen. How you guys doing?

[Aaron] We're doing well.

[Jennifer] So good. Thank you for being here with us today. We're so excited to have you guys, and we just want you to take a moment and let the listeners know who you are. So maybe how long you guys have been married, how many children you have, and what you do for work.

[Channing] Awesome, yeah. Well, my name is Channing Gillespie. This is my wife Jessica.

[Jessica] Hi.

[Channing] We've been married two years, got married in 2016, October, and we're loving marriage.

[Aaron] That's good, right?

[Channing] We are high school sweethearts.

[Jennifer] Aw.

[Channing] So we've been together a long time. We just had four first baby.

[Jennifer] Woohoo!

[Jessica] She's so cute, she's the best.

[Aaron] What's her name?

[Channing] Her name is Hadley Kate. We had her in August of this year, so she is five months, and she is the only grandbaby right now and the only niece, and so she is spoiled rotten. But we've enjoyed these past five months as mom and dad. It's a new.

[Jessica] It's interesting.

[Channing] It's interesting, that's a good word.

[Aaron] Yeah, learning to be married and learning to be parents at the same time.

[Jessica] Yeah, for real.

[Channing] Yes. But yeah, we love it. I am actually on staff at the Church at Grace Park in White House, Tennessee. It's a little bit north of Nashville. I serve as the college pastor there. That's relatively new. We started that ministry back in June of last year, and been going strong with that, and I serve on the worship team at the church also, and I'm a songwriter and am seeking to write songs that point to hope amidst sorrow. That's really where I feel like the Lord's leading me to write songs right now. And so, just kind of seeking after the Lord and looking for new opportunities to do those things, both in ministry and in songwriting ministry and in worship. So that's a little bit about me. Jessica, you wanna go?

[Jessica] Yeah, I am a wife and a mom. I got to come home full-time and be with Haddie Kate when she was born in August.

[Aaron] Awesome.

[Jessica] So I'm really blessed to be able to do that and excited that the Lord provided that, a way for that to happen for me. But I also, I like to create and I love to write. So I started a blog that's called The Good Cottage Wife in 2016, the year we got married. Started that, and so I have that going, and also, I am a consultant with Rodan + Fields. So I help people change their skin and change their lives, and I love it. I wear a few different hats throughout the week, but I love each one, and I love getting to use those in creative ways.

[Aaron] Awesome.

[Jennifer] That's beautiful.

[Aaron] Yeah, I love the diversity in you guys' career paths and also how God's using you. And that's what we wanna talk about today, getting into this idea, but before we get to our main questions, we always start off question an icebreaker question. Are you guys ready for that?

[Channing and Jessica] Yes.

[Aaron] Okay, all right, here it goes, all right? This is gonna let people know a lot about you guys. What is the most awkward thing you've experienced as parents so far?

[Channing] I don't know. We were talking about that this morning a little bit too, of what's some crazy things. I don't know if there's been anything awkward per se yet, but I think you get initiated into parenthood when you get peed on a couple times, so.

[Aaron] There you go, yeah.

[Channing] I've had that happen too many times.

[Aaron] Yeah, I think it's a requirement.

[Jessica] I did have, we were at church one Sunday and I was holding her. She wasn't very old, not that she's very old now, but I was holding her, and my hand started getting wet, and I'm like, aw, man, she's peeing on me, and I go to lift her up, and she had pooped on me.

[Aaron] Oh, no, right in the middle of church.

[Jessica] And it was on my shirt a little bit. I'm trying to wash it off and stuff, and I had brought a change of clothes, but it was in the car instead of her diaper bag.

[Aaron] Oh, no.

[Jessica] And so, everybody was like, yeah, that'll be the last time you do that.

[Aaron] Yeah, poop's infinitely worse than pee.

[Jennifer] I was thinking of this question for you guys, and I was thinking about our own experiences, 'cause we have a couple kids.

[Aaron] We have four.

[Jennifer] Yeah, we have four.

[Aaron] We have two couple kids.

[Jennifer] But the first thing that comes to my mind was my kind of initiation to motherhood, and that was Elliott was born in November, and I remember it was Christmas Day, and we had stopped at a gas station, and I took him out to nurse him, and somehow, he managed to move beyond all of his clothes and only poop all over me. And I'm like, oh, no, Aaron, we have to stop at Target or something, 'cause we're on our way to my grandparents house.

[Aaron] Oh, we had no clothes.

[Jennifer] Nobody said you're supposed to have an extra change of clothes. And so everything was closed. I mean, everything was closed, 'cause it's Christmas Day. I ended up having to stop at a relative's house, a cousin that I had that was my same size and I asked her if I could borrow a pair of pants.

[Aaron] Oh, I remember this.

[Jennifer] Luckily it worked just fine.

[Aaron] So pro parent tip, bring a change of clothes for yourselves.

[Jennifer] For everyone.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] If someone is in the car with you, if you're traveling, just bring an extra change for everyone.

[Channing] Love it.

[Aaron] Yeah, a baby go bag, extra pants, shirts, underwear, socks.

[Jennifer] Okay, all right, we're gonna move on.

[Aaron] All right.

[Jennifer] Okay, so we're gonna jump in with a quote. Okay, we're gonna jump in with a quote from Marriage After God, from chapter 10, and it says, "You and your marriage are no accident. "He created both you and your spouse intentionally "with a specific purpose in mind," which, I love this quote, "and it's for every marriage and for everyone."

[Aaron] Yeah, the reason we wrote this book is because God's got a mission for all of his people, that we're all a part of his body, that his body's doing something in this world. So our encouragement is just to marriages to recognize that their marriage wasn't an accident, that God's got a plan for it, and he desires us to say yes to him and to offer up our tools and gifts and talents. And so today, we're gonna talk about tools and what that looks like in your life, but also, that everyone listening can ask themselves the same questions, that they can use this conversation we're having today with you guys as a launching pad or as a conversation starter for themselves to be like, oh, what has God given us, and how can we use what God's given us to serve him, to say yes to him? So I hope you're excited about that.

[Jessica] Yes.

[Aaron] Cool, so the first question we got for you guys is do you believe God brought you two together with a specific purpose in mind?

[Channing] Yeah, absolutely. For me specifically, I know even in my pursuit of Jessica, if that doesn't sound creepy. That's not supposed to sound that way. But in seeking the Lord with her, I had always prayed for one girl. Jessica's the only girl that I ever dated, and knowing that just in the back of my mind, I can hear my great-grandmother always saying to me, don't you ever bring a girl into my house that you don't intend on marrying.

[Aaron] That's awesome.

[Channing] And I really was drawn to that. I really asked the Lord, would you just send me one? And he sent me the best one.

[Aaron] Found a good man, Jessica.

[Channing] And with that, you know, even when we started dating in high school, I didn't really see the extent of the things that the Lord was gonna do with us. I'm reminded of Psalm 139, that he knew us individually before we were ever thought of, and that while he was knitting us together in the womb, that he had a plan and a purpose, individually, but also together. And we're just seeing even the beginning steps of that in the first two years of marriage. But we know that his plans and his purposes, though, we don't always see them in full, yet we know that they're good and that they're for our good. And so, just being able to walk in the truth that the Lord did bring me a good thing in my wife and knowing that together, whatever that is, whether that's just being a mom and dad to Hadley or if that's college pastors, in this season, we know that he has a purpose for us.

[Aaron] Love that.

[Channing] You have anything that you can think of?

[Jessica] Yeah, I think it's cool that a lot of times, you don't see things for yourself or you don't see things in yourself, and then all of the sudden, God has you in the middle of something, and you're like, never ever did I ever think that this is what it would look like, but it's much better than what you could have conjured up on your own.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jessica] Just an example of that is when we were dating, which, he'll probably go into this deeper a little later, but when we were dating, and we had been dating a while, but he came to me and he was like, I really feel like I'm called to the ministry vocationally, at least right now. I don't know what that looks like. But he said I don't know, I just wanna let you know. I don't know if that changes anything for you.

[Aaron] Warning.

[Jessica] And not that it was a bad thing or anything, but I was not expecting that. Never did I think, oh, yes, I'm gonna be a minister's wife, and my husband's gonna be on church staff and all that. I just had never thought that. And so when he said that, I was like, oh, my. I'm gonna have to think about this, not that I wouldn't want him to pursue what God wanted for him. But quickly God shut my mouth and cut off my mind of thoughts and fears that came up, just worries of what financially and all the things like that. But he said, don't stifle what I'm trying to do and what I can do through him and through you with him even though it's not something that you ever thought would be a part of your testimony and part of your life. So I think it's cool that, and I know that he did bring us together for such a time as this, for college ministry, for his music, for me to get to be a stay-at-home mom. All of that is part of his plan, and even though it wasn't something and we didn't get to this point that we're at right now the way that I in my feeble mind thought we would, it's been much more filled with joy and fulfilling than I ever thought it could be, and it's because it was God's plan and not ours.

[Jennifer] Man, I love the hopefulness that you guys are both sharing. Both of your perspectives are so full of hope, and I just hope that the people listening are encouraged by this, because what I'm hearing is it doesn't matter how long you've been married. It doesn't matter whether you've envisioned your life the way that it is or the way that it will be. We can all have hope in that and trust in what God is doing in our marriages, and I love that.

[Aaron] And I also love that you essentially said, you're like, I had a different idea or I didn't know what my idea would be, but I yielded to God's idea instead, and I think that's the key in this pursuit of okay, Lord, what do you want for our marriage, what do you have for it, what have you given these things to us for, is a yielding, is saying yes. Okay, Lord, yes. It doesn't look like how I think, it's not going how I would have manufactured this to go, but we want what you want, and that's what I hear from you guys, and that's awesome.

[Jennifer] So in Marriage After God, we talk about this idea of the marriage tool belt, and without giving away too much, because we want everyone to go read it, what do you guys think a marriage tool belt is, and what do you think of when you hear that term and what do you think is in your tool belt? And you guys haven't read the book yet, so this'll be interesting.

[Channing] Not yet, not yet.

[Jessica] As far as what I think is in our tool belt, definitely some things that are in there are advice that we can draw on from people that have been married much longer than us. I know that I received a ton of advice just from my mom, my grandmother, from women at church who have been married when we were engaged, and it's kind of funny, because sometimes, when you receive advice, it's like, yeah, okay. Well, that might not really apply to us, or I don't see that happening with us. And then you're quickly silenced when you enter that situation. It's kind of like, you don't know what you're getting into until you're in it, not that it's a bad thing or anything. It's just one of those things that, when you get there, you do have to draw on that advice. You're like, oh, they were right. Yeah, that would really help in this situation. So I would say advice, and then also, one thing that I've had to really try to hone in on and remember to do is to learn from our own experiences. Don't make the same mistake twice if you can go back and say, okay, this happened before. What did I do? Okay, that was probably not the right thing to say. That was the wrong moment. How can I make this not happen again, or how can we work through this better, if that makes sense.

[Aaron] Yeah, no, I love that.

[Jessica] And I would say advice, drawing from your own experiences and learning from them, and then humility and communication, and I know people say communication, yeah, I know that. But willingness to communicate, willingness to converse when there is an issue and just personally, I've had to work on that I know, because I'm the one that, when there's an issue or someone gets upset about something, I don't wanna talk about it right then. Like, leave me alone. Let me process this in my own mind. I don't wanna talk. And that's not the best approach. And so, I have had to learn, like, put down your pride, say you're sorry, and be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry. So that, as far as what's in my tool belt, those are some very specific things.

[Channing] Yeah, and I would add too of just growing up, thinking about the times that I saw my dad put his tool belt on, which, I don't own a tool belt. I need to probably get one.

[Aaron] You're a dad now and a husband. You're supposed to have a tool belt.

[Channing] I am. I have tools; I don't have a belt for them.

[Aaron] Yeah, I don't have one either, yeah.

[Channing] But I thought back to the times that I saw my dad put his tool belt on. It was when he was building something or he was repairing something. And I see that so much in marriage also of what I think the tool belt can be is whether it's building something together in your marriage, whether that's a ministry or just building a family, or there are gonna be times that you have to put the tool belt on because you're gonna have to repair some things in your marriage, and you're gonna have to address things. I think about it much like a house. If you don't attend to certain things in the house, after a while, those things are gonna need attention. And so, there might be times in marriage that Jess and I would have to address an area that would be an issue, or that has caused there to be some problem, but with that tool belt, I agree with Jess on a lot of that being from advice, and we've both been blessed to have parents that have stuck together through thick and thin and have really given us a good model of what marriage should look like and to persevere and endure. There's a lot of endurance in marriage. But with that in our tool belt too, to look at past experience, maybe even things that we've gleaned from our parents' marriages, things that we've learned from them over the years that help shape us in how we relate to one another, how we raise Hadley. I think there's a lot of things that can go into that belt. But those main things, I'm just really reminded of the building and the repairing idea.

[Aaron] Yeah, it's almost like you guys have read that book already, and you haven't. The rebuilding and the repairing, those analogies are some of the reasons we bring up this idea of a tool belt, is because the tools are meant for something. They're meant for building and repairing. And the tools that God has given us, and you guys actually mentioned some of them. You mentioned relationships; you said advice. Relationships are part of that tool belt. You talked about your past and your experiences and all of these things that God has given us, and sometimes, we don't recognize them as tools to be used or things that God's given us as gifts in our life, the things that have happened to us in the past, education that we've received and our relationships. These are all things that God's given us that he wants us to use and steward and call on and employ in our life for not only our family's sake, but also for the family of God. So I love that you use those analogies. We were just looking at each other shaking our heads like yeah, this is good.

[Jessica] That's awesome.

[Aaron] Yeah, and that's our encouragement to those listening, is then recognizing that they may not be able to relate to everything in your story, but what is relatable is that everyone has a tool belt. All the things that you guys just mentioned, the people listening may not have a family like yours that raised you with certain things, but they do have a family, and they were raised a certain way. And whether positive or negative, those are still tools that can be drawn upon, and that leads us into this next question. One of the tools in the tool belt that we discuss in our book is our testimony. And so, that's why I go to this idea of, whether it's negative or positive, all of that plays into the testimony that God's given us of what Jesus has done in our life. And so I wanna ask you guys, you know, what is your testimony? What has Jesus done in your life? How has God drawn you to himself? Let's just talk about that tool for a moment.

[Channing] Yeah well, I'll start. I grew up, my dad has been a pastor for pretty much my entire life, so I grew up in a ministry-style home. And so, I have the typical church Sunday school answer in the sense that we were always in church, and mom and dad always had us. When the doors were open, we were there. But for me, I got saved at an early age. My dad actually led me to Christ, just began asking questions when I was young. From that point, I had a good understanding of Jesus died for me and he wants me to come live with him in heaven. That was the extent of my faith as a child. But as I grew up, you begin to understand the depth of the gospel in that as you get older, you start to recognize you've really screwed some things up, and your sin just gets wider and wider, and the gap gets wider and wider. But then you begin to really appreciate and come to know the depth of the love that God has for his people and that he sent Jesus. And so, for me, it really became real to me when I got into high school and where I really began to get serious about my faith that it was more of a relationship when I got into high school with him, and for me, part of my testimony involves a call to the ministry and a running away from that call for a long time. Didn't wanna do ministry, didn't want that life. I grew up in it. Didn't want to be a pastor, but thought I had my own idea of what my life was gonna look, and pursued things that I thought were gonna bring me joy and happiness, and I can remember that Jessica shared a little bit about that conversation with me and her, but before that, I can remember my mom just point blank looking at me and saying, when are you gonna stop running? And a couple days after that, I was at a mens conference at a church in our community, and I can remember just sitting among thousands of other men, and it was like the Lord, it was just me and him in that room. And he said, I want you to stop running. I wanna use you in the ministry. And I accepted that call that night, not begrudgingly, but it was finally a moment in my heart and my life that I saw the picture of what the Lord wanted for my life. Now, he didn't say here's how this is gonna look. It was just a call to his ministry.

[Aaron] Yeah, he was looking for a yes.

[Channing] So yeah, it was just, okay. And so for me, that's been a big, big part of even my relationship with the Lord in the sense of learning to trust him and learning to depend on him and to submit to him and surrender to him. And so that call came when I was in my early years of college, and as soon as I made that call, all the anxieties of what I was gonna do with my life just started to fade away because I knew that he had already orchestrated and ordained me for that moment and that call. So for me, it's still growing. I count it as a relationship. I'm seeking to know him through his word and through his church and through just study of him. So I've seen my relationship with Jesus grow, even in the past two years of marriage, too, with the rigors and the good times and the bad times through marriage too, of learning how to trust him through it all. So that's what I would say, what about you?

[Jessica] Yeah, so I was saved at six years old at a VBS, and just something that everyone knew about me. I was very shy. I'm not an extrovert at all. I really have to make myself come out of my comfort zone, which I know we all have to, but there's probably not an ounce of extrovert in me, naturally. But so I was saved there, and actually, part of it was I had to, I didn't wanna go down by myself. There were plenty of kids going down, 'cause they asked if anybody wanted to come down and receive Jesus into their heart, and I wanted to, but I was too scared to go down by myself. And so I asked somebody to walk down with me. And that, I didn't realize it until later how symbolic that was gonna be in my testimony of who I was and who God created me to be and who he made me to be after I received him. But as far as an intimate relationship with him, I really didn't know what that looked like or what that meant. In sixth or seventh grade, I was at a retreat with our school, and I don't remember who spoke. I don't remember what they said. But I vividly remember being at the altar and thinking, okay, I don't want a hello God, goodbye God relationship with him. I want a deep relationship with him. I want my life to matter. And so that was the moment where I really became intentional about growing that relationship with him and nurturing it, but a big part of my testimony, like I said, was I was shy. I was not willing really to get out of my comfort zone, and then the Lord said to me, it's not about what you have to say or what you can do, but it's about what I'm gonna say through you and what I'm gonna do through you. And he kind of just said, and there's nothing else that I need to say to you. Like what you guys said, you just need to say yes. Just say yes to me, and just do what I ask you to do. It's scary, and sometimes, it's inconvenient. Actually, probably most of the time it's gonna be inconvenient, but you're not who you once were, so you don't need to look like that anymore, and you don't need to be scared. And like a lot of girls do, as I got older, I started struggling with self-esteem issues. I really started to try to hide the fact that I struggled with that, and in a sense, I didn't have an eating disorder, but I started to really abuse exercise in my life and then just didn't eat enough to compensate for that. So I guess you could say I had an eating disorder, but that really became a god in my life. I was riding my bike around the house one day trying to get all that exercise in and make myself feel worthy and feel beautiful, and I remember, it was almost like the Lord stopped me, like I couldn't pedal anymore. And he said, oh, girl, just give it up. Like, you don't need this. All you need is me. I'm more than enough for you. My grace is sufficient for you, and stop going after all these things that you think are gonna make you comfortable, all these things that you think are gonna make you feel satisfied, because they're not going to. So that's really what he's done in my life and a big part of my testimony is when we're saved, we're not who we once were, but I, at least looking back at myself, I know that I am nothing as far as what my life looked like, the things I said, the things I did and wouldn't do because I was too scared. I don't look the same, and I thank God for that.

[Aaron] Amen, wow.

[Jennifer] Yeah, that's so cool, guys. We really appreciate hearing your testimony of what he's done in your lives, and I mean, I can pull out things just from hearing you talk of how God's already using those testimonies in what you're doing today. But I wanna hear from you. So how would you say that God's using these testimonies for what he has you doing today?

[Channing] Well, for me, I know for this season, we've referenced it a couple times, of just working in college ministry. The Lord laid a deep desire in our hearts for 18to 25-year olds, because it's a very, very pivotal point in the lives of students, and I've been able to have some really good conversations with students who have come to crossroads in their lives of, do I pursue this, or do I pursue this? Do I listen to what friends say, or do I listen to what the Lord says? Do I listen to the desires that my mom and dad have for my life, or do I listen to the desire that I know God has for my life? For me, I can remember in that same age gap standing at that crossroad and multiple times coming to crossroads and running from what the Lord had desired and desired for my life. I wish I could go back and change some of those things. It would have saved a lot of heartbreak and a lot of striving in my life, but I know that it was all working for my good. So for me, to be able to share out of that on the ministry side with students to say, hey, you don't have to feel alone when you come to these decisions in your life that you just don't know what you're doing. I've seen the Lord be able to really cultivate some deeper relationships, some deeper trust in some of those relationships with some of the students that we work with. But then there's always still, I mean, Jesus has absolutely changed my life. So regardless of any of that, I desire for my life to be poured out for the gospel. And so, whatever that looks like, whether that's a conversation about where do I go to college next year or I'm really struggling through the pit of despair, Jesus is the answer. He's enough. And so, for me, that's always the bedrock of my testimony, is that Jesus is the answer. And so, where we may not always see him working right off the bat, we know that he is and that the story's not finished. And so, for me, I've seen the Lord open some really wide open doors for me to talk with college students, and even some in our church.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Channing] That are not students, but the Lord just has opened doors for us to share. What about you?

[Jennifer] Well, real quick, I just wanna say, I think what's so powerful of what I heard in your testimony is that when you said yes to God, all those anxieties that you had about what you were supposed to be doing went away. And so now you get to share that testimony, that part of your story, with all of these college-aged kids who are asking these really big questions, and that stands out to me as such a powerful way to communicate that when you say yes to God, he's the one that takes care of the details, and we don't have to worry about 'em.

[Aaron] Yeah, and it doesn't mean things are gonna be easy. Like you said, you didn't get all of the answers right away, but he totally gave you peace, and you knew that you could trust him. So that's awesome, seeing that. Right there, you have a direct connection that you get to draw from that tool that God's given you, that testimony, that experience that you had with the Father to you pass onto these college students. And so, and I know you were about to ask Jessica, but Jessica, I have each question for you. This part of your testimony with self-image and just chasing after something to fulfill you and God getting ahold of your heart and saying, you don't need that. Has he given you opportunities to share with women who are struggling with the same things?

[Jessica] Yes, and that's what I was gonna talk about, is you know, it's not about us, and that's what I usually tell people who start confiding in me about issues in their life or struggles with their image, who they are, and being scared to come out and be who God's made them to be, is none of this is about us. And if it is about you, and that's all you can focus on is what you have to offer, well, we don't have anything to offer.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jessica] There's no good thing apart from Christ. And I do love, and I am so thankful, that he walked me through that and he helped me through it so that I can share with others, because it's really cool when you see God take someone who has no self-image in a positive way, they don't look at their self at all through the lens of Christ, which is really easy to fall into, but it's so cool to see someone like that get up on a stage and sing or get up and even just share their testimony, or do the thing that they're so scared to do, but they can do it with Christ and with God's help. So that has been so cool, and I do think a lot about the fact that if I wouldn't have said yes, and I don't say that to boast about myself, because on my own, I would not have said yes. I would still be sitting in the corner of my bedroom. I probably wouldn't be married to Channing. If I wouldn't have said yes to anything that I'm scared to say yes to, I wouldn't have been able to see other people do the same thing.

[Aaron] Yeah, that's just a beautiful example of God using the broken pieces of this world, us. We're in this flesh that is not yet redeemed, and he redeems our spirit fully and then walks us through the sanctification process and loves us as we're here in this world and then uses us when we say yes to him. I have a question though, one more for you, Jessica. Did you have opportunities to talk to women and share with women who were going through self-image things before God redeemed you from that, or did it start happening afterward?

[Jessica] It started happening afterward. I don't doubt that he probably gave me opportunities, even as a middle schooler, just to pour into people that are younger than me, because I really have always had a passion for that, especially after saying yes, I will say anything you want me to say. I will get up and sing on that stage, or I will sing my baby to sleep at night in the room when no one else sees me, and I'll do it with a joyful heart. But before I said yes, I was focused on myself. I was focused on my fears and what I thought I could do and what I thought I knew I couldn't do. And so, I didn't really know. I might have had the opportunity before, but I didn't take it, and I didn't reap the joy that could have come from them.

[Aaron] This is so great. Don't know Jennifer if you're being.

[Jennifer] I'm to encouraged.

[Aaron] Encouraged by this, but yeah, this is exactly what our hope for this conversation was, to show the reality of, it doesn't matter who you are. When you say yes to God, when you accept and follow Jesus as Lord, and you say, okay, Lord, here I am, like you said, we have nothing apart from Christ, and then he gives us the things he wants us to use. The master gives the servants the talents, you know? And you guys have said yes in your life, and I love that.

[Jennifer] Yeah, what I think is so beautiful about you guys sharing your testimony and this story today is that, well, two things. The first thing is that how beautiful it is that all of our marriages are unique. So you guys are on our episode today and you're sharing your unique marriage story, your unique testimonies and how God is using those testimonies today to further his kingdom and build his kingdom, and I just want everyone listening to know that it is beautiful that every marriage is unique. And I know we shared about that in the last episode, but I just wanna reiterate that all of us have been given a tool belt, and it's an exciting process to be able to sift through it and see what God has given us and then encourage our spouse in using exactly what he's given us. And it sounds like that's what you guys are doing. You have these very specific testimonies, and they're powerful, and God's using them in specifically college ministry and other ways. But oh, I just love that. And then the other thing is that we know we can trust God. And so, when we're standing there wondering what it is we're supposed to be doing or asking those big questions, we know we can trust him. When we hear stories like this, it reaffirms that in our hearts. And so I just really appreciate you guys' vulnerability in just sharing this with us today.

[Aaron] So, you know, we're gonna be coming to a close soon, and we were gonna ask you a question about have you had opportunities to use your testimony, and what's awesome is you just now shared your testimony with everything listening. So yes, yes, God randomly gives you opportunities to do that, and you guys probably pursue those, and we just love that. And you already answered that question in talking about who you're sharing it with. But we wanna end off with one question we've been asking everyone on this series, and it's in your own words, what is a marriage after God?

[Channing] I immediately thought of David, of David was a man after God's own heart, and so of applying that same idea, a marriage after God is one that in all things puts God first, that desires to grow close to him, to look like him. I mean, I see marriage as a picture of Christ and his church, 'cause that's what it is. We are his bride, and the way that he has laid down his life for the church and the way that he is also coming back for, oh, yes, that's so good, I love it, he's coming back for his bride one day, that he hasn't left us in our sin and in the brokenness, but that he's coming victoriously back for us. I see a marriage after God as one that's a vertical and a horizontal component of that, where vertically, we're trying to become more like Jesus day after day and the sanctification of becoming him, but then horizontally, loving each other like the way that Christ loves his church. And so, for me, there's a little bit of that too for me. I was an athlete in high school and thinking about marriage after God makes me think of, we're running after him.

[Aaron] Yeah, I love that.

[Channing] There's this, I won't stop until I get you kind of idea.

[Jennifer] That's great imagery.

[Aaron] Yes, yeah.

[Channing] Not creepy.

[Aaron] No creepy references here, yeah.

[Channing] Right, but seriously, for Jessica and for myself, what I desire is for a world to look at our marriage and say, man, they belong to somebody, you know?

[Aaron] Yes.

[Channing] That there's something different about them, and the only answer to that is Jesus. What about you?

[Jessica] I would say a marriage after God, I saw this online the other day, so it's not original to me, but if you think about a triangle, I wish it was, but if you think about a triangle and you have the husband and wife on the bottom two corners and God's at the top corner, and it said if the husband and wife are constantly trying to get closer to God and moving up, you think about it as in moving up in the triangle, they are getting closer to each other. So the key to growing your marriage is growing are relationship with God. The closer you get to him, the closer you get to each other, and I don't remember who said it. It was Channing that said it, but I don't remember how it was a quote by: "Marriage is not to make us happy. "Marriage is to grow us closer to Christ "and to make us holy." I think a marriage after God is making every area in your life, especially your marriage, not about yourself, and make it point to Jesus.

[Aaron] Amen, agreed.

[Jennifer] So awesome, thank you guys so much. Yeah, agreed, agreed, agreed, and that quote you referenced was from Gary Thomas's Sacred Marriage book, and he's just such an excellent resource for marriages. So I appreciate you sharing that. Thank you guys so much for being on the show with us today. We really appreciate, again, your vulnerability and in sharing your testimony and encouraging people who are listening to consider the uniqueness of their marriage, the uniqueness of their testimonies, and how they can be using them today, 'cause of course the Lord's inviting us to use what he's given us for his glory. So, I just wanna thank you guys for being with us today.

[Aaron] Yeah, and you guys are a marriage after God, and we appreciate that.

[Channing] Thank y'all so much.

[Jessica] Thank you, thank you so much.

[Aaron] Yeah, you're welcome. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna close in prayer. So would you join us, and Jennifer, would you?

[Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for the gift of marriage. Thank you for pouring your thoughtfulness into the way you designed marriage. Thank you for giving us a tool belt that is unique so that we can pursue and do all of the things you have for us to do. Please help us to understand everything that is in our tool belt and show us how we can use it for your glory. We pray we would keep nothing back from you. We pray we would walk humbly with you and with each other. Use us to encourage one another in marriage and affirm the gifts we see in each other. May we also have the courage to confront and repent of any sin in our lives. We pray that we would see all of the little and big ways you are inviting us to join you to spread your gospel of love, salvation, and amazing grace. May the testimony of Jesus be the motivation in our hearts to do what we do, all for your glory. In Jesus's name, amen.

[Aaron] Amen.

[Chandler and Jessica] Amen.

[Aaron] All right, so we just wanna thank everyone for listening to the 10th episode in the series For A Marriage After God. We wanna encourage you to go get a copy of our book please. We wrote it for you. All these interviews we've compiled to encourage you and your marriage just to know that God has a plan for you and has call for your life, and we just wanna invite you to keep tuned in, because we have six more episodes in this series. So we'll see you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Apr 17, 2019
MAG 09: Your Marriage Is Unique - Interview w/ Jeremy & Audrey Roloff From BehindTheScenes Podcast

In this episode we had the privilege to interview our good friends, Jeremy and Audrey Roloff well known from the beloved TV show Little People, Big World and now from their podcast Behind The Scenes. The roloffs are very familiar with recognizing how God can use each of our unique and individual stories for His purposes and that is exactly what we explore in this episode. You don't have to be us and you don't have to be them to be used by God. God desire to use you and your unique and individual giftings, talents, stories, and resources for His glory and to further his Kingdom. We pray you are blessed by today's discussion and are inspired to say yes to God with what you have been given.

Please grab a copy of their newest book A Love Letter Life. ->


Jeremy & Audrey's Endorsement for Marriage After God Book

"In these pages, Aaron and Jen have fantastically conveyed the purpose of the mission and meaning of marriage. A powerful read that left us both inspired and awed that we get to participate in something so powerful –marriage –designed and created by a mighty God for an amazing adventure. No doubt this will become a must-read for decades to come!"


“Your marriage is not our marriage. You and your spouse are not us. You don’t have our experiences, talents, education, or upbringing. The beauty of the body of Christ is that each and every part is unique, your marriage included, and God will use your uniqueness for His purposes, if you let Him. ”


*Dear Lord,

Thank you for making us unique. Thank you for making our marriage unique. We pray we would recognize our differences and the unique qualities you have given to us and how they can be used to do the ministry you have for us to do. Lord, help us confidently embrace the uniqueness in our marriage. Help us to allow you to use everything you have given to us and how you made us to glorify your name. We pray we would not covet what other believers have or what other believers do for your kingdom, but rather we ask you to show us what you desire us to do for you and do it joyfully. May we celebrate the uniqueness in your body and encourage each other. Lord, use our unique marriage to point people to you.

In Jesus’ name, amen!*


Whenever you are at in your love story, we believe this book will help you to live your own committed, courageous, creative, and continuous love story. We hope our story, with all its imperfections, will awaken your desire to pursue a love that reflects the thoughtfulness, intention, patience, and beauty of a love letter💌⁣⁣
Whether you are dating, engaged, or married, we wrote this book for YOU! We want to empower you to live to love story you would want to have read back to you one day! A love story that is creative, intentional, faithful, and forever. 💌 #ALoveLetterLife ⁣


Whether your single, dating, engaged, or married, there are takeaways in this book for YOU🙌🏻 If you want a love story that is creative, intentional, and faithful, then grab your copy of A Love Letter Life today! We cannot wait to hear how it inspires, empower, and equips you to live a love story that you would want to have read back to you one day. To prepare for, pursue, and protect your own love letter life💌 #aloveletterlife


[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith, with Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

[Aaron] And today we're in part nine of the Marriage After God series. And we're gonna be talking with Jeremy and Audrey Roloff about how your marriage is unique. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more that just happily ever after.

[Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife.

[Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution.

[Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade.

[Aaron] And so far, we have four young children.

[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media.

[Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage. Encouraging them to walk in faith everyday.

[Jennifer] We believe Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one full of life,

[Aaron] Love,

[Jennifer] And Power,

[Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God

[Jennifer] Together.

[Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey, as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.

[Jennifer] This is Marriage After God.

Real quick, I just wanna thank you guys for being here and encourage everyone listening to leave a us a review. This is just one way you guys can support the podcast, by letting everyone else know about the podcast. When you leave that star rating review or comment review, it goes out and helps other people find the Marriage After God podcast. And it also encourages Aaron and I, so we just wanted to ask you to do that, and we also wanna thank you to everyone who has already done it.

[Aaron] And also, we wanna invite you to pick up a copy of our book, Marriage After God. It's the reason we're doing this 16 part series, and we wrote it for you and your marriage. So go to, you can download free chapters, you can get freebies, so you should just check that out. And you're gonna love it.

[Jennifer] Okay so today, we have good friends of ours, Jeremy and Audrey Roloff. Hi Guys!

[Aaron] Welcome to the show.

[Jeremy] Hey guys,

[Audrey] Hey.

[Jeremy] Stoked to be here.

[Jennifer] Awesome. Well, you know, before we jump into the content today, why don't you take a minute to introduce yourselves, how long you've been married, children, what you do for work?

[Aaron] Maybe how we know each other.

[Jeremy] Yeah. So we are Jeremy and Audrey Roloff. We currently live in Portland, Oregon. And we did At-Home church with you guys and Ben there, for two, two-and-a-half, three years. So that's how we know each other. And, yeah, currently Aud and I, we just wrote a book, A Love Letter Life, and it's our love story, and just kinda tells the journey of dating, and all the way into marriage, and how to prepare more for our marriage than our wedding day. And we do have a little marriage ministry called, Beating 50 Percent, and Always More. Which is a college girls, encouraging college women to always believe in the more that is within them through Christ.

[Audrey] Not college, just women.

[Jeremy] Yeah, just women in general sorry. So we do a bunch of things, play on the internet quite a bit. And have a good time doing it.

[Audrey] We've been married for almost five years, and we have one daughter who is seventeen months old. So,

[Aaron] And she's like the sweetest little thing too.

[Jeremy] Yeah, we're having a good time with her.

[Audrey] She's in a fun season.

[Aaron] Awesome, hey well, we're so thankful to have you guys on the show. We're excited to talk about the content today. About the uniqueness in all of our marriages. And you guys are a perfect example of that. But before we get to the main topics,

[Jeremy] Yeah.

[Aaron] We always like to ask an ice breaker question. So you guys ready?

[Jeremy] Yikes, for sure. Shoot.

[Jennifer] It's a fun one.

[Aaron] Yeah this is a fun one, okay?

[Jeremy] Okay.

[Aaron] If you were stranded on an island what is one thing you would take with you?

[Jeremy] Babe?

[Audrey] I feel like practically, if that actually was the case, I mean,

[Jeremy] You would take a boat of course.

[Audrey] It's a really Christian answer, but I would probably take my Bible, but I actually probably would because I wanna say I'd take a practical thing that would keep me alive

[Jeremy] Because she knows but even if I had one practical thing to keep me alive I'd still probably die.

[Jeremy] It's because you know I'd take the practical thing.

[Audrey] Yeah that's true. If Jeremy's there with me, Jeremy'd bring the practical thing.

[Jeremy] Now, Honestly

[Aaron] So the one thing you'd take is Jeremy.

[Audrey] Yeah.

[Jeremy] Oh there we go, that's good

[Audrey] What would you take, babe?

[Jeremy] I'd take, I would just simply take a knife. Yeah, a good, nice knife. 'cause you can build fishing hooks, you can build ropes, you can build all the things.

[Aaron] And they're awesome.

[Jeremy] Yeah and they're awesome. I mean, I don't even leave the house without one. So it's like, why would I go to an island without one?

[Aaron] That's true! Yeah.

[Jennifer] Don't you guys have the same knife, Aaron, you and Jer?

[Aaron] I think we do, yeah. I have it on me right now.

[Jeremy] Yeah, same here. Cool.

[Aaron] I think that's a good answer, I'd say a knife, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Bible. Yeah, so.

[Audrey] There you go! Oh my gosh, complementary things.

[Jennifer] I can't get a volleyball out of my mind. Not that I would choose that, but

[Jeremy] I know right? I mean I haven't seen that in a long time.

[Aaron] Yeah, on the beach. Awesome. Hey listen, Jennifer, why don't you read the quote from Chapter 9 of our book, Marriage After God, and that'll get us kinda started on what we're gonna be talking about?

[Jennifer] Okay it says this, "Your marriage is not our marriage. You and your spouse are not us. You don't have our experiences, talents, education, or upbringing. The beauty of the body of Christ is that each and every part is unique. Your marriage included. And God will use your uniqueness for His purposes if you let Him.

[Aaron] Yeah, and the whole point of this chapter is just, sometimes, there can be this hesitancy or this hold back, because when we look at what other people are doing for God, and other people's unique life and experiences allow them to do certain things we might ask ourselves, or tell ourselves, "Well since I'm not a preacher, or a good preacher, I can't do ministry or I'm not gonna be used." or, "Since I'm not musically inclined, I can't, you know, be used by God," or we have all these things that we kinda qualify whether or not we are valuable to God in His body, and that's just not, it's a lie from the Devil, and the truth is, God's made us all uniquely. And it says that the Spirit's given us all gifts, to be used for the edification of the body, and so our encouragement for today in this episode is to just talk about not just the uniqueness in our marriages, but to encourage those listening to recognize how God is uniquely endowed them and gifted them with whatever God's given them. Their stories, their histories, their talents, their resources, their education, and how He desires to use that for His kingdom. So that's kinda what we're talking about today.

[Jeremy] Cool, yeah excited.

[Jennifer] Okay so, our first question for you guys is, how are you currently using your unique marriage and background and everything God's given you to build His kingdom, and what you guys are doing?

[Audrey] Yeah, well. I think we, Jeremy and I, actually like a couple months ago, so this is pretty fresh for us. We've sort of been talking about this for a long time, but we finally did it a couple months ago, is write out our marriage mission statement, have you guys ever done this?

[Aaron] No, not directly. But yeah, someone did actually just talk about this.

[Audrey] It was super,

[Jeremy] We hadn't either,

[Audrey] We had always like talked about it loosely, in our relationship, on like what we want be about, and how we wanna use, like you said, our unique marriage and background, and everything God's given us to build His kingdom, but we've never really like laid out, in a two-sentence thing what that actually looks like, and what is unique to us in that. And so we did that, and it's still not,

[Jeremy] It's still not fully done,

[Audrey] Still not fully

[Jeremy] Because we realized, like wow, once we're putting this to paper, it definitely gets a bit more, difficult [Audrey] We want it to,

[Audrey] We're kind of just tweaking it slightly in words and stuff, but I'll read what we do have right now, I just for frame of mind, but it says, "We want our marriage to be a creative representation of the love of Christ that is refreshing, inviting, and igniting. We want to inspire our generation to be intentional with their time, work, words, home and relationships." So that's kind of like, that's the blanket statement, of what we want to be about.

[Jeremy] Yeah, and then everything we kind of do, going back to the question, should ultimately achieve that goal. And for us, it's just been super helpful to be able to have that for this year even, and just be able to say like, "Okay, does that achieve this?" If not, then like we're not gonna do it.

[Aaron] So it sounds like your mission statement is literally, "We wanna encourage others to use the unique stories of their lives."

[Audrey] In a creative way.

[Jeremy] Yeah exactly.

[Aaron] Yeah, I love that.

[Jeremy] And then we do that through Beating 50 Percent, which is the marriage ministry we started. It's basically a conduit. We try to interview older and wiser people, and then deliver that content to millennials and a younger generation in sense. And so that was kinda the purpose of that, and it's really molded into something pretty amazing. And then, you know, the Always More thing, does the same thing. It just helps women be more intentional and always believe in the 'more' that's within them. So we've got all these little projects going that we feel feeds into this ultimate mission statement. But for us, the mission statement is definitely an anchor in the sand. As we keep pursuing these ventures, and figuring out what the Lord has for us, and opening doors and shutting old ones.

[Audrey] Yes.

[Jennifer] That's great. So when you guys are considering, you know, the mission ahead of you, and the purposes and plans that you're laying out, and working together on these things, these projects that you mentioned, how does the unique way that God's equipped you fulfill those things? Like, can you talk a little bit about some of your strengths?

[Jeremy] Yeah, totally. That's a good question. I feel like, Aud and I, we've always had, like even before we got married, and I think it was even the first year we were dating, we were joking about, like, "Oh we're gonna write a book one day about our story." Or something. Or we're gonna work together, Or we wanna do something

[Audrey] We love stories together. And from the very beginning, we just always had this, I don't know, this yearning to actively work in the kingdom, for the kingdom together. You know? And I think it was our, when was it babe? First year of marriage, like at the end?

[Audrey] Yeah.

[Jeremy] Maybe about a year into marriage when we finally took the leap, and started pursuing some of these things a little bit more actively. But yeah, we've got a ton. I mean they call us on the Instagram, "Fire and Ice" like, we fit together pretty opposingly, but it's like perfect fit, if you will. And so it's I gotta

[Audrey] And I think too, one of our strengths is that like, Jer and I, we actually are kind of similar in a lot of ways

[Jeremy] Yeah. Maybe more so than some of our friends who are married, I'd say we have a lot similar desires, a lot of similar passions

[Jeremy] For sure. Interests, and so,

[Jeremy] But we have very different giftings I would say.

[Audrey] Yes.

[Audrey] Yes, totally. But just like in terms of personality almost,

[Jeremy] Yeah.

[Audrey] There's a lot of similarities and common ground.

[Jeremy] Yeah.

[Aaron] Yeah, you guys, tons of energy. And then when you put that together it's like

[Jeremy] Yeah.

[Aaron] Okay you guys have double the energy now, triple, maybe

[Jeremy] For sure. It's like putting two candle flames together and watching the candle get bigger.

[Jeremy] And we manifest that energy differently. Very differently, because of our gifts.

[Audrey] That's true.

[Jeremy] The Lord's given you stuff that like, stresses me out, I could never do. But you do it energetically, and same on other side of the aisle, He's given me gifts that are completely not really your gifts, but I can do them very energetically. And so when we put those together yeah, it's that Fire and Ice combo.

[Aaron] You know, when I think about what you guys have been doing and I think about the unique experiences and the unique backgrounds that you guys have that have afforded you unique things and how you've used them for the Kingdom, I think of the show, you know, Little People, Big World, and the audience that you guys were able to build on Social Media, which, that's a unique thing, not everyone gets to say that they have that. Right?

[Jeremy] For sure.

[Aaron] And you know, what happens is you guys, just because you have these unique experiences, it doesn't mean that others that don't have those experiences don't get to use what God's given them, because you guys could've squandered the resources that God's given you, those unique opportunities, you know, the unique growth in your Instagram platforms and Social Media platforms, but you didn't. Instead, you took what He's given you and said, "Okay, well we have this, how do we use this unique thing that other people don't have how can we use this effectively and as good stewards? Have you guys recognized that, are you constantly trying to navigate that?

[Jeremy] That's so good. I think that first of all, everyone, I think the world puts a lot of emphasis on circumstances, and we almost heighten circumstances to be "If I don't have that circumstance, then I can't do this or that."

[Audrey] Or just the grass is always greener.

[Jeremy] Or grass is always greener! Yeah, I mean, even people in our circumstance, right? Can say the same thing or have the same attitude. So I think it's kind of an attitude thing. I mean, the immediate example that comes to my mind is just Paul, right, I mean, he was the most opposite. He might have had a circumstance of power, but he was the most unexpecting, complete opposite image of who God was gonna use. And he was totally used. Same with Rachel, and who's her sister? Leah? Rachel and Leah? Right? Like Leah was totally unexpected. And the Lord's like, "I'm gonna do amazing stuff through you." In the same way, some people might not have a huge following or a TV show, but if your attitude's postured toward the Lord and His Kingdom, that's His favorite thing to do, is use you. That's all He wants to do is use you. But it's our attitude, not our circumstances.

[Audrey] I love that. Also, for us, we really have a heart to inspire people to believe that there's more to their story. And sometimes there's more to your story than what you even get to see and realize is going on, because sometimes God just wants to keep us humble, and not show us all the fruit that we're producing in our lives. And you know, maybe we'll get to know it when we meet Him face to face, but I think just believing, Jeremy and I, we really have a heart to inspire people to believe that there's more to their story. And believe that there's more to God's story, and that there's always more that we can be learning in Him and His story, and trying to align ourselves with that story as opposed to getting so caught up in other people's. So, that's just something that I think is a huge part for us.

[Jeremy] For sure. And then, my last thought on that that just popped in my mind too is that we need to be careful that we don't turn what we think is success or helping the Kingdom into against what God might think it is, you know?

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jeremy] So it's like, maybe just going to work and leading a couple people to the Lord will have the multiplications, maybe those people will go out and do some amazing things and then by process

[Audrey] You don't get to You won't get to know

[Audrey] Know until but by process of

[Audrey] Until you get to multiplication you've just

[Audrey] Heaven done more in the kingdom than someone with a TV show.

[Audrey] Right.

[Aaron] Yeah, and so you're just bringing that up but I'm thinking of Billy Graham who has led to the Lord by a Sunday School teacher but I don't even know the Sunday School teacher's name, but that Sunday School teacher, that woman, you know?

[Jeremy] Yep. She had a heart posture.

[Aaron] Yes, and her posture was "I'm gonna show this little boy who Christ is, and teach him about the Lord." And you're right. 'Cause you could, anyone could take a good thing and make it a bad thing. What God's given us, we can squander or we can mismanage it, we can use it against Him.

[Jennifer] Or just avoid using it.

[Aaron] Or just avoid using it, you know, when we think of the parable of the talents and the one who was given the one, buried it,

[Audrey] That's a great example.

[Aaron] And we talk about that in book, of like, it doesn't matter what God's given you, He's given it to you.

[Audrey] Yes.

[Aaron] And you have been given something. And for you guys it was a TV show, it's the social media platforms, it's your businesses, your books, and you know what? You're responsible to produce a return for God, just like I'm responsible to produce a return. Just like the person listening. God desires us to serve Him, with what He's given us, and to multiply it for Him. Whatever that looks like.

[Jennifer] And I love, Jeremy when you were talking you said, you know, you were talking about heart posture, and if we just had a heart to use what we have for God, that that's His favorite thing, and that He's going to use you. And I just loved that, because it's so simply put. It's like, that's His favorite thing. And He's our Father, and how cool it is that He gets to look down on us, and work through us and move through our marriages in these extraordinary to Him ways. And so I just wanted to reiterate for everyone listening. 'Cause I think that was pretty cool.

[Jeremy] Thanks Jen. Also, I'm just thinkin' like, so often I've fallen prey, even in our situation, or our circumstances I've fallen prey to be like, "Well, if I just had this," or "If I want that." And then I think like, "Holy Smokes. Look what I'm do have, and I'm not even stewarding this as well as I can?" So it's like, if we're not mastering where we're at, why do we think we even deserve to be somewhere we're not?

[Aaron] Right.

[Jeremy] I don't wanna, that can sometimes dabble into the prosperity gospel, where it's like, "If I do this, I'll get this." And that's not what I'm saying at all, but it just goes back to that heart posture.

[Aaron] Yeah, it's that posture of obedience. Of like, "Okay Lord, you've given me these unique gifts and talents, and I wanna invest them for you, I wanna use them for you, not for my own glory, not for my own gain, which sometimes those come with obedience. We see that all throughout the Bible, and sometimes it doesn't. We see that also. But He still requires obedience. And you know, you brought up a point of sometimes we look and say, "Oh I wish I had that gifting, or that talent." And I've fallen into this trap before too, and it's coveting, and we're not supposed to covet. Even the gifts our brothers and sisters, where we say, "Oh that person's so gifted in this or that. I wish I had that."

[Jeremy] Yeah.

[Aaron] It's okay to ask the Lord for more, but to look at someone, which sometimes leads, and this is even more dangerous, leads to us devaluing the brother or sister who has been blessed or is using a certain gift that we don't have, because we don't have it. Have you guys ever experienced that, or what would you guys say about that?

[Jeremy] Yeah, so formulate that question one more time for me?

[Aaron] Yeah, so this idea of coveting, and how we shouldn't covet, especially coveting from our brothers and sister, and how that could also lead to thinking negatively or degrading our brother and sister because, "Oh they don't deserve that, they shouldn't have that, I should have that."

[Jeremy] For sure. The immediate thing that comes to my brain is just that concept that you know, we're all the body of Christ and ultimately we're all on the same team trying to accomplish the same mission.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jeremy] Going back to the mission statement, it's like, scripture gives believers a pretty clear mission statement, and we should all be able to look back to that like okay, is that what I'm doing with my gifts? And you know, I think if we're all one body like sure, the ear might complain to the brain like, "Well why can't I see? I wanna see so bad." But little do they know that the eyes saying, "All I wanna do is hear." And it's like, if both would just live into their giftings, their callings, they would complete the body in a much more effective way than if they kept complaining about each other.

[Aaron] That was good, yeah.

[Audrey] I think too, one of the things, you know, just speaking specifically to marriages and love stories, one of the things that we say in our book a lot is "God is the author of your love story, and He doesn't write the same love story twice." And, we had this opportunity to be able to write our love story and it was so cool, but really God was the author of it. And our love story is not like anybody else's. And it shouldn't be.

[Jeremy] Yeah, we just pressed into the Lord.

[Audrey] But I think just realizing too that everybody has chapter in their love story that they maybe don't share, and I think that this comes back to the social media thing of, you know you brought up coveting and comparison, and I think that social media can sort of put that on blast.

[Aaron] Yeah, highlights it.

[Audrey] Just makes it, yes. And so I think, we gotta realize that there's a behind the scenes that people don't share. But on the flip side of that too, I think when it comes to friends in your life that you actually do love and trust and look up to, and are iron sharpening marriages to your marriage, I think it can be, I think this word 'comparison' this bad word all the time, but sometimes I think, like I just think of you guys not in a bad way, but just to be able look at you guys' marriage and see things in your guys' marriage and go like, I'm not comparing it to covet it, I'm inspired by something, or I'm challenged by something or I'm motivated to do something in my own marriage because of seeing your marriage,

[Aaron] Right.

[Audrey] So that just goes back to, and Jeremy said this, but like a heart posture thing, of is your heart posture, in looking at these relationships to grow in your own? Or is looking at these other relationships making you bitter or resentful or leading to coveting? You know, that's a heart posture.

[Jeremy] Yeah and I think it's a heart posture, that's really good babe. And it's a heart posture that pretty telling of how aligned you are with the ultimate mission. Or the mission statement, if you will of the Bible.

[Aaron] Yeah and it's this idea of coveting someone's gifts and talents, and thinking negatively of them because they have it and you don't, versus seeing Godly examples that we want to follow, right?

[Jeremy] Yes, definitely a difference.

[Aaron] And that's the idea of what we're trying to get at, and sound like what you guys are encouraging in your book as well, is, "Hey you may not have what we have, but you can live the way we live. You can follow Christ, the way we follow Christ. You can believe the way we believe. Have faith like we have faith." And the results should be people knowing God, and drawing closer to His word, and to Christ, but the means to that end are going to look so vastly different. And that's what's beautiful about it, is the ear is the ear, and the eye is the eye. Like you said. Go ahead.

[Jeremy] If we just pursued our own uniqueness, right? The ear is gonna hear a lot better, and the eye's gonna see a lot clearer.

[Aaron] Oh I like that, yeah.

[Jeremy] Something we say in our book a lot, it was kinda like my thread through the book and I would argue a huge part of the type of story Audrey and I wrote, not necessarily in our book, but in our life, our love story is something that kept coming back to me in dating Audrey was, what kind of love story do I want? And whenever I was faced with fear or comparison, or this or that, I just thought to myself, well, what do I want? What kind of story do I want? 'Cause the story we write today will be the story we tell tomorrow. And I hope you like what you read.

[Aaron] That's good.

[Jeremy] For me, that was a very encouraging thing in how I pursued my own uniqueness, my love story, and tried to resist the temptation to always compare it to someone else's. I forget who said it, but someone said, "Be yourself, 'cause everyone else is taken." And I think that fits here really well.

[Jennifer] Well, and I think it's a sober reminder to have ownership in all of your actions, in all that you're doing and what you're doing. Because even though a love story is a husband and a wife becoming one, there's still personal responsibility, and how do you live that out? How do you choose to love each other every single day and so I just love the perspective that you shared on that, and it's a reminder for all of us listening to take ownership and the responsibility that we've been given, and the privilege we've been given in loving one another and serving the body.

[Aaron] Yep. And so I wanna ask you this, you guys are really good story tellers,

[Jeremy] Thank you, Aaron.

[Aaron] Yeah, and you guys, just writing your story was one way that you allowed God to use the uniqueness of your marriage to point people to Him.

[Jennifer] Which, I gotta say, I loved reading your guys' story, I thought it was so beautiful. So inspiring! Even for us and you know, we've been married 12 years. I kept telling Aaron, "We need to be more romantic!" Like we need to be more thoughtful in the way we show each other love because that stuff matters. And so, I just appreciate the way you wrote your story and the things that you did choose to do for each other was really encouraging and inspiring.

[Aaron] So thank you, I wanna ask if you can encourage the listeners 'cause story, our story is one of the unique gifts that God has given us and our stories are, they're so dynamic and always changing. But how would you encourage the marriages listening the husbands and wives, and their saying, "Okay, yeah your guys' story's unique but we're just this couple over here doing whatever. How would you encourage their story to point people to Christ, to encourage people. It's testimony in story, so how would you encourage them?

[Audrey] Yeah, you know, just encouraging them alone, or encouraging you guys if your listening that your marriage is unique, it is one of a kind. It's a story that cannot be copied, and you have this opportunity to represent the Creator, God's creativity. You through your love story, get to be a couple that puts God on display as this creative God. You know? And that's something that draws people to God We think of so many, you know. I know so many friends that are drawn to the presence of the Lord just by being in His creation and seeing how creative He is and how beautiful He is. And so if our love stories are that way, like, how much more is that gonna draw people to Christ? And so I hope that is an encouragement to you if you're listening.

[Jeremy] For sure. I think just going off that, babe, I think that was really good, I think going off of that is, just recognizing that stories really are the best teachers. I mean if you look back to what Jesus did, that's how primarily, His message of delivery was storytelling. And then ultimately it's the story of His life, that all of history and future and eternity hinges on. And so, I just think, babe you said it so good, but just recognizing that no matter what your story is it's not over yet, and a lot of times we are emotional response to our story or our position is based on where it's been, or the struggle you're in, and rarely is it focused on the future and where God might have it going. And I think that's for me, that's really, really encouraging. Aud and I, we've tried very hard to write an amazing story, and we're continuing to do that. And I am so excited for where it might be headed, but ultimately it's headed where, because we're pursuing the Lord, we know our story's headed where the Lord goes, and it might go somewhere we do not want to go, if we measure it against culture or society and what's successful in their eyes, but if we measure by success of the Lord? You know, we're telling a story for a short amount of time, and how we tell that and pursue that ultimately will be a reflection of our eternities. So, that's really encouraging to me, and I hope that's really encouraging to the reader.

[Audrey] The listener!

[Aaron] Well the reader, their gonna read the books so, you know I love that encouragement, and that is the encouragement is, this life is but a breath. You know, that's what the Bible tells us, it's fleeting, it's quick. And one of the unique gifts that God's given each one of us is our story and our testimony. It's our past and how God has redeemed it. It our present and how God is in it.

[Jennifer] So I have a question for you guys. And maybe this is a more practical question, but as you guys are on this journey of writing your love story, how do you call out the uniqueness in each other and encourage each other in all these projects that you're doing?

[Audrey] In each other, like just Jeremy and I personally?

[Jennifer] Yeah, you guys see unique attributes in one another and then call them out, or say, "Hey I see this in you," or what does that look like in your marriage?

[Audrey] Yeah, well I think one thing, we've been better about this at some times than others but one thing Jeremy had us doing, it was like a couple years ago I think, when you gave me that jar for my birthday right?

[Jeremy] It was like two years ago, yeah.

[Audrey] But, Jeremy gave me this glass jar for my birthday, and a bunch of slips of paper that came with it. And every night, he would tell me one encouragement one affirmation, one praise, one thing he's thankful for me for, and he would write it down on the paper, and put it in the jar. And it was so simple! It was just before we went to bed, we ended our day with he would tell me and then I was always like, it was his thing that he gifted me for my birthday, a year of that, but then I was like, "Well I wanna tell you something back!"

[Aaron] Reciprocity, I like that.

[Audrey] Right, and then this year we were like, "Oh it'd be cool if like, we need to revive that, 'cause that was a couple years ago. And it's something so easy for us to just get caught up in talking about other things before bed especially lately, and so, we were just like, that was really sweet to end our day with that, such a simple thing.

[Jennifer] I love that, that's awesome.

[Audrey] I wish we could say it's been perfect and we've done it every night since the beginning of the year but we haven't but the goal is to sort of end our days with that. And that is then me thinking intentionally about "Okay what's one creative way that I can affirm Jeremy today? What's one unique thing that I admire about him?"

[Jeremy] Yeah, and encouragement is a weapon against comparison because encouragement, it affirms, right?

[Aaron] Right,

[Jeremy] Well comparison essentially is an unaffirming thought, like I'm less than, I want that, I'm comparing, but if you can encourage another, then it's just continual reaffirming of your gifts, your talents, and that's very strength building.

[Aaron] That's good, and it should bring us to a place of contentment with saying, "Lord you've given me enough." And, encouraging that in each other, like you have enough, you have what you need, you have these unique attributes, you have these special gifts, you have these special talents and a way of being, and I love that. And Jeremy, not coveting, but I'm wondering why you got all of the romance giftings?

[Jennifer] But what's great about this is now that you've shared it, we can glean from it, honey!

[Jeremy] Yeah!

[Aaron] Oh! The jar, I have a jar somewhere.

[Jeremy] Dude, go to the office, print a label, slap it on a jar.

[Aaron] There you go, share some of these tips, men are always looking for ideas to romance their wives.

[Jeremy] Yeah, definitely. I mean, that's been something Audrey's brought up quite a bit. It had a profound influence on her.

[Audrey] It did.

[Jeremy] And it's special but it goes back to first of all, I was very very inspired by the book, "A Severe Mercy" by Sheldon Vanuken. That book changed my life in a very powerful way. And since then, since that book, is when I started asking myself, "What kind of love story do I want?" And then when I ask that question, then I think, "Okay well, at the end of this year, I wanna tell the story of how our relationship is twice as good, twice as exciting, twice as romantic, or do I wanna tell the story of how I was lazy, didn't really think of anything, apathetic, you know, just kinda went through the motions? Same, same, fell into roommate syndrome. What story?" Because we're all gonna tell a story, and I hope we're gonna like what we hear.

[Jennifer] Yeah, we're all writing it, right now.

[Audrey] Yeah, We're all writing it right now.

[Aaron] Well, here's our final question for you guys, we've asked this to everyone so far, and we're gonna ask it to everyone we're gonna interview next. What is, in your own words, a marriage after God?

[Jeremy] I think that a marriage after God ultimately is a marriage that reflects God. So, you know, essentially loving the way Jesus loved us. Right? We're supposed to be known by the way we love one another. You know, I was talking to the Brotherhood and the sisterhood and our spouses, and if we can do that, if we can just press into the love for each other the same way that Jesus loved us, like that's amazing image of a marriage after God's heart. I feel and yeah, now that my mind's going, there's some ways that I could share,

[Audrey] Don't have the perfect sentence.

[Jeremy] Of how we do that.

[Audrey] I mean, a couple things just immediately come to mind, that it's a covenant, not a contract. A covenant cannot be broken, a marriage after God cannot be broken. And just this idea of oneness, in the same way that we become one with Christ when you know we're baptized and believers, and become Christians. In the same way, becoming one with your spouse, on your wedding day, and then letting every area of your life reflect that oneness. And making that a mission, you know, like how can we be more one, how can we reflect more oneness, because you know the Bible talks about it over and over. It says it so many times in scripture it says 'by how they love one another,' or the word 'one another' repeat, repeat, repeats, and 'unity' repeat, repeat, repeats. Marriage is such a perfect opportunity to reflect that at one another, that love, to reflect that unity. And we get to do that on a regular basis. On a daily basis through small things and the big things, just reflecting that oneness.

[Jeremy] Yeah,

[Audrey] And oneness in our marriage too, like, Jeremy and I have this funny phrase we've always used. It was a poem Jeremy wrote me a long time ago. But he said, in the poem he said, "Let's braid it together, Christ, you and I." And then since then, we've always said, "Braid it." Just like, God's that third strand of our marriage keeping our marriage strong.

[Jeremy] He's the strength of the strand.

[Audrey] If you're a girl and you've ever braided your hair with two strands, it will unravel and it doesn't stay together, right?

[Jennifer] True.

[Audrey] You need that third strand to keep that braid in tact. And so, braid it, is that marriage after God, it's a marriage braided with God.

[Aaron] #braidit

[Audrey] We used to do that when we were dating, #braidit

[Jeremy] Ultimately, I would probably sum up our jumbled thoughts here at this question by something we say a lot, and that is, "to find and still seek," now that is true love. And I think that that is ultimately a marriage after God.

[Jennifer] Awesome, thank you guys so much for just joining us on this podcast today. We just wanna just say thank for all of the perspective, and encouragement that you gave everyone listening, and all the inspiration for being romantic. 'Cause that gives some husbands and wives some good ideas walking away from this. Also, A Love Letter Life is such a sweet story of your guys' life and I just wanted to take a minute to just say that everyone should go get a copy because it just released and we're super excited for you guys about this, and I just think it's so cool that Jeremy, you've been on this journey of like, 'What kind of love life do I wanna write?' And now you actually got to write it!

[Jeremy] Yeah.

[Jennifer] Such a cool book, and I just wanna encourage everyone to go grab that. Can you also share where people can find you guys? Do you have a podcast, Instagram, all that?

[Jeremy] Yeah,

[Audrey] Thank you Jen

[Jeremy] Yeah, thanks Jen, that's really nice. Yeah we've got a podcast, Behind the Scenes podcast with Jeremy and Audrey. And then you can find our book at just, and you can see everything we're up to at

[Audrey] We're just Jeremy and Audrey Roloff on all the things.

[Jeremy] All the socials.

[Aaron] Yeah everyone, listen and go follow them. They're great, we love this couple. They've been a huge part of our life. We're gonna close in prayer, and we'll be out of here.

[Jeremy] I wanna say real quick, we really appreciate you guys, you guys have been a huge, huge inspiration to us, and a source of wisdom, and we just love everything you guys are doing. And it's an honor to be on your podcast. Thanks for sharing.

[Audrey] I wanna add one thing to that, just like if you're listening, Jen and Aaron you might think, 'Oh I'm really inspired by their marriage and all the stuff that they put out.' But Jen and Aaron are like this in person too, like they actually inspire all their friends, we are one of those friends, and they're the same. It's just, I don't know, as a friend being on this podcast, I just wanted to make sure that we said that.

[Jeremy] That's a good testimony.

[Jennifer] Thank you guys

[Aaron] Thank you. Okay, that was really encouraging, yeah. Praise the Lord. Jennifer, would you pray us out please?

[Jennifer] Yeah. Dear Lord, Thank you for making us unique. Thank you for making our marriage unique. We pray we would recognize our differences and the unique qualities you have given to us and how they can be used to do the ministry you have for us to do. Lord, help us to confidently embrace the uniqueness in our marriage. Help us to use everything you have given to us and how you have made us to glorify your name. We pray we would not covet what other believers have, or what other believers do for your Kingdom, but rather we ask that you would show us what you desire for us to do for you, and to do it joyfully. May we celebrate the uniqueness in your body, and encourage each other. Lord, use our unique marriage to point people to you. In Jesus' name, Amen.

[Jeremy] I love that, amen.

[Aaron] So we just want to thank everyone for listening to this week's episode, we pray that you enjoyed our conversation with Jeremy and Audrey Roloff. Go check them out at all of their websites, and their podcasts. We have quite a few interviews left in this series, so please stay tuned, pick up a copy of our book, Marriage After God, and we'll see you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Apr 10, 2019
MAG 08: The Impact We Have In This World With Our Tool Belt - Interview w/ Nathan & Daisy Walter

Order our new book today and join the marriage after God movement.

Here is a quote from the Marriage After God book.

"Just as God has led us on a journey with specific work to do, your marriage is also on a journey toward the extraordinary work God has prepared for only the two of you to do."

This chapter included part of our story and so today we want to highlight a piece of our story. In the second year of our marriage when things were really tough, we moved to Merritt Island Florida, where we met Nathan and Daisy Walter...except when we met them they were dating and then got engaged.

*Dear Lord,

Thank you for your creativity in how you made each and every one of us. Lord, you put so much thought and care into how you made us. Thank you for the resources you have given to our marriage and the unique talents and gifts that you have blessed us with. We pray that as Christian husbands and wives, we would not only desire to use all of the tools we have, but also pursue what you want us to do with them. We pray you would show us how you would like us to invest what we have so that we can grow your kingdom in this world. help us to encourage each other and affirm each other in how we use the gifts talents experiences testimony and resources that you’ve given to us. we pray that your name would be magnified as we remain obedient to all that you’ve called us to do. we pray that our marriages would represent and reflect your divine love story. May we be ambassadors of your love to this hurting world. inspire us to be creative in the ways that we share about you and share about the faith we have in you. thank you for the gift of life and for salvation.

In Jesus’ name, amen!*


[Aaron] Hey we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

[Aaron] And today we're in part eight of the Marriage after God series, and we're gonna be talking with Nathan and Daisy Walter about the impact we have in this world. Welcome to the Marriage after God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.

[Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife.

[Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution.

[Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade.

[Aaron] And so far we have four young children.

[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media.

[Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage. Encouraging them to walk in faith every day.

[Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life.

[Aaron] Love.

[Jennifer] And power.

[Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God.

[Jennifer] Together.

[Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.

[Jennifer] This is Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] So we just want to first of all, just say thank you for everyone who's been following along in this series. We hope that it's been inspiring you and impacting your lives.

[Aaron] You know, we're at the halfway point which is exciting.

Yeah, yeah. Super awesome, but before we move on in this episode today, we just want to ask you guys to leave a review, this is just one way that you guys can help support the podcast by spreading the podcast. When you leave a review, it helps other people find the Marriage After God podcast. And it's super simple, all you have to do is scroll to the bottom of the app, leave a star rating review or a comment review, and Aaron and I really appreciate it.

[Aaron] And also the reason we're doing this podcast in the first place, the entire podcast, and this series, this 16-part series, is because we wrote a book called Marriage After God, and you can get it today, and we'd love for you to get that, that's one of the best ways you can support this podcast. And also to support your marriage and to support the marriages around you, and just go to, and pick up a copy of our new book. We wrote this book for you guys.

[Jennifer] So today, we have good friends of ours, Nathan and Daisy Walter, hi guys.

Hey how are you doing?


[Jennifer] Thanks for being with us today.

[Aaron] We're so excited to have you guys on.

[Nathan] We're excited to be here.

[Daisy] It's good to be here.

[Aaron] Awesome, so why don't you, cause a lot of people know us and our online presence, but they don't know all the people we know.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] And so that's one of the reasons why we wanted to do all these interviews, is to let people know all the people that have helped shape who we are today, that God used in our lives, and you guys are one of those couples in our life. We've known you guys for a very long time. Why don't you let everyone that's listening know who you are, your children, what you guys do, and how we know you?

[Nathan] Right, well my name is Nathan Walter, and this is my wife.

[Daisy] Daisy.

[Nathan] And we have three kids It took me a second. Flynn, who's five, Aurora who is

[Nathan And Daisy] Two.

[Daisy] And Ivy's nine months.

[Nathan] Nine months goes by fast. We are youth pastors at a church in Florida, and we also have a worship band called the Quiet Science. So, between all that, we stay pretty busy.

[Daisy] Yeah, stay pretty busy.

[Aaron] With half of that, you're busy.

[Daisy] Yeah, and just the kids alone.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] So if anyone's familiar with the book launch surrounding the Unveiled Wife and our marriage story there, Daisy and Nathan are the ones that wrote that worship song that we wanted to launch with that book, called "The Unveiled" and it's available on YouTube if you guys want to check it out.

[Aaron] It actually still gets tons of views.

[Jennifer] I love that song.

[Aaron] Yeah, people say it's like their favorite worship song.

[Jennifer] You guys are so talented. I remember we had already been hanging out in our friendship for quite awhile, and we were hanging out at Daisy's parent's house when you guys had some instruments out, and you started kinda just fiddling around with them, and we didn't realize that you guys were like--

[Aaron] I know we had no clue you were--

[Jennifer] Really creative, you had a band.

[Aaron] It was like months of knowing you guys. And you guys are like, you guys start playing and singing in the living room, we're like, what's happening right now?

[Nathan] Awkward.

[Daisy] I'm like, oh my God, why did we do that?

[Aaron] Well, I think you guys were like practicing or something,

[Daisy] Probably.

[Aaron] Maybe you were going to be giving a show and we had no clue that you guys were part of a band. Anyways, we, go ahead.

[Daisy] Oh, no, it's just like, oh by the way, we have a show.

[Aaron] Yeah. But, how long has it been, we've known them? We met them in pretty much the first year that we were married, so 12 years now we've known you guys.

[Daisy] Yeah.

[Aaron] And you guys weren't married yet back then, you guys were dating when we met you.

[Nathan] No.

[Aaron] And then we got to go to your wedding. And even though we live on literally opposites of the country, probably the farthest distance we can be from each other. We still tend to keep in touch.

[Daisy] Pick up where we left off.

[Aaron] And pick up where we left off. That's one of the things we just love about you guys, is you guys are always changing in the right direction, you're always growing closer to God. But you're always the same to us. Which is cool cause we're growing with you, so. Why don't we get into the icebreaker question?

[Jennifer] Yeah, so, this is an interesting one. If you could have dinner with anyone from the Bible who would it be and why? And it can't be Jesus. Cause we know that's a given.

[Daisy] Um, I would say Isaiah. I know that's probably, I don't know. It's my favorite book and I just think, I don't know, he just seems like a wise old soul. And that's like, I don't know, that's my, thing. In every cast, every movie, my favorite character is the wise character.

Like Gandalf.

Like, I need wisdom, help me out! But I just--

[Jennifer] It makes for great conversation.

[Daisy] It does! I just, I don't know, I feel like, whenever something amazing hits me, I'm always like, "Oh my gosh, of course, "I'm reading Isaiah." Not that the rest of the Bible isn't amazing, but I just, I love Isaiah, I would love to meet him. Well, I will meet him, but.

[Nathan] Yeah, we will meet him.

[Daisy] We will.

[Jennifer] Okay, what about you, Nathan?

[Nathan] You know, my first answer was gonna be Paul, but I feel like that's really, um, just because he wrote a lot of letters about the church, and I would want to get his opinion about the church today and get all fired up with him. But I also, I don't know, I didn't want to be like, super, well never mind I'm not gonna do two. I was just gonna do two. I guess, just I was gonna say Paul or an Old Testament prophet, cause the thing I like about the Old Testament prophets or that I respect, is that they were alone. They were like completely alone declaring the Word of the Lord, and I know Paul was, it just seems like they were, there were so many people on Mission, you know, I just respect the Old Testament prophets having to do it by themselves with nothing but the Word of the Lord, and it's like, how did you guys do it? How did you stay strong?

[Aaron] Especially back then, when there was no church yet, it was God telling these men, like, "Hey, go speak this." And they're like, "Wait, they're gonna kill me "if I do that."

[Daisy] Yeah, yeah.

[Nathan] And my Old Testament prophet would have been Elijah, so. I know I didn't say it, but.

[Aaron] Oh there you go.

[Jennifer] So you picked two.

[Daisy] Yeah he did.

[Aaron] Elijah did have some pretty rad things he did.

[Daisy] Yeah.

[Jennifer] Great, well thanks for playing that little game with us. It always helps to let other people know a little bit more about who you guys are.

[Nathan] And you can catch people who don't know the Bible.

Here's a quote-I know, they're like, what person is that? So, here's a quote from chapter eight of our book. And then we'll get into the topic. "Just as God has led us on a journey "with specific work to do, "your marriage is also on a journey "toward the extraordinary work "God has prepared for only the two of you to do." So the idea of this chapter is just talking about the uniqueness of how God created all of our marriages and how He's given us unique talents and gifts and resources. And the specific purpose of this chapter is to show kind of that journey that Jennifer and I have been on and how He's uniquely gifted us, and all the different experiences, especially our relationship with you. You know, not everyone has this kind of relationship with you, and not everyone has the kind of relationships, everyone has different ones, and different resources and different experiences. And then toward the end of it we explain, but the point is, this is our marriage. It's not yours. And you, you and Daisy, have your own story, your own unique talents, gifts, resources, your own tool belt is what we call it. And God desires all of us, each one of us, to use what He's given us for His purposes, for His glory. And that we don't sit back and say, "Well, since I don't have Aaron and Jennifer's marriage "and their experiences and their education, "and their talents, then I must not be usable." Or, "Since I don't have this person over here "and what they've gone through and what they have, "I'm not usable." The truth is, that God's given us all--

[Jennifer] We're all one body.

[Aaron] Yeah, unique gifts, talents, resources, for the sake of the body, and for what the body's doing. What God's doing in this world. So, that's the purpose of this chapter, but today we get to chat with you guys to talk about the influence that you guys had in our story, and just to talk about where you guys are at and how we met, and so we're just gonna have some fun with that, and we hope that and pray that everyone listening gets just blessed by this conversation, and gets to also think about what God's doing through their marriage and in their marriage right now.

[Jennifer] So one of the things that we mentioned that's a part of our tool belt is relationships, and so we thought it would be cool to kind of dive into our relationship, with you guys, and just kind of go back to the beginning, because we met you guys at a time when, that first year of marriage was really difficult for us. And we didn't have a lot of relationships. But we were going to the same church, and you guys and your families loved on us, in a time that we really, really needed it. That time was impactful for us because even though we were enduring hardship, in our marriage, and we weren't really talking about it, we still were able to find ways to experience friendship together, with each other, and with you guys, and so I wanted to highlight that and how that impact is still impacting us in our relationships today. And has really impacted the ministry that everyone gets to benefit from this Marriage After God ministry. So Daisy and Nathan, what are some ways that we have had fun together?

[Nathan] Honestly, when I was thinking about that, there's so many things that I think we did and they were all pretty mundane. And I think--

[Aaron] Yeah, yeah.

[Nathan] I think that's what makes good friendships, is like, so many of our memories, I think, are sitting around on the back porch, playing some game Aaron had us play. Made up. Like, is it... And we were able to have fun no matter what we did, and I think that's kind of, not the key to good friendship, but I think it's evidence of good friendship, because there's so many people you're around where you gotta fill the silence, or you feel like you're entertaining, or you... And I think from the very beginning, we were always able to just, no matter what we were doing, we were having fun. So--

[Aaron] I like that. I think what you just said right there, is evidence of good, close relationship is not feeling like it's a one-sided thing. Cause that's essentially what entertaining is, you're entertaining a guest versus you're spending time with a, with a friend.

Just being in the presence. Yeah.

Being in the presence of. Daisy, what are some of the things that you remember that you guys, that we had fun with?

[Daisy] I remember going to, Charles and Casey's wedding, and you guys like, doing the lift, remember when you were dancing?

[Aaron] The lift?

[Daisy] Yeah!

The Dirty Dancing lift?

And you're like, "Come on, Jen, run toward me, run toward me!" She was like, "I don't want to!" And you made her do it.

[Aaron] I don't remember this at all!

[Jennifer] I don't remember it working very well.

[Nathan] It was the Dirty Dancing lift.

[Daisy] It was the Dirty Dancing lift, and remember their wedding was like, on the beach, that was the most fun wedding. And toward the end you're like, "Come on, come on, run, run toward me!" You did it in front of everybody on the dance floor.

[Jennifer] How embarrassing.

[Aaron] I forgot how weird we are.

Yeah, and for everyone--

Of course, everyone was cheering.

[Nathan] Yeah, I think all the girls were jealous, were like, "Why don't you do that with me?" That's so romantic of you!

[Jennifer] What's funny about this story is that, Aaron and I, we just don't like dancing, like it's a hard thing for us. So that's really funny.

[Aaron] I think we did most of the dancing around Daisy and Nathan. You guys drew the dancing out of us. So when I think about our relationship, I remember, we didn't initiate it. I don't remember us going to you guys, I actually remember us feeling pretty, not lonely, but just kind of there, at the church at the time. We just kind of, working with that mission organization.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] And I remember just, we would go on Sundays, and we had some people we knew and we'd say hi, and just did the normal Sunday thing. But I remember one Sunday, we were leaving church and walking out to the parking lot, and a car just pulls up to us. And invites us to lunch. And it's your mom and dad, Daisy. They're just like, "Hey you guys wanna go to lunch with us?"

[Jennifer] I remember we went to Red Lobster, and back then Aaron and I could not afford that, and it was like, heaven.

[Aaron] It was such a treat. That you guys just did that. Do you remember, were you a part of that, like did you know us before that moment? And you know, your parents driving up and inviting us, what was happening in that kind of season?

[Nathan] I don't know, I think, we were kind of the same way. Well, Daisy had gone to that church for a long time, but I think, um, we didn't have any friends that were couples. And I think that Daisy's parents were really like, "Hey there's this couple that we're gonna invite to lunch." And we're pretty shy and we don't do that kind of stuff, so it was almost like a, like they set us up

Like you're matchmaking us.

on a date or something.

[Aaron] It was a blind double date, I love that.

[Jennifer] It worked.

[Nathan] Yeah, and I just remember from that moment on, we hung out every day that we could.

[Daisy] Yeah, like every day. I feel like we hung out every single day.

[Jennifer] I remember, we went to lunch that day, and then we went back to your parents' house, and we stayed there until like midnight, I think.

[Daisy] Yeah, I remember that.

[Jennifer] It was an all day thing.

[Aaron] Didn't we go swimming? We swam a lot.

A lot.

[Daisy] Yeah, you always wanted them to turn on the jacuzzi.

What I love about that. Yeah, the hot tub, yeah.

[Nathan] That was Daisy's original answer, when it was like, "What did we do a lot?" Daisy was gonna be like, "The hot tub, "I think we were in the hot tub."

[Daisy] Aaron was always like, "So, jacuzzi anybody?" And I'm like, "Uh, sure."

[Aaron] It was, it was really great. And I think, so there's a couple things that were happening, cause Jennifer and I, and you guys didn't realize this, your parents didn't even know, you know, Jennifer and I were going through spiritual and just emotional turmoil in our marriage. But I think a couple things happened, we, I want to use the word used, we used our relationship with you guys to help us cope with where we were at. Which is, I think, a thing that we're called to do, we're supposed to lean on each other in the body of Christ, and rely on those relationships for strength. You know, when the Bible tells us to bear one another's burdens, whether you guys knew it or not, you guys were bearing burdens with us, that we would come and just, those many nights, many, many nights, you're right cause we spent, probably couple, three, four, five days a week with you guys sometimes.

[Jennifer] Thank you for being so willing--

[Aaron] Yeah, thank you for being there with us.

To build that friendship.

[Nathan] It was fun.

[Daisy] Oh, we were having so much fun.

[Aaron] Yeah, and just having fun with you guys, and chatting with you guys, and I remember we had lots of spiritual conversations, but, like you said, even the mundane things were, it was safety for us. And it kept us from spiraling into oblivion in our marriage, alone, because we had people with us. It made the dark times, the hard times for us bearable. And again, you guys didn't even really know, that was our fault for not really sharing with you guys where we were at. But what I love is that, you were saying that you guys didn't have those close relationships either, and how the Lord orchestrates like, "Hey, here's two of my, two couples, four of my children, "that I'm gonna bring together and use them "in each others' lives," whether we know it or not. You know, just because we're walking as Christians with each other. Um, so, why is friendship in marriage so important? Like, I'm bringing all this stuff up but I'm trying, I want to draw this out for the people listening. Okay, so why are friendships in marriage so important, first, and secondly, why was it so important to you guys?

[Nathan] I think that I value, our friendship more now that I don't get to see you guys all that often. Because, I think the older you get the more you realize how rare it is, that you have friendships with other couples that, both of them have a heart after God and a heart for you. And it's encouraging to know that, those relationships can exist, and that we can perhaps have other couple friends like that. I mean, we only have like two or three couple friends like that, that are all throughout the United States. But it's kind of nice to know, these are our brothers and sisters in Christ, and God has them elsewhere right now, but we're all on Mission. And even though it feels like we're apart, we're on Mission together for the same thing, for the same Kingdom. And even though we don't get to see them a lot now, we'll get to see them later, when the mission is complete. And I think that when things get rough, especially in terms of friendships with other couples, we always have that reminder of like, we have another, there are other friendships out there that we will get to see again, and they go through these same struggles as we are on Mission for the Kingdom of God, you know? God just has us different places on Mission, and it's nice to know that other people, there are others out there that are like you, that are on it. It's just encouraging, even, even without getting encouragement from people talking to you, just to know that you're out there doing it is, I don't know, it just gives you hope and encouragement.

[Aaron] So having that, just the experience that we had over those, you know, year and a half, two years, of building our friendship, what you're saying is, has given you, a standard to look forward to, in relationship with other believers, and an excitement for that. Do you feel like that's, so that standard, that way of walking with other Christian couples, other believers, has inspired you and Daisy to be those kinds of friends to others? Whether or not they can fulfill the other side of it? Like do you feel like you guys, you're like, "Oh this is what it looks like, "this is how we're gonna attempt to walk "with other Christians?"

[Nathan] Yeah, definitely. I think that having a blueprint for what a godly friendship in marriage looks like is certainly helpful when you are creating new friendships with other Christians. I think it's helpful to have a blueprint of what that looks like.

[Jennifer] That's really good. And can you explain a little bit about your and Daisy's friendship in marriage? Because I feel like, we've been talking about friendship as a couple with other couples, but why is friendship within marriage so important? And how do you guys cultivate that?

[Nathan] It's funny, we've had to think about that a lot lately as we, as we lead a youth group and we're talking to kids who are wondering about future relationship and relationships that they're in, and as we model a godly relationship for them. I think most of our strong bond comes from being in ministry together and trying to inspire these kids. And a lot of the kids mention, often, at school, like for the kids that are really chasing after God, they mention the loneliness. How lonely it is. And we just kind of, as we counsel them, have come to realize, and Daisy's actually the one who counseled them on this, who was like, "That's why it's so important who you marry. "That you marry a man of God or a woman of God, "because often the person you're with, "is hidden, possibly the only one there with you, "walking after Christ." And as she was telling me that, I was reading how Jesus sent out the disciples, and he sent them out two-by-two. And it was, in a duo, was the word. And often, I feel like, in marriage, we are the two-by-two. We are the ones

Huh. I like that.

standing together. We are the ones that encourage each other. We are the ones who pick each other up. When I'm down, she's the one who pulls out, and she doesn't just encourage me regularly, she pulls out the Bible, and she's like, "Well, you remember Joseph, when he was in prison..." You know what I mean, and just starts preaching at you. And it's not just regular encouragement, it's the word from God, coming from my wife. And like, you can't, it's hard to even survive without that. It is so essential, I think, cause I just look at it like that. We're going out two-by-two, and she is the person God has put me with, for our ministry to go out into the world. She's my encouragement, but she encourages me through the Word. And I just think it's vital.

[Aaron] I love that. And the two-by-two, the friendship aspect of knowing, like, you can't be friend with the world and friend with God, you can't be, it's hard to have an unequally yoked relationship where one's a believer, one's not a believer. Which is why the encouragement should always be, to singles, like, "No, no, you chase after, "you marry a believer. "Someone who loves God." And uh, sorry, I love that, and Daisy it's really awesome that you, you help Nathan like that, where you preach the word of God to him. Cause like, what better friend than someone that's gonna say, "No, actually, this is what the Bible says, "remember it. "Don't forget, Nathan."


[Aaron] And vice versa.

[Daisy] Well, I think, I think we do that. It's cool though, I think that we do that for each other. Cause it's like, I don't know. I think Nathan can tend to be more melancholy than I am, but like, I feel like there's always a balance. When I'm in that place where I'm like, "Oh, I don't know." And it's like, Nathan does that for me, and it's just cool cause it's like, I don't know, it's like I've got his back and I know that he's got my back, and I think that that's really important, that I know that he's also listening to God and being moved by the Spirit. Like I can trust, I can trust him in that way.

[Nathan] Yeah, I think it's important, like what we always do, there's no encouragement. People can tell me like, worldly encouragement, and it can make me feel good for a second. But I think with a spouse and someone walking through life with you that knows you well, we're just giving each other like, spiritual smacks in the face, almost. Where it's like, "You stop, you get up! "It says he stand on the Word "of the Lord and God has said this "and that's what we will trust in! "You stop hanging your head, you look up!" You know what I mean? "Where does your help come from?" And you just kind of like, you know what I mean?

[Daisy] I don't say it like that!

[Nathan] But it's like.

[Aaron] That's how Nathan hears it, though, Daisy.

Yeah, yeah.

[Nathan] It's just kind of like this inspiring, you know, don't fall into that, that's lies. This is the truth. And that's what we stand on.

[Daisy] Yeah, and well, the person that you marry, I think this is why, this is what we're always really trying to impart to the kids is like, the person that you're dating and the person that you marry, they have the strongest voice in your life. They'll end up replacing your friends, your parents, not like in your relationships, but as far as having the strongest voice in your life. So it is important to not just you know, be attracted to somebody, cause I think, you know, that's easier.

[Aaron] It is important, but not as important, yeah.

[Daisy] It's not, you know? You have to, you know, you have to have other things. And I think being friends with the person that you're with and someone that you can trust, when you marry them, they'll have the strongest voice in your life. And so do you want someone that's also following Christ, to have the strongest voice in your life? And hopefully the answer is yes for them.

[Jennifer] It is for us!

[Aaron] That's such a good, it's such a good encouragement. So taking, not just who you marry, right? But most people are listening, are hopefully already married. We have some singles that listen. But, the other side of this is those voices, right? Going back to friendships outside of the marriage, those people have voices too. There's a scripture that says, "Bad company corrupts good morals." And the principle of that is like, who you spend the most time with is going to have the loudest voice in your life. So like, your spouse is the loudest voice, right? And then, you know, the biggest influence. And then your relationships that you spend the most time with outside of that. And that's kind of what I want to encourage everyone that's listening, the importance of aligning your lives, your relationships, with other believers who are walking the same direction, are chasing the same things, who believe the same words that you believe, you know, in the Word of God, in the Bible, and aren't trying to, "Oh, don't worry about that. "Oh, that's not a big deal. "Oh, you wanna go do something else?' Not trying to take you somewhere else, but are trying to keep you there. And I think that principle that you have in marriage should just go straight out, too, and the Bible teaches that. To not be unequally yoked, not just in marriage, but in our relationships.

[Daisy] Yeah, oh yeah.

[Aaron] It says, "What fellowship does light "have with darkness?" Doesn't mean we can't have friends or relationships with unbelievers. But we can't have fellowship with them. And what you were talking about in the beginning of, you know, we had fellowship with you guys. The ability to just sit and be still with you guys, and laugh, and have jokes, and have fun, and eat meals, and talk about hard things and deep things with you guys, was fellowship. And we've, like you've said, that template, we've taken that template forever. Like all of our relationships, we look at it, and we, we say, "Okay, we're gonna walk with these people "the way we've walked with you guys." But actually more so because we weren't as open with you guys as we should have been. We were learning back then. And I believe we actually would've had a, probably, even a deeper relationship, if we had been more honest back then, but we didn't know how to be. We hadn't been taught that. We hadn't experienced what that looked like until later on in our story. Which again, happened around friends, of the same nature. So you know, it happened in those same environments that we had with you guys. But I want to ask you guys, speaking of the big picture, speaking of what God's doing in our lives, through our lives, in this world, for His Kingdom, we talked about how we didn't know what God might have been doing. But looking back, we look at the relationship we have with you guys and God leading us into that relationship, and the impact that you guys have had, not only on our story, but on the ministry that God's used us in, has been immense. You know, we talk about how we probably wouldn't be here today, together, if it wasn't for you guys.

[Jennifer] Yeah, I feel like hanging out with you guys gave us a reprieve from the turmoil that we were experiencing intimately in our relationship. So it was like this hopefulness of, well, we still get to hang out with our friends and we still get to do these fun things together, so it gave us this breath of fresh air and hopefulness for the future.

[Aaron] Yeah, and I don't know if you guys realize that. Have you guys realized that kind of impact? I know it wasn't intentional, necessarily, but looking back, do you see like, wow, God used us in the Smiths' life?

[Nathan] No.

[Daisy] No.

[Aaron] Awesome, okay.

[Nathan] I mean, honestly, when I look back, when I know now what I know about the struggles you were going through, mostly I just feel bad. Like I wasn't a good friend for not noticing and that I missed an opportunity.

[Daisy] Yeah.

[Nathan] You just feel kinda, I don't know, maybe foolish, like I wasn't listening to God. Or like, "Man, God, like, "they were right there going through this stuff "and I didn't even know, "like how could I not have known?" But honestly, that has made me try to be more aware. You know? I'm like,


[Nathan] "Man, are these people going through stuff I don't know?" Cause I don't wanna, I don't wanna miss that again, you know?

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Nathan] I'm glad the story ended up well, where God was able to move and use it. But like, what if, I think like, what if God placed us there to save something, and what if it broke down later? And we missed our opportunity to be the hands of God?

[Jennifer] I appreciate you sharing that.

[Nathan] But it makes me, it's definitely something that I think we've added to our blueprint of what a Godly relationship looks like. Is like, watching out for them. Watching out for your friends. Watching for signs that they might not wanna talk about or face but I mean, I think that's what Christians do. We're supposed to hold each other accountable, encourage each other, and sometimes, everyone hides stuff and doesn't wanna be honest and talk about issues, but that's what God's called us to do.

[Aaron] You have to be light in each others' lives.

[Nathan] Yeah. And so I think we've just kinda added that to the blueprint of what we wanna do for future friends.

[Jennifer] I love that you shared that. And I just wanna point out a couple things. The first being that, even though you didn't know back then, you guys still were walking faithfully and were obedient to what you knew, which is how to be a righteous person, and how to encourage one another. And that's what you guys did for us. So I think the encouragement here, for those listening is, even if we don't know the details of what other people are going through, and we still walk in obedience, we still have an impact. And I think that's really awesome.

[Aaron] And I was also, I was thinking, of the Scripture, when Paul's talking about, "One waters, one plants, "but it's the Lord who brings the increase," and I just want to encourage you guys that, and those listening that, even though you didn't know, it's possible that, well we're all in a place where we didn't know certain things, but our maturity levels as Christians, you guys, weren't married yet until later.

[Daisy] Right.

[Aaron] And so, being faithful where God has you, with the knowledge that you do have, yeah you probably back then, could have asked us some questions, right? But you didn't know to, right? But that doesn't mean you weren't faithful. It doesn't mean you didn't do what you were called to do. You might have been naturally walking in that relationship with us, but it was out of a love for Christ in how you guys just normally live, and how you interacted with us. And I just want to encourage you that, you guys watered us. Whether you knew it or not, you may not have been the one planting, and I think you partly were planting in us, too, but the Lord's the one that brought the increase in our story. That's none of our responsibilities to bring the increase. God wants us to be faithful with either the planting or the watering or the both. And so, those listening, recognizing that we are to be faithful in our walks with Christ, and the knowledge that we have of Him, and to walk with other believers the way the Bible tells us to. Regardless if we have all the answers, regardless of if we know how the story's gonna turn out, whether we have all the puzzle pieces in the right spot, He just wants us to be faithful in those relationships the way He wants us to be. And what happens is God brings the increase. You know. And the encouragement, also, to people who are trying to witness and encourage people that aren't followers of Christ yet. Who don't, who aren't regenerated in the Spirit, who haven't accepted the Gospel, to be faithful in who we are as Christians, in the message that we've been given, and knowing that God's gonna do with that seed and the watering what He wants to do with it. And trusting that, and just continually being faithful in that, so. I just want to encourage you guys that, whether you knew it or not, you were watering and planting in us, seeds of faithfulness, of friendship, of truth, encouragement, and all of those things, God has used in our life. And so, I love that God has also used our relationship to show you how you guys can more intentional in your future relationships, and I'm sure you have been.

[Daisy and Nathan] Yeah.

[Aaron] Which is something God wants us to be, and so I think that's just wonderful.

[Jennifer] Yeah, that was gonna be my other point. When you were talking about how it's made you more vigilant to ask those bigger questions, and to have eyes to really see and discern what people are going through, and I think that also is an encouragement and testament for those listening that we can be, you know, people who pursue intimate relationships with other believers in this way and be willing to ask the bigger, harder questions, for their sake and for ours, so that we can exhort one another.

[Daisy and Nathan] Mmhmm.

[Nathan] Yeah.

[Aaron] So I want to just ask you guys, we're talking about friendship and relationship and whether or not you knew God was using you doesn't really matter, because God was. And when we're faithful to God and just walk with Him, and--

[Daisy] Say yes to Him.

[Aaron] Say yes to Him, and we pursue the things He loves and wants, He uses it. And He is faithful in that way. But in your own personal lives, you guys have been given a tool belt as well, and you have gifts and talents and resources and relationships and things that God's given to you and wants you to invest for His purposes. How do you guys encourage each other to use the gifts that you have? In your marriage and to those outside your marriage?

[Nathan] Just in the positions that we're in, I think a lot of the things that we have in common, that God uses most in us, is our musical abilities. And we love worship. And our love for youth and their struggle that they go through. And I think that, honestly, I think that I love Daisy the most when I'm watching her worship, or watching her counsel a young girl. I don't want to sound weird, but it's like, really attractive to see her using her gifts for God's glory. And God's given me similar gifts.

[Aaron] That's awesome.

[Nathan] That's how God kind of pairs us, I think. You know, like, we have passions for the same thing, and I think I love her most when I'm watching her use it or when she'd come home and she's like, "Oh, this girl's talking to me about this, "and I said this," And when I hear her answers, you're just like, "Oh man, it is so, man God just used you, "and what wisdom!" And you have to encourage each other in that, too, because usually after I say something or she says something or counsels someone, we come back and we're like, "This is what I said! "Was that okay?" You know, and it's nice to have someone be like, "Yes, no, that was spot-on, that was so good what you said. "I mean, that's what I'm gonna say, "if I'm ever asked that question." You know, and in a ministry, sometimes you feel the weight of every word that you say. This person needs hope in this moment, and they've come to me and I'm the person who has to give it to them. I am God in their, I am the person God can use right now, oh God, please, like this is important. So it's really nice to have someone to check with. Or be like, "Man, did I get that right?" And kind of, check your wisdom. And it's so nice to have someone who's there with you in the trenches being like, "Oh man, no, that was God, that was awesome."

[Daisy] I feel the same way, I just feel like it's, I don't know, you have so much wisdom. I'm like, "This kid wants to talk to me, "I need you to be there, so you can say smart things!" Not like, not that I'm not smart, I don't know, I just feel like sometimes I get tongue-tied, and I'm just like, "Okay, Nathan, you gotta do this for us, "represent us both." I don't know.

[Aaron] You guys are answering exactly what I was thinking.

[Nathan] But that's also like, why it's important that I encourage her. Because often, she'll say things that I wouldn't have thought of, like sometimes the right intelligent answer isn't what a person needs to hear. They need to hear a loving answer. Sometimes they just need an open ear. And I see so many times when people say, "Oh I didn't have the right answer," and then I'll just like, "Maybe God just wanted you to listen in that moment." And so, I think what Daisy says is awesome. And so I like, encourage her, be like, "No, you can do it, you are capable. "When you say stuff, I'm like, 'Man, that was awesome! "'How'd she come up with that?'" I just think it's nice to be reminded by the person you care about the most, that you know, God is using you and that you're on track.

[Jennifer] I think that's so powerful. And to tie it back into what you guys were talking about earlier, about voices, and you know, the impact that we have in each other's lives, like you guys are ministering to young kids, and as a couple, your voice is so powerful and so impactful, and when you go back to, you know, conversations of what you guys have been through, or experienced with these children, you're refining each other, and you're building one another up, you're encouraging one another, you're gleaning from each other the wisdom that you're each sharing, and you're cultivating that voice that you're sharing with the world. And I love that, and the impact is unfathomable, like you'll never know the extent, the impact you're actually having in each individual life that you guys are ministering to. And I think that's true for every marriage after God. And that encourages me.

[Aaron] Which is why we need to be excited about what God's doing in us, faithful about it, and just like, you know, you brought up the Old Testament prophets. The Bible tells us that, in Hebrews, none of them got to see what they were told they were gonna see. They were looking forward to what we get now. And so this idea that we might not ever see how God is fully moving, because this picture He's building is huge. But as long as we're excited about it, we're encouraging each other, we're moving forward, we're faithful in the things He's given us, and investing for Him. God's gonna do what his purposes are in this world, and we get to be used sometimes, which is awesome. And so, praise God for what He's doing in you guys, and through you guys, and we praise God all the time for, just our relationship with you, and what it means to us. And so our prayer is that, the couples listening will be able to experience close biblical friendships and how that can impact the world for God's Kingdom, how it can impact their marriages.

[Jennifer] I would like to encourage them listening, everyone, all of us listening, to remember that we don't have to sit around and wait for God to give us friendships, but that we have an obligation to be the friends that He has called us to be in other people's lives, and we can start doing that today.

[Aaron] Or we can wait for our parents to set us up

Set us up.

On a double friendship date. Well let us take from your parents' advice and let's do this for our kids. Set them up on double friendship dates.

[Jennifer] You know, at the end of every episode throughout this series, we've asked each couple to share this last question, and so we're gonna ask you guys as well, it's, in your own words, what is a marriage after God?

[Nathan] I think a marriage after God, I think starts with each individual seeking after God with all their heart. And then, then when you come together, and to each of you individually, God comes first, then when you come together in marriage, everything you do is for His glory, and is about Him and about furthering His Kingdom. And the evidence is shown in your children, in the way you spend your time with them, and the things you say to them. And the way you encourage them, and the way you build them up, and the way you handle their mistakes. It's evidenced by, how you encourage one another, where your encouragement comes from, are you just encouraging someone like, "No, you're the best!" Or are you like, giving them biblical encouragement? Which is where the real strength is. And like, and it's evidenced by sharing each other, like "Oh this is what I read in the Scripture today." Like you can amass so much more biblical knowledge if you have two people reading the Bible and then sharing with each other what God showed.

[Aaron] That's awesome.

[Nathan] Or even like, reading the same thing and having different, "This is what God showed me," "This is what God showed me," and like, God kind of like, uses us to sharpen each other in every aspect in our lives. In parenting, in work, in ministry, in health and fitness.

[Aaron] It's true.

[Daisy] Well yeah, I think just having Jesus at the center of your marriage kind of changes your priorities, you know. And I don't know, it's like, it kind of takes the, hopefully it's not like it's perfect from the get-go, but I think it really helps with like, the selfishness you can find in marriages, or even just friendships. When you're constantly reminding yourself that Jesus is at the center, I think it really helps keeps your priorities straight, you know.

[Aaron] That's so good. The point is like, hey, remember what we're doing? We're getting off track, what's going on? Love that. So guys, we love you guys, we miss you guys a lot, so you guys need to come to Bend, Oregon and visit us soon.

[Daisy] Oh, we miss you, too.

[Nathan] We love you guys, too, we miss you.

[Aaron] So, can you guys let everyone know where to find you guys, your music.

[Nathan] Yeah, we are the Quiet Science. We are on Instagram. We're still on Facebook. We are on, you can listen to us on Spotify, we're on iTunes, we're everywhere. The Quiet Science.

[Aaron] The Quiet Science.

[Daisy] He always says it really fast.

[Aaron] And we definitely want to encourage everyone to go check em out, their music is awesome. They've been doing it for years and they do it as a couple.

[Daisy] Our secret band.

[Aaron] Yeah, we want to thank everyone for listening to today's episode. We pray that it's been an encouragement to you in your marriage, to seek out godly friendships, and to realize that God wants to use your story, He wants to use the relationships in your life to impact this world for His goodness, for His purposes, for His Kingdom. And so we're just gonna end in prayer.

[Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for your creativity in how you made each and every one of us. Lord, you put so much thought and care into how you made us. Thank you for the resources you have given to our marriage, and the unique talents and gifts that you have blessed us with. We pray that as Christian husbands and wives, we would not only desire to use all the tools we have, but also pursue what you want us to do with them. We pray you would show us how you would like us to invest what we have so that we can grow your Kingdom in this world. Help us to encourage each other, and affirm each other in how we use the gifts, talents, experiences, testimony, and resources that you've given to us. We pray that your name would be magnified as we remain obedient to all that you have called us to do. We pray that our marriages would represent and reflect your divine love story. May we be ambassadors of your love to this hurting world. Inspire us to be creative in the ways that we share about you, and share about the faith that we have in you. Thank you for the gift of life and thank you for salvation. In Jesus' name, Amen.

[Aaron and Nathan] Amen.

[Daisy] Amen.

[Aaron] So again, thank you for joining us on this podcast episode. This is part eight of the Marriage After God series. We're halfway, we have eight more episodes and eight more interviews. You're not gonna wanna miss em, so we look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at And let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Apr 03, 2019
MAG 07: Being Good And Faithful Stewards With Our Finances - Interview w/ Josh + Priscilla Millsap

Join the marriage movement and order our new book today. Marriage After God.

Today we interview some old friends of ours who have been on a faithful journey with money and business together. They even host Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University groups at their home to help others join their journey.

Quote From Chapter 7 Of Marriage After God

"The goal for every marriage after God is to build a healthy and biblical financial foundation so as to be good stewards and good servants with everything God entrusts to us."

Quote from Marriage After God... “This may seem elementary, but often the simplest things produce the most powerful impact over a lifetime, and it is those very things that often get neglected.”

*Dear Lord,

Thank you for giving us the resources we need to accomplish the mission you have for us. Thank you for showing us in your word how to be good stewards with what we have. We pray that as Christian husbands and wives we would walk in wisdom when it comes to our finances. May we be on the same page in marriage, and may we communicate well with each other as we submit to you. We pray that we would not waste the things that you have given to us but instead we pray we would invest them for your kingdom. We pray that we would see everything that we have, our marriages, our children, our assets, our time, all of it, as gifts you have given us to steward well. Please help us to be an example in this world of how to live righteously. Help us to be an example to our children and to teach them your ways. Lord, help us to steward this life well for your namesake.

In Jesus’ name, amen!*

[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

[Aaron] And today, we're in part seven of the Marriage After God series. And we're gonna be talking with Josh and Priscilla Millsap about being good stewards with our finances. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.

[Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as UnveiledWife.

[Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as HusbandRevolution.

[Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade.

[Aaron] And so far, we have four young children.

[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media.

[Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day.

[Jennifer] We believe the Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life,

[Aaron] love,

[Jennifer] and power

[Aaron] that can only be found by chasing after God

[Jennifer] together.

[Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.

[Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. Thank you guys so much for joining us this week. We just wanted to take a moment and just encourage you to leave us a review on the Marriage After God podcast. This is just a great way to get the message out there that the podcast is live and that this message is for every marriage. So we just wanted to ask you to go to the bottom of the app and just leave a star-rating review or a comment review.

[Aaron] And also, we want to invite you, the whole reason were doing this 16-part series and all these interviews, is to talk about the Marriage After God book that we wrote together. It's how you can support this podcast, and we'd just love to get a copy in your hands. It's called Marriage After God, and you can go to and pick up a copy today. We'd love for you to get a copy.

[Jennifer] So today we have Josh and Priscilla Millsap. Thank you guys so much for being with us today.

Hi, you're welcome.

Hey! Thanks for having us.

[Jennifer] Would you just take a moment and just let everyone know who you are, how long you've been married, how many kids you have, what you do for work, that kind of thing?

[Josh] Well, we are Josh and Priscilla Millsap. We are, let's see, it's gonna be 14 years here in June. We have four kids aging from 13 to four--

[Aaron] Wow, awesome.

[Josh] And we do quite a few things when it comes to work, everything from our own business that is Pristine Solutions, where we do window cleaning, screen repairs, and few other little odd-end things as well, and then also I have an outside sales position with a company called Hunter Engineering.

[Aaron] Awesome.

[Priscilla] And I stay home, and I home school, and I help run the business, the window cleaning business as well.

[Aaron] Awesome, so you guys work together and have some other side work. We love that because that's kind of our story a little bit too. Awesome, so how do we know you guys? How do you know us? Where did we meet?

[Priscilla] I met Jen through my sisterhood Bible study. I think she came with a friend one time, and so we met through then and kinda connected and just via social media have kinda stayed in touch.

[Jennifer] Yep, I've been following you for a while. You have such great encouragement too. I always get refreshed when I see your stories up, so I appreciate that.

[Priscilla] Oh, praise God, thank you.

[Aaron] Yeah, and one of the reasons we wanted to interview you guys is because we see you guys as a marriage after God, and that you guys use your talents and resources in many different ways to serve God, so we're excited to kinda dig into some of those things. But before we do that, we have an icebreaker question.

[Jennifer] A fun question.

[Aaron] Yeah, and since we thought of a question that was around money because we're gonna be talking about being stewards, and this is a funny one because this has nothing to do with stewardship But if you were given, and both of you gotta answer this, if you were given $100 today, and there's not gonna be any shame or guilt in what you spent it on--

[Jennifer] No strings attached.

[Aaron] What would you spend it on?

[Priscilla] Oh, well, easily either date night, but selfishly, probably just more Lululemon.

[Aaron] I love that story.

[Jennifer] That's awesome.

[Priscilla] But go ahead, babe.

[Aaron] They have the best gym shorts.

[Josh] Yeah, it would definitely be a date night. We have one of our favorite restaurants that we haven't been to in quite a while that we would, that I would definitely use that for.

[Priscilla] Yeah, that'd be fun.

[Jennifer] That's so awesome, you guys. I love that. Okay, so we're gonna move on to the quote from Marriage After God from chapter seven. It says, the goal for every marriage after God is to build a healthy and biblical financial foundation so as to be good stewards and good servants with everything God entrusts to us.

[Aaron] Yeah, so how does that, just real quick, when you hear that, do you feel like that is something that is encompassed in your guys' marriage and life, something you guys are striving towards? What do you guys think?

[Josh] Yes, yeah it is, absolutely. Being a good servant towards God as well as stewards of everything He's given us is a huge calling as a Christian husband, but also as we grow closer to God, that is definitely what He's calling us all to do.

[Priscilla] Yeah, and I would say it doesn't really matter what place you're in, whether you're struggling or you're maybe more, your foundation is a little more secure financially or you're prospering, whatever you have can be used to help build up the kingdom. I mean, whether your house is big or small, you can still use that. I think sometimes we think we have to have so much more to be a good steward, but technically, whatever you have, and so, no matter where we've been at in our process of getting out of debt or whatever, we try to use what we have to benefit others or bless others or build up the local church or stuff like that.

[Aaron] I love that perspective, and it's exactly what we're trying to get across in this chapter of the book, being a good and faithful steward is. We sometimes, and I remember, there's been times in our life, Jennifer, that we would say, well, if we had a little bit more, then we'd give more. If we had a little bit more, we'd save better, or we'd be able to do that one thing that we know that we've been desiring to do for God, but you're right. As long as it's something out there, we'll never do it, but if it's something that we have now, we can be a steward with it and be faithful with the little, or whatever it is now. I love that.

[Jennifer] Yeah, I remember that we were tempted to think that way, but it didn't take very long for God to kind of prick your heart and get you to lead in a way that encouraged us to be good stewards with even the little bit that we had.

[Aaron] I remember the spirit just saying, hey, if you're not gonna do it now, why do you think you'll do it later?

[Priscilla] Exactly, yes, that.

[Jennifer] And Priscilla, I really liked what you said about it doesn't matter what you've been given, whether you're prosperous or not, because that right there is so relatable to everybody listening right now. So everybody's accountable and responsible for what they have today, so I just love that we're starting out the episode with that.

[Priscilla] Yeah. Yeah, 'cause we've definitely had--

[Aaron] So--

[Priscilla] Oh, sorry, go ahead.

[Aaron] No, you go ahead.

[Priscilla] Oh, I was just gonna say we've definitely had times where it's like, we're living out of boxes, and we're living in someone else's house, but still even having community with people. I don't know. We kinda make excuses sometimes for why we don't jump out there and do more. But that's a huge encouragement. You don't have to have a lot to really just bless someone or reach out or have community.

[Jennifer] Yep.

[Aaron] Yeah, you just have to have what God's given you and then steward it well. Use it for Him, use it for your family, and not squander it. So how would you define being a good and faithful steward over what God has given you guys? We've mentioned some of it, but how do you define that in your life?

[Josh] Well, being a good and faithful steward, if we look at Matthew chapter 25, when he actually talks about the talents, the story of the talents, it really has to deal with resources, not necessarily a monetary thing, so learning how to use everything that God has given us in a proper perspective of a Christian not owning anything but being in charge of what everything God has given us in total resources, family, friends, influence, whatever it may be, understanding that our role is not to own but to simply manage on God's behalf is a huge thing for me.

[Priscilla] Yeah. I think just using that perspective--

[Aaron] That was a really good quote real quick.

[Priscilla] With all of our, it's easy to grip on tight to what you have, but stuff comes and goes, right?

[Josh] Yeah.

[Aaron] Yeah, always. I love that quote you said, what was it? I almost forgot it. Oh, we don't own things, we manage things.

[Josh] Yeah.

[Aaron] And I love that.

[Jennifer] So how does our stewardship affect what God is inviting us to do, whether that's good or bad?

[Aaron] If we steward well or steward poorly, how does those actions affect, how when we're being invited by God to do something, when we're chasing after God, does it matter?

[Josh] Yes, it does.

[Priscilla] Yeah.

[Josh] Especially in that Matthew 25 section is, while you can see that God honors and blesses the good and faithful stewards with more, and yet the one who decided he was not going to do anything with it and basically be a sloth with it or lazy with it was punished. So he really does value those that make sure that they have a proper mindset about how God has blessed their life versus those who just sit on it and take advantage of it and not use it to bless God.

[Jennifer] Was there a point in your guys' marriage when you guys looked at your finances and said, we have to change? It wasn't going in the direction that you wanted it to go, it wasn't lining up biblically, and you just knew?

[Priscilla] Oh, girl.

[Josh] Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Priscilla] Let me tell you.

[Aaron] Tell us, tell us, yeah.

[Priscilla] Yeah, we struggled. I mean, I think we just kinda saw the way our parents lived, but obviously, they're 25 years or so ahead of us, but we're seeing the way they live, and we're trying to match that with making nothing-burger amounts of money an hour. And so we really got into a lot of debt, including like he already had student-loan debt before I came in the picture, so when we got married, we were already about $100,000 in debt, which is crazy 'cause I was 19, and he was 23. So that's how we started off our marriage. Also, not to mention, I was pregnant, so that's a story for another day. So there is already just so much going on there, and it just made it really stressful, so we really limped along for about two-and-a-half years, and had someone not stepped in and gave us some resources, we probably would be divorced. But my dad actually gave us The Total Money Makeover for Christmas.

[Aaron] From Dave Ramsey?

[Priscilla] Yes, yes, Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover, and we literally sat and read it on New Year's Eve, and then that new year we just decided to change our life. And we were what he would call gazelle-intense, and sell everything but the kids, have garage sales. So that was like, okay, this is a real plan and a real hope for us, 'cause I think we knew the direction we wanted to go. We just felt like we couldn't get there or didn't really know what to do or have a steady plan in place. So that was a real game-changer for us.

[Josh] Yep.

[Jennifer] Awesome. So, when you started to make those changes in your life, did you have little victories that encouraged you and motivated you? Can you share a little bit about that?

[Josh] Yeah, those were kind of fun because when we were in that so much debt, there was so much tension built around just about every aspect of life because, as a husband, my wife was so stressed about the money and the bills were coming in, and as a husband you kind of feel like a failure when your wife is in such a stressful position in something that you should be able to handle, finances with work. And so it was, when we finally got on the same page and saw a future in the direction that we wanted to move in, when we would pay off those off little bills and we would get those things out from underneath us, the weight that was lifted off was just huge, and we could finally feel victory and direction in a way that we knew was God-honoring as well.

[Priscilla] I think I remember--

[Jennifer] That's so awesome.

[Priscilla] Yeah, like our first garage sale we had, we made $500, which was so exciting, but we were trying to get that first step of get a little $1,000 emergency fund, so that was even a very real, tangible victory there. And yeah, our whole life shifted pretty fast. So there was a lot of things. Obviously, the tension between us lifted, like you said, and we actually went back to church 'cause we hadn't been to church in a while, and we started giving. So there was lots of little shifts that happened very quickly.

[Aaron] So you guys started giving during this season of, this gazelle-like sprint?

[Priscilla] Oh, right away, right away. Now, I wouldn't say it was high. We hadn't even been in church regularly, and so we were like, oh, well this is telling us we need to give, so I guess we should go back to church if we're gonna do that.

[Jennifer] That's awesome.

[Aaron] Go, Dave Ramsey.

[Priscilla] We go back to church, and we just were like, okay, Lord, we're gonna just step out in faith and do $25 a week, which was a lot for us at the time, 'cause we were drowning in debt. And then, I think probably a few months in we went to $50 a week, and probably six months into this journey we were at a full-blown tithe, but yeah, God really just honored even that little bit of just stepping out in faith.

[Jennifer] Wow, that's so awesome, you guys. I think I said "awesome" already so many times already in this episode, but I really appreciate your guys' transparency, and I think that the first thing that comes to my mind as you were sharing is that a lot of people are gonna understand that weight that you felt underneath that debt, and there's probably even people, couples listening who are under that weight of debt. But how encouraging it is to hear that even something like a garage sale and getting your feet, jumping in or running like a gazelle, like you said, toward that to accomplish it, those little victories matter so much. So I just wanted that to be a note and an encouragement for them to hear. So I just appreciate you sharing that, because I think that if they, hopefully, this excites them so that they start making action steps toward their debt and getting free.

[Priscilla] Yeah, that's so, so important, yeah, little victories to motivate you.

[Aaron] So, I got a question. Are you guys debt-free?

We are not

Not yet.

[Priscilla] currently debt-free, no.

[Aaron] Okay, which is totally fine, but my second question to this is do you guys live now in a, what we call in the book, a debt-free mentality?

[Josh] Yes.

[Priscilla] Yeah, so just to be totally transparent, we got very, very close on our journey. We did pay off all those student loans. We paid off all our credit-card debt. We were driving paid-for cars.

[Aaron] Awesome.

[Priscilla] So we got there. Last year, we made some career changes that did, we did make the decision together to take on a little bit of debt. That was really, really hard for us to do because of the journey that we've been on, but we really felt like this was the path forward. And there's been so many crazy, cool things since making that shift 'cause we really had to, yeah, we had give up some things. There was a lot of sacrifice there, so but it's been really cool to see what the Lord's doing with that. So but now, yes, we're back on that track, so it kinda feels like we've gone back to square one, but we've done it before, and we're gonna do it again.

[Josh] Yep.

[Jennifer] That's so awesome to hear.

[Aaron] So I love that 'cause I want everyone listening, 'cause most of the country is in debt--

[Millsaps] Yeah.

[Aaron] And our heart in this chapter in this part of the book is to say just because everyone's doing it doesn't mean we should do it.

[Priscilla] Exactly, totally.

[Aaron] And so, that debt-free mentality is, whether you're in debt or not, that you begin to act like you would be when you're out of debt.



[Aaron] Meaning you don't overspend, which is Dave Ramsey's model anyway. It's like, spend within your means, save, pay off your debt. But I wanna ask you guys, the getting out of debt is awesome, and I don't wanna over-spiritualize getting out of debt, but why does it matter that we get out of debt? Why does it matter that you guys are faithful and good stewards with your money? It's not just for the sake of being debt-free and, oh, good for us, we're debt-free now. Why is it? What's the big deal?

[Priscilla] Oh man, okay, so I don't know where this verse is in the Bible. Maybe someone can find it later. But the one where it talks about running the race and laying aside every weight, you know what I mean? Being in debt isn't necessarily a sin. I mean, there's sin at the core of that, and that's how you got there or whatever, but it's just running the race for the Lord and having a healthy marriage and a healthy family, it just creates so much stress, and you kinda have, if a lot of your focus is there, and it could be an indicator of where your heart is at, and it's different for each person, I suppose. But if your focus is on your financial woes, and oftentimes, seven to eight out of 10 people are living paycheck to paycheck. That's stressful, and a lot of that is because we have gotten ourselves in these monumental piles of debt, and we can't think straight. We can't focus on other things, or you're having to work so much to pay all this off. When you're mentally spent, and you're physically spent on just trying to pay for your lifestyle, you can't really focus on the things that are the most important, like discipling your kids, and building up the local church, and loving on people around you. And you're also, there's a lot of opportunities you're gonna have to say no to because financially you just don't have the means, or things you want to support, so it just becomes a weight, really, like a noose around your neck that you can't, you have very limited freedom on the opportunities and things you're able to do.

[Josh] Yeah. I was gonna, to piggyback on that, that we are the example to our kids that, as we deal with money, as we deal with stress, as we deal with debt, our kids are watching how we behave, how we deal with, how do we overcome the struggles of something may not go our way for a month or something. How do we deal with that, and are we faithful to God in prayer? Are we understanding that He provides everything for us and that ultimately we're gonna trust in what He has planned for us? Or are we gonna sit there and blame each other, blame the world? How are we gonna deal with things that don't go our way? And our kids are always watching, so as we have a proper perspective of our role as Christians within the confines of what God gives us, they are watching, and they are learning.

[Jennifer] Gosh, Josh, that is so good, and I just love that you went there because we all, as parents, need to be reminded about the impact we're having in our children's lives and the foundation that we're setting them up for, and I just, that is so good and so right on, which kind of leads me into this next question. Because I follow Priscilla on social media, I saw a picture of her daughter recently with a bunch of bottles in front of her, baby bottles filled with money. So I want you guys to explain that and explain kind of that example that you're setting for your kids and how you're incorporating them into what you guys are doing.

[Priscilla] Yeah, so, I mean, we really try to keep it super simple for them. That actually was our Bible study got together and collected some money for a local organization here called Corona Life Services, which is basically a pregnancy crisis clinic, and so that was really cool. But they actually were the ones, my kids actually were the ones that even went around our neighborhood, just talking to people about Corona Life Services. And I think--

[Aaron] That is so cool.

[Priscilla] Yeah, it was really, really cool. And who's gonna say no to kids? So that's a great way-So, I mean, it's like, some money, send your kids. No, I'm just kidding. But, so we--

[Aaron] It's good strategy.

[Priscilla] Yeah No, but it's funny, actually, because we just got, you get, at the end of the year you get your giving statement from your church or whatever, and each of our kids actually had one because they go and they put their money in, they fill out the little envelope.

[Aaron] That's really cool.

[Priscilla] But we had just basically taught them spend, save, give, like, what you're earning, 'cause our kids are hustlers, man. They've seen us just hustle for the last few years, and they're like, we want to hustle. What could we do? So they've done all kinds of things. And so, they have their own bank accounts, and we go to the bank, they fill out their own thing, and so, once they have so much in a little stockpile, it's like, okay, this you get to spend, this we're gonna take to the bank, and this you're taking to church on Sunday. So we just keep it simple and just hopefully forming those good habits now 'cause I mean, I literally remember getting my first paycheck, and I'm like, I'm going straight to Guess and buying a pair of jeans. But already our kids are like, I'm not spending that kind of money. They're very frugal. Well, one of them is not, but we won't put her on blast. So But for the most part, yes.

[Aaron] But those skills are amazing for them to learn now. Like you said, you're building habits that we necessarily didn't have growing up. I'm sure maybe our parents tried in some ways, but just the intentionality of saying it's not just money and that we use it for ourselves, but this is actually something that's God's giving us, and how are we gonna manage it?

[Priscilla] And they're learning to hold it loosely at a young age, you know what I mean?

[Men] Yes.

[Priscilla] I actually saw my son do something that sort of blew my hair back, and then I was convicted that it blew my hair back 'cause I'm like, that should be everyone. But we were doing a gift for someone, and we were kinda pulling some money together. We made this cute little thing with it, and just for a family we wanted to love on, and a bunch of people came together and did this. And I'm like, hey, I asked my kids, I'm like, you guys wanna participate in this? And it's not like, hey, we've got some money, and you have to participate, but I want them to want to? And my son, I was like, just a couple bucks we could tie on there or five bucks. And my son comes in with a $20 bill, and I'm like, baby, you know what I mean, it's fine, just grab a five or something. This sounds horrible, right? Maybe we should make this podcast anonymous, but--

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Priscilla] He's all, well, I don't need it. He's like--

[Smiths] Aww!

[Priscilla] And I was like, oh my gosh. Why did I just try to talk my son out of giving? What's wrong with me? But it just blessed me so much.

[Aaron] Are you sure you want to give that much?

[Priscilla] How much do we have? And it's like, we have stuff we don't really need, but anyways, it's cool to see them forming those habits and holding it loosely and not being. I think it's easy to just want to hold onto everything you have, but and you just don't know, what the seasons come and go, and so.

[Jennifer] Well, good for you guys. We commend you for teaching your children rightly and righteously, and I just hope that this is an encouragement for all of us parents today to be leading our children the way the Bible calls us to.

[Aaron] Yeah, and I have another question for you guys. We're getting down to the end. But again, going back to what we were talking about. The whole purpose of all this is we're not just good stewards for the sake of good stewardship. We're not just savers for the sake of having more money. We're not just debt-free mentality just for the sake of getting out of debt. God's got something for us to do. He's got a ministry for his body to be working in, and we're a part of that body. And I noticed in your Instagram feed that you guys, I don't know if you guys are still doing this, but you've hosted Financial Peace University classes at your home for other people. What motivated you guys to do that, not just for yourselves, but now you're like, hey, let's bring other people into this?

[Priscilla] That's exactly it. We just wanted to see people have victory in their financial lives. I mean, really for us, it turned our whole life around.

[Josh] Yeah.

[Priscilla] It wasn't just turned our bank account around.

[Josh] No.

[Priscilla] Our marriage was struggling. Our finances were struggling. We were just struggling, all of it, spiritually, we were struggling big time. So it really just, it was a catalyst to get us on the right track. And not everybody's in that dire of a circumstance, but for sure--

[Aaron] But many are, financially.

[Priscilla] Yeah, and really, accountability for us, continuing to do that, and then just yeah, really wanting to see people's eyes open to the possibilities of when we're giving like we should, when we're saving like we should, and when we're managing our money like we should, there's opportunity there.

[Josh] Yeah, but I mean, and you kind of alluded to it a little while earlier. In high school and in school we're not taught how to deal with money for the most part. We go to school, we learn what we need to learn, but we're not really instructed on how this world works around money, and so going these Financial Peace or the Dave Ramsey, we actually got an understanding of how money works. And so we saw frustration and stress on a lot of other couple's faces, and it wasn't that they were struggling with anything necessarily huge, but you could just see that desire to want to get beyond where they were at, but not have the knowledge or the ability to really understand what they needed to do. And so, we would kinda just make the suggestion, like, hey, well, this really helped not only our marriage, but an understanding of a direction that God really wanted us to go with our money.

[Aaron] I love that, and it's you guys ministering to other couples and helping them mature, helping them grow, walking with them as you are also walking in these things. And what's funny is that, or not funny, but what's amazing is when we walk in obedience in little areas, and I see money as a little area, even though it feels so big, but it's a little area because, once we figure it out and get control of it and start walking rightly in it, it just starts happening, making more sense and working better. It doesn't mean we're gonna be wealthy, but if we're out of debt, we're already wealthier than 90% of the country, right?

[Millsaps] Yeah.

[Aaron] Just because you're out of debt, even if you only made a minimum-wage job.

[Priscilla] Totally.

[Aaron] But I just love that we serve God in those little things, and it makes it easier for us to serve God in bigger things. And I'm sure as you guys do this it's easier for you to open your homes for other things. It's easier for you to go, and like you said, you gave a little bit each week, and then you gave more. That's a perfect example of us walking in faith, being faithful with a little, and being able to be faithful with much.

[Jennifer] Yeah, and what I think is cool is that in your obedience to managing your finances well, you experienced those mini-victories--

[Aaron] Yeah, those little wins.

[Jennifer] or large victories, and that motivated you to say you can do it too, and you reached out to other people.

[Millsaps] Yeah.

[Jennifer] And that's a large part of the message of Marriage After God. The book is to inspire couples to say, what have we experienced, what have we walked through that we can then encourage other people with?

[Aaron] You can do it too.

[Jennifer] And say you can do it too. So I just, I think that's so awesome that you guys have done that and are still continuing to do ministry together as a team for God in even other ways. So, super awesome.

[Aaron] So I got two more questions for you. The second-to-last one is this. If you can encourage our listeners right now with two things that they can do that'll help them gain victory in the area of finances and just being good stewards, what would you say?

[Priscilla] Oh, gosh, two things. Well, one, get on a budget. Get on a budget. Get on, write down a budget. That would be, you need to start there, knowing how much you're even spending and what you've got coming in, going out. We can't just walk around in the dark.

[Josh] Yeah, it's hard to imagine, but there are couples out there that either one or both really have no idea how much comes in and how much is going out.

[Priscilla]Yeah. And then, gosh, I would just say start giving. I think that stepping out in faith is so important, and really just trusting the Lord to, just trusting the Lord with that. It's so tempting, especially when you're in a tough spot, to want to hold on to what you have. And like I said, you don't have to be like, okay, 10% right away. Start with just something that you're gonna be committed to and yeah, I would say give.

[Aaron] Right, which is practicing generosity, practicing obedience of giving to those that are teaching you and maturing you. I love that.

[Josh] Yeah, it also feels literally intuitive.

[Jennifer] Awesome, guys.

[Josh] You want to, in the moment when you're trying to save and pay off debt, it doesn't make sense to give something away in that kind of a setting. But as we're obedient to what God's word calls us to do, and that's something that he puts a great importance on, then he sees that as that step of faith, and that's a good thing.

[Aaron] I love that. I think of, when you just said the world obedience, and I think of the story of the rich young ruler going to Jesus and saying, Jesus, how do I get to heaven? And He says, follow the commands, and he's, I've done all these commands. And He says, one thing you lack. And He says, go and sell all that you have, give to the poor, and follow me. And I think a lot of people have taken that, the poverty gospel, and saying, oh, if you have things, you're not holy. If you things, you're not, but that's not what's actually happening.

[Josh] No.

[Aaron] Jesus has given a command to this man, and he disobeyed it.

[Priscilla] Yeah.

[Josh] Yeah.

[Aaron] So, the problem, He says, the thing you lack is obedience to me. He says, sell all you have, give it to the poor, and follow me. And he walks away sad because he's got much wealth. He would rather enamored and enveloped in his wealth than be obedient to Christ.

[Josh] Well, and his wealth--

[Aaron] And so, like you said, that obedience--

[Josh] His wealth had given him a comfort level that he was really used to, and he was fine with attaining righteousness along with his wealth, but he didn't understand what that cost was really going to be, and it was hard. He didn't want to do it.

[Aaron] Yeah. And the cost is, like I was getting at, is obedience. Christ wants obedience. And so, like you said, you practice that obedience. It may be counterintuitive--

[Priscilla] Yes, exactly.

[Aaron] But He wants generous hearts in His body. He wants generous givers. He wants people that trust Him, and I just love that. Thank you for that.

[Jennifer] Okay, you guys, we're moving on to the last question, and it is this. In your own words, what is a marriage after God?

[Josh] In our words, a marriage after God. It's really understanding your role as a Christian, as a husband, as a wife, to know that we are servants. We are, again, we don't control, we don't own anything, that God has put us here as servants to manage what He has given us, and as we are found faithful with what He's given us, He can trust us then with more, day in and day out, not only with money, finances, but resources, what we have at our disposal to do things to influence our friends, to bear each other's burdens, to really be able to dive into people's lives and be able to help and lift in a way that's practical as well as spiritually helpful.

[Aaron] Mm, I love that. Amen, wow.


[Aaron] Yeah, go ahead, 'cause--

[Priscilla] Oh, I was just, my word for the year is surrender, and so, really just, I mean, me personally, but just really surrendering, kind of our ideas of what our life should look like, and we've, man, we've had a rollercoaster of a year, and we just couldn't even have anticipated what all that was gonna look like, but really, just continue to press into the Lord and press into each other and keeping short account, staying vulnerable, really challenging ourselves to really be praying together often. So just really seeking the Lord together and being on the same page.

[Jennifer] Mm, that's good.

[Aaron] Praise God. Well, Josh, Priscilla, we are so happy to have interviewed you guys, and we thank you for your guys' honesty and openness in sharing your guys' journey, because that's where, I mean, everyone's on a journey. And the goal is, as marriages after God, that we're all chasing after God, and it doesn't mean that we're all at the same place in our walks, but that we're all going the same direction.

[Priscilla] Yeah.

[Aaron] And we say this throughout the book, unity, one mind, one heart, one spirit, with one mission, and so I just, I thank you guys, I commend you guys, and I pray that you guys would continue on that journey of getting out of debt so that you guys can just continue to serve more and more and give more and more, and we love that, so thank you. And so, what we're gonna do is we're gonna end in prayer, and then I'm gonna close us out, so join us. Dear Lord, thank you for giving us the resources we need to accomplish the mission you have for us. Thank you for showing us in your word how to be good stewards with what we have. We pray that as Christian husbands and wives we would walk in wisdom when it comes to our finances. May we be on the same page in marriage, and may we communicate with each other as we submit to you. We pray that we would not waste the things that you have given us, but instead, we pray we would invest them for your kingdom. We pray that we would see everything that we have, our marriage, our children, our assets, our time, all of it, as gifts you have given to us to steward well. Please help us to be an example in the world of how to live righteously. Help us to be an example to our children and to teach them your ways. Lord, help us to steward this life well for your name's sake. In Jesus' name, amen.

[Jennifer] Amen.

[Millsaps] Amen.

[Aaron] All right, so hey, we just thank everyone that's been listening to this interview. We hope you were blessed by it. We pray that you have some things to talk about as a couple, and this is episode seven in our 16-part series, and so we look forward to having you over the next episodes. See you next week.

[Aaron] Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Mar 27, 2019
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Pre-order Marriage After God today and join the marriage movement.

Mar 26, 2019
MAG 06: Walking Autonomously Doesn't Work w/ Tom + Heidi Celaya

Join the marriage after God movement today.

Quote from Marriage After God chapter 6

"Walking in autonomy is not only dangerous for your marriage, it is
also rebellious. Our relationship with Christ cannot be separate from
our relationship with other believers."

In this chapter of marriage after God we end with this encouragement: “Don’t wait to be pursued; be the pursuers. Don’t wait to be served; be the faithful servants. Don’t wait to be loved and invited. Love and invite. Be transparent with your marriage, be honest, and love well. We are all connected. We are all one in Jesus Christ, and He is our head, leading us and guiding us to do His will in this world.”

Dear Lord,
Thank you for the gift of your body. Thank you for the gift of fellowship and friendship. May we be people who are motivated by love to reach out and be a friend to others. We pray we would have the courage and confidence to be people who welcome others in, who are transparent, who are there for others, who lift others up and who pray for others. Use our marriages to be an encouragement to other marriages. Use us as a team to bring you glory, Lord. Help us to never live in isolation. Help us never to be divided. We pray the enemy and we pray our own flesh wouldn’t get in the way of fellowship. May our desire to participate in your body increase even more! May the way we treat one another be a light and an example to the rest of this world.
In Jesus’ name, amen!

[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

[Aaron] And today we're on part six of the Marriage After God series and we're gonna be talking with Tom and Heidi Celaya about the importance of Christian fellowship. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.

[Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife.

[Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution.

[Jennifer] We had been married for over a decade.

[Aaron] And so far, we have four young children.

[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media.

[Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day.

[Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life.

[Aaron] Love.

[Jennifer] And power.

[Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God.

[Jennifer] Together.

[Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.

[Jennifer] This is Marriage After God.

[Aaron] We just want to invite everyone that's listening to leave a review. That helps other people find the podcast. It's how iTunes works, it's how all the podcast apps work. A review helps us get reach. And also if you would like to support this podcast, we'd love to invite you to go to our store,, and pick up a copy of our new book, Marriage After God. It's what this whole series is about. It's our newest book and we're excited to get it into your hands. And yeah.

[Jennifer] Okay. So Tom and Heidi, thank you so much for being with us today.

[Heidi] Thanks for having us guys.

[Jennifer] People don't know this, but we've been friends for a really long time. What is it like nine or 10 years?

[Heidi] Nine years, actually this month.

[Jennifer] Crazy. Okay, so why don't you just share a little bit about who you guys are, how long you've been married, and how many kids you have, what you do for work, that kind of thing.

[Tom] Yeah, I guess this is my part, she said. So, we're Tom and Heidi. We've been married 11 years and three months, four months, October of '07. So we just yesterday passed our 14th dating anniversary, which she made me feel like garbage 'cause I didn't get her anything and she got me a couple things.

[Heidi] I did not.

[Aaron] You're like, I didn't know we were celebrating our dating anniversary--

[Heidi] I was at Sam's Club and got him a pair of shorts.

[Tom] Yeah, I didn't know we were celebrating. And you got me cookies as well. But anyways, we have two kids, a nine-year-old daughter, eight-year-old son. And yeah, we've been living in our home currently for five years, and I'm in medical sales for a job and Heidi runs the house here and handles our crazy kids. So yeah, we're kind of a normal, somewhat normal family I think.

[Jennifer] Awesome. Okay you guys, we're gonna go into our icebreaker question, which, Aaron, you want to ...

[Aaron] Yeah. What is one of your favorite memories of us from our friendship over the years?

[Heidi] Oh man. Favorite memory.

[Tom] I don't know.

[Jennifer] 'Cause there's so many.

[Aaron] 'Cause all of your memories are your favorite of us.

[Tom] Right, that's the whole--

[Woman] Yes.

[Tom] I've got a few. I don't know exactly which one I would say my favorite is. Gosh.

[Jennifer] I feel like when we think about this question, I was telling Aaron, all the late nights, all the late nights we spent at your guys' island eating ice cream and just chatting and laughing.

[Aaron] They don't own an island. Their kitchen island.

[Heidi] Yep. Thank you. I didn't understand what she was--

[Tom] I was gonna say, one of my, one of the ones I think of and laugh about, because I think it's disgusting, is the fact that we would go get ice cream and you would get a shake or a malt with half and half instead of, like, low fatter. I remember just thinking just, oh my gosh, that's disgusting, I can't believe he's drinking that. And we would probably--

[Aaron] Yeah, what was it? Circus animal ice cream?

[Tom] Yes.

[Heidi] Yes, with half and half.

[Aaron] With half and half. Half and half cream--

[Tom] In Clairemont, yeah. And you would just, you loved it and you would feel a little sick afterwards, but it was, we were always just laughing about it for a long time.

[Aaron] It was so worth it though.

[Jennifer] I think that's really abnormal. I don't think a lot of people would relate to you on that, Aaron.

[Tom] No.

[Heidi] No.

[Aaron] You're making me, I want one right now.

[Heidi] I think my most--

[Aaron] That's a good memory--

[Heidi] Story of you two is how we were kind of desperate for friends, married couple friends, and when we met you at Fuse kind of offering, hey, if you guys ever want, we are about 20 minutes away, but we'd love to have you over for dinner. And you actually took us up on the offer and I think--

[Tom] A lot--

[Heidi] What was it, three to four times a week over at my house, and I loved it. I think when you throw out that, hey, we should have you guys over sometime, it never really ever happens and you kind of feel a little bit hurt that they didn't take you up on the offer, but to have you guys take us up on the offer and for us to get so close and dive so deep into both of our marriages was definitely my favorite because I mean, we both put ourselves out there and opened up so much that--

[Aaron] Yeah, we loved that--

[Heidi] It couldn't have happened otherwise.

[Jennifer] And I think we were in a place in our marriage where we really needed it too. So I think that's really cool.

[Aaron] We definitely were, yeah. That's what this episode's about, actually.

[Jennifer] Yeah, this episode is all about friendship and fellowship and so we're gonna dive into a quote from Marriage After God from this chapter.

[Aaron] And it's walking in autonomy is not only dangerous for your marriage, it is also rebellious. Our relationship with Christ cannot be separate from our relationship with other believers.

[Heidi] So true.

[Aaron] Yeah, so that's from chapter six of our book, Marriage After God, and the chapter title's called Walking Autonomously Doesn't Work. And when we thought about who we can interview for this episode, you guys were the first people that we thought of because in our life when we needed fellowship the most and when we were afraid of it the most, we found you guys and you found us.

[Jennifer] Well, yeah, I was gonna say, it was that you guys wrapping your arms around us and inviting us to your table at that marriage bible study, which Heidi mentioned earlier, it's called Fuse. That was a turning point in our relationship and our marriage, and it just stands out to us and I think it forever will. And I'm just really excited about this because other people listening will be able to hear your guys' side of the story because if they read Unveiled Wife or if they're gonna read Marriage After God, we mention you guys and we mention your impact in our lives surrounding fellowship with other believers. And yeah--

[Aaron] Have they read what we wrote about them yet?

[Jennifer] No. But now you're here and they get to hear from you guys. So I love that.

[Aaron] Awesome. And you guys haven't read the chapter yet, right?

[Tom] No.

[Heidi] No.

[Aaron] Okay, good. It's all good stuff, I promise. Yeah.

[Jennifer] Okay, so speaking of that night at Fuse where we showed up, our marriage was in turmoil and we were just looking for that last ditch effort, kind of like, what are we doing? We step into this bible study, there's a lot of marriages and people there greeting one another and we're like freaking out on the inside. Kind of look at each other like, let's get out of here.

[Aaron] It was terrifying. Walking into that big old, a huge open room, and how many people were there when we came? It was like probably--

[Heidi] Probably 600.

[Tom] No, no. Probably about 350.

[Heidi] You think so?

[Tom] Yeah.

[Aaron] Yeah, 350 people. It was a lot. It wasn't as full as it got, but it was pretty full when we came.

[Tom] Yeah.

[Jennifer] And anyways, we were trying to sneak out. We were trying to find a way to just walk back out the doors and Tom comes up and sticks his arms around Aaron and I and he's like, hey, you guys new?

[Aaron] I remember getting startled by it actually. 'Cause we were walking backwards, which I know is--

[Heidi] And he's not a small guy either, so, big old mitts on your shoulders.

[Jennifer] So you guys brought us to your table and that was kind of the beginning of our friendship together. So Tom, you've mentioned that Aaron's appearance at the time, he had plugs in his ears, he had a beard and--

[Aaron] Yeah, tattoos on my wrist.

[Jennifer] Not the typical guy you would have been friends with back then. But can you just share, what was going through your mind at that moment?

[Tom] Yeah, let's state for the record, clearly I'm not a very judgmental person. At least I don't think though, but yeah, at the time, just, here's ... I am the non-talkative one of Heidi and I's relationship. To be very clear, Heidi loves the talking and doesn't stop. So, and that's just not my style. And so God has placed us in this marriage, which is a story in and of itself or in this marriage ministry where we took over this table at this marriage group, and he just blessed it. It became a huge group of probably around 30 people, so about 15 couples, and they really, what they wanted was 10 couples or 10 people at each table, five couples. And so we were big and it was, it's something I loved. Most of those people are still friends to this day, but it was a lot for me and just how I like to operate, so yeah, I look up that night and see these two. And we are also one of the younger tables there at the time.

[Aaron] Yeah, I remember that.

[Tom] Seeing you guys walk in, I was like, oh gosh, they're our age group. They're probably our life experiences as of right now, whether it's young kids or no kids and some are looking over there and thinking, uh, no thanks. I don't know this girl who is an all American gal is standing next to this guy who's got plugs in his ear--

[Aaron] A little weird--

[Tom] Short hair, a beard, all these things, I'm looking. Like I am 100% as I said a minute ago, I'm not judgmental, I was 100% judging and thinking, I would never hang out with that guy. That gal looks like a great friend for my wife, but I would never hang out with that dude, we've got enough people at our table, I'm good. And there's those times that God whispers and you're not sure it's God, and there's other times where you just kind of move. You're like, what the heck is happening, because I don't really want to be doing this and perfectly honest, that's what was happening. Is I just felt the nudge and the pull, and so I got up and walked over and yeah, and you guys were ready to move out. You actually were on the way out.

[Aaron] You saw it.

[Tom] I remember Jen's face was one of sheer terror, of, oh God, we almost got out of here and this guy just ruined it. And Aaron's was more of a, okay, okay, good. This, okay, we'll do it.

[Aaron] I needed it. I was, I needed someone to hold my hand in that moment because like, I wanted it, but I didn't know--

[Tom] Yeah, so we moved towards the table and that was literally one of those, it changed our life, changed our marriage, and it was one of those things, I'm darn glad I got out of my seat and went and did it. Because not only was that good for us, but I can also speak to others who have zero desire to include other people or you know, you hear a comment a lot like, I have enough friends or whatnot, which I think is a bad comment to make. One I've probably made my own, but it moved me out of my comfort zone and changed our lives for the better.

[Jennifer] I love that you shared all of that. And so much of this book is about saying yes to God in moments like that where he nudges you or he pulls you out of your chair and you say yes to him and you do it anyways. And I'm just so you guys know, we still really appreciate that you did that for us.

[Aaron] Yeah, and we not only have written about it extensively, but we share the story often and we, a part of the, what we talk about in this chapter, specifically with what you guys did in our life is when you, Tom and Heidi, said Yes to God in that one little moment, which was a series of yeses, becoming the leaders of that table and wherever God had led you before that, you wouldn't have known back then what kind of effect, lasting effect it would have in the fact that that one moment would not only turn into a lifetime friendship and relationship with us, but would also impact thousands and thousands of other marriages and people through your one act of obedience.

[Tom] Yeah, there's--

[Aaron] So I, go ahead--

[Tom] We've met people, or not met, I shouldn't say that. Actually, we have. People we've met and then also people we knew that years later we talk to or run into or Heidi meets randomly in a grocery store and like I said, she talks to everybody. We're mentioned right, as you helped our marriage or you were instrumental and perfectly honest, we did nothing. We were fools, of sorts, used by God because we didn't even know we had any impact on these people, let alone strangers, but then people we knew years later say, you have no clue what you did for us. It's just, it's humbling, it's neat, and just to understand that if you allow God to use you, you have no clue what he's gonna do. And probably by the time Heidi and I are in graves, we'll have no clue what impact we had. But that's what we're supposed to do, we're supposed to be used by God for his greater good.

[Aaron] Yeah, and I hope those that are listening right now, and that's exactly why I wanted to interview these people like you is because people don't know. They may think, what can I do? How can God use me? And you simply got up and said hi to us. Now, it's lots of laughter and tears after that, but still just that one act of obedience, the fruit from that is exactly what God's looking for from all of us and that's, I just love that you highlighted that. So, man, I'm loving this interview so far. Is this the one we want to go with? Okay. So what kind of barriers do you think keep believers from close fellowship with other believers? Because that's what we had. We grew in close fellowship with each other. What do you think it is that stops believers from making that deep connection and walking in obedience with fellowship with other believers?

[Heidi] Oh, man. Honestly, I'd have to say pride. A lot of times, especially with social media age, you want to give your best face, you want to show pictures of your kids perfectly dressed and their hair perfectly done and you'll move things out of the background of the picture just so that way the background looks nice. But I think, unfortunately, I think people don't want to share their stink. They don't want to say, we're going through this issue or I have this deep seated issue or they just don't want their stuff out there for people to judge or question how perfect they thought their life was. And I think it's uncomfortable for people to let down that wall and share who they really are and share what their marriage is really going through.

[Jennifer] Yeah, you guys have been really good at being an example of how to live transparently with other people, 'cause you guys were open with us and that opened the flood gates for us to be open with you guys because of that example. And I think it's so important for people to hear, how would you encourage someone to walk transparently with one another? How do you do that?

[Tom] I think there's another aspect to it too, is from a good friend who joined the group as well that said he was tired of bible studies with people that weren't like him. And not necessarily weren't like him as in same exact life experiences, but as I kind of said with Aaron, looked at him and thought I'd never hang out with that guy. He was always turned off by, well, I tried this group, I tried that group, it didn't work. All those guys were nerds or none of those guys played sports or things of that nature. And there's a constant, I get that part, but if you're open to it, you might find that, as I tell my kids, right now in school, you may, there may be differences and clicks or different things like that, but as you get older, those things really do melt away. And especially if it's a brother or sister in Christ, you have a really deep bond that many don't understand. But there's a part to it too, when you hang out with those who aren't like you. For instance, Aaron, when you and I were in the men's fellowship group together, gosh, you were obviously younger than me, but we were both vastly younger than anyone else in that room and just--

[Aaron] Yeah, I remember that.

[Tom] Stuff that we picked up from those guys who one was divorced, one was married, he was married but they were both from divorced families and kind of had a Brady Bunch type of union now. The things that I learned from that group, including on how not to talk to my wife and ended up actually causing some stress in my marriage when I told her how I shouldn't be talking to you, even though I have been, then all of a sudden she picked up on what a jerk I had been.

[Aaron] She's like, yeah, you shouldn't talk to me like that.

[Tom] Yeah, it was a total backfire move on my part. But it just, the things you learn from people when you continue to give it a shot and be open to it. If you go in with walls, you're gonna come out with walls. If you go in--

[Aaron] That's good--

[Tom] Being willing to hear or listen, I think everybody can find that community and like Heidi said, if you're willing to lower your walls and lower your pride, you'll find out everybody's just as jacked up as you are. It's just different levels, 'cause no marriage is perfect.

[Aaron] Oh, I love that. And it's like the, it's this idea that recognizing what we do have in common, which is Christ, and being okay with that being the thing that we connect on because that's what God wants anyway and being able to throw out those preferences of like, well, I only want to spend time with this kind of person, which is hard to find the right person. It's rare that we have that kind of relationship, right. So I love that. How have you two navigated being a part of fellowship with the body of Christ?

[Jennifer] And maybe how are you currently fellowshipping with other believers?

[Tom] I got nudged, so this one's mine. So we no longer attend a church where it's facilitated by the church. So we met via a group that was facilitated by the church. And to be honest, thank God for them, they made it easy, right. Childcare and a building and all those things. So that doesn't exist where we live anymore, and so, and we don't attend a church that really has that. So now it's become harder work. It's no longer the ease of high school, seeing your friends every day and then you become an adult and go to different colleges or go to different jobs. It takes work for those relationships, and so that's where we are now. It's a lot of work to continue this. And so there's an aspect of that that's more rewarding. There's also an aspect that's more frustrating. So we totally get the part where continuing in this type of ministry or this type of group is not easy, but it's so important. When we take breaks from it, I don't want to call it a toll because it sounds negative or like it's destructive, but the toll it takes on our marriage is seen. It's very easily seen in that we just don't vibe as well. A marriage becomes more difficult than it has to be when we're not in fellowship with others.

[Aaron] So even if it's not as easy as it was, you guys recognize that it's still a necessity and a vital part of your Christian faith is that you must be in fellowship, whatever that looks like.

[Tom] Yeah, there's something to it when people ask, I work with so many people who will ask like, how often do you and Heidi fight or what do you do this, or how do you handle this? And yeah, and I explain that to them. There's a part where you share life with others and these can be people who are non Christians. Just when you share life with others and share your experiences, your victories, your struggles, that's what we were created for. And again, if I'm talking to a non Christian, I don't have, I throw God in there, but there's an aspect for them too, that even if you're not a believer in Christ, if you're not fellowshipping with people who help you get better or can take some of the load off or even just share life with, you're missing something. And so, yeah, there's a definite need for us every day, if not at least once a week, like a marriage group that we have now, we have to do it or else there's just a hole and there's a window that--

[Aaron] So you're saying is it's just a basic, it's the way God created us as humans is we need deep human connection, we need deep human relationships and that we can't just walk autonomously. And then especially for the believer, we need Christian fellowship to be around other Christians to sharpen us, to grow us. That's what I'm hearing you say.

[Tom] Exactly what I'm saying--

[Aaron] Is that it's not something we can just, we can't just throw it out. Right, that's what, which is what a lot of Christians do. I use this word autonomous. A lot of believers are totally fine with autonomy because that seems easier. Like, oh, just, you can have what Heidi said. You can have this facade and long as you, let's be cordial and we'll be nice and all, we'll hug on Sundays, but then you're not allowed to know who I am, you're not allowed to see the dirt in my life, you're not allowed to call me out on anything, you're not allowed to know that the dark parts of me.

[Jennifer] How do we grow and mature if we're not letting people see who we are?

[Aaron] Well, we can't.

[Heidi] We don't.

[Aaron] That's the point is, I don't want to grow and therefore I don't tell anyone or show anyone who I am.

[Jennifer] But a marriage after God wants to grow.

[Aaron] Exactly.

[Jennifer] So a marriage after God's going to be doing this. You touched on a point about your church not facilitating that easy fellowship time currently. And so for people who are listening right now, what would you say is an action step for them to be an initiator in this, so that they're not waiting around, waiting for an invitation or waiting for it to be easy. What can someone do today? What can a couple do today to--

[Aaron] Be the starters--

[Jennifer] To be the starters of--

[Aaron] Be the initiator.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] Do what Tom did and get up and walk over and put his arm around us.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Tom] Yeah, I think the first and easy start for me would be at a church you're at, you obviously, if you don't, if you go in and out of that building and don't connect or talk to anybody, you're doing yourself and that body a disservice. So it'd be just connecting very simply with people at the church. Again, maybe somebody that you have, when you pick up your kids from childcare, obviously there's somewhere you can connect. There's so many spots to just start there. The other might be just friends in general. And Aaron, you brought up a point, the autonomy. There's something to it, right, where there's a couple of good friends of mine who I'm not as extreme as this, but literally don't like to talk to somebody. And it's funny though when you ask the question, well, what happens when you're out in public and there's a Christian connection of sorts, like somebody mentions something or you see somebody praying and somebody mentions it to you. There's an instant spark, there's an instant connection because out in the world when you find somebody who has that fearlessness of being able to say, yeah, I'm a Christian, or lives it out in front of you, there's a spark that you automatically have a bond. And so at your church, I think it's the easiest spot to have where it's reached out, somebody needs somebody or friends that you have now that you know are believers. Talk to them about getting together in a marriage study, whether it be one of your guys' books, whether it be something on DVD where there's a series going on, just starting somewhere or getting together on a bi-weekly basis just to hang, to chat. Because from that, as you guys know we used to do, we used to have dinners at the house, from that just hanging out, will spur those conversations and start something that you can then morph into, hey, why don't we start getting together on a weekly basis or bi-weekly basis.

[Aaron] So true. I'm gonna take one of your guys' strategies. You guys had an open invitation to us to come over to eat with you guys. And not everyone is gonna, like you said, not everyone takes you up, but you said, hey, come over. And we said yes. So there was times that we went over and you didn't even know we were coming over. We just, we just texted you when we were around the corner. Was like, hey, hope dinner's ready.

[Tom] You guys make it sound like that's the exception. That might've been the rule, that it was, you guys popped in a lot, and again, we loved it. It was not, we do it to people now. We'll just show up at their house with ice cream or something.

[Aaron] They're like, uh--

[Tom] Yeah, their faces, they're not happy to see us. And then it ends up being a half hour, hour visit and laughing and fun and then we leave, and we'll get a, hey, thanks for stopping by, even though we showed up at the door. There's been many wives who looked at me like, what are you doing here? So yeah, it's--

[Aaron] Yeah. I think it's just the, it's not common for people 'cause we think like, oh no, you don't want to bother, you don't want to invade someone's privacy. You don't want to. But I think that's what we're supposed to do as brothers and sisters. Now, we don't want to step over boundaries and be rude and be, but like actually go into, hey, I'm in the neighborhood, would you love, I'd love to bring you a coffee. Hey, I'm grabbing a doughnut, you want one? Or a breakfast sandwich or whatever it is, just to spark that. You guys were a great example of that, opening up your home to us, giving us an invitation to be over and actually following through with it and making a meal with us and making it a night. Like we would stay at your house until two o'clock in the morning sometimes.

[Woman] Sometimes we--

[Aaron] This was before kids.

[Woman] Yeah.

[Aaron] But yeah, I think that's a great idea. Just starting where you're at, looking around at you and saying, hey, there's a bunch of believers around me. I should not be hiding. There should be no reason that I can't go spark up a conversation and say, who are you? How can we know each other more?

[Jennifer] And in this chapter of the book, I share a story of when Heidi invited me over to her house for one of the first times that we would actually spend girl time together--

[Aaron] This is a good story, yeah.

[Jennifer] And I don't want to give too much away because I want them to read it, but I basically said I was busy and felt the conviction of the Lord prompt my heart to call you back, Heidi, and I had to apologize for lying and I did go over there. And so I just want to share that briefly because I think so many times, we do excuse ourselves or justify why we can't hang out or maybe we're afraid or maybe it's too uncomfortable. But I just want the people listening right now to know it is so worth it. It's worth it to get out of your comfort zone and it's worth it to build these friendships and these relationships with other believers because they will impact our lives for the better.

[Aaron] Yeah, just like you guys have impacted our life. And in what you're saying, Jennifer, it makes me think of this. How many times have I said, hey, why don't you call so and so and see if they want to hang out, and you say, no, they're doing this thing today or they have this--

[Jennifer] I give other people excuses.

[Aaron] And I tell them, I'm like, did they say that? And she's like, well, no. And I'm like, so they didn't tell you no? So I think sometimes when we feel that nudge, that Holy Spirit draw to reach out and to call or to connect with, and we say, no, they're probably this or they're probably that, and we say no for people before they say no. And to avoid that, to let the person say no.

[Tom] To this day, that's me and Heidi. I think one of the better compliments she was given, whether it was a compliment or not, was you're a spiritual nuisance, because she doesn't let, she won't let you off the hook.

[Jennifer] That's true.

[Tom] She'll keep coming--

[Aaron] It's true, Heidi's got a gift.

[Tom] It's truly a gift of God to her. It annoys the heck out of me sometimes. But especially when we're trying to be somewhere.

[Aaron] But look at the fruit in your life because of it.

[Tom] Yeah, exactly. So I have to balance that when I do get annoyed and remember how it's blessed me. But yeah, I mean, she's very good at this and doesn't, kind of tracks people down.

[Aaron] So cool.

[Jennifer] Awesome. Okay you guys, well, as we wrap up this awesome interview, in your own words, what is a marriage after God?

[Heidi] Honestly, I think a marriage after God is putting God first and not your spouse and not other people, not celebrities, not your own image, but putting God first in your marriage to bless yourself, bless your marriage, bless other people. Just really living for God and not for the world.

[Tom] What does that look like? I had a conversation with our daughter two days ago. We were driving back from somewhere and she says, so you love God first and then mommy and then us. And I said, yeah, it doesn't make sense, does it. And she says, no, it doesn't. Because one time I was a stupid dad and I answered the question honestly when she said, well, who's your favorite girl? And I answered mommy immediately. To an eight year old at the time, that was a really stupid answer on my part. But I mean, it was just not smart because it broke her heart and I had to try to come back and explain that to her because she's eight, she's not supposed to completely grasp that yet--

[Aaron] I don't have faith like that yet--

[Tom] But yes, sure, and a couple of days ago in the car, I said, it doesn't make sense and here's why. It's because God wants your focus on him. But in doing that, he opens you up to everything else and gives you a greater appreciation, gives you a greater understanding and gives you a greater love for other things. And so by mommy and daddy focusing on God first, it allows us to be better husband and wife to each other and allows us to be a better mommy and daddy to you. Even though a lot of times you probably don't think we're that great, that's what it does. And I said, and it's hard for you understand, I understand that, and you won't until you are married or have kids, but in the end, people have asked, why have we had such a great marriage. And it hasn't been perfect, but it's been the best decision I ever made in my life. And for a male to say that to another male, in our day and age is, Aaron, I'm sure you see it on people's faces when you do it. They look at you like you're crazy. And yeah, it's the absolute best thing I ever did in my life, and we just, if we focus on God first, right, though Sunday mornings you don't feel like getting up and going to church and you do and you walk into a sermon that's on marriage and you get, and God just talks to you there. It's putting him first whether you want to or not on that particular day. None of us are perfect. And then it just, everything else unlocks. Churches, I know I'm rambling. Churches know this fact. If they want to grow their church, they can get the wife, that's fine, and you'll get the kids maybe. But if you get the husband, you get the entire family and that's how you grow your church number, and that's a different topic, but again, if as a husband--

[Aaron] No, what you're saying is husbands need to be leading spiritually and setting the tone in their home. That's good.

[Tom] Yeah. Before you rudely cut me off, what I was saying is, if we as husbands lead, it's infectious. It doesn't always happen, but it's infectious. The wife then follows, then the kids then follow and it's a beautiful thing. And I've noticed for me, if I slip and I'm not focusing on God, my house slips. So long winded answer to your question is both of you focusing on God, it's funny how the rest just seems to, not easily sometimes, but it does, it falls into place.

[Aaron] Good. Thank you, that was really good.

[Jennifer] That's so good. Thank you guys so much for sharing with us today. We just want to invite everyone to take a moment to join us in prayer. Dear Lord, thank you for the gift of your body. Thank you for the gift of fellowship and friendship. May we be people who are motivated by love to reach out and be a friend to others. We pray we would have the courage and confidence to be people who welcome others in, who are transparent, who are there for others, who lift others up and who pray for others. Use our marriages to be an encouragement to other marriages. Use us as a team to bring you glory. Help us to never live in isolation. Help us to never be divided. We pray the enemy and we pray our own flesh wouldn't get it in the way of fellowship. May our desire to participate in your body increase even more. May the way we treat one another be a light and an example to the rest of the world. In Jesus' name. Amen.

[Aaron] Amen. So Tom and Heidi, we love you guys. We miss you guys.

[Tom] Thanks for having us.

[Aaron] We need to see you soon.

[Tom] Sincerely.

[Woman] Miss you guys.

[Aaron] And thank you so much for giving us some time today and in blessing everyone that's listening. So hey everyone that's listening, thank you so much for joining us on this sixth week of the series, and we look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Mar 20, 2019
MAG 05: Marriage Is Your First Ministry - Interview w/ Matt & Lisa Jacobson from Faithful Life podcast

Join the Marriage After God movement and grab a copy of our new book today.

In this episode, we interview Matt & Lisa Jacobson From and & Faithful Family podcast.

Here is a quote from our book Marriage After God

“Your marriage is the message you are preaching to others. The way you
and your spouse interact with each other reveals the gospel you

Dear Lord,
Thank you for creating marriage with such a significant purpose of revealing to the world your divine love. Please help us to make choices that reflect your love in the way we love one another. May we choose to walk in obedience. Thank you for your word which instructs us and shows us how we should walk in obedience. Please continue to give us wisdom and strength as we choose to walk in the Spirit and not our flesh. We pray we would make our marriage a priority. We pray we would gain a deeper understanding of how our marriage is our first ministry and the impact we have in each other’s lives and in this world, just by remaining faithful to your word. If our priorities are ever out of order or if we are not unified please help us to change course. Constantly direct our hearts to align with yours. May our marriage always be in a place where you can use us as a symbol to point others to you and may you be glorified.
In Jesus’ name, amen!

[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith of Marriage after God.

[Lisa] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

[Aaron] And today we're in part five of the Marriage after God series, and we're gonna be talking with Matt and Lisa Jacobsen about marriage being your first ministry.

[Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage after God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.

[Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife.

[Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution.

[Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade.

[Aaron] And so far, we have four young children.

[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media.

[Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day.

[Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life,

[Aaron] Love.

[Jennifer] And power

[Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God.

[Jennifer] Together.

[Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.

[Jennifer] This is marriage after God.

[Aaron] Hey, thanks for joining us on week five of this series that we're doing. I hope you're enjoying it. You're definitely going to enjoy today's guests. But before we move on, as always, we want to invite you to leave a review. Those reviews help the podcast get seen by new audiences. So, if you've been enjoying the content, we'd love a star rating, which is the easiest way to do it, all you gotta do is tap a star in the app. And if you really, really want to and have time, leaving us a text review would be awesome. We read every single one of 'em, and we love them, so thank you for that.

[Jennifer] Another way you can support this podcast--

[Aaron] So today on this episode, we're gonna be talking about content from chapter five of our book, Marriage after God. And the chapter's titled, "Your First Ministry." and we thought, what better way to talk about this chapter than to talk with our pastors and ask them who inspired us and showed us what it looked like to recognize our marriage as ministry. And now we actually reference them and talk about them in this chapter, and so today we have Matt and Lisa Jacobson with us, welcome.

[Lisa] Hey, nice to be here.

[Matt] Awesome to be here, you bet.

[Aaron] Yeah, and we're in our garage, sitting on our couches. And today we're gonna be talking about this topic. But before we talk about that, why don't you introduce to the audience, just in case they don't know you guys, who you are, children, marriage, all that.

[Matt] Okay, well, Matt Jacobsen, and this is my lovely woman.

[Lisa] Hey, hello.

[Matt] Lisa, and so we've been married for 26 years. We have eight kids between the ages of 12 and about 25.

[Lisa] Yup.

[Matt] Right, and there are four of them are out of the house and moved on. And so, what keeps us busy when we're not just hanging out and kissing in a dark corner somewhere.

[Lisa] That's right. We also, we do homeschool and we do a lot of work with our kids. Our kids help us out with what we do at home and also in our ministry.

[Matt] And so, speaking of ministries. So, my website is

[Lisa] And I'm Lisa with

[Matt] And so that is a writing ministry that speaks to marriage, parenting, church, and culture. Biblical perspective on those things. And so, that comprises a lot of what takes up our time in a given week. And then, of course, we're the pastors of a small local fellowship as well.

[Aaron] Yeah, it's our fellowship.

[Matt] That's right.

[Aaron] You're our pastors. And we love you guys. And by the way, if everyone listening didn't hear what those were, that's and You guys should definitely check them out. And why don't you tell them about your newest podcast that you guys just launched?

[Matt] Awesome, okay. Well, the name of that podcast is Faithful Life. And it's essentially a podcast that is pursuing the and exploring the topic of what does it mean to live as a biblical Christian. There are a lot of people in the world, lot of Christians, people who identify as Christians, who are living a life that is really separate or tangential to the Bible. And really, if you're going to be a biblical Christian, you've gotta know what the Bible says about these various aspects of life: marriage, parenting, how we're to live within church community and then how we're to interact with the culture. And so, that's the focus of the podcast, faithful--

[Lisa] With a lot of emphasis on practical ways to do that, sometimes we kinda know in our heads what the right thing to do is, or what we believe the Bible says, but then how does that look in our day-to-day life, and that's something that matt and I really have a passion for is just connecting those two things.

[Matt] And a little bit of experience. It's only been, what, 26 years you've been married and walking with the Lord and learning through all of the eight children.

[Aaron] So we just want everyone to check out their podcast; it's called Faithful Life. And you're gonna love it. Just search for it wherever you listen to podcasts. So, let's get into the icebreaker question. And this is how we start all the episodes. It's just a fun question. How does your spouse like their coffee and what does that say about them?

[Lisa] Okay, I get to go first on this one. Because everybody that knows Matt Jacobson well knows that he likes his coffee black, but, even more importantly, he likes it burning hot so that it burns a hole in your tongue, so he, if--

[Matt] And you better not put it in a cold cup.

[Lisa] Right, the best way to show love to Matt Jacobson is to heat up the cup first and then pour his coffee into it.

[Matt] Wow, that's one of the ways over the years you've shown love to me. But right, so anyway--

[Lisa] In the coffee--

[Matt] No, that's right in the coffee, in the realm of coffee. And Lisa takes her coffee with a teaspoon of sugar and cream and--

[Lisa] That's right, I like it a little sweet.

[Matt] She likes it a little sweet, that's right.

[Aaron] And it's just like her character too. Little sweet.

[Matt] And I love making coffee for her; I do. In the morning, I love making coffee. I love bringing her a cup of coffee in the morning.

[Jennifer] And you guys do coffee as a family a lot, so can you just share a little bit about that 'cause I just love that.

[Matt] Okay, so, why don't you tell how we've corrupted our young children?

[Lisa] Well, we started off in our marriage. We started each day with having coffee. Matt would make a coffee tray for him and I, and we would sit and have coffee together. And then as each child came along, we then slowly incorporated them into this special time until it became something our whole family just loves and so even our older kids when they come home for the holidays or different vacations, they'll come and that's the thing they look forward to most is having our time together over a pot of coffee. And we just talk about what we're thinking about, what's going on in our world, and it's just a really close family time.

[Matt] And you know, oh, sorry. That whole process of incorporating the kids into it. It's kind of funny because it's really a metaphor, or an example, if you will, of what happens in your family. Over time, we're very strict with the older kids. I don't even remember when we began allowing them to have coffee.

Including them. I don't even remember, do you remember how old they were?

[Lisa] No.

[Matt] But, as time went on, the younger kids just get to start earlier and earlier. And I think we started, did Hawkin have his first?

[Lisa] He was about seven or eight maybe--

[Aaron] It was a bottle right?

[Lisa] When he had his first cup of coffee.

[Matt] That's right.

[Lisa] A very, very tiny cup of coffee, mostly milk.

[Jennifer] Mostly milk, yeah.

[Matt] Yeah, right, and so now we're going, okay, so.

[Lisa] Almost because their dad's kind of soft on the issue.

[Matt] I am; I am.

[Jennifer] I was just gonna say, I follow Lisa on Instagram, and I love watching your stories because you'll post about it every once in a while of just your guys' family time around that, and it's beautiful and you can just tell, just from that short glimpse that you give the rest of us that it's a really beautiful time that you're cultivating in your family.

[Matt] And in some senses, like you see the snapshot, and it is awesome, it really is. But, it's just so normal, a part of life, and a wonderful life is built on a lot of normal moments that you just string together over time.

[Jennifer] Mm-hmm, it's true, yeah, it's good.

[Matt] And so, yeah.

[Aaron] Yeah, there's the big one-offs that are memorable, but then there's the, it's the everyday things that shape who we are, it's all those habits that we have and those routines. I love that. Why don't you share the quote from the chapter? And then we'll just start asking questions.

[Jennifer] Okay, so this is from chapter five of Marriage after God. "Your marriage is the message you are preaching to other, "the way you and your spouse interact with each other "reveals the gospel you believe."

[Aaron] Matt and Lisa, how would you that that is true in what you guys have experienced, because it's something that you've definitely not only shown us through your own marriage, but also directly have shown us in ours in saying hey, you can't expect to have this ministry over here if your home doesn't match. So could you give me some insight on how this quote plays out in real life?

[Matt] Well, one of the things that you just naturally see in life is you see people in ministry and what's the big joke in America, at least it used to be, I don't know if it still is, who are the worst kids in church? The PKs, the preacher's kids, right? And so, that is so antithetical to how we're called to live in the word of God because we are called ambassadors. That means that we are representatives of the kingdom of God on earth. We bear the name of Christ, and we're his representatives. And how is it possible that you have this ministry or you have this public presence, and then it's not true in your own personal life. You wanna tell somebody about the wonderful truths of Scripture. And you wanna tell somebody the gospel and explain to them how they can have a wonderful relationship with the Lord. And then you don't have, you're not living those wonderful relationships in your family. I know that we had seen a lot of this early on. And we were even involved in a particular church, years and years ago, they were lovely people but focused just on evangelism and kinda lost the relationships with their kids over time. We just saw--

[Lisa] And in their marriage.

[Matt] This family's disintegrating. And the marriage is. Then we though, you know what, the life that we're called to as believers is much more holistic than that. And the truths of the gospel are supposed to be manifest in our lives. And if I could just say one more thing. I know you've got a lot to say, too. You see in the instructions for church leadership in the book of 1 Timothy, one of the principal requirements of anybody in ministry and this is serving as an elder or a deacon within the church.

[Aaron] Yes, specific position.

[Matt] One of the principal requirements is that you've demonstrated that your children have yielded hearts to you. You're governing your family well. You're leading your family well. There's a sense of order and peace in your home. So God wants it to be true at home before we go out to represent him to the world.

[Aaron] And what does Paul tell Timothy, he says how can you presume to manage the household of God if you can't manage your own home, which is how he, after all that teaching, he says that it doesn't make sense.

[Matt] Yeah.

[Lisa] And I think that Matt's kind of big picture guy. And I'm more of what does that look like in my day kind of person. And one thing I had noticed that in Scripture, when it talks about how we are to be towards one another, how we're to be, to be loving, patient, kind. And we apply all of those things to out there. So, just an example: I go to the grocery store, and the cashier's taking forever to get me through the line. And she apologizes, but I've read the Bible, so I'm going to be, oh it's fine, I'll wait. I understand you're trying your hardest, and we'll get through here because I'm being patient, and I'm being kind. And then I go home, and I have a different response when it takes Matt forever to come out and help me bring in the groceries in the house. Or, because I'll be snippin' at him--

[Matt] Has that ever happened, like even one time in our marriage?

[Lisa] Like I wait for you? Do you really wanna bring that up?

[Aaron] Everyone listening was like that was just today.

[Lisa] So, but it really struck home to me that all those things that we think apply to out there to strangers or maybe to friends. It somehow, or maybe there's a disconnect, to actually sometimes the hardest person, sometimes, is actually the person your married to.

[Jennifer] I was just gonna say, thinking about our own marriage. I used to do this thing where I would always be upbeat and positive and smiley with everyone. And then I'd come home and immediately my countenance would change, and Aaron--

[Aaron] I finally called you out on it, I was like--

[Jennifer] Yeah, 'cause Aaron would be like--

[Aaron] Why do they get the smiles and then I get this?

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] What is this?

[Jennifer] And then I remember specifically him saying, I want your best. And I had to figure it out. I had to figure out why I was doing that and check my flesh on it really.

[Aaron] Well, I think there's a default position of, well, I have you, therefore you should deal with who I actually wanna be today, and everyone else has to, I want them to see the best part of me. It's almost like it's just totally backwards. And it's actually lying.

[Matt] Well, the harsh reality of the circumstance is who you actually are in terms of your personal character is who you are when the doors are shut and you're letting your hair down, so to speak, and you're just being your natural self with the people where the consequences might not be as immediate or severe as they might be if you do this in public. And so, that's the reality of who we are. And so, it's important to take stock on those things. How am I with the people that I'm closest to because those are the people that we tend to take for granted and those are the circumstances that we tend to be a little less guarded.

[Aaron] Now that you're saying that, I'm thinking, it's actually probably infinitely less damaging to be that kind of person in public, when people they may be offended for the moment, but they're gonna forget your face in like eight seconds 'cause they don't live with you than the person that we literally spend hours and hours a day and our lifetime with: our children, our spouse. We sacrifice the main thing for the non-main thing.

[Matt] Totally, and that's of course humanly speaking, in terms of the cost, over the long-term.

[Aaron] Yeah, publicly.

[Matt] But relative to the Lord's perspective on these relations, he wants it to be the same everywhere.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Matt] He wants us to be loving and in the spirit everywhere with the people, especially close to us, but also with everybody else that we're interacting with.

[Aaron] Or repentant if we're not.

[Jennifer] Yeah, yeah, there is grace


[Aaron] Which changes us.

[Matt] Well, you know what, you brought up the R word: repentance. And that is such an important word and such an abused word in our Christian religious world because repentance has a specific meaning. It's a word that has a definition. And we cut ourselves so much slack and we dip back into the same sins over and, how about this, just this sin we're talking about here where we're not being kind to our spouse, but we've got it for everybody else. And, oh, I'm sorry I shouldn't have done that. Please forgive me. And Lord, I was unkind to my wife, please forgive me. I should have been more kind. And then we go on our day, and then I do it again. And then I do it again. Have I repented if I just keep walking in that same sin?

[Aaron] No, you've apologized.

[Matt] I've apologized, right?

[Aaron] You're sorry for being--

[Matt] Because to repent means I used to do that, and now I'm doing this. It means to turn from, that's the definition of the word. And it's such a good word for Christians, all of us, to really wrestle with, and say, you know what, have I really repented and forsaken that sin? Because that's what it means to walk as God would have us as a couple and not to just keep going back, over and over and over again.

[Aaron] I think of this quote. I'm not gonna say who said it, but someone in our family used to say, "If you were sorry, you wouldn't have done it." That's kind of the idea; we say sorry over and over and over again. But in reality, our heart hasn't changed. We're just allowing something, whether we're intentionally doing something. We're not intentionally walking in the spirit, so therefore, we're defaulting to walking in the flesh, and we haven't repented of anything. This is something that I had to recognize in my life with certain sin in my life was I was sorry, but usually I was sorry for the shame or the regret or being caught or the remorse I see in your face or the pain I've caused you, Jennifer, but I'd never had been sorry for my sin which is what leads to repentance, and then I change and walk in that. So thanks for bringing that clarity.

[Matt] Yeah, absolutely. And so to come full circle on your question, what does it mean to have a marriage that is reflecting the gospel? Well, if you have a marriage that is the kind of marriage that someone else is interested in, then you're not creating this incredible disconnect in the mind of the person that you're sharing the gospel with because what are you inviting them to? If the gospel hasn't affected and hasn't made your marriage beautiful, what are you inviting them to? Here we are married, and we have a bad, bickering, difficult, challenging marriage, and I'm out there telling somebody that Jesus loves them and died for them. It's so critical 'cause as we, and I know you guys have talked about on your podcast and certainly in your book, that your marriage is the gospel you're preaching, that is the gospel you're preaching. And the power of your message will not be one iota stronger or more influential than is the meaning and the love and the strength of your marriage relationship.

[Jennifer] That's so good. I hope everyone hits rewind and just listens to that a few times.

[Aaron] Yeah, and let's take marriage out of the picture, just in the Christian individual's life. If the gospel's not true in our life, so for me, when I was walking in my addiction to pornography, and I wasn't repentant of it, I thought I was, I was sorry for it; I was sorry for what it did to me, but I wasn't truly repentant of it. I could never tell someone that Christ came to bring freedom, which is what the Bible teaches us, that's the fruit of the gospel.

[Matt] There you go.

[Aaron] Because I couldn't walk in freedom. Like you said, I'm literally showing them, like, hey, here's God, he's awesome--

[Jennifer] He's powerless.

[Aaron] He's powerless.

[Jennifer] In my life.


[Aaron] He can't, and this isn't about just all of the sudden everything being healed and perfect and great, but this is definitely the truth of freedom from sin and death, which is what the Bible teaches, which is what Christ came to destroy. He took the power away from it.

[Matt] Absolutely.

[Aaron] But he doesn't have that in my life. Therefore, you should love God and believe in Jesus, but he can't actually do anything for the core of who you are. He can't change your physical situation or your spiritual situation, but, you know what, he's the thing you should believe in. It just doesn't make any sense.

[Matt] No, it doesn't. We just need to remember that even if we're not saying anything, even if we're not on the street corner, preaching the gospel. We're preaching a sermon every time we walk out the door together. We're preaching a sermon. We're literally saying, this is what it means to be a Christian man and a Christian woman. Whether you mean to or not, you're preaching a sermon. The question is, what's the message that you're giving other people?

[Jennifer] And how, can you explain, just for those people listening, how are they giving that message to other people?

[Matt] It tends to be if you're living in a town and you've got your immediate circle and then you've got your circle of influence, the people you interact with, the people at the bank, the people at the gas station, the people at the grocery store, they know, over the course of time, they know whether you're a Christian or not. It just becomes evident that that is who you are. People probably don't realize it, but as somebody who identifies as a Christian, people watch you a little closer. They tend to want to just scrutinize you a little bit, or when we're at a restaurant.

[Lisa] I was gonna say, what I was thinking about was how many times we've been in an airplane, traveling together, in a restaurant together, we have been stopped so many times by people we didn't even realize were watching us, someone who's serving us or the flight attendant, and said, you know, you two are just such a loving couple. And they could just see the way we were just interacting. And so people do notice that. And often times, especially at a restaurant, they'll see that we've prayed, so they also know that we're believers. And we've had a lot of opportunities to share the gospel with those people just even based on their observation of us.

[Aaron] Well, it's uncommon. It's uncommon; it's normal to have cold relationships and being on the phones. It's uncommon to see engagement and true infatuation and adoration or--

[Lisa] Yeah, like the last time we were on a flight, we had a flight attendant come to us at the end of the flight, it was a long flight. And she said, "You know, the other flight attendants and I "were all talking about you two." Really? We're not that interesting.

[Matt] Well, we were kissing, I mean. We were getting along kissing.

[Lisa] That's right; that's right. And they were just observing how we were with each other, and how cute it was and thought we were maybe somewhat newly married. And I'm like, "Oh, no, we've been married 26 years, "and we have eight kids." Like, no way, yeah, really.

[Aaron] And you're still in love?

[Lisa] Yeah, yeah, it was really astonishing.

[Matt] And you mentioned something about praying in a restaurant. And I know a lot of people listening probably do. It's probably less common these days than it has been in the past, but a lot of people still bow their heads and pray in a restaurant. Personally, I love doing that. I love just the witness: I'm a Christian, and I'm gonna give God thanks for this food. So I like doing that. But if you're somebody out there who does that, can I just encourage you to leave a fat, hog tip? Okay, because--

[Lisa] It's like a bonus.

[Aaron] It is a bonus.

[Matt] Because you've literally hoisted your flag at the table, I'm a Christian, and so, leave a great taste in your waiter's or server's mouth.

[Aaron] It's a little sacrifice.

[Matt] It's so small, yeah, so small. So small, but it's a good testimony, too. Just to say, you know what, love the Lord, and oh, by the way, God bless you.

[Aaron] Going back to the, I think that's a great little bit of advice of how to spread the love of God. Like, hey, we love God and we just wanted to bless you, thank you--

[Matt] And certainly if it's a place that you go back more than once.

[Jennifer] Yeah, that's true.

[Aaron] Oh yeah!

[Matt] You have struck up, well you've created an opportunity to strike up a conversation with the person because they're, well, first of all, they're business people, right? They wanna make money. So they wanna serve you well, and it's just an opportunity, that's all. Just an opportunity, if you're going to pray, then by all means, please don't complain about the food.

[Aaron] I was gonna say that actually. There's certain Christiany things that we do, maybe we were raised that way, and we just pray. We're Christians, we love God, we pray. But then, let's say we're bickering at the table, or we are being super rude to the waiters, or our kids are throwing food on the floor and silverware. That is a part of our witness.

[Lisa] It is.

[Aaron] How we are. And they're like, you did the thing that I thought you were gonna do. They're looking for us to fail.

[Jennifer] To fail, right.

[Aaron] Doesn't mean we're not gonna fail, but the majority of the time, our hearts should be aware of how we're being, which goes back to that marriage being your ministry. You guys had this awesome, oh, people noticed us, and they stopped us and said thank you. We've had the other side of it. And no one's actually confronted us and saw us fighting, but we've had people message us after the fact. We've mentioned this a few times. And like, "Hey, we saw you in the store. "I didn't stop and say hi, but just wanted to say hi." And they'd message us on Instagram. And then we were like, "Oh my gosh, I think we were, were we fighting?"

[Jennifer] This was a long time ago; we've gotten better since then.

This was a long time ago.

[Aaron] It made us aware, man, like, well, A, we have a social media presence, but it doesn't matter if you do. Like if you're a Christian, there's people that know you. You have friends, you have neighbors, you have, and people that may not know you personally, they're gonna see you regularly in your small town, or big town, I guess, because you frequent the same places. What kind of fragrance as a couple and as Christians do we give in this world where we say one thing and act a different way? That's literally what hypocrisy is. We talk about this, actually, in this chapter. We talk about, we're gonna ask you a question in a second, another question, but it doesn't make any sense if we're trying to minister in other ways, and then in the home, there is no real ministry happening. And so, question for you guys is are marriages being a ministry, and being our first ministry, because it's our first one another, our closest neighbor, we always like to say is our spouse and then our kids and everyone else. Are there marriages that are exempt from this? Well, this husband, he's a minister, and he doesn't actually have time to be focused on his family. Or a wife that's doing this thing over here for God, and she doesn't have time to serve her home and children. Are there marriages that are exempt from this? Why or why not?

[Lisa] I don't know that there are exemptions in that sense although Matt might want to address that, but what that's come to mind, I do have many women write me who are in a marriage situation where the spouse is not a believer or at least not walking with God. And I know that that's a greater challenge, and I wouldn't want to put undue burden on that couple, especially the one that's trying to be faithful, and the other is not walking that way. There has to be grace for that, and the one person has to, you know, scripture tells us to keep quiet and just keep shining the light of Christ in their home. But I also wouldn't want to feel like, oh, I can't minister to others now because my spouse is not walking in truth right now.

[Matt] And the way I would look at that is the Bible teaches us what is normal and how we are to walk as normal Christians in this world. And when it comes to marriage, what's normal is the way Jesus loves the church, his bride. That's how we're supposed to love our bride. That's normal. And that instruction, love your wife as Christ loved the church, that's not a special instruction for somebody who happens to be in the public eye. That is an instruction for absolutely every Christian man, every man who stands up and says, I follow Lord; I have committed my life to Christ. I have repented of my sin, and I'm a Christian. Every man who has said that should have a wife who says, I'm the most cherished woman I know. And no man is exempt from that. And so, here's the thing, if a church lays claim to being full of godly men, then there's one thing you know for sure, it's full of cherished wives. You cannot have one without the other. You cannot be a godly man and not cherish your wife. And so in that sense, I would say nobody's exempt from this, but, of course, we live in a broken world with lots of relationships and circumstances, and people have struggled. And God has grace for those things. But in those circumstances, the person, whatever they are, wherever they fall on the spectrum, difficult and virtually sad and very challenging to not that bad, wherever they are in the spectrum, their job is to draw near to God and walk as closely to God as he wants them, as he desires them to, and to seek them in those circumstances. But I appreciate you bringing that up because there are lot of people, lots of wives, lots of husbands, a husband called us recently. His wife left, he's got, I think they've got five kids. One of the kids has Down's Syndrome, and the wife's just like, "I'm done." And she left, and he didn't want her to leave, he tried to love her right up through, for several years, up to point where she left. He himself has remained faithful and has a ministry even though she's left, so it's true, it's not that you don't have a ministry. It's just that God provides his standards and principles and requirements for Christian men, for Christian wives, and for marriage. And then sin comes in and everything else is an exception to the rule, but the rule is every man is to cherish his wife in the way Jesus Christ loves the church.

[Aaron] So, I do appreciate Lisa that you brought that up, too, because I'm sure that we have people that listen, and one of the spouses is not walking, is not a believer, and we get, praise God, he gives provision for this in his word, in 1 Peter, he shows, it's funny because it's to the wife, it's almost like he knew that men were gonna be more prone to this, not being faithful, which is sad, but it's true. But even then I think, you're right, that it doesn't mean they can't have ministry outside of the home because their marriage isn't in order correctly faith wise, but that doesn't mean that their first ministry still isn't their spouse. Like you said, they still have a call, the wife or the husband, to serve and love their spouse the way the Bible has called them to, faithfully, whether they receive it or not, of course. And that's also, I don't wanna say qualifies, I don't know if that's the right word, but, it still prepares them to do ministry outside their home because it's in order. Instead of, I'm not going to love my husband or my wife like this because they're treating me this way, but I am gonna go love over here, that's not gonna produce the kind of fruit that God's looking for. But I did appreciate that. I think it's totally relevant to recognize that there are these non-ideal marriages.

[Matt] You know, and one of the things that might be important to mention here is wherever you are on the spectrum: you have a spectacular marriage all the way to it's terrible. We tend to fall into this wrong thought process that goes something like this: you're walking in sin; therefore, I can't help being the way I am.

[Lisa] Oh, now, that's a good point.

[Matt] And the fact of the matter is is the way you act has nothing to do with my capacity as a believer to walk in holiness.

[Lisa] Right, no that's--

[Matt] And we kinda cut ourselves a little slack there, don't we? 'Cause if you're a certain way, well then that gives me license to be another way in response--

[Aaron] Yeah, if you only respected me, I would treat you or love you as Christ loves the church.

[Matt] That's right, and every one of us has the capacity according to the word of God to walk in holiness, irrespective of how our spouse is walking. Now we certainly make it easier, right? If we're walking in holiness for the other person. But, we can't blame our distance from God on how someone else has chosen to act.

[Aaron] Amen.

[Jennifer] Taking a look into your guys' marriage. You know, you've been married quite a while. So go back to the beginning. Was there a learning curve in your guys' relationship on how to love and respect each other and cherish each other in that?

[Matt] OH, absolutely. I was the most loving husband in the world. The only problem--

[Aaron] That's a real laugh, by the way.

[Matt] The only--

[Lisa] Revisionist history, I think that's what it's--

[Matt] The only problem with it is I was loving Lisa in the way that said love to me.

[Lisa] Oh, that's true.

[Matt] We'd like to tell the story, in fact, we tell it on our own podcast. We just have this crazy story where I literally am superman husband, okay? I am helping out with everything.

[Lisa] It's our first year of marriage.

[Matt] First year of marriage. I am helping out with everything. I am helping with, not the laundry, you wouldn't let me touch the laundry 'cause she said, nope, that's mine; I will do the laundry. Everything else, the vacuuming, folding the laundry.

[Lisa] Cleaning the bathrooms.

[Matt] Cleaning the bathrooms, everything else, the dishes, everything, I'm helping, I'm helping. I'm doing it all, and I'm thinking--

[Lisa] And I'm getting madder and madder and--

[Matt] And she's over in the kitchen. And there's the flames, you know, the ones coming out of her eyes, are visible from across the room, and I--

[Aaron] Although I have never seen Lisa angry before, so I couldn't--

[Lisa] Oh, I'm capable.

[Matt] And I thought, what is wrong with this woman? You can't find five guys in the entire state of Oregon that do the things that I do with a willing heart, and I'm trying to bless you, you're just, there's nothing that will make you happy. You can't be blessed; I don't know what your problem is. And so, she just takes the towel, and she almost busts a dish on me as she sets the plate down on the counter. And then she takes the towel and throws it on the counter.

[Lisa] Thank you.

[Matt] And I'm going, what in the world. She turns to me, and she goes, "I just don't know why you don't love me."

[Lisa] True story.

[Aaron] What's happening?

[Matt] And I'm going, okay, am I losing my mind here? And I'm going, you've gotta be kid, you've literally got to be kidding me.

[Lisa] So my thinking is I can vacuum, I can clean the bathrooms, anybody can do that. But there's only one guy in my life that can take me out and spend some time with me and listen to my thoughts.

[Aaron] Look in my eyes--

[Lisa] Yes!

[Aaron] And talk to me.

[Lisa] And so he could just feel my frustration over time. So, the more frustrated he would feel--

[Matt] I would try harder.

[Lisa] The more he'd vacuum.

[Matt] I'd do more!

[Lisa] And I'm just like, put the stupid vacuum down. I just want to spend time with yo.

[Matt] So I'm going, wow, that's easy.

[Lisa] Yeah.

[Matt] Who knew love was that easy? So in our case, it was just me taking the initiative to say, okay, we're gonna go out at such-and-such a day, and it didn't matter what it was. We'd go for a walk; we could go have a cup of coffee. And I mean, at any time you as a husband tell your wife, "Hey, I just wanna spend some time with you." You can turn one cup of coffee into an awesome date. You really can.

[Lisa] It doesn't take much.

[Matt] It doesn't take much. You talk about learning curve, absolutely we had to learn each other and what was important to you and what was important to me and this is so true in absolutely every area of marriage. For instance, we've given you the for instance in terms of the learning curve, but in terms of discovering what it is your spouse is interested in, what they like, what's important to them. There's a very, very interesting way of finding out.

[Aaron] You ask.

[Matt] You ask a question! Yeah, yeah, and it's such a great thing to do because you know what happens when I turn to you and I ask you a question about you.

[Lisa] Yeah.

[Matt] Who doesn't like talking about themselves? Who doesn't like being known and explored and discovered. Who doesn't like someone being interested in them. So that's what we do when we turn to our spouse and say, okay, I wanna ask you a question. I wanna ask you what are three things that I can do that would make you feel loved? So that's just the normal stuff of marriage. But you know what? And you can even take it right into the subject of sex. And you can say, what are things that you enjoy when we come together physically? What are some of those things? Because, you know what, we tend to love the other person with the things that we want.

[Lisa] I think that sometimes people boil this down to love languages, which is interesting and helpful. But what we're talking about is so much more than a love language, for one thing, those things change over time. It depends when the season when we had four kids, five and under, the vacuum really helped a lot, and I had a, not that I still didn't want to go out,

[Aaron] Right, in that season, that was much more loving.

[Lisa] Yeah, it was loving; it did mean a lot.

[Matt] And physical touch when we had five kids. What would the age's spread have been with our five kids?

[Lisa] Yeah, six and under.

[Matt] Five kids six and under. Physical touch was less important to her in those years.

[Lisa] Imagine that.

[Matt] You know? She's got kids.

You got enough of that.

[Jennifer] Her tank is full.

[Matt] Yeah, I'm touching 24/7, exactly. Right, so it does change over time.

[Lisa] So instead of thinking of it as big subjects of love language, think of it as who you are as a person and where are you at today, where are you at in this season, where are you at in your life right now. And that involves that continual seeking and pursuing and asking.

[Jennifer] So continual even after 26 years. Like you guys are still asking?

[Matt] Absolutely.

[Aaron] You have gotten there yet?

[Matt] Absolutely.

[Aaron] You haven't gotten to the--

[Matt] No, we're seeking each other all the time. And you know what?

[Jennifer] And it's fun, right?

[Lisa] It is.

[Matt] It is fun, absolutely fun. And the thing is, if you love the other person, it's not a burden to do it. You actually want to know where they're at. You wanna know where their heart is at.

[Lisa] And I think it can even be in somewhat negative things like say, I notice something triggers Matt into a bad mood or just like a dark, you know. And it used to be, when we were younger, that would just like, oh, fine, if you're gonna be in a bad mood, then I'll just stay away from you. I'm not saying those things, but that was my basic attitude. And I feel like over the years, now, let's say something like that happens, which it does, then I can say, I noticed, like something happened, you know, we had a good start today, and then something kind of went sideways. You wanna tell me about that? Did something happen or did I say something? Not in a defensive way, but just really, we've had some really good conversations about that. He'd go, "You know, I wasn't aware of that." Sometimes even going back to your childhood. As a child, my mom treated me a certain way, so now whenever I hear this phrase, it takes me back to a time when I didn't feel cared for.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Lisa] And you're thinking, oh, well, I didn't mean to

[Aaron] I know how it feels.

[Lisa] communicate that I didn't care for you. But I can see that that would translate to that. And now I know, and I can be more mindful of that.

[Aaron] And lovingly. Just the loving hey, is everything okay? Not because you're bothered by it.

[Lisa] Yes.

[Aaron] But because you're concerned for it.

[Lisa] Yes.

[Aaron] Which then, I'm sure, Matt, you would experience. There's been times that I don't even know why I'm brooding. It just takes a moment to be checked on it. And then I'm like, oh, I actually don't know why I'm brooding right now; I actually do feel irritated. I don't know why. Which it totally could be a hormonal thing, it could be a something I ate, and maybe there's something spiritual going on that we need to be praying through, but that approach of not taking it personally because we do that. Why are you doing this around me? I was in a great mood, now you just brought me down. But rather, helper, but for each, an actual concern. Hey, is everything alright? That was a really good bit of advice. I think everyone listening is gonna be loving these tips because this is 26 years of you guys learning this. We're only 12 in, what is that? We're not even half.

[Matt] It'll go quick; it'll go quick.

[Aaron] We are halfway to the kids, though.

[Matt] Oh, that's right.

[Lisa] Yeah.

[Matt] And you got started earlier than we did.

[Aaron] We got started earlier, so we might bypass you

So you guys'll

[Matt] Outpace us, yeah, that's right. But then there's adoption, we can stay ahead of 'em.

[Aaron] It's true, that's true. So I'm loving these tips. And it all plays back into this. Right now, you're talking about how you guys minister to each other. Loving each other, cultivating intimacy, the communication, the strong bond which allows us, then, it frees us to be more able to minister outside the home. Not that it can't happen, but when you guys are so connected, so close, there's more freedom, and less internal turmoil.

[Matt] I might even say it a little differently. I would say what it does is it authenticates the message.

[Aaron] That's perfect.

[Matt] And you know, we see this principle, well not just principle, we see this exact teaching in the high priestly prayer that Jesus prays in John 17 where he's saying, their unity, let them be one as we are one, Jesus is praying. Let them, his followers, those who come to Christ, who come to a repentance and become the children of God. Let them be one as we are one that the world might believe that you have sent me. The unity that we have, the oneness that we have is the authentication of the message of Christ that he came from the Father. And so, that's so true in the church as a whole, and it's absolutely true in marriage. When we're walking in love, when we're walking in unity, when we're exuding that, where we go through life, it authenticates the message when we do speak the truth of the gospel to someone.

[Lisa] And not just out there, but in our own homes, to our kids.

[Matt] Oh, that's just so true.

[Lisa] When your kids are little, you can kinda get away with it, or at least you think you are.

[Aaron] We think we think we are.

[Lisa] Believe me, as they get older, they'll tell the world what it's really like at home. They'll tell their friends.

[Matt] They do.

[Lisa] I'm just saying because it's reality. And the opposite is true, too, that if you are loving each other, it's a witness to them, it's an encouragement to them. Our kids all want to get married. They want to have that kind of marriage. And that's a huge blessing. One of the things that we recently asked one of our older daughters, who's in her twenties. I think it was a Father's Day thing. What do you like most about your dad? She said that, "He loves Mom so well." And it was such a beautiful testimony that yeah, they're watching, they know whether you have loved each other in those quiet moments.

[Aaron] Well, when you think about it, almost everyone probably listening, when they look back and they think about their home and how they were raised, I'm sure a lot of them, being raised in Christian homes or not, maybe heard the Bible, but did they see it? Did they see the Bible; did they see the gospel? They don't remember what they ate. They don't remember all the places they've been. But they definitely remember how Mom and Dad were together. They definitely remember how Mom and Dad treated them. And that's where the ministry in our home comes in. 'Cause I've told Jennifer this. I said, Jennifer, all of these things that we have, Unveiled Wife, Husband Revolution, our podcast. I said all of that means absolutely nothing if my kids don't know the Lord. And so, not just our ministry to each other that we have a healthy marriage and that we're godly, and that we love each other and respect each other and honor each other and cherish each other and serve each other, but that my kids see it. And that they recognize what we're doing and why we're doing it, and that at the end of the day, they look back and they say thank you to us, not because of us alone, but because we were obedient. I want my kids to say that. I want my kids to say, "Mom and Dad loved each other. "I just know it; they loved me, and they showed me "who God was and they lived it every day. "They didn't just use their words." As James says, don't just be hearers only, but doers of the word. Are we just listening and not doing? Are we just telling and doing the opposite? The do what I say, not what I do?

[Lisa] Right, right.

[Matt] Do what I say, not what I do. It works every time, just not the way the parent thought it was going to work.

[Aaron] Exactly and so I just, going back to that, that's what I want everyone listening to understand. The main purpose of this chapter in the book, is, and it's early on in the book, it's chapter five, and it's setting this idea of we could want to do lots of things for God, but God wants us to do what he's told us to do. And if we can't be faithful with the little thing, and the little thing is our children, our spouse, our home, this is a little picture of the world. If I can't minister to my wife and love her as Christ loves the church, I have no right going and loving a stranger like that. I could.

[Matt] I think what we do is we tend to think like, I know what you're saying, as this is the little thing, so to do the big thing. I actually think that reality is kind of on its head.

[Aaron] Okay.

[Matt] I think the big thing we're doing is we're being faithful with our spouses, we're being faithful in discipling our children. And it's a great, big deal, and see--

[Aaron] Man, I heard that, yeah.

[Matt] If the church had been teaching and focusing on that these past, what, I dunno, however many years.

[Aaron] 60 or 70 years.

[Matt] Would the church be in the state that it's in today with disintegrating families and churches filled with unfulfilled marriages and disappointments and divorce and all of those things. It's a great big deal. And if we're faithful here, God can entrust with ministry elsewhere.

[Jennifer] In chapter 14 of the book, we talk about how what God sees as extraordinary is so different than what the world deems extraordinary. When we look at our own lives, it is that day-to-day, all those little choices of discipling our children, being faithful to one another, that is extraordinary because that is where God is working.

[Aaron] Especially today, it's normal, you brought up the word normal, it's common, that's what it is, it's common in the world for there to be divorce and unfaithfulness and children who are rebellious and hate their parents. It is extraordinary and remarkable now even though it should be normal for a marriage to have love in it.

[Matt] Well, that's just it.

[Aaron] The gospel.

[Matt] It is normal, biblical marriage to have a loving, close, wonderful, fulfilling, enjoyable, beautiful oneness in marriage. That is normal Christianity; that's normal marriage. The problem is, is we see what's common around us in the world, and we get used to what's common, and start thinking that that's normal, but it's not. If you have a biblical perspective, if you walk God's way, and your marriage reflects God's priorities and principles, then you're gonna have an awesome, wonderful, beautiful, loving, enjoyable marriage because that's what a normal Christian marriage really is.

[Jennifer] And the power of God's testimony in your life is actually powerful.

[Matt] Absolutely, right, exactly.

[Aaron] Well, people can't argue with it. I mean, they can argue with anything. We were just talking about this. When you're around people that are walking a certain way, makes it easier to believe that you can too. That goes both ways. So when you see someone, and you're like man they're, like the stewardesses looking at you. They don't your whole story, but they know the story they just saw. You're not faking it when you're sitting in the aisle, whatever row you're in and like, oh we want everyone to see that we're perfect. We have this smile on because you can't fake it.

[Matt] Yeah.

[Aaron] Everyone fakes it, and no one falls for it. Like, oh--

[Jennifer] Maybe for a short flight, but not long one like you said.

[Aaron] Yeah, the short flight's, but yeah.

[Matt] That's right.

[Aaron] And again, we keep going back to this. God's not interested in just us having a happy marriage and a healthy marriage.

[Matt] No.

[Aaron] For the sake of happy and healthy marriage.

That's not an end game.

[Matt] That's exactly right.

[Aaron] It's the means to the end, like you said. It's what, what was the word you used? It verifies, no--

[Matt] Authenticates.

[Aaron] It authenticates.

[Matt] Yeah.

[Aaron] What's sad and still is very powerful to realize is when we're not it doesn't make God the liar. It makes us the liar.

[Matt] It reminds me or brings to mind that phrase. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power. 'Cause you look at it from a galloping horse at 100 yards, and it looks like Christianity. It looks like something that's related to God and related to the Bible. But then you get close and you see, well, no, actually. It's not real; it's not true, and that's when we see the disintegration in the next generation when the kids are like, I don't want any part of that. Again, you just can't hide that. And especially, you mentioned, Lisa, you said, yeah, you can't hide it, your kids will absolutely tell the story and we know of a family. The snapshot looks amazing, and nobody would know this, but their kids told us recently, oh yeah, our parents yell all the time. And you'd never know it, but the kids know it. And the kids are now talking; they're all older now. And now they're saying, oh, no, no, no, no. Parents yell all the time. So that's why it's gotta be true there because if you're out witnessing, if you're that parents, and it could be yelling or bickering or fighting or cheating on your taxes or any number of things, but if you're that parent, and in the gas stations, you're telling a guy, oh, hey, the Lord Jesus Christ died for you, and God loves you, and he wants you to have a relationship. The kid is sitting there going, "Are you kidding me?" it's so important that for the things that we say to be true about how we live. It's called not being a hypocrite, and your kids can figure it out at a very early age.

[Aaron] All of this was so good. I'm encouraged; it makes me think about my marriage even though we're constantly working on it, I just think, man, I wanna--

Makes me think

[Jennifer] Of the kids.

[Aaron] Yeah, I wanna pursue you more. I want to constantly be doing that for the sake of our outward ministry and for the sake of our home, so thank you for these stories, the openness with us. We're gonna ask you our question that we're asking everyone. What is your definition of a marriage after God?

[Lisa] I think that it's that ever growing a deeper love for each other. And it doesn't have to be perfect. I think sometimes we just go, well, it's perfect, so we throw our hands, or it's not perfect, so we throw our hands up. Instead of thinking, no, I'm gonna move forward in this. And I'm gonna grow in these areas. I can even think of things I have struggled with. Believe it or not, I do have a temper. And Matt has the ability, somehow, to press that button better than anybody else I know.

[Matt] Well, I mean, just on a boring Saturday. I mean if there's nothing else to do.

[Lisa] Press my buttons. So I'll find myself reacting to him, and I will stop myself literally mid-sentence and go, wait, it's like, yep, like okay.

[Aaron] That's a good--

[Lisa] What I wanted say was. I didn't quite the first two seconds or minutes, however the situation was, wasn't right. But checking myself and going, okay, but that's not who I wanna be. That's how I was, but that's not who I wanna be anymore, so I wanna try again. And giving each other that grace to grow, but being determined to change and not say, this is not who I wanna be; I do want us to be loving close.

[Matt] And for me, I think I would boil it down. I mean, that's a huge subject, right? And there's so many facets to it. But I would boil it down to this. The fundamental understanding that my marriage is what God is doing in the world. It's not what I'm doing in the world. It's not the thing that I have; I have a marriage. My marriage is what God is doing in the world. The Bible says what God has put together let no man put asunder. This is something God is doing, and so if you have that basic, fundamental faith about this relationship, it's a foundation and a starting point for moving forward.

[Jennifer] Thank you guys so much for joining us today. This has just been, like Aaron said, incredible and inspiring. If people were inspired today and they want to follow you more, can you just remind them where they can find you?

[Lisa] We have a podcast, Faithful Life. And we'd love to have you join us over there. And we also, both of us have a website. Matt has, and I have

[Matt] And then you're also on Instagram, club31women and faithfulman, on Instagram, so you can find us there as well.

[Aaron] Everyone listening, definitely go follow them, they are golden.

[Jennifer] If you like Marriage after God, and you like what we share, you're definitely gonna like them.

[Aaron] We actually just steal all of our content from them and repurpose them. They have been integral in the growth and maturity in our life. And so, we appreciate you guys.

[Jennifer] Thank you.

[Aaron] And we thank you for not only sharing with our audience now, but for sharing with us over the last five years.

[Lisa And Matt] We love you guys.

[Aaron] That we've known you guys. So, we're gonna close out with a prayer. Jennifer's gonna pray and then, yeah.

[Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for creating marriage with such a significant purpose of revealing to the world your divine love. Please help us to make choices that reflect your love in the way we love one another. May we choose to walk in obedience. Thank you for your word which instructs us and shows us how we should walk in obedience. Please continue to give us wisdom and strength as we choose to walk in the spirit and not our flesh. We pray we would make our marriage a priority. We pray we would gain deeper understanding of how our marriage is our first ministry, and the impact we have in each other's lives and in this world just by remaining faithful to your word. If our priorities are ever out of order, or if we are not unified, please help us to change our course. Constantly direct our hearts to align with yours. May our marriage always be in a place where you can use us as a symbol to point other to you, and may you be glorified. In Jesus' name, amen.

[Aaron] Amen.

[Matt] Amen.

[Aaron] So, thank you all for listening today. I hope this blessed you guys. And as always, we want you guys to have a conversation about this. Go on a date, and discuss the things that we talked about today. We have, what is it, 11 more episodes in this series. 11 more interviews to come. They're gonna be awesome; please stay tuned. We look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Mar 13, 2019
MAG 04 - Our Relationship With The Bible w/ Jerrad and Leila Lopes From Dadtired

Order our new book today! Marriage After God: Chasing Boldly After God’s Purpose for Your Life Together

In this episode, we chat with Jerrad lopes and his wife about the place that the word of God should have in our life and marriage.

A quote from Chapter 4 of Marriage After God

“A marriage after God is one that is eager to allow the Word of God to
transform them by the power of the Holy Spirit.”

Dear Lord,
Thank you for your word! It is living and it is active, sharper than any 2 edged sword. Lord, you created everything by your word, and faith comes by hearing your word. You tell us that man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that comes out of your mouth. We pray that as husbands and wives who love you and are chasing after you, that we would be men and women of your word. That we would make it a priority in our lives. That we would read it and meditate on it. That it would be our sustenance. That we would allow ourselves to be transformed by it and renewed by it. May our marriages be transformed by it. We pray that our lives would represent what your word says. We pray that we would take the sword of the spirit which is your word and use it to fight against the schemes of the devil. Lord, your word is good and gift for everyone. May we read it, may we know it, and may we live it out daily.
In Jesus’ name, amen!

[Aaron] Hey! We're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

[Aaron] And today we're in part four of the Marriage After God series and we're going to be talking with Jerrad and Laila Lopes about our relationship with the Bible.

[Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.

[Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife.

[Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution.

[Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade.

[Aaron] And so far, we have four young children.

[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media.

[Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith everyday.

[Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life

[Aaron] love

[Jennifer] and power

[Aaron] That can only be found by choosing after God.

[Jennifer] Together.

[Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.

[Jennifer] This is Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] Thank you guys so much for joining us today. We just want to take a moment and ask you to leave a review for the Marriage After God podcast. So if you've been encouraged by this podcast, if you want to support this podcast, that's just one great way that Aaron and I would love to invite you to do that. It's really quick. You just scroll down to the bottom of the app, leave a star-rating review or a comment review and we really appreciate that.

[Aaron] And then the reason we're doing this 16 part series with all these interviews is because we're launching our book "Marriage After God" and we're excited to get it in your hands. And so if you want to take a moment and go to, either now or after the podcast, and pick up your copy of our new book. Jennifer and I wrote it. We wrote it for you and it's to encourage your marriage to chase boldly after Christ's plan and mission for your marriage. And so that's what this podcast is about and we're gonna be talking about Chapter 4 today with Jerrad and Laila Lopes. Welcome to the show guys.

[Laila] Hello, thank you.

[Aaron] We're so happy to have you guys. We've known you guys for quite a while now. How many years actually?

[Jerrad] Uh

[Laila] Probably three?

[Aaron] Three years?

[Jerrad] I think

[Jennifer] Four?

[Jerrad] Yeah, like three years now.

[Aaron] We've met you guys once in person. We've been doing You guys have been doing the podcast thing way longer than us. Jerrad, you're from DadTired, the podcast and the website.

[Jerrad] Yup.

[Aaron] And so, you guys have helped us on our journey of podcasting and just, it's been awesome knowing you guys and so we're excited to interview you both. So before we get into the ice breaker question and the interview questions, why don't you just let us know who you are, what you guys do, children, marriage, all that.

[Jerrad] Yeah, well first of all, super excited to be here. We are obviously big fans of you guys and what you guys are doing to help encourage marriages. So really really honored to be here. Laila and I have been married for nine years this last week.

[Jennifer] Awesome, congratulations!

[Laila] January 2019, it's nine years.

[Jerrad] Thank you. So nine years. We have three little ones as we're building our team. We have a seven year old son named Elijah, a five year old girl named Eden, and a brand new baby girl named Ella.

[Laila] Two months old.

[Aaron] Congratulations.

[Jennifer] Awesome.

[Laila] Thank you.

[Jennifer] I love that you said building your team.

[Jerrad] Yeah, yeah. So we're super excited about it. We thought we were done with two but once we decided we're not, like, we're just like,

[Jennifer] How many more can we have?

[Jerrad] Yeah, let's just keep having lots of babies.

[Aaron] You know, God's good like that. Just changes our hearts.

[Jerrad] Yeah, yup, yup. Yeah so, we totally see children as a blessing and we're excited to keep the legacy moving on and the kingdom advancing through our family. So anyway, that's our family. I run a ministry called DadTired and Laila is a nurse, an oncology nurse at the hospital.

[Aaron] Awesome. Well we are so excited to have you guys and we always have an ice breaker question and this is just a fun way to get our listeners to get to you know you guys, to get to know us, but the question is for you guys. If you could have a second honeymoon, what would it be?

[Jerrad] Do you have an answer to that, babe?

[Laila] Um, I actually quite liked our honeymoon. We went to Maui. I had never been to any of the Hawaiian islands and I really enjoyed that. I would probably re-do our wedding if we could do that.

[Aaron] You can, can't you?

[Laila] I'd take a second chance at that.

[Jerrad] Our wedding was terrible. It was so bad.

[Laila] It wasn't so bad.

[Jerrad] I didn't like it at all.

[Laila] Jerrad didn't like it.

[Aaron] You like your marriage though, right?

[Laila] Yeah, our marriage is good. The wedding was not us, that's all.

[Jennifer] I always think that

[Jarred] The thing is, Laila, Sorry to interrupt you, go ahead.

[Jennifer] I was just gonna say, I always think back to our wedding too and I think, well, Pinterest didn't really exist back then. So I think I would want to re-do it just for the sake of having my Pinterest board setup.

[Aaron] Yeah, that's the problem. We didn't do know marriages, weddings looked like because we didn't have Pinterest, so. Well, we like. Laila and I met and then four months later were engaged

[Jennifer] Wow.

[Aaron] Nice.

[Jarred] and six months after that were married and we didn't have a style yet. You know? We just didn't know each other very well, which is crazy to think about. And our friends didn't know each other that well yet and it really is a testament to God's grace and His hand on us, protecting us, because we really were still getting to know each other in so many ways. So anyway, now that we've obviously been in this for like a decade, we are like, alright, we would re-do it and invite more people or maybe different people.

[Laila] It's just the style. It just wasn't really our, well we didn't have a style. We didn't have a "us" established yet because we were so, we had just met nine months prior to our wedding, but.

[Jennifer] What about the honeymoon though? Would you do something different?

[Jerrad] I'm geeking out on Southeast Asia right now, so I would do like two weeks in Vietnam, Thailand.

[Jennifer] Aaron would love that.

[Aaron] Yeah, I think we've known some people that have done that. And you could do the whole thing for like 500 bucks.

[Jerrad] I know, I know.

[Laila] It's a lot cheaper than Maui.

[Aaron] Awesome. So Jennifer, why don't you give the quote from our chapter, this chapter, in the book and then we'll get into the topic.

[Jennifer] So this is from chapter 4 of Marriage After God and it's titled, "Your Relationship with the Bible". It says, "A marriage after God is one that is eager to allow the word of God to transform them by the power of the Holy Spirit."

[Jerrad] Nice.

[Aaron] And so, this whole topic in this chapter is just, without the Bible, without our foundation there, without our hearts and minds in that thing, the very word of God, we won't know what we're supposed to be doing. We won't know how to know God and so we just wanted to talk with you guys today about our relationship as Christians with the Bible. And so,

[Jennifer] Specifically your relationship with the Bible.

[Aaron] Yeah, your relationship and then our prayer and hope is that the listeners would get inspired, would be encouraged, would be reminded of the importance and the vital place that the Bible has in our lives. That it is our faith, which is the word of God. So, you know, we'll just jump right in. So here is the first question. What is your current relationship with the Bible? And I know that's kind of a big question, but I just want to know, where does the Bible land in your life, as a married couple, as Christians, right now?

[Laila] That's a good question. For me, it's been a bit of a journey. I didn't grow up a Christian at all. So I was really unfamiliar with it for the first 21 years of my life, actually. But after becoming a Christian, I was really in awe of the gospel and Jesus and that God loves me, as I had heard it, like, preached on Sundays. But I still, I actually wasn't interested in the Bible for a long time. My view of it was that it was, maybe just a collection of old stories or something. It just seemed really irrelevant. But now as a more mature Christian, I understand that it's actually, you know, as it says, the inspired word of God. Which I think makes it rather important. So I placed a much higher importance on reading it, learning it, and knowing what God's word says about himself specifically.

[Jerrad] Yeah, and I would say for me, I grew up kind of opposite of Laila. I grew up going to church from the time I was just a young kid and so I remember learning the stories of God even as a child. But I think it wasn't until maybe, I don't know, seven, eight years ago where I started to realize, as you read the scriptures, that this isn't just a random book of stories but that there's actually a woven story in all of it of God redeeming everything back to himself and it's really this beautiful grand story and it became much more beautiful to me that this wasn't just like some stories where God was trying to get us to be more moral, behave better, but that He was actually telling a story about Himself and His relationship with His creation. So yeah, I think that's where we are now.

[Jennifer] Awesome. So for everyone listening, just to encourage them, I like practical. I like to know what everybody else's routines look like so that I can look at my life and go, okay, what can I maximize here or there or do better. So what is digging into the word on a daily basis look like for you guys right now? What is, do you have some routines put in place?

[Jerrad] Yeah.

[Laila] Yeah we do. It's about to change a bit for me. I still work. I work two or three days a week usually and I commute about 45 minutes to an hour each way. So I use that time, just as a practical way to get into the Bible, I listen to it through some audible app or the Bible on audio and that's been really helpful. It's just a quiet time. You know, we have three kids including an infant. So there's not a lot of quiet time around here. But for me that's been really a helpful and practical way is just in my commute.

[Aaron] That's a great tip.

[Jerrad] Yeah, we use that. So last year we read through the Bible together from Genesis to Revelation and then we can kind of get into what that looked like practically if you think that that would be helpful. But this year, we are going through just the New Testament in a year and then next year we'll do the Old Testament in a year and then we'll cycle back through the whole Bible in a year.

[Jennifer] I love that you guys are already looking ahead. Like, these are what our years look like. I just think that's so awesome.

[Aaron] Yeah, and being prepared like that and having a plan, it does make it easier because you know where you guys are at and the whole family being on the same page makes it easier rather than, like well what am I gonna read today. You all know. You're like oh we're reading, you know, we're in John right now

[Jennifer] Right. and we're on the same chapter and we're gonna talk about that later.

[Jennifer] So could you guys share a little bit about that? Reading together as a couple. Not only how and when but how it makes you feel?

[Jerrad] Yeah, I think, for us, like last year, when we read the Bible together front to back, we started out with really grand plans of sitting down and having an hour together a day and reading through the Bible together as a couple and with the family and journaling, and that just wasn't practical. It didn't work out that way. And so, we didn't want to give up on it. So we said, why don't we just keep doing this on our own as much as, like everyday we'll just read what the plan tells us to read, and then as many as times as we can do this together as husband and wife, let's do that. As many times as we can do it together as a family, let's do that. But we just didn't want to get behind and we wanted to be realistic with it.

[Laila] If it came down to, should we just skip today because we can't read together, we didn't want to do that. So we just thought, you know, if we need to, we can still just make sure that we ourselves personally are filling up and then, as able, we'll get together. We did try and prioritize that, to read it together as a couple because it was really fun to see what stuck out to Jerrad and I think he enjoyed hearing what things stuck out to me. 'Cause sometimes it was different, sometimes it was exactly the same. But yeah, if it comes down to don't read at all because we're not reading it together or just get what we can when we can, then we just did it separately.

[Jerrad] And the other thing is, so I travel a lot too for work and for speaking and stuff. So like

[Laila] Yeah.

[Jerrad] It was cool. And Laila works a few days a week. So it was cool to even know we were still reading the same thing. So even when I was on the road, we would still be doing phone calls and being like, what did you think of that passage today, what stuck out to you, or can you believe Paul said this, that was super convicting, you know? We were talking about it really organically all throughout the week and the year.

[Jennifer] That's so cool. So I don't know if people are like me in this. But you guys talked about setting this goal of what you wanted it to look like and be like and then quickly realize that it wasn't practical and that you had to change things up or even go with the flow almost. And I know I have struggled with this in the past and really when it comes to anything in my relationship with Aaron, but you set these goals and when they don't happen like you want them too, I'm saying, I'm saying it as if it's not happening to me. But what I mean is I would get defeated or I would feel down and not want to move forward because it's not happening like I want it to.

[Aaron] Yeah, like you failed.

[Jennifer] Yeah, like I failed and so I think that this is just really encouraging to hear from you guys and to be reminded that goals are good and having expectations are okay as long as when you come up against them and things aren't working that people can still move forward and just change how it's being done.

[Aaron] Yeah, so shift it quickly rather than just give up.

[Jennifer] Exactly.

[Laila] I would credit Jerrad for that because I am a bit like that if we've set a goal to read it together every day and now it's been two or three days and we haven't read it together then let's just quit, we'll start over next year and try again. But Jerrad's like, no it's okay. You have something you say about setting goals that I can't remember.

[Aaron] What's that really good phrase you always say?

[Laila] What's that good thing you say that is really helpful sometimes?

[Jerrad] I have no idea. But what I do know is, as Christians, man, we can just get so caught up in being really rigorous and disciplined and we have to have our morning quiet time and we shame ourselves if we don't. But the point isn't that we read everyday as much as the point is that are we getting do know God, right? And that's like. Life happens. You might skip a day. You might like whatever. And obviously, it's cool to be disciplined and it's important. But even more important is are we getting to know God.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jerrad] If that ends up being a chapter a day, or a verse a day, or six chapters a day, whatever. Let's not forget what we're trying to do here and that's to get to know the God of ours.

[Aaron] Yeah, I was gonna, this transitioned perfectly in what I was gonna bring up. Being marriages after God and chasing boldly after what He has for us and that He would use our marriages and knowing His word is the beginning of that because in knowing His word is knowing Him and what He wants, where He's going, what He loves, what He hates. And so I just wanted to ask you guys, because a lot of Christians could be listening to this and be like, okay they're talking about reading the Bible, everyone always talks about reading the Bible. Yeah it's important. I gotta read the Bible. I gotta pray. Those are the, quote on quote, Christian things to do. But it's so much more than that. It's not just, like you said, here's your reading plan because, to be honest, you could monotonously go through the Bible and not get anything out of it. But why? Why is it vital that the believer, that Christians, that marriages are in the word of God. What is that doing for us? Why is God desire us to know His word?

[Jerrad] Yeah, so at the heart of it is it's bigger than just, I think what you said is so true, that as Christians we feel like, man I know I should be praying more. I know I should be reading the Bible more. I know I should be tithing more and whatever. It's these disciplines that we kind of get on ourselves about. But at the heart of it is we are all susceptible to making up our own Gods in our own minds. We don't drift towards good theology. We drift away from it. We drift towards selfishness and so often times, what happens is, we end up making our God look like us and he ends up liking the things that we like and he can tolerate the sins that we tolerate and he's not, he loves the people we love and he hates the people that we're mad at, right? He ends up looking a lot like us. And so scripture confronts us, right? II Timothy 3:16, it's useful for rebuking and correcting and training in righteousness. When we read scripture, we realize quickly God is his own person. He has his own personality. He is who he is. He is Yahweh God. And so we are trying to, if we don't learn who that God is, we will drift towards making up an own God in our mind and that is a really really dangerous place to be as a Christian.

[Aaron] So we dig into the word. We learn, and I love what you said because we do make up our own gods. When we just, and this is where a lot of Christians are today and I pray that my listeners aren't there. But if they are, I pray that this snaps them out of it and says, oh we need to find out who God is, not who we think God is. But knowing who God is, what does that do to the Christian? What does that do in our lives when we're like, oh. Laila, you mentioned that you met the love of God and you're like, He loves me. And at first you weren't like, and you heard that from the pulpit. You heard that from pastors and from church. But you weren't interested in the word of God and then all of a sudden you were like, wait a minute. The word of God is who God is. You know?

[Laila] Right, exactly. Well I think if I would have just stuck with what this pastor had said to me or what the Christians are saying to me then I would also be pretty susceptible to also listening to maybe what other people were telling me. Untruths and lies. And so I think having first been drawn in by hearing God's word spoken, then able to really ground myself in knowing who God is because of who God says He is and Jesus is and I wouldn't know that if it weren't for the scriptures and like I said, I would just be so easily swayed to believe who knows what if I would have just kept to what people tell me about God instead of what God tells me about God.

[Jennifer] Now when you do hear people tell you things about God you can test those things because you know His word.

[Laila] Exactly.

[Jerrad] Christians say all kinds of really crazy things, especially on social media. Like God told me this, or just believe this, and it's like, that's not at all what God's word says. And that's why it's so important for Christians to know the word of God because even Christians, or especially Christians, will say things that are just like, man that sounds really great but that just is not at all what the scriptures teach.

[Laila] They're like half-truths. So they sound really Christian-y and good, but not quite right.

[Aaron] Yeah, I take the example from Christ when he's in the wilderness being tempted by the devil and the devil uses scripture

[Laila] Mm hmm, right.

[Aaron] to tempt Jesus. He goes to the very thing that teaches us about who God is and he takes it out of context, you know? Which is funny because this is what false teachers do today. They're using scriptures and they're drawing it out of context and they're using it to, like you said, create their own God from the scriptures rather than, well actually, this is why it's saying what it's saying and this is what it's saying and this is who it is saying it to. That we have to be like Christ. Knowing the word, so we can go back to the enemy or to these things we see on social media, and say well okay, maybe that is right but it also says this and so, therefore, that thing can't be true.

[Jerrad] Right, yup. That's such a good reminder. And we remember in scripture, Satan has been doing that since day one. Didn't God say. Very first words we ever see from Satan was "Didn't God say". And so yeah. We have to know the character of God because you're right. The enemy loves to twist the words of God.

[Jennifer] So talking about the character of God. Can we know God without a close relationship with the Bible?

[Jerrad] I guess the only hesitancy I would say in that is there's so many believers who didn't have any actual Bible in their hand for a long time.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] Mm.

[Jerrad] Who had to hear stories about God and they relied on, maybe they had one Bible in their whole village, right?

[Laila] Even today.

[Jerrad] Even today that's true where the word of God is being taught orally because people don't know how to read or they don't have access to the scriptures. And I believe that God, supernaturally by the Holy Spirit, can continue to work in their lives and mature believers for those that are in the situation. But that's the exception right? For an American who's listening, who's got a Bible to say, yeah I kind of got a good idea of who God is, I kind of get the jist of the Bible, to say I don't really need to read. That's just foolish thinking.

[Aaron] Yeah I was just gonna say that. We've heard that before and that argument, well there's other people that don't have the word of God. But that doesn't give an excuse to all of us who have multiple Bibles and we can literally go to a hotel room

[Jerrad] Right.

[Aaron] and there is a Bible in the drawer. We can go to the store and get a Bible. People give out free Bibles. You can to your church. They'll probably give you a Bible.

[Jerrad] Right.

[Aaron] So we don't get to have the excuse of like, yeah.

[Laila] Right.

[Jerrad] So if you're listening right now and you don't have a Bible, I will send you one. Like that, there is zero excuse and I know you guys would too.

[Aaron] So Laila and Jerrad, you guys were talking about, when you got married very quickly and how you guys hadn't established an "us" yet and that's why you couldn't do the wedding, you didn't have a style for the wedding, you're like who are we gonna invite, what does this thing look like? But things are much different now because you know each other and I just was trying to, I wanted to highlight that again because, we can know, you know the question was can you have a close relationship with God without the Bible. And I like your answer, no, I don't think we can. But the Bible does tell us, in Romans, that we can know of God just by nature itself. Just by creation itself. But that does not tell us who God is. So we can experience God. Any person in any village anywhere can know that there is a God. Which is what Atheists they have to just literally deny that there is a God. They can't just assume that there's not because there is no, the world is proof of it. But to know God, just like when you guys were getting married, you guys didn't yet know each other, we couldn't know God without knowing what He's said because that would be like being married and you guys never talking. Jerrad never explaining who his family is and showing you who they are and never telling you things from the past and how he thinks and things he's done. And you literally just, you live together and you have no clue who Jerrad is. Yeah, you're married.

[Laila] Right.

[Aaron] You're connected with him but, that's not a very fruitful marriage, right?

[Laila] Right.

[Aaron] So I wanted to bring that up, that beautiful analogy. But now you guys know each other, and you guys are consistently knowing each other and that should be the heart of the marriage after God is that we, whether we know everything now, and whether we're in the word of God four hours a day, whatever that looks like, that we have a desire to go that direction. And it sounds like that's where you guys are at.

[Laila] Yeah, I would say. Right, it would be the same. I mean, that is a good analogy. If I had married Jerrad and in the first year decided that I know everything there is about Jerrad because now I've been married to him for a year. That's crazy. Every day that goes by, I am changing and when I interact with Jerrad, I learn about him. Something new about him. I mean almost daily we just learn the nuances and I think it's that way with scripture too. Last year we read through the Bible, Genesis to Revelation, and I am certain that when we read through it again, I am going to learn it in a totally different way as opposed to have having just assumed that I know what I need to know and be done with it. I mean they say it's the living word of God. It's not changing but I am and the way that I, the way that God speaks to me through His word changes every time I read even the same scripture, over and over. It's different each time.

[Jennifer] I love that you give that picture that it doesn't change but I am. Like, I change because of it. So I want to kind of dig a little personal here and just ask you guys in what ways has the word of God transformed your marriage?

[Laila] Well I'm reminded through scripture who God is and what He's already done and so I can count on what I know He can do. You know, like we said, we've been married for nine years and a couple years ago we had a really really hard season in marriage. It's really part of how DadTired was actually born out of that season. But it was just, it was actually really awful. But I was able to pull from scripture what I know about God and what the Bible says about marriage and instead of bailing out like what my flesh would want to do and what my emotions were telling me to do is just get out of here, this sucks, this is hard, I don't like him anymore. I was able to just know that God can change hearts and I just prayed like crazy through that season. And like what your quote from the book, "allowing the word of God to transform them by the power of the Holy Spirit". I wouldn't know that power if I hadn't been in scripture. But I just was able to trust in the power of the Holy Spirit because I know what He's done. I know what He can do. And here we are. Nine years in. And way past that awful season.

[Jennifer] What a powerful testimony. Like Aaron was saying, I pray for those listening. My prayer for those listening would hear that and be encouraged. And if anyone is in that place right now where things are, where maybe they're rough or it's hard to persevere right now, I hope that they would dig into the word of God and find the same hope and endurance that you found through the word of God.

[Jerrad] Yeah I was just gonna say too, to kind of piggy-back off of that is, your whole book is called Marriage After God, which is really like, that title says I want to marriage my, or I'm sorry. I want to model by marriage after God, right? In the character of God. And so to do that you have to know what God's character is like. And when you read the scripture, you learn that God is a God who is relentless in His pursuit of people who constantly turn their back on Him. And he's faithful even when people aren't faithful. And so Laila, being connected to that truth, and the truth that she learned through the word of God and who God actually is, not who she wanted him to be in her mind, she was able to pursue me relentlessly even when I was not being faithful in my love and pursuit of her. And so, that's a testimony. That's much deeper than, hey, you should read the Bible every day

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jerrad] because it's a good thing to do as a Christian. It literally saved our marriage. Had she had made up some God in her mind, she probably would have said, well God wants me to be gone because Jerrad's being an, you know, he's being a jerk. But I know who God is and I want to model my marriage after who God is and as a result, I'm going to pursue Jerrad the way that God has pursued me even if Jerrad's not fully in it. And as a result of that, the Holy Spirit worked and changed my heart. And literally, the reason that we're sitting here today, doing this podcast, is because of that.

[Aaron] And that's what's amazing about the word of God. When the Bible tells us that the word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword, and we also see that in Revelation when it's describing Jesus, you know this two-edged sword coming out of his mouth. And that it cuts even to the marrow. Like it cuts through our flesh. It cuts through our desires. It cuts through our opinions, our way of thinking, down to the motives and then it reveals to us who we are. You know? And that's what changes us because, going back to that idea of creating our own little Gods. You know, creating what we believe God to be. You end up with the conclusion, Laila, is that well God wants me to be happy. Therefore, since I'm not happy, God wants me to leave. You know?

[Laila] Right. Oh yeah, I would have loved to have, at the time, made that true. Jerrad's not being what I want him to be. He's not making me happy. And yeah, God wants me to be happy so I'm out. But I just knew that wasn't true. How many times we've been unfaithful to God just in our walk with him and He just doesn't bail. There's just no way around it. And he says to, you know, love your spouse that way.

[Aaron] Which is crazy.

[Laila] I just had nothing else I could do and I knew I couldn't change Jerrad. I could beg and cry and you know, hey, don't be a jerk. But there was just nothing I could do. We were just in a bad spot and I'm sure I was not always pleasant for him either. But I just had to pray to the one who I knew could change Jerrad's heart and it certainly wasn't me or any made up God who looks like me. But just, like you said, the power of the Holy Spirit, that was it. And I prayed a lot.

[Aaron] And he's doing it. There's people listening right now that are probably gonna be finding freedom and restoration in their marriages just because of this testimony. So thank you for your openness.

[Laila] And to be honest, there as a lot of eye-rolls for me when people would say, just pray about it, just pray about it. I hated that because I wanted some action, you know? But we were just at the point that I thought I literally have nothing else I can do and I would set my alarm in the middle of the night and get up and pray. It was just. I dunno. I'm tellin' ya. I really didn't like when people told me, just pray about it. But I did it because I was just that desperate and it was those prayers have certainly been answered.

[Aaron] Well I think of, so our pastor always says, "Prayer isn't the preparation for the battle. Prayer is the battle." That's how we war. And the Bible tell us to pray about all things and for everything and in every place. And when we don't just. The prayer that you're talking about isn't just, "Okay, Lord, just fix the situation." It's "Lord, what do you want? Lord, where do you want me? What do you want me to do? How do you want me to pray?" Man, and just in another encouragement, I love it, the Bible tells us when we don't even know what to pray for, that the spirit prays for us. And then on top of that, Jesus is at the right hand of God right now interceding on our behalf. Which is amazing. That you could sit there in bed and say, "I have no clue what I'm doing Lord, but I need your help" and Jesus is praying for you and he's saying, Lord help them. Give them strength. Give them courage. So I would encourage everyone too. That that's a great encouragement. Don't just pray. But pray with anticipation of what God wants and His will. So I want to ask you guys another question. You know, we're talking about going through struggles. Jennifer and I, that's kind of where our ministry was born from, was struggles we were going through. It sounds like the DadTired ministry and what you guys are doing was born out of some issues you guys were going through. But another thing we talk about in the book is that having a good marriage is not the end game. Having a healthy marriage is not the end game. Getting to the word of God and knowing the God is not the end game. These things that we're talking about is to do something. That there is an end in mind. How do you guys see that, you know, the word of God changing you, you guys walking in obedience to the word and finding that restoration in your marriage, where you're at now, how has God used all of that stuff and your obedience for his sake?

[Jerrad] Yeah, I think that, just kind of going back to what we were just talking about. I think that when we live out what we see God being like, we give everyone around us a glimpse of that God that we see in the Bible. And so when Laila was faithful to me in that season, she gave me a glimpse of the gospel. When she was faithful. When our kids see us be faithful to each other even when we're not happy, but we continue to pursue each other relentlessly, we continue to pursue their hearts even when they're disobedient, we continue to forgive, we give them glimpses of the gospel and the good news of God. And then our neighbors see that. The people around us see that. It's living out what we see the God of the Bible being like that gives the world a glimpse of who God is. So yeah, I think that's what God meant when he said, be salt and light, and to represent me to the world. And so anything other than that is really telling a lie about God. Had Laila bailed on me, then she would be teaching our kids that like, hey, you can just get out when it's easy, or when you're not happy, or when it's hard, I'm sorry. And when you're not happy. And that's not who the God of the Bible is. And so it would be a lie about His marriage covenant, the whole reason of a marriage covenant was to, like you said, it wasn't for the purpose of us just being happy and building our own little family for the sake of joy and having a nice little neat marriage. But it was to give ourselves, our kids, and the world around us, a glimpse of who God is. That's the whole point of marriage. And so, we don't want to tell a lie about it. We want to represent that original intent well and to show off to each other and to the world who God really is.

[Aaron] That's beautiful.

[Jennifer] I have tears in my eyes.

[Aaron] That was really good.

[Jennifer] That was awesome.

[Aaron] How would you encourage those listening today to get even closer to the word of God? You know, not just like, here's a set of rules, here's your reading plan. But like, why? Why should they be closer to God, God's word?

[Jarred] I think that I would probably just go back to what we were just talking about at the beginning of the conversation and what we've hit throughout this conversation and that's that, man, I don't care if you've grown up in church since you were born, if you were born in a baptismal, you know? Or like you just gave your. That's a joke, by the way. Nobody's hopefully born in a baptismal. Whether you're born in the church or you just gave your life to Christ today, we are all susceptible of just making up who we want God to be. I've been teaching the word of God for a decade now and I still do it. I still want God to be, look like I want him to look. And I'm still confronted by the scriptures and the truth of the scriptures every single day.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jerrad] We literally just read a verse this last week in II Timothy that says you're always learning but never arriving at the truth, or you know, at the knowledge of the truth. And it's like, well crud, that's convicting because I'm always learning. I feel like I'm learning and yet am I actually getting closer to Jesus? Just don't be arrogant enough, even subtle arrogance to think that you know you can wrap your mind around this God of the universe. He is way to big for you to understand fully. And it's just vital to continue to understand who this God is and to chase after Him. The other thing I would say on that is Proverbs 1 says, I think it's Proverbs 1? It could be Psalm 1. One of the Ps. One says that if you, a man in the word of God is like a tree planted near living water, right?

[Aaron] Oh yeah.

[Jerrad] And so we all can tell when trees are planted near water. They're alive, they're producing fruit, they're green, they look healthy. And the ones that aren't? It's really easy to tell. Hey, that tree could use some water. It's dead. It's dying. I could probably push it over right? And you can tell people, Christians, who aren't near the word of God. They look tired. They look stressed. They look like they're burned out and it's like bro, it's not that you need to have this huge crisis and figure things out. Just go plant yourself near the living water which is the word of God again.

[Aaron] Yeah, and I think of the parable of the seed and the sower and the different soils. And we wanna have the soft soil where when the seed is planted, which is the word of God, it goes deep into us. And if we're not, like you were just giving that analogy of the tree. We actually had a tree die a couple years ago because we had a dry winter and we didn't realize we were supposed to water it when it's so dry. And the ground was all cracked and it started dying from the top down because the roots were, it was probably like got some sort of root rot, but because the ground was dry and the water didn't go deep, the roots didn't go deep. And so it's the same with us. If we're not in the word of God, if we don't know the word of God, those roots are going, they're shallow. And we think we're going to survive on that as a Christian in this world. So that's a good reminder. Thank you for that.

[Jennifer] This has been really great talking with you guys. We have one more question and it's something that we're asking everyone throughout the series and it's, in your own words, what is a marriage after God?

[Laila] A marriage after God. I would say just remembering that your marriage isn't just for your happiness. I know we hear that a lot. Marriage isn't for your happiness. It's for your holiness. But that's just really true. Jerrad's not here to fulfill me and make me happy because I would have bounced a couple times and I'm sure he would have been happy to do the same on a few occasions over the years. But just remembering that our marriage is to point each other, and our kids, and our neighbors, and just the world around us, back to God. That's what I'm to do for him and he's to do for me. We just point each other to Jesus, make each other more like Jesus through prayer and just trusting in God's spirit and just praying that, over each other and for each other.

[Jerrad] I would agree with all of that except that I would have never left you.

[Laila] I know I feel bad because we keep talking about how I could have left, I could have left, but I'm sure I'm not always a peach. I don't always make you happy but thank you for sticking around anyway.

[Jennifer] Well thank you guys so much for being on the show today. We are just cheering for you as you pursue the ministry that God has for you and your marriage and also online. We would like to encourage everyone to take a moment and pray with us and then Aaron will close us out. Dear Lord, thank you for your word. It is living and it is active, sharper than any two-edged sword. Lord, you created everything by your word and faith comes by hearing your word. You tell us that man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that comes out of your mouth. We pray that as husbands and wives who love you and are chasing after you, that we would be men and women of your word. That we would make it a priority in our lives. That we would read it and meditate on it. That it would be our sustenance. That we would allow ourselves to be transformed by it and renewed by it. May our marriages be transformed by it. We pray that our lives would represent what your word says. We pray that we would take the sword of the spirit, which is your word, and use it to fight against the schemes of the devil. Lord, your word is good and a gift for everyone. May we read it, may we know it, and may we live it out every day. In Jesus name, Amen.

[Aaron] Amen.

[Jerrad] Amen.

[Jennifer] Amen.

[Aaron] Okay, so, everyone listening, we thank you for joining us on this episode with Jerrad and Laila Lopes. And I just want you all to go check out his podcast. It's called "DadTired" and you can get it anywhere podcasts are available. So iTunes, just search for Dad Tired. Podbean, Castbox, wherever you listen to podcasts, you can find him. And can you let us know if there's anything else that they can get from you guys, how they can connect with you guys?

[Jerrad] Super grateful again to be here. If they just go to, we've got a free little eBook that we give away to guys on just trying to help them figure out how to lead their family well and there's a community to jump in to which a lot of guys in our DadTired community are also part of the Marriage After God and Husband Revolution family.

[Aaron] Awesome. Thank you guys again for being on the show and we have 12 more episodes coming up in this series, tons of more awesome interviews, so we want you guys to stay tuned and we'll see you next week for next week's episode. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Mar 06, 2019
MAG 03 - Oneness and Intimacy In Marriage w/ Ryan and Selena Frederick of Fierce Marriage

Order Our New Book, "Marriage After God" Today!

“A marriage after God is a team moving together in one mind, one
heart, one spirit, and in one direction with their eyes on heavenly
and eternal things.” - Aaron Smith, Marriage After God book

In this episode, we interview our good friends, Ryan and Selena Frederick of the Fierce Marriage Podcast

Dear Lord,
We pray we would be husbands and wives who pursue intimacy with you. We pray we would make ourselves known to you and know to each other. Help us to walk with each other in an understanding way and to love unconditionally. Thank you for the gift of oneness in marriage and what it represents. We pray we would operate as one every day in our marriage relationship. Holy Spirit continue to empower us to do so. Help us to be transparent with one another. Help us to be great listeners as well. May truth be exposed and may your presence be evident in our lives. Thank you for marriage and thank you for salvation. You are a good God and we love you. May our hearts align with yours as we chase boldly after you and pursue a marriage That reflects your love story.
In Jesus’ name, amen!


  • Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God.

  • Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

  • And today we're in part three of the Marriage After God series and we're gonna be talking with Ryan and Selena Frederick about oneness and intimacy in marriage. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.

  • I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife.

  • And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution.

  • We have been married for over a decade.

  • And so far, we have four young children.

  • We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media.

  • With a desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day.

  • We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life,

  • Love,

  • And power.

  • That can only be found by chasing after God.

  • Together.

  • Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.

  • This is Marriage After God.

  • Hey thanks for joining us today. As always, wanna invite you to leave a review. Star ratings are awesome, that's the easiest way to leave a review but the text reviews are also really powerful and we love reading all of them and that's an awesome way to spread the word about the podcast.

  • Another way you can support the podcast is by shopping on our online store,, and we wanna encourage you to get a copy of our new book, Marriage After God, that's what this whole series is based off of and if you've been listening to the series, you've already been encouraged and inspired by the book content and so we just wanna at least get you over to the site to give you more information on the book.

  • So today we're talking with some good friends of ours, Ryan and Selena Frederick from Fierce Marriage and Ryan, Selena, welcome.

  • Hey guys.

  • Hi guys, thanks for having us.

  • Yeah, thanks for having us.

  • Excited to be here.

  • We're excited to have you.

  • Yeah it's a treat.

  • Yeah every time I think of you guys, we listen to your podcast, of course, 'cause your friends of ours, but I always think of our trip to IKEA in California, do you remember that?

  • We had one child.

  • Oh yeah.

  • It was so fun.

  • Do you remember that?

  • That was a fun date, yeah.

  • It was, and I don't know what we bought, but I remember it barely fit in our car, and Aaron you helped me fit it in our little Prius that we had in California.

  • Oh, I don't remember.

  • Was it shelves or something?

  • Well it was may more fun for me than it was for you.

  • It actually might have been a crib.

  • As much fun as it was walking around Ikea, I remember we just had really great conversation.

  • Yes, and you only had one child.

  • Did we eat lunch at Ikea?

  • I don't know.

  • Yeah.

  • Yeah, it was one kid, it was a totally different life back then and we were all still fairly new to all of this marriage stuff.

  • So,

  • Yes.

  • Why don't you guys introduce yourselves, who you are, how long you've been married what do you guys do?

  • Sure.

  • Children, stuff like that.

  • Yeah we are the Fredericks and we have been married, it'll be 16 years this year. And we,

  • Wow.

  • Have two little girls named Adelaide and Clementine, they are five and 2 1/2. And we are, yeah we're the voices and authors and everything--

  • Yeah.

  • I guess behind Fierce Marriage.

  • Yeah.

  • And that is us for now.

  • That's for now.

  • We live in Washington State. The best place in the world.

  • Yeah, just a little bit north and a little better than Oregon state.

  • Stop

  • And a little bit wetter.

  • This is true.

  • Wetter is better.

  • A little bit colder.

  • Awesome, well thank you guys so much for being here. We just know that this is gonna be a great time for our listeners to get to know you, if they don't already, which they probably do. But we are just really excited about this topic. We're jumping into chapter three of Marriage After God, which is the Marks of a Marriage After God and we're just gonna cover two of those topics today.

  • In this interview, yeah.

  • In this interview. But before we do that we wanna get into the icebreaker question. This is just a fun way to--

  • Let people know us.

  • Yeah.

  • You guys better.

  • Alright, bring it on.

  • So the icebreaker question is, do you have any hobbies together, or separate, or maybe as a family?

  • I think we try to keep our hobbies mostly together these days.

  • Yeah.

  • It's actually contributed to that oneness that we'll get into, but we do have, you know, different passions and things that we enjoy I think separately. I like riding horses, Ryan doesn't like it as much as I do, he'll do it, but.

  • Actually we went, we went on a vacation and we went on 'em.

  • We did, that's right.

  • We rode together and I think I was won over.

  • Yes.

  • It was so fun I had the most amazing, but, what do you call it, a mount, an amazing mount.

  • Your horse was pretty great.

  • Yeah.

  • It was pretty great.

  • So I was actually, I was following along on Insta Stories and I actually became really fond of it too and I can't wait for vacation Aaron of riding horses together.

  • Oh, are you, that's a hint?

  • Yes.

  • Ryan, it looked incredible. Like every time you guys posted I was just like, yes, that looks awesome.

  • Because.

  • What's funny is I have a completely different sentiment to horses, I was raised around horses and my mom always took us riding and I hate it.

  • Oh no.

  • You were responsible for cleaning after them?

  • My sentiment might be different, it's been a long time, but yeah I didn't like the, mucking the stalls and feeding the horses and cleaning them, and yeah, so it was not a fun part of it.

  • We'll pray for you that the Lord will renew your heart for it.

  • But.

  • Thank you, thank you that's awesome. So I just wanted, before we get into a quote from the book, I just wanted to, the reason we, we're interviewing so many different people on this podcast in this series for the, Marriage After God book is we wanna just show the diversity in the body of Christ and just how all of our marriages as we chase after God together and how God wants to use us all for kingdom work in one direction. So I just, I'm excited about that, we love that you guys are doing it, you guys are a marriage after God. And so I just wanna read a quote from chapter three, The Marks of a Marriage After God. It says, "a marriage after God is a team moving together in one mind, one heart, one spirit, and in one direction with their eyes on heavenly and eternal things." Do you guys agree with that?

  • Amen.

  • Oh absolutely.

  • I'm sure you do.

  • Good stuff.

  • Yeah.

  • Good stuff.

  • So in your guys' marriage how have you two cultivated oneness?

  • That's a great question and it is not without a, I think intentionality, I think is the biggest way to be honest. As we've just consciously said that hey we, we need, we're not just roommates, but we need to be on mission together in unity on whatever that mission is. Of course as Christians we have a pretty clear mission right, make disciples and go to the ends of the earth and glorify God and all that good stuff, not necessarily in that order, but, and so I think we've cultivated that by, Selena talked about our hobbies, I think decisions like that, right? So I enjoy different things that I just don't do because they just, they don't add to the family that I feel like God is calling us to.

  • Right. It's harder for us to say yes to things that might take us away from each other for even just a day or sometimes even a couple hours, but on a consistent basis it can kind of, we feel like it kind of breaks away our unity, it kind of chips away at it slowly. If, you know, I'm going and riding horses every Saturday for five hours a day, you know, and that's kind of like our only, it's family time together, so.

  • Or I, you know, I love going to the mountains and the ocean--

  • I do too.

  • Scuba diving.

  • I like it yeah.

  • And so it's like, we do some of that, but it's like, if it were, we've kind of made a decision that that's the exception and not the rule.

  • Right.

  • It's like you don't owe me time by myself.

  • Right.

  • Right, I feel like that's kind of a cultural mantra, is like you get your time I get mine, you get your money, I get my money and we've just thrown all that out the window, it's our time, it's our money. Not that you can't, you know.

  • Yeah.

  • Not that you can't be generous to each other in those ways, but just as a norm I think that's one way we've done it for us.

  • And early on in our relationship, before we were married or anything, God was always a big part of it. We always talked about what we were learning in the Bible together and, excuse me, and even to this day we're like, what has God been teaching you and just the nature of what we do, and you guys understand this. We're in the word, we're learning about God, we're teaching him to our children. We're constantly being sanctified and learning new things and for me that's, that spiritual oneness has really solidified and grown out of those conversations that we've had together.

  • That's so good. So as you guys communicate, can you just encourage our listeners with maybe what that looks like practically, like if, like how do you cultivate oneness in your marriage if something comes up that, you know, something that one of you wants to do, or one of you is wrestling with, how do you communicate that to each other?

  • Yeah, that's a really good question. It's different obviously for every situation in every marriage and you kinda know what those hot-button topics are, or where those big red buttons are and so you--

  • Well I feel like you get to know it. Like we didn't just decide not to do things it kind of, as kids came into our life and as we became more unified in our marriage and kind of went through some hard times together, we started, and spent kind of some just time, one-one-one with each other, we started understanding where our boundaries were beginning to fall I feel like a little bit more.

  • Yeah.

  • And go ahead.

  • Well, one of the things I tell guys, and I think it applies to gals as well, but I don't, I'd rather just talk to guys on this topic. Is that, you know, if ever in doubt, if you ever can always be generous, always choose generosity towards your wife, right? If there's a spot where you can give in, what be it a hobby, or an argument, or whatever, be generous, be the one to give in. And there are times when I feel like as a husband and a man, you do need to kinda like, stand your ground on principle or whatever, but I do think those are rare times, right, in most marriages.

  • Right.

  • And so I think cultivating generosity around those conversations is really important meaning that A, like if we're talking about I wanna go hang out with a buddy one night, like so, so actually it's Jeff's birthday today so I'm gonna go and hang out with him tonight, this is a real-life example and Selena didn't even, I didn't even have to ask. She's like hey, Jeff's my best friend, hey, go hang out tonight with him, you know, have a good night and just a--

  • Right.

  • And so she was generous toward me, I didn't have to--

  • But it's not a regular battle that we fight.

  • No, no.

  • You know, it's not part of our regular rhythms of life, we've just kind of established that boundary that, you know, we can again ask each other and be generous in these conversations, but, you know, all in all our first disciples are each other and then our children, and then our neighbors and community, so operating from that vision--

  • Yeah.

  • Inside out kind of is where, is how we, yeah.

  • It does start there. And if you're not unified on those deep things these types of arguments will seem much more significant--

  • Sure, yep.

  • Than they should be--

  • True.

  • And they'll hold way more weight then they should be. So, I guess to answer your question Jen, is if, I would say, get on the same page. You might not be unified right now, but get on the same page about the big things, right, and then these types of arguments will have a greater context that they can operate within and that's where the, that's where generosity makes sense, that's where, you know--

  • Saying no to things.

  • Saying no to things to say yes to each other--

  • Right.

  • That makes way more sense when you're on the same page about--

  • Yeah.

  • Why you exist as a couple.

  • Well and I like that you took essentially Ephesians 5:25 and that, you know, that calling to lay down our lives for our wives and love them as ourselves, that's that generosity word. Like of course we're usually first generous to ourselves, right?

  • True. Like well I deserve this or I need the time. So I appreciate that perspective on that, that scripture. And, you know, as being one of the marks of a marriage after God, this oneness idea, I feel like, you know, what you're saying is, all those little decisions that kind of start developing and the way of thinking, you know, it's not like you throw your hobbies out and like you never have them.

  • Right.

  • It's just not the, it's not the default position, the default is what can we do together and so the exception of the rule is like in those times of like, absolutely like, you know, your wife is confident in your, your oneness with her and she's actually excited to let you go have this time and, and you probably would agree with this, whenever that happens in our life often I, actually it's not as enjoyable--

  • Yes

  • By myself, I'm just like oh I wish my--

  • Jen was here.

  • Yeah.

  • That's funny.

  • You know and there's times that that's not, you know, not the case, but the oneness I feel like that, that when you said, you know, focus on those big, you know those big topics, I almost feel like it's focus on the, what's the one direction we're going together and then that kind of sets the tone for everything. Because if we both have a different goal in mind, like I want my life to look like this, I want my life to look like this, then every single conversation, every single topic will be a fight because unless it, the other person has aligned with my direction--

  • Right.

  • It's going to be a fight, it's gonna be a struggle. And so finding that unifying mission, which of course like you said, we all have the same mission, you know, if it's the word of God, if it's what he's doing in this world then we can't, it's easier to lay down--

  • Right.

  • My pride, my hobbies, my, because I'd be like, well, like currently in this moment that's not going to fulfill our big mission, you know, of being together 'cause now I'm not with my wife in one and we're--

  • At odds.

  • And there will be a lot of kind of gray, right? So that's like the black and white piece, right, where if a younger couple--

  • Yeah.

  • Right, they're just, they're heading into marriage, or they just got married, or maybe a couple that's been married for awhile, but they're new to their faith, right? The first piece is okay, what is that mission as people who follow Christ. If we believe he is who he says he is then that should bear weight on every aspect of our lives, okay, then that's the big, that's where we're headed, right, and it's good for a couple, we always encourage couples--

  • Yeah.

  • To sit down and articulate these things in what we call, a family vision statement, and it's, that includes their mission which is gonna be some, some, what's the word, expression, of the great commission, right? So however that--

  • Yeah.

  • Plays out in their life, it's gonna be an expression of that if they call themselves Christians and then below that you have, and a lot of couples never do this and it's so important.

  • We hadn't done it until 10 years in our marriage at least.

  • Yeah, and it changed everything--

  • Yes.

  • And I'm not exaggerating, it changed everything about, in this topic specifically, in unity, because we went through and found in mind our personalities, our relationship for what we call core values, right? So a lot of times we say oh, like in a business context you say our core value is quality, customer service, right? These are ideals, right?

  • Yeah.

  • But for a marriage the core values are things that you actually are whether you know it or not. Things that you care about whether you know it or not, right? So for us we had to realize that we really value, one of 'em is community, right, that's part of that because obviously we're Christian, but we value family and friends and deep relationships with fewer rather than shallow relationships with more, that was one of 'em.


  • Adventure, it sounds kind of funny, but adventure's a core value of ours meaning that we wanna live lives that are kinda on the edge, right?

  • Oh, I would agree with that one.

  • Yeah and we're always kind of--

  • Yeah we use the word extraordinary.

  • Yes.

  • Yeah, I love it. You guys use that in the beginning of your podcast.

  • Um-hum, yeah.

  • Got another one and I can keep going on, I think there's only five, like we tried to keep 'em as few as possible. And then this is part that you were talking about Aaron where you get kind of the expressions that, that kind of, I'd say the more grayer parts of this, is like okay, so how are we gonna decorate our house, right? Or what kind of house are we gonna invest it, not just buy, but invest in because of these core values?

  • Yeah.

  • And so, and those, that third part of the family vision statement is what we call the, envision statement. So like we envision, one of our envision statements is we envision a family that laughs together, we envision a home that is welcoming to, to friends--

  • Everyone, yeah.

  • And strangers and people and we can feed them. So what, that has all kinds of implications for how we actually set up our lives. How big is our table, right? Like how big is our living room, yeah.

  • They make all the small decisions in essence easier, because they've already got, instead of just starting from scratch every single time on the decision like, well what do we want? You're like well, does this fit into our, what we want?

  • Yep, that's exactly right.

  • Exactly.

  • You know are we gonna spend a thousand hours on this project if it means sacrificing--

  • Yeah.

  • These other things--

  • Right.

  • That are core to what we love.

  • And what I love about this is it's, you know, we always talk about well you gotta be on the same page, like that's how you're one, that's how you build unity.

  • It's an easy phrase, yeah.

  • It's an easy phrase to say, but I feel like this is such a practical way to actually get on the same page because you put it down on one page literally.

  • I feel like in the oneness side of things of being able to communicate and we're gonna get into a little bit of this idea of transparency, is once you've both verbalized what oneness looks like, what we agree with, what we believe as a team, what's our central focus. The accountability part of it, you know, of oneness, is hey how you're currently acting or making a decision doesn't align with what we, what you say you believe and what we have agreed on. And we can kind of use those, those foundational things, again, if it's Christ, we can look at each other and be like, hey like that's not really aligning with what we believe in the Bible is it? Like we've said the Bible is a core value of our home and what we align our life with. So I like that you, you know, putting those things down, you guys both have agreed that those are who you are as a family, how you wanna lead, how you wanna live, it makes oneness a lot more practical instead of this ambiguous idea of like, okay, like yeah, we'll, you know, we'll have the same bank account, sure, which is another practical way, but it's not the only thing it's just a piece of the puzzle.

  • Yeah, yeah.

  • Yeah, yeah, so--

  • And it takes time too. I wanna make a note like I think--

  • A life time, yeah.

  • So many people sit down and they're like, hey, here's, we're gonna take this evening and we're gonna do our family vision statement and then we'll be done forever. And it took us probably three months to get our first draft and then we revisit it--

  • Kind of after big life things like if you, if you have children and you've never had children before so maybe some of your values, or just the way you wanna spend your time because you now have this other person--

  • Yes.

  • You know, it changes everything and...

  • Or you move geographically--

  • Right.

  • Or you get a new job, or God calls you to something and you feel like it's stirring, but it hasn't quite started yet.

  • Yeah, and take time to get there and then you can, you're free to revisit it.

  • Right.

  • So I just think that, I just wanna make sure that people don't feel like they need to get this ironed out in like one sitting-- Yeah.

  • That's good.

  • 'Cause it takes some time to think and pray over it and articulate the ideas.

  • Well that's why we call it a mark of a marriage after God. It's not, it's a thing that we're aiming for.

  • Yeah.

  • Not a, oh we are today perfectly have it ironed out.

  • Yeah.

  • It's like, oh no, this is how we are gonna operate.

  • Yeah.

  • We're gonna think this way and pursue this direction because it's Biblical and it's gonna help us fulfill what God has for us.

  • So as you guys have been pursing oneness in your marriage and being one and actively making choices as one, how have you seen that amplify your effectiveness in building God's kingdom?

  • Oh man, in every meaningful way. Aaron you mentioned going out, right? If you don't feel like, maybe Jen says, hey yeah, go out and have fun or whatever and do something that you wanted to do how you almost don't even like it anymore 'cause she's not there.

  • Yeah, it changes you.

  • You'd rather be with your family. Like that, that sentiment I think, that's just a small I think shadow of truth in terms of that sentiment how it actually impacts your entire life--

  • Right.

  • When you realize I don't wanna do anything, A, I don't wanna do anything that's not in lockstep with what God is doing, I wanna go where God is moving, I wanna be, I wanna move with him, right, and in that sense I want our family to be in unity and doing that too. Like we, here's a really silly example, but we needed to buy a vehicle--

  • Yeah.

  • The last year, about a year and a half ago, and it's a big purchase--

  • I know I hate it, I hate those decisions.

  • You know next to a house it's probably one of the bigger--

  • It's hard.

  • Yeah, yeah, and we had been kind of wracking our brains, we'd had been, you know, a one-vehicle family, but we had just, we had just had our second daughter and so it was time. It was time to like, to actually face this decision and we just didn't have peace on it, didn't have peace. And it was probably like six months of Selena looking at different cars, looking at different, you know, all the different specs and the different prices and where to get it and all that kind of stuff until finally we had all this stuff, kind of like here's our priorities, we had all that out so we knew what we were looking for we weren't gonna go and just spend a bunch of money. We had an actual like--

  • Budget.

  • Budget--

  • Budget envision for the car.

  • Anyway when that decision finally came to make that decision God was so faithful and provided just this really obscure way for us to find the exact right vehicle that he, that was what we were looking for.

  • Wow.

  • And we do think it's a little grace of God to make that plain to us in what happened and that was so easy by the time that, that we felt like we were in unity in that together and we were in lockstep with him that we just walked up and we drove it and we just said, yeah, we'll take it.

  • It was like, there was very little like haggling, all that kind of stuff, it was already there--

  • Yeah.

  • And so I feel like that happens in big decisions too if you're in ministry right? So you're trying to make a decision in ministry and you find unity, that's where you're just, your heart is only at peace in unity when you get to that place.

  • And peace and unity, I think that's, I mean isn't that the essential definition of peace?

  • Right.

  • There's no chaos, there's no division, I love that.

  • That's so good man, it's so true.

  • Alright, so one of the other seven marks of a marriage after God is transparency. So what does transparency look like in your marriage?

  • We kind of live by this lights on, windows open, doors open, sort of theme. That kind of sets the tone for, not only our marriage, but for our household, we, you know, there's no secrets. There might be some surprises here and there, but we really try to be intentional about like our vocabulary. But the whole transparency thing I think has become a greater peace to our life because of, you know, things like social media and posturing and kind of showing our best moments--

  • Yeah.

  • And not really being transparent and honest about what our life looks like. You know, how many times do you meet somebody that you maybe have seen on Instagram and you're like, whoa, you're like way different than what I thought.

  • Yeah.

  • You're

  • You're, oh just like me.

  • Yeah, you're normal.

  • Oh good. Yeah and I think that it's so important especially, you know, in unifying us, transparency is such a huge component because if I, if we're not honest with each other about kind of our ugly and about the sin that we face and the dark corners of our heart that we just don't wanna show to anybody, we're not allowing our spouse that space to truly love us and we're not allowing ourselves to live in that freedom that God's calling us to when we are in the light and God sees all that, he knows. We always talk about, right, we're always talking about like when we sin, like God doesn't, he sees the sin, but he also sees the deep motivation of that sin and he still loves us. He knows the depth of why it happened, why we made those decisions and that love is so liberating to us, right, it should be because he's leading us down this path of being known and fully loved, right, and being committed. And so transparency is, I don't think you can have full unity and full oneness without complete transparency.

  • Yeah.

  • I'm gonna be bold there and say that.

  • That's why we tied these two marks together is 'cause we believe the same thing that they're so closely tied.

  • Yeah, and it's, if you're not completely transparent I think it does also hinder your ability to experience and express love. And what I mean by that is that if I, if I say, hey Selena I love you, here's this part of my life that you get to see, but I keep part of it to myself, whether it's shame or a sin, or habitual sin, you know, for guys it's, you know pornography is always a big thing, right, or some sort of thing that I'm hiding from you. Whenever you say, oh I love you as my wife, I'll always be like, yeah, but if you, in my head I'll be like if you really knew me you wouldn't love me. So I'm not gonna, I can't, you don't actually love me, right? It kind of invalidates, until you actually say, here's everything that I've, all my good, bad, and the ugly, and so until you actually do that you're not gonna experience what it means to actually be loved as deeply as I feel we were called to. You know you asked, how does this actually play out? So Aaron I know you've shared some of your, you guys have shared your story with pornography and all that kind of stuff.

  • Yeah.

  • God is very redemptive when we repent and turn from that sin and run to him and run to each other, right? And that's, so the way we do that in our marriage is, you know, that's a guy and anybody who's on the internet you have to be on guard always for like sexual sin, just guy or girl, like you have to be on guard because there's always, always different ways that it gets in front of your face, right, you never even try to get it. And so I, we have an open kind of conversation always where she, the rule is you can ask me, she can ask me anything, anything and I just, I promised no matter how hard it is I'll never lie, right, and that's easier said then done, but it gets easier and easier and so. And then there's obviously open, you know, we have the phone-drop test is another fun little tool that we tell couples about is that at any moment you should drop your phone on the table and your spouse should be able to open that up and go through every app, every email, every text, everything.

  • Oh yeah.

  • I've never heard that term before, but I like that term.

  • You know we've never done that term, we do that, like we know each other's passwords, there's never any--

  • Yep.

  • Giving that permission.

  • Yeah there, we, yeah we use the word permission if she wants she can grab my phone and--

  • But I like that, the drop the phone test.

  • And it's not, and the thing distinguishes couples 'cause a lot of couples would be like, well what about my privacy, you know, and A, you don't have privacy in marriage.

  • That's the opposite of, that's the opposite of transparency.

  • And when

  • But B, it's not about, it's not about you're losing privacy it's about building trust and so you kind of, we flip it on it's head and that it's about showing you have nothing to hide as opposed to like, I should be able to hide something if I want to, like that's what privacy, that's all privacy is.

  • Right.

  • And in marriage there's none of that.

  • And there's two stark contrasts in this idea of like, you know, you say, 'cause we've had couples say the same thing, like well, you know, that's just not, there's no trust there if they have to check my phone. But if you even have that heart in the first place you are hiding something, and right, and so if I'm telling my wife, hey, I want to walk in purity and holiness before my father in heaven and God has given you as my helper and therefore you have permission at any time to walk with me and help me be this, that man. That's a different position of, well you should just trust me and you shouldn't have to look at my phone.

  • It's humility versus pride.

  • Right.

  • It's a whole different posture.

  • And what happens is, my wife rarely has a desire to do that unless she has a spirit like, you know, hey there's something I'm discerning that, you just seem off, are you walking okay? And usually she doesn't even have to look at my phone where I am at, like you're saying, I confess, right?

  • Um-hum, yeah.

  • Because my purpose is not to just remove the shame and feel better in my marriage I actually fear God and want to please him. And so it's such, it's such a different mentality of just protecting my flesh versus, no actually I wanna be made like Christ. And--

  • Yep, just nailed it.

  • Wow, wow.

  • Yeah, so transparency is an important, actually when I asked the question I was thinking about this idea of transparency. And the point of transparency is to see through and, you know, if we're lights in this world, the light doesn't come from us it comes from Christ and the more opaque we are, like the harder to see through we are, the less light can emit from us. The less that light can be seen in us because you can't see through us to Christ--

  • Yeah.

  • And I feel like that needs to be first exemplified in marriage and it's--

  • So if you're not transparent you're not being effective for spreading the gospel.

  • Well you can't--

  • Yep.

  • You're a liar.

  • And actuallY this mental, so you just hit the nail on the head in terms something we are right in the thick of.

  • Yeah.

  • Because we, you've used all the buzz words Aaron, it's so funny. I don't know if you're reading my mail or what, but we are writing a new book, it's totally, we're writing a new book called, See Through, and it's that--

  • Wow.

  • That whole attitude of we are called to not be opaque, but to be see through, transparent, and to--

  • So that God's light can shine--

  • God' light shines through us--

  • Oh yes.

  • Albeit imperfectly.

  • Yeah.

  • Because we see it currently dimly, yeah.

  • In a stained-glass window, right, you've got different colors, different shapes, different fractures, but it ends up being a beautiful picture because God's light is what makes it beautiful, even more beautiful than if we were perfect and, you know, and perfectly clear, right? He somehow uses our sin to make himself more glorified and more known because we live in a sin-filled world, but he's redeeming it right? And so you're absolutely, you nailed it, it's like that idea of being totally, of being not opaque, being see-through and letting God shine through you. I mean that's, that's what transparency is all about it's not about how can I just have what I want it's how can I be a vessel through which God shines.

  • It's awesome.

  • That's so powerful you guys. Thank you so much for sharing that and now I'm really excited to read that.

  • Yeah.

  • Yeah. I don't know if our publisher's gonna be mad at us for saying that or not. It's not official--

  • It's not an official name.

  • If we're writing the book it's the unofficial name, so.

  • That's awesome.

  • Yeah, I love that, oh man so I think, yeah I just also think, just in the terms of marriage, a mark of a marriage after God. When we're not transparent we're not, we're pursuing ourselves, right, you know, because if I'm hiding sin, or if I'm hiding, you know, experiences in my life or things I'm going through, like you said, all we're doing is masking and we're covering up and we're trying to present ourselves a certain way. So we're not actually after God at all, we're after ourselves, and avoiding some discomfort or some pain, and so the picture we're trying to show, that opaqueness, we're just trying to show, we're manufacturing something which is not love at all 'cause I'm not letting my wife love me I'm letting her love a picture of me. You know and I'm not loving her by hiding who I am. I'm hiding, we're hiding the truth which is unloving, so, and, so I just love that you guys are advocates of that, that you not only advocate it, but you walk it out.

  • We found it to be transformational on a personal level, both my relationship with, our relationship as spouses, but also our relationship with friends of the same sex--

  • Oh yeah.

  • Right, that's transformational in that sense as well, but also in community with other families and other couples. We've had some really, some of the most transformational and brutal conversations that we've had have been in context of church community and that's such a big part of transparency. I think a lot of couples have kind of forsaken that part of the church, right? They kind of figure church is a Sunday morning thing, it's a Easter and Christmas thing, it's a check the box on a demographic-quiz thing, like I'm a Christian. But like that's how, that's how we're called to live in Christian community, right, and so transparency there, like we can never, we always push couples like, we consider ourselves like air-traffic controllers, right, people that come to us for answers--

  • Yeah.

  • We're just like, we just point them to Christian community--

  • Exactly.

  • 'Cause that's how you can move through it.

  • Can you share some of the benefit for those listening, like what's the benefit of being transparent with other believers?

  • So your holiness and righteousness, you know, unto the Lord I think is the biggest benefit because they'll be able to look at your life more objectively.

  • Well and as a marriage we kinda, some friends of ours, we kind of walk, we go to them when we have kind of a struggle and we can't seem to figure it out, we feel a little stuck. And we'll go to them knowing that, you know, when you have dinner with another couple you're gonna heed your words a little bit more, right, you're gonna--

  • And you're gonna filter a little bit more, yeah.

  • You're gonna have that, you're gonna make sure you're saying what you want to say--

  • What you mean to say not just--

  • Yes, what you feel like saying. And so, but having those, having that couple that we know is grounded in the gospel, that knows the word, that is in tune with the spirit, that loves the Lord and wants, they're advocating for us, they're not trying to pin us against each other, but they're advocating for our relationship, that's huge.

  • And they love us.

  • And they love us--

  • Yeah.

  • And they know us and we want them to know us. Like we want to be known by them--

  • Yeah.

  • Cause we can't see, we're stuck--

  • Yeah.

  • We can't seem to figure this out we need our community, we need them to point us back to Jesus, point us back to the word, the Bible, ask us the hard questions and in love knowing that we're gonna get past this we're gonna get through this.

  • In our little circle of church we have this, we turned the word gospel into a verb, right, so when somebody's like forgetting who they are in Christ we'll say-- Yeah, preach the gospel.

  • We'll just gospel you for a second.

  • Yes.

  • We'll remind you--

  • Yeah.

  • That God is good, that he's sovereign, and he's gracious and he's working in this and that's just so often, like being transparent. If you go, like most church groups you go to, you're just like, oh let's talk through the curriculum, let's talk through the study and we'll just go home and we'll have--

  • Yeah what are you learning there?

  • We'll have food and we'll go home. But man church community is so much more then that. You say, hey how are you actually means, how are you doing, not just an excuse for you to say good, busy, right?

  • Yeah.

  • And then for the listener to sit there and actually listen and wait, you know, even if that means you have to wait a little bit longer instead of just passing by.

  • Right because you truly are asking, not just facetiously or, you know, it's the norm.

  • Yeah.

  • You know, oh hey, how's it going?

  • Yeah.

  • You know I think about, you know, the reason we bring this up, the purpose of you guys being one in your marriage and being transparent in your marriage and all of the other marks that we talk about in the book, isn't just for your marriage, that's the place you practice doing exactly what you just said, because we're commanded in the word of God to be in one mind and spirit with the body of Christ. And in the same way you can't be one with your wife without being transparent and you can't be one with your husband without being transparent and you can't have that unified, unification, without that singleness of mission. It's the same thing in the body of Christ, what you're exactly saying, is the whole reason it's important for us to have this mentality in our homes.

  • Yeah.

  • Yeah, well how you love Christ's bride, how you love Christ if you don't love his bride, right?

  • You can't it's impossible. No, you can't, that's why I get so--

  • Yeah, John tells us we are liars if we say that we love God and don't love his people.

  • Right, right, that's why I get so just, I think furious is the right word, when you see like Christians that are just constantly just kind of making satire, making fun of the local church, right? I know that Christians are weird in some regards--

  • Good, yeah we, should be a difference.

  • In a lot of cultural things. And then kind of make, their cringey, right, but there's also like, this is the, this is the bride of Christ and so there's, there always has to be that edifying kind of redemptive side to those types of conversations. And so, yeah, I think in your marriage this is just, yeah, that's why I love marriage, it's a mirror of the gospel in so many different, it's like a multifaceted diamond, right?

  • Yeah, yeah.

  • There you go.

  • It's just, you see 'em at different angles and you see the gospel in it and that's one of the things is when you learn how to, you know, be transparent with your wife and with each other in marriage and that kind of gives you an idea of what it's like to be transparent with Christ's bride, with the church, right, and actually live in vulnerability, not just so you can look, you know, navel gaze and feel bad about yourselves and go home and be ashamed, but so that you can work toward righteousness, so you can be known, and so you can experience--

  • Yeah.

  • A greater depth of grace and love, right?

  • That's so good. You guys are such good encouragers and advocates for marriage online through your ministry, through your resources and everything. One quote that stood out to me that you guys had posted awhile back said this, "transparency, the best opportunity for intimacy happens when you're fully known and fully loved." And I just love that, I love the way you worded it, I love everything about it, and I think so many people are craving that right now. They're craving intimacy, they wanna be fully loved and maybe they don't know how to be fully known because they're afraid. And so I just wanna ask, how would you encourage those listening today, those people who want to experience this intimacy whether it's with God, with their spouse, with other believers, but they're afraid or something's holding them back, what would you say to them?

  • Well I think it's important to,, excuse me, know what God's word says, you know, about fear and how perfect love drives out fear, there's no fear in perfect love. And so understanding that, you know, first of all we are loved, we are loved in Christ, and our identity can be rooted there because of what he's done and because of who he is.

  • Yep.

  • And,, excuse me, because he loves us, he knows us fully and completely and he loves us fully and completely and it's unconditional and he knows the depths of our souls and he still loves us and that's, and I think that's such an example and model for us, right, because only like, I don't, I don't feel any more experienced love like Christ to the extent, I can't, I don't know how I'm trying to say this, I experience it to the extent that I'm like transparent and known, right?

  • Right.

  • The more that I'm known the more that I am able to show my weaknesses and confess pride or, you know, just my anger or whatever. The more I, I am hopeful of, like your love Ryan, but hopeful also and knowing and just being able to rest in the fact that God loves me still, even in this moment and he's still like, while we were still sinners he died.

  • Yep.

  • Yeah.

  • Wow.

  • That reality is I think the path, understanding that full reality is the path toward the side of transparency that, that will get you to that side of feeling fully loved, right? So--

  • Yeah.

  • That fear, and Selena you're speaking to it so well, is that fear is what keeps us from taking that leap because we feel like, well what if I jump and they don't love me?

  • Yeah.

  • Yeah.

  • Or what if I jump and my spouse can never forgive me--

  • Yeah.

  • Or our relationship's never the same and to be honest it probably will never be the same, but if we trust God it will be better.

  • Yeah.

  • It will be different and better.

  • And how powerful.

  • And there's joy.

  • And how powerful it is when we do and we are transparent and we are still loved. It's such a powerful experience.

  • Yeah, I think of that scripture that says, he who has been forgiven much loves much. And I--

  • That's the one I was trying to think of

  • And I often, but I've often thought of it as like, oh, maybe I struggle with love because I didn't have much to be forgiven of and other people have and, but that's not what that scripture says. The scripture is saying, he who loves much, or he who has been forgiven much loves much, and the idea is that we all have been forgiven like that man who owed the ten thousand talents to that ruler. We are not the other one, we are the one that owes the unfathomable amount and so--

  • It's like 70 billion.

  • Yeah whatever it is.

  • Dollars equivalent or something.

  • And the point is, is the one who recognizes how much he has been forgiven loves much. And that often--

  • Yeah.

  • That has to be, you know, it says Jesus knows us, or he wants to know us, right? And we become known by confession, by transparency, by say, Lord this is who I am. And he already knows all, right, so, but he wants us--

  • To offer it.

  • To offer it to him, like here is who I am, here's what I've done, here's how I think, change me, have it, you know.

  • Right. Well it goes all the way back to the garden, right, when Adam and Eve sinned and they're hiding--

  • I know.

  • And God's walking in the garden and says, where are you, it's not that he like, he lost them, he wasn't like, oh shoot, where'd they go? They ran away-- He wants them to reveal themselves.

  • They got out of the cage. Like he wants us to have--

  • Recognize.

  • That realization--

  • Yeah.

  • Of our depth of need and that's what we call, I mean it's not just us calling it, but it's the full gospel, right?

  • Yeah.

  • Yep.

  • The gospel is two parts, one I am extremely sinful, lost, and without hope, that's the first part. Then, so that's the bad news which makes, makes room for the good news, makes way for the good news which is, Christ has paid that price, he has brought you close, he has given you hope, he has saved you. And so if you can picture with me like a ramp that's going up, like if that's our view of God, the holiness of God, and then a ramp that's going down is our view of ourself, right, our view of our need and our depravity without Christ. The gap that it creates in between the top of the ramp and the bottom of the ramp, I'm looking, it's like a big PAC-Man thing, and that gap is the need for our savior. So the greater view of God the lower view of ourselves, the greater the need for a cross, or Christ, to fill that gap to make, and so that makes much of Christ, right?

  • And less of us.

  • And so if you--

  • Yeah.

  • And less of us, and so it makes for a really big cross. So if minimize God's holiness we minimize our sin, we have a tiny Jesus. We have an impotent Jesus.

  • Yeah.

  • Right and so that's, that's how I think we overcome that fear and realize like, this fear that I have of being rejected is no match to the fear that I have without Christ, but I've been given Christ.

  • Praise God.

  • I have identity with him and therefore I can be transparent with you trusting that my identify is secure in him regardless of what happens here and he will work it for my good, right, Romans 8:28.

  • Thanks for preaching the gospel man. We, you know, that's been on our hearts more is just more and more preaching of the gospel, we just, we need people to recognize that we are sinners--

  • Yes.

  • And we are retched and we deserve nothing and yet God loved us so much he sent his son to save us if we believe in his name, you know?

  • Changes everything.

  • Oh yeah. So I wanna ask you a last question before we close in prayer. In your own words--

  • Sure.

  • What is a marriage after God?

  • I'd say a marriage after God is one that is obviously Christ-centered and is transparent and unified and on mission to make his name great.

  • Praise God.

  • You just used all the buzz words right there.

  • There you go.

  • I've been keeping notes.

  • Buzz words are good, yeah.

  • No, I fully agree with that. I think on mission is key, but the thing, that's a really loaded statement, right--

  • Yeah.

  • When you're on mission that means so many different things. Transparency is one of those things, being unified in mission is one of those things.

  • Self sacrifice.

  • So.

  • The gospel--

  • Yes.

  • All of that.

  • Yes.

  • Yeah, Christ-centered and on mission and because of that transparent in all, all of the above so.

  • Amen.

  • So hopefully that answered the question.

  • Yeah.

  • Yeah no it's great.

  • Thank you guys so much for being with us today this has been incredible. I just know that our listeners are walking away today with a lot to think about and hopefully feel inspired. Where can they follow you guys if they wanna hear more from you?

  • Thank you guys, you guys are amazing, you've been a resource to us since day one.

  • Yep.

  • And it's just, man, we love.

  • I love how the Bible just pours out of you guys.

  • Yes.

  • So good.

  • Thank you.

  • Even though we live five hours away I feel like, I feel like that's not an excuse, we should hang out a lot more. So it's on the record now you guys.

  • Right.

  • We'll see you this year.

  • As far as resources go, we just, we have books at, and,, just devotionals. We also have our podcast, The Fierce Marriage, podcast, so if people want us they'll find us.

  • Yeah, just Google, Fierce Marriage, they're everywhere.

  • Yes.

  • There you go.

  • Yeah, you guys have been doing this almost as long as we have, huh?

  • No, you guys are the original gangsters.

  • Yep.

  • You guys were in like three or four years, before and Jen's the original gangster.

  • Yeah Jennifer is, yeah.

  • It has been awhile.

  • Awesome. So Jennifer why don't you pray for us and then we'll close out.

  • Okay, dear Lord we pray we would be husbands and wives who pursue intimacy with you. We pray we would make ourselves known to you and known to each other. Help us to walk with each other in an understanding way and to love unconditionally. Thank you for the gift of oneness in marriage and what it represents. We pray we would operate as one every day in our marriage relationship. Holy Spirit continue to empower us to do so. Help us to be transparent with one another. Help us to be great listeners as well. May truth be exposed and may your presence be evident in our lives. Thank you for marriage and thank you for salvation. You are a good God and we love you. May our hearts align with yours as we chase boldly after you and pursue a marriage that reflects your love story. In Jesus' name, amen.

  • Amen.

  • Amen.

  • Amen.

  • Thank you everyone that's been listening to this episode. We love the Fredericks and we'd love for you to go check them out at their podcast, The Fierce Marriage podcast. And also get their books.

  • Yeah.

  • Their books are really good. And so, thanks for listening. We have a bunch of more episodes, a bunch of more interviews coming up in the coming weeks so please stay tuned. We'll see you next week.

  • [Announcer] Did you enjoy today's show? If you did it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also if you're interested you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Feb 27, 2019
MAG 02 - The War On Our Effectiveness w/ Dale + Veronica Partridge From Real Christianity

Order Your Copy Of Marriage After God Today!

We interview Dale + Veronica Partridge from Real Christianity Podcast

Quote From Marriage After God Chapter 2: The War On Your Effectiveness

"If the enemy can get you to question the things that you know to be
true, then he can get you to doubt what you are doing." - Aaron &
Jennifer Smith, Marriage After God

“If the devil can divide you and your spouse, then he can conquer your
marriage, stripping away your effectiveness for God” - Aaron &
Jennifer Smith, Marriage After God

Dear Lord,
We pray nothing would hinder our effectiveness in ministering to each other in marriage. We also pray nothing would hinder our effectiveness in sharing the gospel in this world. We pray you would defend us against the enemy. We pray his plans to divide us and destroy marriage would not prevail. Protect us from the enemy’s schemes! Thank you for equipping us with armor so that we can stand firm in our faith. We pray our flesh would not get in the way of our effectiveness. Help us to have self-control and walk in wisdom. If we do experience attacks or hardships may you be our strength, hope, and endurance to run this race with perseverance. If our flesh does hinder us may we confront our sin and repent so that we may be vessels of your glory as we share with others the power of salvation in our lives. We submit our marriage to you and ask that you Use us to do all the wonderful things you have prepared for us to do. May your name be glorified.
In Jesus’ name, amen!

[Aaron] Hey we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

[Aaron] And today we're in part two of the Marriage After God series and we're gonna be talking with Dale and Veronica Partridge about The War On Our Effectiveness. Welcome to The Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.

[Jennifer] I'm Jennifer also known as Unveiled Wife.

[Aaron] And I'm Aaron also known as Husband Revolution.

[Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade.

[Aaron] And so far we have four young children.

[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media.

[Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage. Encouraging them to walk in faith every day.

[Aaron] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one. Full of life.

[Aaron] Love.

[Jennifer] And power.

[Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God.

[Jennifer] Together.

[Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.

[Jennifer] This is Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] Thank you everyone for joining us today. We just wanna take a moment and just encourage you to leave us a review. That's just one way that you can support this podcast and get the message out about the podcast that helps other people find the Marriage After God podcast and it's real quick, you just gotta leave a star rating review, or you can leave a comment review which always encourages us.

[Aaron] Also we just want to encourage you to get a copy of our new book, Marriage After God. It's what this entire series is based on and we'd love for you to read through that as a couple. You can go to and support us in that way.

[Jennifer] So today we have Dale and Veronica Partridge, which are some of our closest friends, thank you for being here.

[Veronica] Hi thanks for having us.

[Dale] We are excited.

[Veronica] We're excited,

[Veronica] To be here.

[Dale] Yeah, this is, I think ten years in the making.

[Veronica] Just about.

[Dale] In terms of our relationship.

[Aaron] This episode.

[Aaron] Oh relationship I gotta.

[Dale] This episode probably, too, I guess.

[Jennifer] Awesome, well, could you just take a minute, and just introduce yourself to everyone listening.

[Dale] Yeah, I'll start here. We've been married, next week, will be nine years, and together--

[Aaron] On Valentines day.

[Dale] On Valentine's Day.

[Veronica] That's right, on Valentines day.

[Dale] We got married on Valentine's day. Long story short, but we didn't intend to get married on Valentine's Day. It just happened which is, again, part of a bigger story that we'll have to tell later. But, yeah, we got three kids, five, three and one. And we are in ministry. Also, we run a podcast, and house church, and are in the thick of it in terms of trials in 2018. And it seems that they're bleeding into this year as well. So, it's something that we're excited to share about, and talk about what it's like to be in ministry, and also suffer persecution, and resistance, and illness, and some of the things that come with it.

[Jennifer] So, could you just mention a little bit more about your guys' podcasts? Just, I'm sure people listening have already either been listening, or have known about it, but just in case they haven't, share a little bit about it.

[Veronica] Yeah we have a podcast. It's called Real Christianity. Where Dale and I talk about all aspects of walking the Christian life.

[Dale] Yeah and I think it's, we really try to come at it from a biblical perspective. I'd say that the number one review that people leave is that it's just bold, and they don't have that many places I think that, the number one crossover, is your guys' podcast. So everybody, you'd go just scroll to the bottom and it's like suggested podcasts, and it's Marriage After God. And so I think people are really looking for truth. Not watered down truth delivered gently, but truth. And I think that's what makes the episode, or the podcast little bit different.

[Aaron] Awesome.

[Jennifer] Awesome. Well we're excited to get to hear that boldness on this episode with you guys, and, yeah, we're just excited to jump in.

[Aaron] So here's an icebreaker question, I don't know if Veronica has read this beforehand. It's, what do you think is one thing that your spouse likes best about you?

[Dale] We can.

[Veronica] This is a family show right? What do I think Dale likes best about me? I think he likes that I'm a submissive wife.

[Jennifer] Oh wow bold.

[Veronica] And not in a bad way, like.

[Jennifer] That's good.

[Dale] She is, she's incredibly humble and

[Jennifer] Supportive.

[Dale] Supportive, and she plays that helpmeet role that the Bible talks about, naturally. It's not something that she actually has a fleshly thing against. She really, the Lord has blessed me with that, in terms of just a wife who just falls into that role really well. And the evidence of that, is that she's been able to, you know, teach our daughter what that looks like, and teach some of the other women, who might not naturally fall into that, just by her example.

[Jennifer] Wow, as in our own friendship, Veronica. you've been a huge testament to me, of what it looks like, and an encouragement, so,

[Veronica] Thank you.

[Jennifer] Yeah, I can say yep.

[Dale] It's a ministry.

[Veronica] Praise God.

[Jennifer] Yep. And yeah Dale, what does she like about you Dale?

[Veronica] What do I like about you?

[Dale] What do you like about me? I think I would say vision, the ability to tell us as a family where we're going, to understand through the lens of Scripture.

[Veronica] Yeah, give us direction.

[Dale] And I would say joyful.

[Veronica] Yeah, he is generally a very happy person.

[Dale] Which I didn't know about myself really, until I was married. I just thought I was a normal person.

[Aaron] Maybe you weren't joyful before you were married right?

[Aaron] Dale's so much happier now.

[Veronica] He's always been very happy, and joyful, and positive type of person to be around.

[Dale] Yeah like in the morning I'm up, smiling, excited, jump out of bed, and Veronica is like--

[Veronica] I'm just more of a slow riser, need my time.

[Dale] Give me a half hour.

[Jennifer] Awesome, well, thank you for letting our listeners know a little bit more about who you guys are. We're gonna jump into a quote from this chapter, chapter two of Marriage After God. It says, if the enemy can get you to question the things that you know to be true, then he can get you to doubt what you are doing.

[Aaron] Yeah and the reason we have this chapter in the book, The War On Our Effectiveness, is because you guys are actively pursuing God, and his ministry for your life, and using your gifts and talents for him. And we are too, and our encouragement to everyone listening is that they would do the same, in whatever that looks, whatever that looks like. And when we do that, there's, well, even when we don't do it, there's something keeping us from doing it. keeping us from being effective for the kingdom of God. And one of them is our enemy, you know, the devil, confusing us and convincing us that things that are true are not true. And so, we just we hope in this episode, it's not too heavy, but we wanna show the realities of the things in this world, and in us, that are keeping us from doing what God wants us to do.

[Jennifer] And what our response should be.

[Aaron] Yeah, and then, but also to encourage us that, hey, we all, all of us get to fight the same war, and get to take ground for God, despite it.

[Dale] Yep

[Aaron] So, that's what I hope to get out of this episode.

[Jennifer] Yeah, so, going back to that quote, and you know the enemy trying to get you to doubt you know what you're doing. Have you two ever wrestled with doubt about what God has you doing? And if you did, how do you navigate those times as a couple?

[Veronica] I'd say yeah, definitely, especially within this last year of 2018 going into 2019. We pretty much said yes to full-time ministry in January of 2018 and, within that week, we just kinda had attack after attack after attack after attack. Do you wanna expand on that more babe?

[Dale] Yeah I mean we have had so much resistance. The first response in your flesh is to go, I shouldn't be doing this. Maybe I should just stop doing ministry.

[Veronica] Maybe this is a no.

[Dale] Maybe this isn't what God wants us to do. And if that logic is true, then the Apostle Paul was outside of God's will, because his entire life was resistance. I mean, it's listed off in Second Corinthians, it's just like, yeah.

[Aaron]Yeah right.

[Dale] It is a, I think this year was a purifying of a true understanding of what the gospel really is, and what ministry really is. I wrote a scripture down, John chapter 9, verse 3, it's when the disciples are looking at this blind man that Jesus is about to heal. And everybody's coming up with their own ideas of why he's blind. And they asked the question like oh, so, was it him that sinned? Was it you know his parents that sinned? Is this a generational thing? Is this just like a curse on this man? Is he outside of the will of God? You know these are the types of questions that his disciples are asking, and he responds, neither this man nor his parents sinned. But that the works of God should be revealed in him. And so that the purpose of this man's blindness, his literal illness, at this point, was to glorify God. That he would be able to glorify God. Maybe in this specific moment, but maybe in other ways, post this moment. And so, that was a really, this is becoming, the natural reaction. Like in the book of Job, is that, oh we've done something wrong. The friend that's saying, oh maybe you've sinned, and you need to repent, or maybe you're not doing enough work for the kingdom. Maybe you're not reading your Bible enough. Like, what is it, why you guys are getting this many trials? And, just to go, hey you know what, we didn't do anything wrong. At this point in terms of, the Lord's happy with us, but it's that we would actually glorify God in our trials and our suffering, in our illnesses.

[Aaron] Right.

[Veronica] When we are weak he is made strong.

[Aaron] Yeah I love that. So going, talking about this idea that there's a war on our effectiveness, you know, we're talking about ministry, we're talking about preaching the gospel, we're talking about living the Christian life, moving his kingdom forward, his will be done on earth as it in heaven, right? You're talking about trials, which could absolutely be one thing that makes us ineffective for God. But, it's not the trial that makes us ineffective. What, would you say, is the thing that makes us, because we all go through trials. That doesn't necessarily mean we're being ineffective, but we can be made ineffective in the trial if, what happens if we, how we respond to that that makes us ineffective?

[Dale] I mean, I think that, just, there's so many ways that you can fall away from the truth. And, you know, we need to be walking. It says, I believe it's in Galatians, you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh, or walk in the spirit you will not fulfill the desires the flesh, and I think that when you get beaten down in your flesh, from illness, from trial, from emotional strain, if you don't stick into the truth, I'm talking labor over it, let it pour and wash your mind with it, it's really easy that you'll lose your effectiveness, because you're walking in your flesh and not in your spirit.

[Veronica] You become so discouraged that, yeah, if you are walking in the flesh you almost just kinda give up.

[Dale] You live in your emotions. You live in worry. You live in discouragement. You live in pain. And without the truths perspective on those emotions, you'll fall apart. And so, it's a constant replacing the lies of the enemy with the truth of God. And that is a practice that I say you need to do before the trials come. You don't build a defense you know when the attacker--

[Aaron] During the battle yeah.

[Dale] When the attacker is there. You need to be prepared for that, and that's something that we've wished we did more of, but you know it's training, training for these times.

[Jennifer] So what would you say for all those listening, are some practical ways you can do that. Getting into the word. What did your guys' daily life look like?

[Dale] Go for it.

[Veronica] Currently?

[Jennifer] Um-hm.

[Veronica] For us with just being attacked and attacked we've been so worn down. We've been having to say no to a lot of things. Way, I mean we were generally very much yes people when it came to having people over, going out, just, we like being with people, and so having to say no a lot has been very norm, our new normal. Sticking to our routines, making sure we're getting to bed on time, and then just making sure we're in the word, as well.

[Dale] And we're praying together and keeping a consistency there. I think that, you know, the Ephesians six chapter, verse on you know the armor of God. It's one of these, you almost like think of it as, oh what a really cool metaphor. When life starts to get real hard, that doesn't, it loses its metaphorical sense, and you go, I'm gonna make this very real in my life and I'm gonna read that passage just real quick. Not the whole thing but just the idea. He says in Ephesians six, 10 through 13, he says finally, my brother, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, this is a command that he's saying right there. Put it on.

[Aaron] Yeah the believer puts it on.

[Dale] You gotta put it on. It's not just sitting over there in the corner. That you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. And, in other words, if you don't put it on, you won't be able to stand against them. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this age. Against spiritual hosts of wickedness in heavenly places. This is clarity. It's really easy to go, what am I doing wrong? Why like why is this person mad at me? Why is this trial happening? Why are we fixing this thing in our church right now? I can't believe they think that about us, like you can easily make this thing about an earthly matter. Like, oh, I didn't exercise enough, I didn't eat right enough, like, whatever it is.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Dale] That's causing that. Verse 13, it says, therefore, take up the whole armor of God that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all to stand. And then he ends this little section a couple verses later, and he says, for which I am an ambassador in chains. And he's meaning that literally. This is one of the prison epistles of Paul.

[Aaron] Yeah, he's literally in house arrest.

[Dale] So you put this little picture together, and you go, this guy says put on the armor of God, yet this dude is straight-up persecuted and in chains. And, so it's not like put on the armor of God, then everything's gonna be great, prosperity gospel here we come. Life's good, I'm going to the beach.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Dale] It's put on the armor of God, and boom, I'm in jail. And so, it's a pretty interesting, counterintuitive thing to think about.

[Aaron] Veronica what are some of the things that you guys, 'cause they're listening, they're hearing that you guys are going through trials, and attacks, and stuff. Would you guys just list some of the things that you guys have been going through, not that it makes you special, because, the Bible tells us that we are all going to go through trials, that there will be suffering in this world. You guys just currently happen to be going through quite a bit in your life, and I wanna talk about something about that, after that, but would you guys just share what you mean by these things?

[Veronica] Yeah, so, literally, like I said earlier, the week we entered ministry, last in January of 2018, we got hit with influenza hard.

[Aaron] It's like months wasn't it?

[Dale] Like hospitalization.

[Veronica] It was 21 days. 21 days of a fever in our house, Jen took me to the hospital at one point to see if had pneumonia. And during that time, my son, my youngest, was six months old, so I pretty much completely lost my milk supply, because I was so sick. After that, the next month, all of our kids got RSV, which is a terrible respiratory virus. One of our children has asthma, so this was before we knew he had asthma. So he ended up in the emergency room probably three times within that sickness, just because he could not breathe.

[Aaron] Those were scary moments.

[Dale] Um-hmm.

[Veronica] Yes. We got the stomach flu for two weeks, you know, kind of scattered throughout everybody. Then our second son was diagnosed with asthma, because he is continuing to have these asthma attacks. You had skin cancer, I was bit by, likely, a tick, and contracted Lyme disease, and so, that's something new that we're navigating. The week after I got bit by the tick, we had a miscarriage.

[Dale] Then Veronica came down with appendicitis in the middle of the night, I had to rush her to the hospital, the antibiotics from the Lyme actually prevented her from, the surgeon and didn't have to take it out. After that, I passed a kidney stone for the first time in my life which was, it was so painful, that I called an ambulance on the way in, someone was driving me, to see if they could give me some sort of pain relief, just to get to the hospital. And then.

[Veronica] We almost had a fire evacuation, the day Jen gave birth to Truitt, cause I'm trying to run out to the hospital to be with you, but at the same time I'm like.

[Dale] Yeah, that was like a raging fire.

[Veronica] Grab that, grab that because there's a fire, just a few streets over from our street.

[Dale] Our son almost drowned in a pool.

[Veronica] Our youngest son almost drowned. You had bronchitis, or you had a cold that turned into bronchitis, and they were also checking you to see if you had pneumonia.

[Dale] And then we got I came down with gastritis.

[Veronica] Gastritis, and that's been months of--

[Dale] It's just been tough, it's been a--

[Veronica] Being healed.

[Aaron] Tough's a little, a little light of a word.

[Jennifer] I know I feel like everyone's just thinking back right now, taking the weight of what all that means.

[Veronica] And that's, yeah, that's not everything, just last week our daughter, you know, our daughter had a cavity, and I was supposed to take her in to just to get that filled, and then, when I go to take her in, all of a sudden, literally within a week and a half of the last time we were there, it became infected, so they had to pull her tooth out, which was unexpected. And not that that was like a big tragedy, but it was just like one more thing, I'm just like, oh okay, so we're dealing with my daughter getting her tooth pulled out today.

[Aaron] Well a lot of those smaller things, they are much larger when they're compiled with all of the other things. Now, in this season, 'cause you're still in some of this.

[Veronica] Yeah, we just had the stomach flu last week.

[Aaron] So, you know, but I'm thinking about like the bigger things, like you're still dealing with Lyme, and you probably gonna have that the rest of your life, and you guys are spiritually, and mentally, and emotionally navigating that stuff, and has there been times in over the last year and a half that you thought to yourselves, God we're doing all this for you, why is all this happening? Like these questions of like, almost well, like we don't deserve this?

[Veronica] Yeah I actually just said those words to Dale yesterday. I was crying because I had already known that, we've already kind of known that I have Lyme, but to get the final diagnosis, I just got that yesterday. And so we kinda knew that but it also came back with, I also have a co-infection, which we didn't expect, and so I was emotional, and I was upset about it. And I told Dale, I was like, don't you think we've gone through enough? Like haven't we gone through enough? Why is this happening? And then I just have to take a step back, and be, like you know, I have to have a bigger picture perspective right now. It's not, this isn't happening to me, it's, something is going on to glorify God. I don't maybe necessarily know what that looks like right now.

[Dale] The thing that I'm learning, is that you can't yearn for heaven, if the place that you're staying is great. And, that's been something that we've, when you read the passage in Revelation about, that all the tears will be wiped away, and there'll be no more pain and no more suffering. That doesn't really hit you, when you're on the beach in Hawaii and things are great. But it does hit you, when you're sick in bed, and you're just trial, after trial, after trial, and so.

[Veronica] And not only just sick in bed, but we have three little kids. Like our oldest just turned five last month, and so we have three of them, and they're all very needy you know, you guys have young kids. They all still very much need us, and so being sick and dealing with our own trials, on top of just taking care of the day-to-day of being a parent, it can be exhausting.

[Dale] Yeah, so it is just a hard, it's like the Lord is ripping out every false part of the gospel that we've ever believed, and telling us what it really is. It's it's not about prosperity or comfort, or blessing, or healing, and those things, they're in there, but the gospel is sent, the central part of the gospel is to glorify God, but it's sanctification, it's holiness, it's witness, it's eternity. Like these are the elements of it. Because, you know, and it needs to be universal. This gospel must apply worldwide. And when you have people that have cancer, and have AIDS, and have that are kidnapped, and taken away, and martyrs, you know that gospel's gotta to be true there, as well as it is on the guy that's sitting on the beach in Hawaii. And so it's just a, there's a quote, I forgot who said it but it says, it goes along the lines of, Jesus, it's hard to understand that Jesus is all you need, until Jesus is all you have. And that is where I think we've been, is it, you just go, oh, Lord like, I feel like it's the only thing I have on certain days, and so--

[Veronica] Totally I completely agree with that, and there have been definitely moments within this last year, where I am like, I need to read my Bible, like I need that time with him. Like, I need God, I need Jesus, and I need his Holy Spirit to speak to me through the word, just to get me through this day. Because, it really has been all we have many moments throughout this last year.

[Jennifer] I wanna commend you guys, because for that list that you just gave us of everything that you've walked through in this last year. I mean, pick one, and everyone listening would be like, that's hard enough to make me ineffective, like, I, that's hard, and yet through as you're listing these things, I'm thinking on my end of all the times you guys still showed up for us. Served us, gave us, you know, meals, when I was postpartum with Truitt, or you know, just, you were there, and not just for us, but for a lot of people in the community. And, I just wanna say thank you, that despite the hard things that you guys have been through, you still live your life biblically, and through serving, and I think that's bold.

[Veronica] The only through the strength that the Lord's given us. It's the only way we are able to do these things.

[Dale] Yeah thank you I mean it's we teach, one is that we don't wanna become hypocrites, and so we've when you you read the word and you teach these things you see that Jesus did so much while suffering. And participatory community is difficult, it's difficult when it's when everything's good and so we've, we teach that, and I think the Lord's brought us through a season of going, well do you really believe it?

[Aaron] Yeah, I mean, it just shows that God loves us. That he's willing to let us go through trials, and that he tests our faith. The Bible teaches us that, he tests us. And not unlike how we test our children. We give them opportunities to act a certain way, to believe a certain way, to respond a certain way. And so you know we're talking about trials currently, things that we have no control over, right? And how they could make us ineffective and, by what you said, if we're walking in the flesh, those trials will definitely make us ineffective 'cause we will crumble under them. You know that test, we'll fail it. But it sounds like if we, and the Bible teaches us this, if we walk in the spirit, we are not gonna gratify the desires of the flesh, and we can actually become more effective, by allowing the trial to do what it's meant to do. Sharpen us, train us, refine us.

[Jennifer] And glorify God.

[Aaron] And glorify God. So what are some other ways that the enemy tries to make us ineffective for the kingdom of God as in our marriages, like, what are some things, that if they're unchecked and if we're not aware, could totally destroy our effectiveness, remove us from what God is doing in us and through us?

[Dale] I mean, I think about, the enemy is all about division. And we know that that's just the chief element and you know, Jesus says in John 17, Father I pray that they are one as we are one, so that the world may know that you sent me. And so just the his desire is unity in his church in his bride. And, in marriages, oneness, and the two shall become one flesh. And so there's just this division element of marriage that, when we become divided, it is, I think, a tactic of the enemy, how does a wolf catch a sheep? He divides them.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Dale] From the flock. And so you know us keeping a really close communicate, you know what, it's not really exciting to talk to your spouse when things are all bad. And so, it's really hard to actually wanna go and have a conversation about our crappy life. Like that's how it feels like you know? Hey, let's go talk about this bad thing right now. And so, keeping a discipline, and I've always defined discipline as doing things you don't necessarily like, because it's something that's right. And so we have a discipline just to go I ask her several times a day how you doing? And sometimes she just gives me the quick answer, but sometimes she'll give me the full answer. And, so we work hard to try to stay unified. If we fight, get in a tiff, and we don't fight that often, this year's been harder, because it's just a harder year, but if we do get in an argument, we always pray. 'Cause if you can't pray together with your spouse after you're done arguing, then you're not unified. And, so there's things like that that we do, that we work hard to be unified. And then, I also I don't know if you wanna talk about just, community. Just making sure that we're in community with other people, not just ourselves but.

[Veronica] Yeah, I think that's been a really important aspect for us this last year. Proverbs 18:1 says a man who isolates himself seeks his own desire, and it's very easy to want to isolate when you've gone through everything that we've dealt with this last year. But, we're making sure that we are in community in daily talking to somebody in our church, and then also, looking into the, looking to the needs of the body, in the people in our church, and ministering to them in the ways that we can, because it takes the focus off of us, and it actually helps you work into some, work in somebody else's life, and minister to them, and glorify God. And it gives you perspective, as well, of whatever is happening in your own circumstances.

[Jennifer] Gosh, that's really good. Thank you guys so much for sharing that. So, how would you encourage those listening right now, to say yes to God, despite knowing that there will be opposition, despite knowing that hard circumstances will come, how do they, how can they say yes to God and, you know, have that courage to continue on, to keep serving people, to keep loving?

[Veronica] I think you need to take a step back, and have a bigger picture perspective. Because, if you're stuck and you're focused on your current circumstances and trials come, it's really hard to get through. You need to put on the whole armor of God and have an eternal perspective.

[Dale] Kingdom perspective.

[Veronica] Legacy.

[Dale] There's like multi-generational, like thinking about the kingdom of heaven.

[Veronica] Like, yeah, I'm looking back at this last year I'm like, you know how many more people we're able to minister, and relate with, and empathize with, because we walk through so many different things in such a short amount of time. Yeah, I mean, God's gonna be glorified no matter what.

[Dale] I think about, you know, there's a passage in scripture that the Lord, I feel like, delivered to me. I was praying and asking for a scripture, and I was like God you need to give me something. I was like in tears, and I flip open my Bible, and I put my hand down straight on Second Corinthians 12:9 through 10. And it's the verse of Jesus' reply to Paul after begging for his trial to leave him, and he says my grace is sufficient for you. My strength is made perfect in weakness, and he ends that section with, for when I am weak, then I am strong. Jesus' kingdom is counter-intuitive. Who's first? The one that's last. Who's strong? The one that's weak. And so, our perspective right now, is that we are the most effective we've ever been in ministry. Yet, we are the weakest we've ever been, and that is the, that perspective is so opposite of what our flesh wants to think. The alternative, for those that are worried about going into ministry because of trials, and or because of you know opposition, or because you might be persecuted for standing up for truth, I just go, I always tell people, what's the alternative? We have to remember that we are the beneficiaries of God's obedience, like, being obedient to God's Word. Not God, like, it's actually for the safest and the most joyful place that we'll be, is in God's will, under his word and under his ways. And I just go, you know, if you think being obedient is hard, try being disobedient. Try being outside of God's will. See what that feels like.

[Aaron] Well yeah, and even if disobedience makes us more comfortable temporarily, it eternallydamns us, like we don't want that. We want to be with our Father in heaven right? I love that, so the idea is that our perspective, the encouragement to those listening, is have a heavenly perspective. Like the picture is not about us, it's that we're a part of what God's doing in this world, and he's invited us to be a part of that. And when we say yes to God, it doesn't mean you know butterflies and rainbows, for some it might, but it means effectiveness for the gospel, it means that we are obedient, wherever that leads us. And to some, it's much more suffering than others, and for some, it's much more prosperity than others. That's why, you know, we don't believe in the prosperity gospel, because it's not universal. But that doesn't mean some might not have, might have prosperity or not.

[Dale] Sure.

[Aaron] That's not how the gospel works. It's God's providence it's what God wants, and saying yes to him is the best thing we can do.

[Dale] I mean, Paul,

[Aaron] Yeah, trusting him.

[Dale] Paul talks about that he's been in times of abundance and times of very little and we have to remember.

[Aaron] We learn to be content in both.

[Dale] Be content both, and we've been that way too we've had abundance and we've had the place that we're at now. But we we always like to pick our Bible character and go yeah that's like me. And I go I like to remind people, well, you know that 11 of the 12 apostles were martyred, right? You know that, like, the, all the prophets, not all, many of the prophets are martyred for standing for God's truth. Jesus himself is killed. The idea is that, do we really want to be like these people? Do you really identify with John the Baptist? You know, do you really identify with James and Thomas who was said to be crucified in India?

[Aaron] Or Stephen stoned in public.

[Dale] Or Stephen you know and so these are, I think that the gospel that we have in America, or in some of the developed countries, we've become so comfortable, and that's why the church has actually diminished. And where are you seeing the church growing? Wherever there's the most suffering. And so Afghanistan, Iran, you know, Brazil, parts of middle of the Middle East.

[Aaron] North Korea, China.

[Dale] North Korea, Southeast Asia, and so I think that there is a turning of the tide that's occurring here, that there is a political persecution, for sure, and we're seeing this. And so, yeah, your fear of effectiveness, well, the big question is, are you willing to stand for truth? I think that's the big thing that couples have to think about in their marriage going forward.

[Jennifer] I think that's a great question for them to talk about. So, the last question that we have for you guys is, in your own words what is a Marriage After God?

[Dale] You wanna read it? I have a little note here that I wrote down. It's a quote we say all the time so it's not an awkward thing.

[Veronica] Yeah, we say it in our own podcast pretty frequently. It's two people who love God more than they love each other.

[Jennifer] Perfect.

[Aaron] Concise, I love that. And it's true, and when you love God and you wanna say yes to him, we're gonna receive, like just like a son with a good father. Like, we're gonna receive whatever our father has for us and we're gonna be okay with it. And you know we just wanna thank you guys for joining us, the insights, and you guys sharing vulnerably this season you're in, and how you guys are still pursuing God and not just turning your faces away from him, because he's not giving you what you deserve. Because, luckily, we don't get what we deserve, and he gives us grace instead. So, we just wanna thank everyone for listening today, and we want everyone to take a moment and go check out the Real Christianity podcast. Just go search for them that's Dale and Veronica's podcast. We love them, you're gonna be totally encouraged by the boldness, and the scripture, and just the way they are trying to share their life with the world and, yeah, so we're gonna close in prayer, and, yeah, you wanna pray first, Jennifer?

[Jennifer] Dear Lord, we pray nothing would hinder our effectiveness and ministering to each other in marriage. We also pray nothing would hinder our effectiveness and sharing the gospel in this world. We pray you would defend us against the enemy. We pray his plans to divide us and destroy marriage would not prevail. Protect us from the enemy's schemes. Thank you for equipping us with armor, so that we can stand firm in our faith. We pray our flesh would not get in the way of our effectiveness. Help us to have self-control and walk in wisdom. If we do experience attacks or hardships, may you be our strength, hope, and endurance, to run this race with perseverance. If our flesh does hinder us, may we confront our sin, and repent so that we may be vessels of your glory, as we share with others the power of salvation in our lives. We submit our marriages to you, and ask that you use us to do all the wonderful things you have prepared for us to do. May your name be glorified, in Jesus name, Amen.

[Aaron] Amen.

[Veronica] Amen.

[Aaron] So, we just wanna thank everyone for listening today. This is part two of the 16 part series for our book, Marriage After God. Please go pick up a copy of our book today, you're not gonna want to miss out on this book. It's, and also, stay tuned we have 14 more episodes and 14 more interviews, so, we'll see you next week.

[Aaron] Did you enjoy today's show? if you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Feb 20, 2019
MAG 01: God's Purpose For Your Marriage - Interview w/ Cody + Stacy Mehan

Quote From Marriage After God Chapter 1: God’s purpose for marriage

“Marriage is and always will be an earthly symbol of a heavenly


Cody and Stacy are not only some of our closest friends they also attended our Marriage After God Gathering, which that gathering became a catalyst in us writing the Marriage After God Book!


Dear Lord,
Thank you for marriage and thank you for creating it with intentionality and with purpose. May we walk humbly with each other as we choose to actively fulfill this purpose. May we be husbands and wives who know confidently how you are using marriage to reflect your perfect love to this lost world. Mature us, o Lord, and use us to encourage growth in each other so that we continue to be more and more fruitful. We pray others would see the fruit of Your Spirit in our lives. May our obedience to live out all that you have commanded impacts our marriage, impacts our families and impacts this world in an extraordinary way. May we be faithful servants who build your kingdom and not our own. May we say yes to you to participate in all of the wonderful opportunities you invite us to do for you. Give us courage and fill our heart with strength as we chase boldly after you, together.
In Jesus’ name, amen!

[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

[Aaron] And today we're going to be in part one of the Marriage After God series. And we're gonna be talking with Cody and Stacy Mehan about God's purpose for our marriage. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.

[Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife.

[Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution.

[Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade.

[Aaron] And so far, we have four young children.

[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media.

[Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day.

[Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life.

[Aaron] Love.

[Jennifer] And power.

[Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God.

[Jennifer] Together.

[Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.

[Jennifer] This is Marriage After God.

[Aaron] Thank you so much for joining us on the first episode in this series. There's gonna be 16 episodes. We have 16 interviews coming your way. They're all powerful, they're all amazing, and we're excited for that. But we want to invite you to take a moment, if you have not already and leave a review. The reviews are how our podcast gets seen by new people. And so if you've enjoyed this podcast and you're excited about the upcoming interviews we have coming your way in the series, please leave a review, leave a star rating, and we'd really appreciate that.

[Jennifer] Another way you can support this podcast is by shopping on our online store, And we just want to take a minute to highlight our newest book, Marriage After God. That's what this entire series on the podcast is based off of. And if you hear anything today or throughout the rest of the series that encourages you or inspires you, you're gonna want to get this book. So, go to and get more information on Marriage After God and order today.

[Aaron] So, today on the first episode in our 16-week Marriage After God series, we are interviewing some of our best friends. Cody and Stacy Mehan, welcome to the show.

[Stacy] Woo-hoo.

[Cody] Hi, thanks for having us. We're super excited to be here.

[Aaron] And you guys are super nervous, and that's OK.

[Cody] We are.

[Stacy] What are you even talking about? I'm not nervous at all.

[Cody] We're slightly nervous really excited to be here, but yes we are nervous.

[Aaron] Yeah and that's OK. It's good to be nervous, but don't be nervous. It's gonna be a fun conversation. And why don't you take a second before we get into the icebreaker question and just let us know how was the journey of you guys figuring out how you were gonna answer the questions, for this episode, 'cause you're nervous.

[Cody] Great question, there's the icebreaker question right there.

[Stacy] That's a good icebreaker.

[Cody] Yeah, so.

[Stacy] It was amazing!

[Cody] Awesome, yeah so we were actually--

[Stacy] Super simple.

[Cody] It wasn't simple. We prayed, got the questions out, got our bibles out, and we're really excited actually to walk through the, just to walk through and answer them together just so that we would be less nervous than we are and more prepared probably than we are. And it actually ended in conflict.

[Aaron] Yeah it wasn't like a fun conversation.

[Cody] It wasn't, no, we typically don't argue like this, but we argued through our responses disagreeing with each other.

[Stacy] Because I was right.

[Cody] And I was right.

[Stacy] And so was Cody.

[Cody] And so we were both right--

[Jennifer] You guys are so relatable, right off the bat everyone listening is going, Yup.

[Stacy] Yeah.

[Cody] So we went to bed, we woke up this morning, we prayed, and we actually that's really, we just prayed. We just asked God to forgive us. And we asked each other for forgiveness, and it was good. And so we actually got through the questions, probably not enough but we're excited that we're through it.

[Aaron] It's OK the more candid, the better. But it's cool to know that the people listening are gonna be like, oh, they also fight.

[Cody] We're normal

[Aaron] And argue about spiritual things.

[Stacy] Just a little bit.

[Jennifer] I do love your guys' response to that conflict though right away you just decided, nope we're gonna pray about this and submit it back to the Lord. And I feel like that's key and I think that a marriage after God has that quality about them, so we're already encouraging people.

[Stacy] Yeah, totally.

[Aaron] So before we get going, why don't you introduce who you are, how long you've been married, kids, work, and how you know us.

[Jennifer] And how many children you have.

[Cody] Yeah I'll start. So again, Cody and Stacy, we have been married for fifth, 10 years, going on 10 years.

[Stacy] 15.

[Aaron] Were you gonna say 15 years?

[Cody] I always say--

[Stacy] Almost 10 years.

[Cody] 15 or 20 cause it's funny and she corrects me. So we've been married almost 10 years. We have three children, we are expecting one in,

[Stacy] One in the oven, May.

[Cody] March? April, May, this is perfect.

[Stacy] March, May.

[Cody] In May.

[Stacy] April, tomorrow.

[Cody] Yeah, it was just really exciting. And so yeah, married 10 years. We have three kids, one on the way, what else did you ask?

[Jennifer] What do you for work?

[Cody] What do we do for work? Yeah, it's really exciting. So our journey is amazing, we'll probably get into more of that. But as of this year I started a home building company and build custom houses which is really fun. And my lovely wife, I'll let you--

[Stacy] Which has actually been a dream of ours for our entire marriage.

[Cody] Yeah, it's our dream that I'm doing and we're going to do it together.

[Stacy] End up doing it together. And right now I am running a Young Living business and it is pretty awesome, super fun.

[Aaron] Thriving?

[Cody] It is thriving and awesome.

[Stacy] It's thriving and I'm also obviously a mommy and a wife, taking care of our home. So I have lots of jobs.

[Jennifer] Awesome.

[Stacy] Just a couple.

[Cody] Yeah, that's us.

[Aaron] Awesome, and how did we meet? How did you guys meet us, 'cause this is a funny story.

[Cody] Yeah this is a good story. You should tell this story.

[Stacy] OK, so Rowan our first baby was six weeks old and we were walking downtown, just on a walk with another couple. And I saw this girl who I totally recognized but I could not figure out where I recognized her from. I'm like is she on TV? And we don't really watch a ton of TV so I couldn't figure it out. I'm like I know I've seen her somewhere, Babe, do you know her, who is that person?

[Cody] So she, yeah, she points over to this couple. And multiple times says hey, I know them, hey, I know them, hey, I know them, and--

[Stacy] Eventually I figured it out. And I'd been doing this,

[Cody] No what you did, what I did was I was like, Babe, go talk to her.

[Stacy] Oh yeah, yeah.

[Cody] That's what I said, right? I said go ask her how you know her. And you did and Jen's like, oh yeah, I--

[Stacy] I was like are you the Unveiled Wife?

[Cody] Yeah it was really funny.

[Stacy] She's like, yeah? So I was doing her first Devotional Wife After God and she had done YouTube videos for it. So I recognized her face, obviously.

[Cody] And so she used to ask me weekly to go out of my office to watch these videos. And so then I would go into the living room and I'd listen so I knew Jen's voice.

[Jennifer] Yeah, yeah.

[Cody] Before I knew her face from the YouTube, yeah.

[Jennifer] Well we're so grateful that you guys stopped us that day. And we had just moved to central Oregon and I thought we were moving to this small town. I didn't think anyone would know us or recognize us or anything like that.

[Aaron] It didn't happen very often.

[Jennifer] No.

[Aaron] Like, rarely did someone recognize us back then.

[Jennifer] So we were down in Drake Park and we were with The Partridges, Dale and Veronica at the time they had just moved up here too. And it was just a beautiful day, I remember. And you came up and your smile, everything about you is so memorable and we kicked it off. We were like friends immediately.

[Aaron] The next night actually it was that day we got to know each other, then the next night we went to Dale and Veronica's for dinner.

[Jennifer] Yeah, burgers.

[Cody] And then hung out with you guys, yeah the Spees were there.

[Aaron] So we should actually thank Dale and Veronica 'cause of their--

[Stacy] Thank you, Partridges.

[Aaron] Consistency of, hey, let's just go hang out tonight.

[Cody] And come over.

[Stacy] They're so good at that, yeah.

[Aaron] Well we are happy, we've been friends ever since. Like, good friends, like best friends.

[Cody] Since that day, yeah.

[Aaron] And so it was--

[Stacy] We like you guys.

[Aaron] You were the first people we thought of when wanting to launch this Marriage After God series. We were like let's interview our best friends.

[Cody] That's awesome.

[Aaron] And so we're excited to talk to you guys. And we're excited to get into the heavy lifting questions, but let's do this first icebreaker question. Describe your favorite date night meal and dessert.

[Cody] Do you wanna start? You want me to start?

[Stacy] I don't know, you go ahead.

[Cody] So, I would say our favorite date night is maybe long and we have time, like it's not a, typically when we're dreaming of our favorite date night, it's not a one-stop shop to get dinner. We like to go, like everything we do we get a coffee first, right?

[Stacy] Yeah, start with coffee.

[Cody] Afford the time.

[Aaron] There's a process.

[Cody] There's a process, right, we get a coffee, and then often we actually don't know where we're gonna go so we'll drive through downtown, circle--

[Jennifer] Look for the best spot.

[Cody] Yeah, we talk about and then we go somewhere and--

[Stacy] It usually ends up--

[Cody] Pretty organic.

[Stacy] Progressive.

[Cody] Progressive, yeah, coffee--

[Stacy] Which I really like.

[Cody] Dinner, I always order what I want. She typically doesn't like her meal and then--

[Stacy] Well because I like to try things--

[Cody] Will eat mine.

[Stacy] I like to try new things and you're--

[Aaron] That sounds a lot like Jennifer.

[Stacy] Super safe with meals--

[Cody] Yeah I'm really safe, I always go with what I know.

[Stacy] You get what you know.

[Cody] Or, or, actually I tell the waitress at least half the time

[Stacy] Surprise me.

[Cody] Yup, surprise me and it's always good.

[Jennifer] Aaron does that kinda stuff.

[Cody] Yeah, I love it.

[Jennifer] That'd make me nervous.

[Stacy] I'll do the surprise but whenever I get the surprise I never like it. But I like what Cody gets.

[Jennifer] Instead of surprises I'd rather just order two or three things that I know I'm gonna like and try 'em all.

[Aaron] Yeah try 'em all. She'll order something and she'll be like, Are you gonna get this one thing? I'm like, no, I was planning to get this. She's like, could you get this other thing so I can taste it?

[Stacy] Yeah so we can actually try all of them. That's why it's good to go to dinner with--

[Cody] And then you get it and you like it, yeah.

[Stacy] Yeah, that's why it's good to go to dinner with another couple. So you have four meals to choose from.

[Cody] Yeah that's good, double date.

[Aaron] Invitation accepted.

[Stacy] So I don't think it necessarily matters what the food is but it's more like the company.

[Aaron] And the experience.

[Cody] Yeah, so progressive, does that answer all the questions?

Yup, it was good.

[Cody] OK, good.

[Aaron] OK so Jennifer, why don't you read the quote that is just gonna kick off this section? From chapter one of the book Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] Marriage is and always will be an earthly symbol of a heavenly truth.

[Aaron] Which is the whole focus of this first chapter which is called God's Purpose for Marriage. And we were gonna talk about this today. We're not gonna come to the full conclusion on it. The goal is like hey, let's navigate this idea of the purpose that God has for our marriage. In this world, with each other. And so we're gonna just get in some questions with you guys.

[Jennifer] Yeah so I thought it'd be fun to start with the opening chapter, what we open with in this chapter. Which is the gathering, the Marriage After God gathering, which you guys got to be a part of.

[Cody] We did, yeah

[Stacy] So fun.

[Jennifer] You guys came to, so, what was going through your mind when you were sitting there as that guy--

[Aaron] Well real quick lemme give just a little bit of background on what the gathering is. In case the listeners aren't sure what that is. This book Marriage After God came out of a retreat-style event that Jennifer and I did several years ago, a few years ago. Where we got 12, 13 couples together and we went through all of these ideas of what God wants to do in our marriages and through our marriages. And Cody and Stacy were one of the couples. So just to give a little background so now you guys can answer Jennifer's question.

[Cody] Yeah, do you wanna start there or you want me to?

[Stacy] Well first if I can just say I love that you guys use the term gathering over some other terms that you could--

[Aaron] Retreat or conference.

[Stacy] Or vacation, because it was intimate. I love that word because it is intimate when you have a gathering at your house. It makes way for intimate conversations, you get to know each other on a whole nother level. So I really loved that. What were we thinking when we got there? Let's go, let's learn something.

[Cody] Yeah it was really, it was beautiful there. So the setting, have you described the setting?

[Stacy] Go ahead.

[Cody] Yeah so the setting is along the Metolius River here in Oregon. And it's just out in the middle of nowhere, it's quiet there's beautiful mountains. There's this amazing green pasture which I don't describe as good as Jen did in the first chapter of the book there. By the way I paused on that last night and thought about how creative your mind is when I read that.

[Jennifer] Oh, cool.

[Cody] But it was absolutely beautiful and just peaceful and there was how many, 12 couples? We all sat in this big room we got coffee or tea and we sat down. And I think what was really impactful for everybody there was that immediately, we had a manual, we said hi, we got to know each other, we introduced ourselves, but we opened the Bible. And we started with scripture, we started with prayer and then immediately just dove into our really healthy, heavy dose of scripture. And how it--

[Aaron] Do you remember what we read?

[Stacy] Like we...

[Cody] I don't.

[Aaron] The first thing I read, wasn't it John 17?

[Cody] Is that what it was? I think that rings a bell.

[Aaron] Just talking about unity and being one with Christ, one with God, one with each other.

[Stacy] Yeah.

[Cody] Yeah, and I think the first night was foundation, was the foundation on the word of God, yeah. So it was a really, just kind of to answer that question, it was really awesome opportunity to get together with couples and it was intimate, and it was a gathering, and it was deep, and it was intentional.

[Jennifer] Did you guys walk away from that event with anything on your minds?

[Stacy] Oh yeah, totally. I think we left super excited. Well first, when you go anywhere and you have children and you have that opportunity to just be together and to dream together, which is something that we love to do. To dream together, to get in the word and just come back to that foundation and remember you know, God's purpose for our marriage. We walked away with ideas, excitement, ready to pursue what the Lord had for us.

[Cody] Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think that was the big thing for us. We were walking in biblical community and spending time in the word and have ultimately a pretty good marriage with lots of things we work through. But the event really ignited what God could do, and wants to do, and desires to do in and through our marriage for His kingdom. So we left there with I would say kingdom-minded dreams. And then maybe a new way that we hadn't before.

[Aaron] So do you feel like 'cause we're talking about God's purpose for marriages, what the first chapter's about, the idea's to open up the minds and the hearts of believers and say there's a way that you might not be thinking or seeing your marriage and it's a big picture. Did you come to the retreat with an idea that God had a purpose for your marriage? Or did that happen at the retreat? Did you leave with that idea?

[Cody] Yeah, we definitely knew that God had purpose for our marriage. And we believe that and we're living it. I think that what the retreat did was offered an opportunity to think clearly and to really put on paper, and we gotta pray through it and read scripture through it. But just the opportunity to really think about God, what could you do through us? What are our strengths, what are our spiritual gifts, how are we gifted, how are we talented, and how, ultimately, can that be used for your kingdom? And you know, the more that we walk through these types of learnings like the retreat, we understand that we're really dynamic and we're a really good team and we really work well together. And oftentimes like today, like this morning, and last night we know that that's where the devil tries to kill and destroy our marriage. And so, we have to really protect that with prayer.

[Stacy] Yeah, put on our armor.

[Cody] Yeah, so we knew we had purpose in our marriage and it definitely ignited that and we're on the trajectory now, I would say. And that was definitely a course-changer for us.

[Aaron] Awesome, and we've definitely seen the changes in your life and just the laser-focus of what's God doin', let's chase after that in our life.

[Jennifer] So I just want to make a mention for those listening right now that, you've described this gathering that you guys got to be a part of and we still have so many great memories from that. But they might be sitting there going, well I wanna go, I wanna go do this thing. But that's, I wanna tell them, that's the reason we wrote Marriage After God. Because we knew we had to get this experience and the information that we covered and everything into a format that everyone could be a part of and everyone could read.

[Aaron] And the book's much more concise and much more extensive in just this idea of what God wants to do with us and having a marriage after God. And so the event was a sleep of faith for us. Which we talk about in the book. And God took that yes, that we said to him, we said, yes, OK, we'll do this. That's scary, we've never done an event before. And then it was almost like God's like, OK, now that you did all the work, turn it into a book so other people can have it. 'Cause people've asked us about doing it and the amount of people that would like to do, we can't do it. We could, I guess.

[Jennifer] Maybe in the future.

[Aaron] But this book is just a way to get it in everyone's hands. So, you know you guys apparently already felt, had a feeling that God had a purpose for your marriage whether you knew what it was or not, just the backs of your minds and in your hearts. You're like OK, God can use our marriage, yeah he wants to do something. And then, going to this gathering kind of highlighted what it was and gave you a foundation to look at when chasing after God and this purpose. Do you think every marriage has a purpose in Christ? Like God has something for every marriage?

[Jennifer] And is it the same for everyone, or is it different for everyone?

[Stacy] Yeah, definitely believe that God has a purpose for every single marriage. I think that the journey and the path is gonna look different for every couple, 'cause we're not all created with the same qualities and giftings and all of that good stuff. But we all definitely have a purpose, it just looks different.

[Aaron] That's awesome.

[Cody] And I just have to second the yes. Yes, yes, yes God has a purpose for every Christian marriage, yes. And I think that to expand on what you said, the beauty in God creating us all differently and beautiful and in His image and giving us different spiritual gifts in the body of Christ that we're operating in is that our marriages do look different, you know? Stacy and I might have a different ministry than you do, but God definitely has a purpose in using the gifts and talents that he's given us. And the life that he's given us, and the kids that he's given us, and the parents, and just the walk of life that we have. We're all so different and that's just what makes the body of Christ beautiful that we get a tribute in different ways.

[Stacy] Yeah, and there is such beauty when we're walking and the way that God has created us individually and our strengths and the things that we're weak in. For example, if I tried to walk in Jen's strength in writing, in our marriage that would create a lot of conflict. You'd try to support me in something that is not necessarily a gift of mine but I think there is such beauty in walking in our giftings and the way that God has truly created us. And I think that purpose plays out through those giftings.

[Jennifer] So can you guys just take a minute to share how you guys work together as a team in your marriage to do ministry? Like what does ministry look like in your lives today?

[Cody] Yeah, so ministry in our life today is I would say multi-faceted. We have kids, we have three kids and that's a big part of what we do is child rear and train them up in the way they should go and to follow the Lord. And so I think that a lot of our ministry is probably involved in that. In being with other parents and other kids and in our home and investing in our children. We're also outside of the house a lot. We have a lot of outside relationships with our businesses and being salt, being light, being an example of who Christ is through the way that we interact, and the way that we love, and the way that we give and elevate people higher than ourself. And so together in our marriage, I think that just the unity that we have in doing life together is probably the biggest part. Also we're an active part of our church. And we're an active part of that body and we give in many different ways there and serve there.

[Stacy] And I think with that comes the clear mind of what the ministry is that way we're able to support each other. And what we need to do, and what we desire to do, and how we desire to minister to other couples or moms or dads.

[Cody] Yeah, and we have other direct types of discipleship that we do just individually. Like I meet with guys weekly. I have a mentor that I meet with every week, I also have a younger man that I meet with and of course all the other men that I'm walking with spiritually.

[Jennifer] That's awesome. And you know you had mentioned, Stacy, earlier about how if you had my gifting, Cody wouldn't be able to support you in that because it's not your gifting. So I love that you brought that up because something that I've seen in you, and you know this about yourself, but you're very good at hosting and being hospitable, and your love for people is so welcoming and inviting and, I mean even from that first week that we met you guys, you invited us to your house and you cooked this amazing meal, I still remember it.

[Stacy] Oh that was good.

[Cody] That was the meal I cut my finger off.

[Jennifer] Yes Cody almost cut his finger off.

[Cody] On the cheese slicer.

[Jennifer] But after all these years--

[Aaron] How do you guys remember all that stuff? I'm trying to think of, I don't remember what we ate. What was it?

[Jennifer] So I just want to encourage you guys that over the years that we both, Aaron and I have seen this play out in your marriage time and time again where you do have strengths and giftings and you do support each other well in them and a big part of your guys' ministry as a couple is just loving on those moms and dads, loving on other couples, and feeding them, not just good food, but feeding them the hope of Christ and what God's doing in your lives and talking about, hey what are you learning about? What's God been teaching you? And you're so good at that and I just wanted to highlight that because it's powerful.

[Stacy] Thank you.

[Cody] Yeah, thank you.

[Aaron] So we were talking earlier about you guys knowing you had a purpose but not knowing what it was. But then also leaving the gathering that we hosted, the Marriage After God gathering with more focus and saying this isn't as ambiguous as we thought, God has a ministry for us, He has a mission for us, He has a purpose for our marriage not just for the world but also for our own benefit. How has recognizing that God's purposed your marriage for something more than just happily ever after, which is a phrase that we use in the book, how has that motivated you guys? How has it benefited your marriage just recognizing that there's a purpose? 'Cause you said earlier, Stacy, that when you know what the ministry is then you can work together toward it and help each other. So how have you seen benefits that recognizing, oh, we have a purpose, so how are we gonna walk in that?

[Stacy] Yeah, well knowing and recognizing that you have a purpose is like having vision.

[Cody] Yeah I was just gonna say that.

[Stacy] Without vision people parish, so now walking away from that, we have a vision, we recognize what our purpose is. And even if we don't recognize the finite details of where we're going or what we're doing, we have this grand vision. And so I think it's enabled us to support each other better. It's impacted our marriage quite heavily because rather than working as individuals like we were I think before, it ended up working against each other in a lot of ways, we were able to come together and be unified with one purpose in mind and walk forward together, supporting each other and...

[Cody] Yeah, yeah, no, that was great. And I would just agree with everything you just said and that in unity and our marriage and pursuing God together, the change was getting out of the weeds. And I think that We were really stuck in what was happening in our life, finances, bills, debt, jobs.

[Stacy] What do we want to do with our lives. What jobs here?

[Cody] All the things of life and the worries of the world and, when you can get above that and rise above that and understand that our purpose in our life is absolutely none of those things, those are just details, it really clears a path. I always say, I have to get out of the weeds or above the fog. And when we can have a vision in our marriage and really understand what God has called us to for his purposes, it makes the little details, the weeds, the fog, you just grunt through it because together, as a team, you understand that together you're going somewhere. And it's just the work in between to get there. And before, the day-to-day was the work and it was hard to see the vision and we didn't have a--

[Aaron] There was no end to the means, yeah.

[Stacy] Right.

[Cody] Yeah, It was what are we gonna do tomorrow? I dunno, you know, what about next week, I dunno. How are we gonna pay that off, who knows. And with biblical vision, then, of course when you submit to scripture, then the details of marriage and submission in marriage, and kids, and finances, those details just get worked out.

[Stacy] Yeah, I think a lot of it for us as individuals too and I feel like lot of people can relate to this is taking ourselves out of the picture and not being so focused on our own needs and our own personal fleshly desires but...

[Cody] But elevating each other.

[Stacy] Yes, exactly. And being obedient and submissive to scripture and--

[Cody] Each other.

[Stacy] Each other.

[Cody] And Christ, yeah.

[Aaron] Yeah, and when I think of purpose, it's like it's the end. Having the end in mind, having the goal in mind, having the purpose in mind, the direction, the plan, right? Helps, you were talking about the details, like all these things it used to be, we focused on the day-to-day and all these internal, our eyes were always looking inside the marriage. When you're fighting, when you're struggling, when you have marriage issues, when you have sin issues, when you're just going paycheck-to-paycheck. All of these things that keep our eyes inward.

[Cody] Yeah, yeah.

[Aaron] And what you're saying is once you recognized that the purpose is not inward, the purpose is heavenly, it's outwardly. The scripture that talks about seek the things that are above, it draws you out. Like instead of looking inward and you're not going anywhere and you even said when we were chasing our own things it was actually working against us, it's almost like the moment you have the goal in mind, not that just the details work themselves out, but also all the details work themselves in a way that make the end in mind the direction. So you're like oh, let's just change how we're treating each other because this isn't gonna address the direction we're going. Hey, let's just change how we're looking at our work because it's getting in the way of the direction we're going. And so everything just starts. Think about like electrons and when you put electric current through it it turns 'em all the same direction, right, like a magnet. And you just start all going the same direction and now as a team with that one purpose in mind, that one goal in mind you're just... and I'm just describing all the stuff for the listeners to recognize that if we don't recognize that God has a purpose for our marriage, if we don't recognize that there's an end in mind, then the means become the end and there is no direction.

[Cody] That's right.

[Aaron] We're just floating, we're just wandering, we're just drifting and we're just gonna go into chaos. But sounds like you guys were there and then boom, had this point of view, direction to look at and now you're starting to chase that and we've seen it.

[Cody] Yeah, we're growing through that.

[Jennifer] And I'd just like to mention that it's not like all those circumstances you know, having children, you mentioned debt, and finances and all of these things that you previously were really heavily focused on, it's not like all of a sudden you made a choice and all of of a sudden, those things disappear, or you used the term, I had to rise above it. You still have to navigate all of those things but--

[Aaron] You navigate 'em differently.

[Jennifer] You navigate 'em differently and you navigate 'em according to what God wants in the direction and not just your own.

[Cody] Yeah.

[Stacy] Right, and I really like something that Aaron said, I'm probably not gonna say it exactly how you said it but you were just talking about the kind of perspective change in making it heavenly focused. And I know me as a person, when I see a change that needs to happen, what I wanna do is jump out of it completely. Like, I wanted Cody to quit his job and I wanted to move cities and jump ship and start fresh.

[Cody] Start over.

[Stacy] Totally. And I recognize that's not the answer a majority of the time, maybe that is the answer sometimes for some people, but it wasn't the answer for us. We had to walk through the muddy waters. And that was really, really good for our marriage. We've learned so much walking through those muddy waters and jumping ship wasn't gonna fix anything, but changing our perspective and having a heavenly perspective is what helped us to continue to move forward.

[Cody] To say as to God, yeah. I mean yeah, that's why we have Uriah, right? And Islie and, the baby in your belly.

[Stacy] Baby on the way.

[Cody] Yeah, it's because we said yes to God, because you didn't want to have more kids. And part of our, a really pivotal part of our story was I went to a bible study with the fellowship that I'm currently at and it was incredibly pointed at sin and changing that day, that moment, that hour and leaving we prayed as men and we left that room a changed person. And I went home to my wife that night and I was encouraged by the other men. And I was gonna be held accountable to go and confess my sin to my wife, and I did. And God used that yes, to walk away and turn from my sin and confess it to my wife and repent. And ask for forgiveness. And through that, softened her heart for more children, and that's when we got pregnant with our second, Uriah.

[Stacy] I feel like it might be actually really encouraging to our listeners if you share what that sin is and just explain to them because that is what softened my heart.

[Cody] Yeah, so that Bible study we talked about sexual sin and lust and, specifically, pornography. And that was the confession that, as men, we were walking through. And so that was the confession that I had to make to Stacy that night that, if and when and how I had dabbled in that and to ask for forgiveness to change and I did. And God used that, and we got pregnant with Uriah that day, in fact, or whatever, the next couple days, however that works out, and so.

[Aaron] Details.

[Cody] Details.

[Stacy] TMI.

[Cody] And so praise the Lord for that, that was really awesome.

[Stacy] And you know what's crazy is that I literally, after Rowan, did not want to have children for a good five years. I watched other parents around me who had big age gaps between their children, and I'm like that looks really nice, that looks so easy. They can still go to the gym, they can go to coffee shops when they want to. This selfish part of me really wanted that, I loved that idea. So Cody and I were very much against each other in our desire for more children and when that was gonna happen. And Cody coming to me and confessing one, his sin but also saying, babe, I have this strong desire for more children, like right away, and I don't see a reason that we need to be waiting. I had the opportunity to submit to my husband and ultimately, submit to the Lord in that. And I chose to and it was so beautiful, and now we have four babies.

[Cody] Yeah, four on the way.

[Jennifer] What a great testimony of what unconditional love can look like in a marriage.

[Aaron] And when, again going back to the purpose conversation, the only, not the only, but one of the reasons you were able to walk in freedom from that sin, which we just did a podcast together about this, and we, Cody, you and I have the same story on how God got a hold of our hearts and showed us that we can walk in the freedom that he's already given us on the cross, but recognizing the purpose. That it's not just you going to your wife to avoid the shaming guilt you feel, like get that fixed. Like, here, my shame and my guilt I feel I wanna get that fixed so can you forgive me? 'Cause I feel shameful. No, it was, this is keeping me from having a fruitful and powerful ministry with my wife.

[Cody] Yeah.

[Aaron] And this is keeping me from having a fruitful and powerful and close relationship with God. Therefore, I'm going to go and repent. Because I don't want to be that man anymore, I want to be the man that God has made me to be.

[Cody] That's right.

[Aaron] And so having the purpose in mind, it draws out of us and draws us in the direction that God wants us and that's purity and to holiness and into authority and power to do the things that he has for us to do.

[Jennifer] And I feel like I have to highlight for the wife, Stacy, because you knew the purpose, you could then hear that confession and you had a choice to make, and it sounds like you chose reconciliation and then, even on top of that, submission to a desire that your husband had for more children. And I just, again, wanna say this is so beautiful to know that a husband and wife can walk faithfully even amidst the muddy waters like you mentioned earlier. Walk faithfully to what God has called us to do, driven by this purpose that he has for marriage.

[Aaron] And at the end of the day, the purpose is that we love God and we want to please Him and Him only, but in doing that, in chasing our Father we go where he's going, right? And that's the end game is what is God doing? What's His mission in this world? What's He already been doing since before time began, right? And we're told in the Bible that we're now ministers of reconciliation in this world and you guys got to practice that in your own marriage.

[Stacy] Yeah, that's so beautiful.

[Aaron] Right? And then what happens is walking in that holiness and that purity and no longer just jumping right back in the mud all the time and always being right there. Going back to that idea of we're always focused in word oh, well we're back in that sin again. Oh, we're all back in that sin again. And never moving forward, it's just there and that's exactly where the enemy wants us is--

[Jennifer] Ineffective.

[Aaron] Ineffective, which we're gonna talk about in a later--

[Jennifer] Next episode.

[Aaron] Oh, it's next episode. But recognizing that He has a purpose, recognizing that He wants a close relationship with us, that He wants us to walk in purity and all of those truths make it easier. Now, it doesn't mean it's easy but it makes it easier for us to do the things that he's called us to, obedience. Which is confession and walking in righteousness and ministering to the lost and loving your brothers and sisters in Christ. And we've seen you do all of these things in your life. and I didn't know you before, before we met you of course, because I haven't met you yet.

[Cody] Traveling to Damascus Road-But I--

[Stacy] You didn't follow us on social media?

[Aaron] But I know you, seeing from where you were to where you guys are today, we can see how your guys' pursuit of God and your chasing after him and your desire to want what He desires has changed you in your marriage has changed you in your relationship with your friends, is making you guys awesome parents.

[Jennifer] Can you guys just share what do you guys feel has had the biggest impact in your life as you've chased after God?

[Stacy] Oh, it's easy.

[Jennifer] When you think about the growth--

[Aaron] She's got the answer, there you go.

[Cody] I'm so happy for you to go.

[Stacy] Oh no, we just talked about this. A biblical community, that has been--

[Cody] Oh yeah.

[Stacy] The biggest I think factor for us is just having people walking alongside of us, encouraging us, holding us accountable, and--

[Cody] To scripture.

[Stacy] To scripture, yes exactly. Not to what you think and think is the right way or a good way because you read this book or that book but because that's what scripture says.

[Aaron] And I would agree. Close, true biblical Christian fellowship has been pivotal--

[Jennifer] Pivotal.

[Aaron] In our walks with Christ.

[Cody] Yeah.

[Aaron] So yeah, that's, we agree.

[Stacy] Sweet.

[Cody] Agreed.

[Aaron] So, I love that you brought up Christian fellowship and we're talking about purpose for marriage and one of the things that we draw out in the book is the picture that marriage is, the reason God gave us marriage. And you guys know this biblically, what is the bride represent?

[Cody] The body of Christ, the Church.

[Aaron] It represents the Church. And he calls the bride he says that he's returning for a white bride, a clean bride--

[Stacy] Pure.

[Aaron] A pure bride.

[Jennifer] Just like any bride listening right now is thinking yeah, I know what that took.

[Aaron] Yeah, and so, but what's awesome, the community aspect, in our marriage, the wife, represents the Church and the husband represents Christ, where a picture of that to the world. So walking in close Christian fellowship, which again is something we're gonna talk about on a later episode.

[Cody] Yeah, that one'll be good.

[Aaron] And it's just so beautiful seeing it played out on the microscale in our marriage but then seeing it applied in the local fellowship, the body of Christ. And then globally as a church. Like this is why we're doing this podcast, this is why we wrote this book. Our hope is to encourage the whole body of Christ to recognize that we are the bride of Christ. That our unity and our oneness with Christ is vital and it's required, and it's our gift. It's our gift that we are apart of the body of Christ. We are the bride of Christ, he's returning for us and again, it just excites us that we get to participate in that, and we get to benefit from it. We get to be the beneficiaries of obedience. And in walking and being part of the body. So, I 100 percent agree that close Christian fellowship is just, it's another way that we minister to the world 'cause that get to see our unity. And it changes us and it grows us and we benefit from it. So, Amen.

[Cody] Amen

[Jennifer] So, while you guys are on the podcast, is there anything that is on your hearts right now that you think husbands and wives need to hear, something you want to encourage them with?

[Cody] Yeah, absolutely. I would say that if you haven't caught this through the podcast and the things that we've shared today, it's humility, probably and just submission to, first of all the scripture in Christ and then, secondly, to each other. And to elevate your spouse always above yourself. And in all of our marriage battles and victories, the victory comes through submission and through humility, and through repentance. And so, I think no matter where you're at in your marriage, whether you're married for one year or 10 years like we're about to be, that's a battle that doesn't end and it has to continue through your entire marriage. But just continued submission to each other, continued heartfelt passion just to elevate your spouse above herself and to care for their needs and to care for their desires, and to care for their heart, just like Ephesians 5:22 through 30 describes. And so for us, that's been pivotal even today. Literally today, we talked about that Scripture as we prayed together this morning when we walked through what we talked about. And so, yeah, so submitting to each other and to Christ.

[Aaron] So the last question we're gonna ask, and it's gonna be the question we're gonna ask every person we interview, and there's no wrong answer, in your own words, what is a marriage after God?

[Stacy] Yeah, good question. I would say that a marriage after God is obedience, submitting to God's Word and Cody just did a really great job explaining that a minute ago from Ephesians 5:22 through 33, or 30? Yes, marriage after God is obedient, it's submissive to His word.

[Jennifer] I love that and in order for us to be obedient, we have to know the word, we have to be in the word. So that would be an encouragement for everyone listening today, and just a reminder for us because we all need it, we all need to be reminded and hopefully were in it daily, and chasing after God by knowing him, by knowing his word, yeah.

[Aaron] So Cody, Stacy we love you guys. We thank you for being our guinea pigs and starting out this series with us. We appreciate your your honesty, and my prayer is that your story, your testimony, your faithfulness is ministering right now to those listening. And I believe it is. And so, what we're gonna do is we're just gonna close in prayer, so join me.

[Cody] Cool.

[Aaron] Dear Lord thank you for marriage and thank you for creating it with intentionality and with purpose. May we walk humbly with each other as we choose to actively fulfill this purpose. May we be husbands and wives who know confidently how you are using marriage to reflect your perfect love to this lost world. Mature us O Lord and use us to encourage growth in each other so that we continue to be more and more fruitful. We pray others would see the fruit of your spirit in our lives. May our obedience to live out all that you have commanded impacts our marriage, impacts our families and impacts the world in an extraordinary way. May we be faithful servants who build your kingdom and not our own. May we say yes to you to participate in all the wonderful opportunities you invite us to do for you. Give us courage and fill our heart with strength as we chase boldly after you together. In Jesus name Amen.

[Jennifer] Amen.

[Cody] Amen.

[Aaron] All right, so thank you everyone for listening to this week's episode, to the first episode in our Marriage After God series. We want to invite you please, please go pick up a book today, My wife and I wrote this for you, and all these interviews we're gonna be doing over the next 15 weeks are about the book. And the whole purpose is to encourage you in your faith and in your marriage and the purpose God has for you. So we look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? Find many more encouraging stories and resources at And let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Feb 13, 2019
MAG 00: Kicking Off the 16 Week Marriage After God Series

We will be interviewing, marriages about what it means to be a marriage after God. and order our new book Marriage After God

Our friend Lara Casey, Author of Cultivate and Make it Happen said this about Marriage After God: “ There is a short list of books I’m stashing away for my three small kiddos to read when they are older—Marriage After God is one of them.”

Also, would you take a moment today and follow us on Instagram

"Belief propels people from a place of dreaming, to a place of doing." - Jennifer Smith, Marriage After God Book

Dear Lord,

We pray for the husband and wife reading this book. May
Your Holy Spirit use this book to inspire their hearts to boldly chase
after You and say yes to the extraordinary invitations You have
prepared for them. We pray this couple will grow in their
understanding of the power and purpose of their marriage. Reveal to
them the specific plans You have for them. We pray You would use this
marriage to do incredible work to build Your kingdom. In this dark
world, may You protect this couple from the attacks of the enemy! May
You cleanse them from sin and continue to shape them into the husband
and wife You created them to be. May they realize they bear Your image
and that they are a light in this world and a beacon of hope to the
lost and lonely. We ask You to guide this couple and unite them as a
team to carry out the unique purposes You have for them in Jesus’s

Amen! In Jesus’ name, amen!

[Aaron] Hey we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

[Aaron] And today we're kicking off our 16-week Marriage After God series.

[Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast. Where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.

[Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife.

[Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution.

[Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade.

[Aaron] And so far we have four young children.

[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media.

[Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage. Encouraging them to walk in faith every day.

[Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one. Full of life.

[Aaron] Love.

[Jennifer] And power.

[Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God.

[Jennifer] Together.

[Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.

[Jennifer] This is Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] Guys I am so excited for this. I feel like as exciting it is to launch a new book, this podcast series is just as exciting. I feel like we need to celebrate. I feel like we need--

[Aaron] Ice cream.

[Jennifer] Ice cream and cake and confetti. Or I don't know what to do

[Aaron] Yeah, birthday cake, cake, ice cream.

[Jennifer] I'll take any of it.

[Aaron] On birthday cake cookies.

[Jennifer] I'm just so excited for this series and we have some really exciting stuff for you guys. Thanks for joining us.

[Aaron] Before we talk about the series and get into it. We just want to ask you if you've been following along in this podcast and you love the content, you love just the things that we're bringing up. How we're sharing the vulnerable areas of our life. And things that God's teaching us, would you please just take a moment and leave us a review. The reviews are how podcasts get seen by new people. They get ranked based off of how many reviews we get. If you would love to, we'd love to have you write a review. And the easiest way to do that is to leave a five-star review. It can be a four-star I guess.

[Jennifer] Be honest.

[Aaron] Yeah, a star review, be honest, is easy. Just tap the star at the bottom of the podcast app. But leaving a text review is the most powerful way you can help support this podcast if you want. When it comes to iTunes and how they rank this podcast.

[Jennifer] Another way to support this podcast is to shop on our store. If you go to, you can check out our resources and help support us through buying through our store. One of the books that we want to highlight, is our new book, which this series is based off of. And that's Marriage After God. Go to and go order our new book. I also want to share with you guys our friend, Lara Casey, author of Cultivate and Make It Happen, said this about Marriage After God. "There is a short list of books I'm stashing away for my three small kiddos to read when they're older. Marriage After God is one of them."

[Aaron] What a cool idea.

[Jennifer] I know, I love that idea, and I wanted to share that because I think it's such a neat idea and I want to do that for my kids. I wanna have a list of books to give.

[Aaron] It's good, because how many times you're like, "man what books should I read, or what books are out there." 'Cause we can't read every book. Having a stack of books and hey, we've read these.

[Jennifer] And they matter.

[Aaron] These books matter, they've blessed our lives. Here you go and handing that off as a wedding gift to your kids. We actually should start that.

[Jennifer] Cool, and I also want to encourage you guys to take a minute and just go follow @marriageafterGod on Instagram.

[Aaron] Yeah, that's our new page. Jennifer has her Unveiled Wife page. I have my Husband Revolution page, but our Marriage After God Instagram account is where we both come together and we share stuff and we share stuff about our podcast and things that are coming up. And it's a community for husbands and wives.

[Jennifer] Okay, moving on to our ice-breaker question.

[Aaron] What was the hardest part about writing our new book, Marriage After God?

[Jennifer] I felt like the thing you kept saying over and over again is, "I really just wanna quote scripture." Throughout the whole thing.

[Aaron] That was what's hard for me, because I kept comparing what I was writing to what the Bible already said.

[Jennifer] The Bible's so much better. We just need to tell them--

[Aaron] I'm writing this thing, and the Bible already said this way better than I could ever say it. That's what it felt like. But what was hard for you?

[Jennifer] I think for me it was figuring out how to write it together. We done it in the past, but--

[Aaron] Never to this extent.

[Jennifer] Not to this extent. You wrote most of this book and I just helped I feel like.

[Aaron] You wrote a lot.

[Jennifer] Oh, I know, but--

[Aaron] I feel like we actually wrote pretty equal amounts. In the beginning I did a lot of the writing for the initial draft and then you added so much more color in the edit.

[Jennifer] I feel like you did a lot of the teaching aspect. And I added the stories and things like that. But it was a really good balance I think of both of our voices. I did enjoy that about writing this book. I would say the other hardest part was, we started writing the book when we had three kiddos and I was pregnant and then we started the editing process after having four.

[Aaron] I feel like we are always writing a book while we're pregnant or just having a baby.

[Jennifer] Yeah, we like to keep things interesting.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] That was, just logistical finding time to be able to do that.

[Aaron] Yeah, and the other thing for me, not just that I kept comparing what I was writing to the Bible, which is good, because the Bible is everything anyway. And all we're trying to do it point people to the Bible. I think the hardest thing for me is this is the most I've ever written ever. And I've never written a book like this. It was challenging spiritually. It was challenging technically, 'cause I've never done it. But I'm really surprised at what we're able to pull off in this book. It had to have been Holy Spirit driven.

[Jennifer] I'm excited about it.

[Aaron] I'm really excited about it. I'm glad that we're starting this 16 week series to talk about the concepts that are in the book. The book is why the podcasts exist. The podcast came out of, we did the contract for the book, and we're like, "hey, let's do a podcast so we can actually start talking about it now. This idea of a Marriage After God." And encourage marriages with all this free content leading up to the book. And we're not gonna stop it after the books, this is our new thing. Doing a weekly podcast together, we love it. It's kind of funny, the Marriage After God book, the podcast, and now we're gonna be talking about the book more to pull the concepts directly out of the book and talk about them. We'll get into a little bit more about that in a minute. But, before we start, Jennifer, would you like to share a quote from the Marriage After God book?

[Jennifer] Sure, this quote is found in the introduction, which this kind of kicking off the series is going to be centered on the introduction of Marriage After God. That's what we have for you guys today. This is a quote from the introduction of Marriage After God. "Belief propels people from a place of dreaming to a place of doing."

[Aaron] Yeah, if we don't truly believe something, we're not going to act on that belief. No one ever does that. A belief is what causes us and propels us forward to do the things that we actually believe. I love that, "belief propels people from a place of dreaming to a place of doing." Instead of sitting back like, "oh, that'd be wonderful if it was true, or that's be wonderful if I could, but I can't so I'm not gonna."

[Jennifer] Yeah, and I love that we're starting out with this quote because I feel like it's the whole purpose of why we wrote this book was to encourage couples to believe and do.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] To believe what God can do with their marriage and then do it.

[Aaron] Well and believe what God already says about us. Believe what the Bible says about us. Believe what is the truth. To open our eyes to what God has for us.

[Jennifer] Okay, as we jump into the introduction of Marriage After God, which, are we gonna read for them?

[Aaron] Yeah, I think we will read the whole introduction from the book. Not right now.

[Jennifer] Okay. We're gonna do that in a little bit. But first we're gonna answer some questions. These first few questions are just ones that I came up with that I think will help you guys understand where we're coming from. From in writing Marriage After God. And then we're gonna also, after we read the introduction, answer some questions that they had, right?

[Aaron] Yeah, I spent some time today on your Instagram. I don't know if you knew this or not.

[Jennifer] I didn't know that.

[Aaron] And on my Instagram doing live videos and asking our followers if they had any questions about the book.

[Jennifer] Okay.

[Aaron] Man some good questions came out of it. I wrote down as many as I could and some of them are similar so I think we complied them into a general question. And we're gonna try and answer your questions about the book, in the hopes that you guys get so excited about this because it's a book for you. We wrote this book for you, for all of the followers that have been following us since the beginning.

[Jennifer] Well hold on, that's one of the questions I have.

[Aaron] Oh, okay.

[Jennifer] Let's jump in. Why did we write the book?

[Aaron] For all of you.

[Jennifer] No, why.

[Aaron] We wrote the book, we wrote the book out of a necessity that we saw in our own life. We saw what God was doing with us and we saw where God had taken us. And I think we realized that there was some people that thought that we were special or that people like us are the only ones doing something and should be doing something and not everyone has something to do that God doesn't have a part and a role to play for everyone in the body. And our heart was like, "no, we're just being faithful with what God's given us, but we want you to be faithful with what God's given you."

[Jennifer] Um hum.

[Aaron] I think that's where it came from. It's why we did the Marriage After God gathering a couple years ago.

[Jennifer] Um hum.

[Aaron] Was like hey, how can we have an intimate gathering. We had 12 couples come and we're like how can we inspire these couples to just go and just chase after God boldly. Chase after his will for their marriage and to be used as a marriage in unity to move his message in his kingdom forward.

[Jennifer] Yeah, that's our hope and desire for this book is that people would recognize that we are all part of his body building his kingdom.

[Aaron] Yeah, there's no one part that, oh those are the people, 'cause they have something special that God's gonna use them. Actually the Bible tells us something very different. It says that we're all, all parts of the body, and not one part can say to another part that you don't belong. And that's what it is. This Marriage After God is that we belong to the body of Christ and that there's power in our unity. In our oneness.

[Jennifer] Another reason we wrote the book was because we were actually walking out some of the things that we share over the last decade of time being together. The things that God revealed to us, little treasures and--

[Aaron] Things we're still learning of course.

[Jennifer] Exactly, that's what I was getting to, is that we're even still learning what it means to be a Marriage After God, but the things that we have learned or the things we've overcome, or the victories we've had. We wanted to share about it as a catalyst to encourage marriages out there because we all need that encouragement. We all need to be reminded that we're here to do something and that our marriage has great purpose. We wanted to kind of come alongside them. I have this picture in my mind of holding each other, linked in arms and marching forward.

[Aaron] Yeah, Christian marriages all over the world being used to glorify God, to spread the message of his goodness and it comes down to like this one sentence. The idea of the book. God has meant for more for our marriage than just happily ever after.

[Jennifer] Um, hum.

[Aaron] That our health in our marriage, our strength in our marriage, our joy in our marriage. All of those things are not just for us to enjoy. But that they're there to push us forward and be used for God. It's not just so that we can be like, "oh we're good, we reached it. Now we're like happy and this is all we need to focus on." We're excited. That's why we wrote the book. That's the big why.

[Jennifer] Awesome. Okay, why did we title it Marriage After God?

[Aaron] Ooh. See questions that I didn't know were coming. Why did we title it--

[Jennifer] The first thing that comes to my mind is we had originally wrote the devotionals which we shared about in the last episode, but Wife After God and Husband After God were 30-day devotionals that we really felt strongly were purpose to encourage husbands and wives to kind of chase after God in their individual role. Being a husband and wife--

[Aaron] His picture for them and what he wanted for them.

[Jennifer] Right and to draw them closer to God and closer to each other. When we thought about this book, we wanted it to be unifying. The natural progression was Marriage After God and it's the idea and picture of a marriage chasing boldly after the purpose that he has for a marriage.

[Aaron] There's mighty power in a husband chasing after God for their family even if his wife's not. There's mighty power in a wife chasing after God and serving him and loving him and being an example to her husband even if he's not. But man, the power of a husband and a wife chasing after God together and wanting his will for their life. Right there is the depth of this book. Is what we're trying to get at is, no no no. It's not just be happy where we're at, what does God have us together for? Why did he bring us to unity? Why did he make us one? 'Cause there is a meaning. There is a purpose behind it and we talk about it in the book.

[Jennifer] Um, hum. That's so good, okay now that all of their ears are itching and they want to get their hands on this book, who's it for?

[Aaron] This book is specifically for Christian married couples. I would not hesitate for a second to give it to someone who's not a believer. Because we preach the Gospel in the book quite a bit.

[Jennifer] Even marriages who feel like maybe they're hanging on by a thread or maybe there's just some conflict there that they can't seem to get over. It doesn't have to be for a marriage that is mature, or is already chasing after God together, or both are equally yoked. It literally is for every marriage.

[Aaron] Yeah, and the idea is that it's meant to be read together. It could totally be read separately, but I would totally encourage anyone who when they get the book, to read it with their spouse. Reading out loud together, or having their own copies and then talking about it as they go. But, it's for marriages. Also, I would see engaged couples reading this to prepare themselves where God wants their heart to be for marriage, so that they're working toward it now and they're praying about it now and they're saying, "okay Lord, we're gonna come together and we want this to be for you." It could totally be powerful for engaged couples as well.

[Jennifer] For any age. For any however long married.

[Aaron] Yeah, absolutely.

[Jennifer] It doesn't matter how many kids you have. There is no prerequisite to read this book.

[Aaron] Yeah, we didn't write it for a specific, the millennial Christian marriages. We wrote it for Christian marriages. Again, if they're not believers, this would be a great book to put in the hands of someone who doesn't believe yet and say, "hey, you want to see what God has for your marriage? Read this book."

[Jennifer] Okay, so what do we hope the impact will be for the Marriage After God book?

[Aaron] I hope that it sparks power and excitement in the hearts of husbands and wives around the world.

[Jennifer] Um, hum.

[Aaron] To say, wow, wait wait. God's good and he loves us and what he's doing in our marriage is awesome, but he wants us to move forward. He's got a plan for us together in how we're gonna use our talents, resources and gifts for his kingdom. And that we actually see action come out of this book.

[Jennifer] That's what I was gonna say is action.

[Aaron] Yeah, I think the other thing, and this is gonna go into some of the questions is, marriages leading and inspiring and encouraging other marriages.

[Jennifer] Yeah, the same hope that we desire for this book to become a catalyst in your life, our hope would also be that then you become a catalyst in someone else's life.

[Aaron] Oh absolutely, it's not just to point people back to us at all, actually. It's to point people to God. To His Word and to His will for their life. There's a few questions right around this idea and these are questions that people asked me in the live Instagram videos we did today.

[Jennifer] Cool, okay, last question before we read the introduction and then we'll get into those questions from our listeners. It is, how can those listening right now join us in becoming a movement starter? This goes back to our hope of what we hope this book does. They might here the word movement starter and go, "what's that?" What can we encourage them to do right now?

[Aaron] We called it a movement starter 'cause there's people that have been following us and are excited for what God's doing in marriages around the world and in their own marriage and for the kingdom of God. We hope that people are gonna take this book and they're gonna be like, "hey, we wanna spread the message of what God's doing, we wanna encourage other couples." The first thing I'd say is start praying. If you want to be a movement starter with us, start praying for the people that God is calling. That he wants to light a fire in. That he wants to draw out. The second thing I would say is pre-order a book. It's online right now, pretty much anywhere you buy books. Amazon, Barnes and Noble. I would suggest Amazon because they have a pre-order price guarantee where if the price lowers at any point during the next few months that you get the lowest price and they refund you the difference, which is awesome.

[Jennifer] And I just want to note for people coming back to this episode or listening to it past the date and it's not necessarily for pre-order anymore, just ordering the book helps spread the message.

[Aaron] Yeah, thank you for the ever greenness of that. Getting the book. And then I would say the last thing, and this is something you should start praying about now, is start praying about the two or three or four couples in your life right now that God might want you to invite over to your house to do a study with. Going through this book together.

[Jennifer] That's good.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] I wanna add too, one way that they can also participate in being a movement starter for this message of being a Marriage After God. Earlier we asked them to go follow us on Instagram @marriageafterGod and I wanna encourage you to post your Marriage After God story. Post a picture of you and your spouse together and share a little bit about what it means to you to be and have a Marriage After God and use the hashtag Marriage After God. Because we see those and it is such a powerful testimony of what God is doing in this world and when we share our testimony of what God's doing, his heart is revealed to the world. And so we want to utilize the power of social media to also further this message. And so if you do that and you tag Marriage After God, we see it, we're gonna repost as many as we can, and I just want to say thank you right now for those who already have been sharing their Marriage After God story and the ones that will.

[Aaron] Now, whether we're allowed to or not, I don't know. We're gonna read the entire introduction. It's a few pages, it's not very long. And this is from the book, Marriage After God. What if I told you that your marriage has a purpose far beyond happily ever after? What if I told you that the unity between you and your spouse was created for something extraordinary? God, your Creator and your Savior, has created you and your spouse with complete and perfect thoughtfulness. God, your provider and your heavenly Father has unlimited resources in immeasurable creativity. God, who is patient and loving, is pursuing you and your spouse every single day. Inviting you to participate in the extraordinary things He is already doing. Do you believe God wants more for your marriage than for you to just make each other happy? Do you believe God can do anything? Move mountains, open doors and part seas to get you to the place where he wants you the most? Belief is powerful. Belief propels people from a place of dreaming to a place of doing. Belief in God is confidence and trust in Him. Believing God made you and your marriage with great purpose is the beginning of an incredible adventure you will never regret. When Jennifer and I consider what spurred us toward a desire to serve God together, we agreed that it was our belief that God could and would use us as team for His glory. And that belief gave us the courage to say yes to Him over and over and over again. Even and especially during the hard times of our story. We said yes to God when we decided to stay together when it felt easier to walk away. We said yes to God when we chose to love each other even when we didn't feel so in love. We said yes to obeying His word when we did everything we could to get out of debt. We said yes to God when he showed us ways we could serve His body. And we said yes to God when he invited us to share our story. Not all of our yes' to God were easy, however, our mutual desire to please God is what helped us to say yes and to persevere. When Jennifer and I got married, we had a united desire to serve God together. We didn't know exactly what it would look like, but we were willing to explore the opportunities He had for us as a married couple. Throughout our time of dating and being engaged we prayed we would have an extraordinary marriage. However, we didn't stop there. We didn't only ask God for an extraordinary marriage, we also prayed God would use our marriage to do extraordinary things to build His kingdom. Since we said, "I do." And committed our marriage to the Lord, we have been on a journey of saying yes to God. A journey we both agree has been quite extraordinary. Not only because of the experiences we have had, or the accomplishments we have reached, but because God is extraordinary. And he longs to bring his extraordinary into our lives. He is the reason we have been able to endure this journey together. We have experienced both poverty and abundance. We have traveled to different parts of the world as missionaries motivated to share the Gospel with others. We have started businesses and ministries. We have overcome destructive sin patterns. We have grown our family size intentionally striving to leave a legacy with our children. And we continue to participate in God's plan for our lives as He invites us to do all that He prepared for us to do together. But it is all because of God. He gets the glory in our lives.

[Jennifer] Our journey has not been void of the enemies attacks to thwart God's purpose for our marriage. In fact, the enemies flaming arrows in combination with our own sin almost destroyed our marriage. Pornography addiction, emotional eating, irrational jealousy, foolishness and constant battles of selfishness and pride have all been difficult areas of our marriage that we have had to battle. The hardships we have encountered in marriage have been painful. We have often wrestled with doubt and insecurities about our relationship with each other and with God. Yet no matter what we faced, and no matter what we will face in the future, we continue to pray that God will give us an extraordinary marriage and that He will use our marriage for his extraordinary purposes.

[Aaron] In 2011, Jennifer and I launched our online marriage ministries, and To share with husbands and wives what God was teaching us about marriage. When we began these ministries, we had no idea what they would become. Motivated by a perspective that our lives are a ministry for God to work through. We said yes to God when he invited us to share our story with the world. In a way we were already familiar with, blogging.

[Jennifer] Through these two sites we share daily marriage prayers, encouragement, biblical teaching on faith and marriage, date night ideas and reviews of Christian books and movies. We share personal stories of what we have experienced in our own marriage and how God continues to transform us into the husband and wife he created us to be. Since the first day we created these ministries, our desire has been to encourage married couples to turn their hearts toward God and trust in Him with their marriage. With the few tools we had in our tool belt we got started and this adventure quickly grew into an unimaginable reach into the hearts and homes of couples all around the world. With the influence we were gaining in the lives of other married couples, we asked the Lord to use us to encourage them to be biblical men and women. We were confident that if we could inspire them and challenge them to be people who read God's Word and desire His will for their lives, that God would move in these marriages and use them for the marvelous work He desires His people to do. We imagined hundreds of thousands of strong, thriving marriages reflecting God's love story and impacting the lives of others as they faithfully live out all that God has called them to. We envisioned husbands and wives being unified in their relationship and in their parenting, full of joy and contentment. We could see communities being blessed by the lives and examples of these couples. We could see relationships being healed. Needs being met. Talents being used. Businesses and ministries being started. And the lost being saved. Because husbands and wives said yes to God. Working together to build his kingdom.

[Aaron] Eager to see husbands and wives embrace what God has for them, we wondered how we could inspire them to start considering the purpose of their marriage and help guide them to set the foundation necessary to fulfill that purpose. We wanted to point them to the Word of God and prompt them to answer some challenging questions. We felt led to write two devotionals that would lead a husband and wife through God's Word and invite them to consider how they can actively pursue an extraordinary God-centered marriage. We co-authored and self-published Husband After God and Wife After God. 30-day devotionals that have been read by 1000's of men and women. Not long after publishing our devotionals, we began to receive messages from couples asking what they could read next to encourage them on their marriage journey. So we began to consider what resource we could provide next to inspire husbands and wives to consider chasing after God. This is the seed that would grow into the message of Marriage After God. We knew God wanted more couples to pray the same prayer we have been praying and to experience his extraordinary purpose for their lives. Yet, we believed it was also a message God wanted us to experience in our marriage for ourselves. He wanted us to mature in our relationship with each other and with Him. We wouldn't say we are done experiencing what it means to have a Marriage After God. In reality, this will be a message we will continue to live out and pursue until Christ returns or we are called home. However, God has given us an incredible opportunity to present this message to others through this book. To inspire husbands and wives who want to chase after Him. And to do His will together. And we are eager to see how God uses this book to do His work in all of our lives.

[Jennifer] A Marriage After God is an extraordinary journey of making ourselves known to God, knowing God and being willing to let Him use our marriages for His purposes. And Marriage After God is one that can faithfully say what the people of Israel said in Exodus 19:8. "All that the Lord has spoken, we will do." Happily ever after is a nice thought and a good thing to hope for. But it should not be your end goal. There's an amazing purpose for your marriage. More than just making each other happy. We desire you to pursue kingdom purposes with your marriage. To be a testimony to others of God's love and amazing grace. This world we live in has been tainted by darkness, but you are called to be the light of the world. It is you and your marriage that should be the light people long to experience. But you cannot be a light for others if you are allowing your marriage to be overrun by darkness. Those who belong to God have been created for so much more. You have been created for so much more. And your spouse has been created for so much more. Our vision for this book is to get you and your spouse excited about using your marriage for God. We desire that you two experience the incredible intimacy of unity as you boldly chase after God's will and purpose for your marriage.

[Aaron] This book is for the marriages who are ready to finally see what God brought them together for. Maybe you and your spouse have been having conversation about what is next. What you should be investing in, or how you can be used by God to effectively fulfill the purpose he created you for. The purpose he brought you together for. You have been in a great place in your marriage and with God, but there is a tugging on your heart to do something more. You picked up this book because you don't want to be stagnant. You want to experience this extraordinary. Our hope and prayer is that this book takes you on a journey of discovery, inspiration and affirmation as God invites you to work together as a team for His glory.

[Jennifer] If you and your spouse are in a different place, a broken place where you are barely hanging on, our hope is that this book will be the very thing to convince you to turn your heart back toward God and have the courage to change your perspective of your spouse and your marriage. Maybe it'll be the very thing your marriage needs to push you closer to the only one who can help you put it back in order.

[Aaron] So we welcome you. No matter what condition your marriage is currently in and we challenge you to take this adventure with us to commit your marriage to God. And see how he moves in your life, your spouses life, and the many other lives he will impact because you were willing to say yes to Him. Everything begins with a first step. Reading this book is your first step. We pray it won't be long before you and your spouse are running with your hearts aligned with God's toward the extraordinary good work God has already prepared for you to do.

[Jennifer] You were created for this. Ephesians 2:10 confirms this declaring. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." You and our spouse were made by God and your marriage relationship was designed by Him to do good works for His name sake. Works that he had in mind long before you were created. You can believe this truth and so be empowered to walk in the extraordinary purpose you have been uniquely created by God to do.

[Aaron] So that was the introduction to Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] Who's read to jump in?

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Aaron] Yeah, it's convicting reading our own books sometimes.

[Jennifer] Yeah, we have tears in our eyes every time we have the chance to read it, which has been several times now. We get this stirring in our hearts and this question of what do we do next? What are we gonna do for Him?

[Aaron] What we're gonna answer some questions that people from the community have given us about the book. And then we're gonna close with the prayer that was at the end of the introduction. It's actually in the book. There's a prayer that we put in there. The first question is, will there be questions in the book, journal or discussion questions?

[Jennifer] Yeah, at the end of every chapter, there are a set of one to three questions that have to do with that chapters topic.

[Aaron] There's another question that goes along with this. Is it a book or is it a devotional? A devotional is smaller chunks of content with questions to discuss. But we wanted to clarify that this is a 16 chapter, 50 plus 1000 word book with questions at the end. It can be used like a devotional, but it is definitely a book. It's a hard cover book with a jacket. It's definitely distinct from a devotional. Especially like our Husband and Wife After God devotionals. Which are like a hundred pages. This is significantly

[Jennifer] Larger.

[Aaron] Larger, yeah.

[Jennifer] Okay, so the next question is, can the questions be done as a couple?

[Aaron] Oh, absolutely. Our hope is that this book is done--

[Jennifer] Together.

[Aaron] With your spouse.

[Jennifer] Our recommendation is that you actually use the questions in the back as discussion questions going into a date night, or maybe you guys have time set aside to read the book together. Maybe you read that chapter and then you use the questions to stimulate that conversation.

[Aaron] Yeah, maybe it's like a nightly routine. You guys read a chapter together. Discuss the questions together and that was the intention of them. But yes, there'll be questions at the end of each chapter. Yes, you can do them separately and then maybe talk about them together. But we totally always encourage couples to do them together.

[Jennifer] Can small groups go through the book?

[Aaron] We said this in the beginning. Our heart is that

[Jennifer] You do.

[Aaron] You do. Yeah, this would be so awesome if when we started hearing testimonies of couples saying, "hey we invited two of our married friends over and we're doing this every week now." 16 week Bible study would be amazing and just reading a chapter kind of like a book club. Read a chapter as a group and then come together and discuss the questions maybe. Some of the questions might be too intimate to do in a group, but hey.

[Jennifer] You never know.

[Aaron] Yeah, that would be amazing. I'm excited to hear about that. This is kind of along the same lines. Someone says would you recommend a husband and wife go through the book first and then do a group?

[Jennifer] I would say yeah, just so that you can wrap your head around what the message of a Marriage After God is. And then jump into it. I feel like you would have a better experience overall facilitating a group like that.

[Aaron] Yeah, but if you are wanting to do this right away. Let's say you have a bunch of friends or like hey let's just do this together and get--

[Jennifer] You absolutely could do that.

[Aaron] Absolutely. Either or, but if you are the only one that got the book and your friends don't know about it yet, maybe go through it first. And then invite them. Yeah, absolutely if you wanted to do it together right away, that should probably be really fun because you'd be experiencing the book at the same time.

[Jennifer] Cool, okay so the next question is. I can never say these two words together.

[Aaron] Will there

[Jennifer] Will there be video lessons with this book?

[Aaron] Probably eventually. Definitely not when the book launches. Unless we like hustle. But yes, there's gonna be eventually a workbook. There'll eventually be videos to go along with it.

[Jennifer] That was one of the questions too. Is there a study guide to go along with it?

[Aaron] Yeah, those will come later. My wife and I do all those together. And it's pretty much just us, so we will produce stuff eventually. This was a really cool question I got. Someone said we'd love to know if there's gonna be other groups doing it together? And they said it in a way like it'd be scary doing it on our own, like being the only group doing it. And they said it'd be awesome if we knew that hundreds of other groups were doing it at the same time. Or doing it so you'd be like, "oh, we're not the only ones doing this together."

[Jennifer] It's a global community, kind of doing the same thing.

[Aaron] I don't know how we're gonna do this, but I think we, Jennifer, should think about how we can have some sort of sign-up where people can say, "hey, we're doing this just so that other people know that it's being done."

[Jennifer] I love that and I know this. With so many people on social media, if you take a picture of your group and--

[Aaron] That's exactly what it should be, yeah.

[Jennifer] Use the hashtag Marriage After God. When that posts and we see it, we'll repost that and then people will start to see it happening.

[Aaron] That's a great way of doing it. If you're meeting with a group, every single time you meet, take a picture. And post it and we'll post about it. And what that'll do is, that'll encourage other people like, "hey, we got the book, let's do a group." That's a great idea.

[Jennifer] Okay, you mentioned this already, but can engaged couples get the book and read it?

[Aaron] I say yeah. I don't feel like that there's any content in it that's inappropriate for an engaged couple.

[Jennifer] The only thing I will say is depending on the questions in the back of the book, if there's intimate ones or one's that maybe you can't relate to because you're not married yet, save them to discuss till after you're married.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] Because if they're engaged, they usually have a date.

[Aaron] What might also be cool, is if the couple wanna go through the book separately and then after they get married discuss the questions on how they thought they might answer or--

[Jennifer] Oh that's cool.

[Aaron] Some sort of fun, like go through the book during the engaged season.

[Jennifer] Maybe use them as journal questions.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] Write about it.

[Aaron] Talk about how I might answer that after I'm married, or after I'm a wife, after I'm a husband. And then come together and go through it together again and see how your answers match up maybe. That'd be a really fun exercise. Here's a question that someone asked. Will there be a bundle discount for churches, for groups?

[Jennifer] First of all, what is a bundle discount?

[Aaron] They buy a bunch of books, 20 books, 25 books, and they get a discount as a group discount. Yes, I don't know what that looks like and it's gonna definitely happen after the book launches and I don't know when, but we will definitely let people know how that'll work so churches can definitely get bundle discounts.

[Jennifer] Okay, the next question is. Does it have our personal testimony as a marriage in it?

[Aaron] That's what's cool about this book is much of the book is principles and ideas and concepts that the Lord taught us through very specific times in our life.

[Jennifer] Yep.

[Aaron] Difficulties, successes.

[Jennifer] Conversations.

[Aaron] Conversations, relationships we've had. You did the chronological story thing in the Unveiled Wife.

[Jennifer] Yeah, which there's way more detail about our marriage story in there.

[Aaron] But from your perspective.

[Jennifer] And just from my perspective.

[Aaron] Where this is the last 12 years of our marriage and it's lots of stories, lots of relational things.

[Jennifer] And it's both of us.

[Aaron] And it's both of us.

[Jennifer] A lot of stories that I couldn't have shared in the Unveiled Wife because they happen after the fact.

[Aaron] Exactly. Yes it does, but they're used as illustrations for the ideas that we're trying to convey, so yes and yes. What can a single person expect to get out of this book? This is kind of along the lines as the engaged thing.

[Jennifer] I think that a single person reading this book will get really fired up for the desire of marriage. Which they probably already have. But they'll be really excited to jump into marriage with that heart of prayer to have an extraordinary marriage to use their marriage for God to build his kingdom. I think their perspective of marriage will be have a Godly and biblical foundation.

[Aaron] Yeah, singles are definitely not the intended audience for this book, but if someone read it, that's thinking, "man, I wanna prepare for marriage, I wanna be preparing my heart and my mind." It'll definitely, introspectively point them to say, "wow, am I actually thinking this way?" What am I thinking marriage is gonna do for me versus what is our marriage gonna do for God? I think it'd be really powerful for someone thinking about marriage, preparing for marriage to go through it, although it's not the intended audience. That was a handful of the questions that we got. I love the group questions that people are excited to do them in groups and I can't wait to start seeing photos posted. I think that was a great suggestion.

[Jennifer] I know. If someone wants to be a movement starter, a Marriage After God movement starter, remind them what they can do.

[Aaron] Pray, just pray for the hearts that God's calling that who's gonna get this book. Pray for us.

[Jennifer] Pray for marriages, because they're under attack just by the enemy.

[Aaron] Pray that God's will just be done in this world through us. Get a copy of our book.

[Jennifer] Go order right now, please.

[Aaron], search for Marriage After God. You'll find that it's a big read book.

[Jennifer] With pretty sparkles of gold.

[Aaron] Then start praying and asking what couples in your life God might want you to invite to do a home group at your house with this book. I hope that answered some questions for you guys. I hope you guys are excited like we are for the book Marriage After God. It comes out June 4th. And before we close today. Oh you know what we never told anyone?

[Jennifer] What the series--

[Aaron] What the series is gonna be like

[Jennifer] Okay, brace yourselves.

[Aaron] Okay, the next 16 episodes of the Marriage After God podcast are all gonna be geared around topics from the Marriage After God book.

[Jennifer] But how cool is this guys? We have awesome people coming on. We're gonna interview them about being and having a marriage after God.

[Aaron] Yeah. We haven't done any interviews on this podcast. It's not every, actually no every--

[Jennifer] It's every episode.

[Aaron] Is gonna be an interview. That's so cool. The next 16 episodes are gonna be interviews with friends of ours. People that we've done ministry with in the past. All sorts of cool people. You should be excited about that. We are excited about it. Before we close, I'm gonna read the prayer from the end of the introduction of our book. Would you join us in prayer? Dear Lord, we pray for the husbands and wives reading this book. May your Holy Spirit use this book to inspire their hearts to boldly chase after you and to say yes to the extraordinary invitation you have prepared for them. We pray this couple will grow in their understanding of the power and purpose of their marriage. Reveal to them the specific plans you have for them. We pray you would use this marriage to do incredible work to build your kingdom. In this dark world may you protect this couple from the attacks of the enemy. May you cleanse them from sin and continue to shape them into the husband and wife you created them to be. May they realize they bear your image and that they are a light in this world and a beacon of hope to the lost and lonely. We ask you to guide this couple and unite them as a team. To carry out the unique purposes you have for them. In Jesus name, Amen.

[Jennifer] Amen.

[Aaron] Thank you for joining us on the first episode kicking off our Marriage After God series on the Marriage After God podcast.

[Jennifer] So much Marriage After God.

[Aaron] Yeah, lots of Marriage After God. We hope you're being inspired. We hope you're getting excited. God's got huge plans for you. We know it. He's got plans for us. It's not like he's only got plans for us, that's why we wrote this book. He's got plans for all of us. We're part of his body and we just pray that you would know that. That you would know that he wants to show you why he created you and why he brought you and your spouse together. We love you. We thank you for joining us and I pray that you look forward to the next 16 episodes and we'll see you next week.

[Aaron] Did you enjoy today's show? Find many more encouraging stories and resources And let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Feb 06, 2019
The Importance Of Doing A Marriage Devotional Together

Get the Husband and Wife After God 30-day devotionals today.

Quote From Husband After God on page 16

“Marriage is an opportunity to bring glory to God as you share with
the world His testimony by loving your wife the way Christ loves the

Quote From Wife After God on page 117

“Being a submissive wife is beautiful, as it reflects God’s divine
order. When a husband loves his wife like Christ loves and a wife
submits to her husband, that reflection clearly represents God’s
grace-filled love story. The benefits in a marriage like this are

Why its important to do a marriage devotional together:

  • Cultivating oneness and intimacy Get on the same page Growing in the
    word of God together Stimulates conversation Being ready in and out
    of season give an answer for the hope that you have Investment for
    marriage Example for our children you have something to pass on
    suggesting do this...

Firstly, we wanted to share this information with you today because we are going into a Podcast series starting next week about our upcoming book Marriage After God! We hope you are pumped for this, we are and we cant wait for this book release! This series launching next week will give you insight into the book and of course, leave you with wanting even more!

So before we get into that series, we thought we would dive deep into our devotionals for husbands and wives BECAUSE those of you who have already been through them have asked us what's next...which was a catalyst for us to write the marriage after God book...and also for those of you who havent had a chance to go through these devotionals yet or any of you who want to go through them again, we wanted to let you know that right now is the perfect time to do them leading up to the Marriage After God book release. We have about 4ish months till then which is ample time to get through the 30-day devotionals.

A few things people have said about these devotionals:

"Life changing - This book is truly a godsend! My marriage is better
using the books! My husband and I read them daily and it’s helping us
to grow in our marriage and closer to God! We were just recently
baptized December 31, 2018 and this has been an awesome read for us to
continue to have God at the center of our marriage. Daily this book
hits home and I’m learning more about being a good wife!! Thank you so
much for this book and I truly hope all Christian couples read these!" - Diamond S.

"Just what our marriage needed! Awesome! It brought us closer together
while also enhancing our individual walk with God. Opened our eyes to
things we were and weren’t doing and being accountable. Very powerful
devotionals! Highly recommended! A+++++" - William M.

"Simply AMAZING I bought both bundles; Husband/Wife After God and 31
Prayers for your husband/wife and my husband and I are doing both
together. OMGOODNESS, it really is good. Very well written and when I
say these will open up your eyes, I'm not kidding. And get your steel
toe boots on. These two books have helped us start off in a place
where God can show up and take over. We have only been doing these
less than two weeks, and God shows up every day relating these books
to our daily lives. God speaks through people and uses people to
minister to others and boy has he here. If you want God to show up and
you really want to love God through your spouse and how to do it.
These books right here is where you start!!" - Krystal W.

*Dear Lord,

Thank you for creating marriage. Thank you for considering our counterpart and complement. Thank you that we do not have to endure life alone. Not only do we get to live with the presence of Your Holy Spirit and our spouse, but we also get to benefit from living in community with other believers. May we walk together in unity as You have always intended us to. Please continue to draw us closer to Yourself and closer to each other. Continue to transform our hearts and our minds, so that our character reflects your character. Help us to intentionally invest in marriage by learning how to fulfill our roles as husbands and wives. Thank you for revealing to us why You created marriage and the purpose it has in this world. May this purpose motivate us to walk righteously every day. Remind us daily that our marriage is a symbol to this hurting world of Your powerful and unconditional love. We pray that as Christian husbands and wives, we aim to minister to one another in our marriages by being obedient to all that You have commanded through Your Word. May we be prayer warriors who do not neglect to pray for one another. We pray that as we make ourselves known to You and to each other, that we experience extraordinary intimacy. We pray for your will to be done in our marriages and through our marriages and may You be glorified.

In Jesus’ name, amen!*

[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

[Aaron] And today, we're gonna talk about the importance of doing a marriage devotional together. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.

[Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife.

[Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution.

[Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade.

[Aaron] And so far, we have four young children.

[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media.

[Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day.

[Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life.


And power.

[Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God.

[Jennifer] Together.

[Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey, as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.

[Jennifer] This is Marriage After God.

[Aaron] Hey, thanks for joining us this week. We wanna invite you, as always, to leave a review on the podcast. The reviews, the star ratings, those all help other people, other marriages, find this podcast and get the content,. So if you enjoy what you been hearing, and you haven't done it yet, would you leave us a review today? That'd be awesome.

[Jennifer] Also, if you've been enjoying this podcast, we would like to encourage you and ask you to shop on our online store as a way to support this podcast. So if you go to, you can see all of our resource there. We just want you to know that we wrote those for you guys, but also it helps support things like this podcast, so thank you so much for shopping with us. Also, I'd just like to highlight the discussion that we're going to be talking about today happens to be on marriage devotionals. So be sure to check out Husband and Wife After God.

[Aaron] Yeah, those are our two devotionals that we wrote for husbands and wives to go through together. They can go through them separately, too, right?


But we'll talk about that.

[Jennifer] But if you're shopping on the store, you can check those out, and there's more information there for you, specifically on those devotionals.

[Aaron] Awesome. So, icebreaker question, all right?

[Jennifer] Dun dun dun.

[Aaron] What is your definition of "and they lived happily ever after?"

[Jennifer]Okay, so, we've talked about this before, but we're not really into this phrase. It's a hopeful and a happy phrase, for sure.

[Aaron] Yeah, it's--

[Jennifer] But at the end of my book--

[Aaron] It's got a dead end on it, I feel like.

[Jennifer] Well, I think at the end of my book, the end of our story, I'd much rather hear the line, and "they entered heaven, "and God said with a smile on His face, "well done, my good and faithful servants." To me, that's more powerful.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] Than happily ever after. Which means that we used our marriage for His purposes, and not just our own, and in the process being happy is a byproduct of


serving Him.

Yeah, just, it--

It might mean--

It feels one goal focused, and word focused of we're just going to be happy for the rest of our lives, and I don't, first of all, it's not even possible. The Bible tells us that we will endure trials and things like that, so when I think of it, I actually wanna reword it and say, "and they lived joyfully ever after God."

[Jennifer] Oh, there you go.

[Aaron] Like as a marriage, we're chasing after him.

[Jennifer] Kinda the same thing.

[Aaron] Yeah, but its with joy, which is more of, it's something that exists even when we're not happy. Because when things aren't easy and hard, we can have joy, but instead of just "happily ever after" like the white picket fence, just the American Dream, or just things going well for the rest of our marriage. We have a bigger purpose of, it's not just to make us happy, but it's to pursue God and what He's doing in His kingdom, so I would just change. Yeah, we've never really liked that phrase. It's not that it's a bad phrase.

[Jennifer] No.

[Aaron] It just doesn't feel deep enough

Or complete.

Or long, or long-lasting enough, yeah.

[Jennifer] It's not complete.

[Aaron] Alright, we'll move on to the topic. That was an okay question, we'll have a better question next week, one that's funnier I think, 'cause those are usually funny questions, huh?

[Jennifer] Not always.

[Aaron] So we're gonna be talking about our devotionals a little later, but we have some quotes from them to start off the episode with, and this is a quote from my devotional Husband After God. It's on page 16, it says, "Marriage is an opportunity "to bring glory to God as you share with the world "His testimony by loving your wife "the way Christ loves the church."

[Jennifer] Okay, and I'm gonna share my quote from Wife After God, it's on page 117. "Being a submissive wife is beautiful, "as it reflects God's divine order. "When a husband loves his wife like Christ loves, "and a wife submits to her husband, "that reflection clearly represents "God's grace-filled love story. "The benefits in a marriage like this are extraordinary." So they kinda mirror each other, they go hand in hand.

[Aaron] Well, now that's the reason we wrote the devotionals, was to highlight for the husband and wife, why they're married and why God has His order and His ways for us to follow. It's because we have a message to proclaim.

[Jennifer] Mm-huh.

[Aaron] We have a purpose in this world. Which again goes to the bigger picture of what we wrote Marriage After God for, which comes out in June, which is just that. That our marriages are a ministry and that when we walk the way the Bible calls us to walk. We actually proclaim His message to the world, which is pretty incredible.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] To think about that, our marriages have much more to do in this world than just make us happy, which goes back to our question, really. But let's start off the topic with why it's important to do a marriage devotional together. 'Cause I'm sure there's a lot of marriages out there, people listening, that are wondering like, "hey, we do our devotionals separately, but what benefit could it be for us to do one together?

[Jennifer] Or maybe they're not doing any together or any at all, and they've been waiting for something, they're looking for something. We're hoping that this catches their attention and maybe inspire them to get started on one today.

[Aaron] Yeah, so let's talk about some of the benefits, some of the things that come to mind that could be, that could come out as fruit,

[Jennifer] Okay.

[Aaron] from doing a devotional together.

[Jennifer] So the first thing that comes to mind is just cultivating oneness and intimacy from the experience of doing it together.


So, focusing and being intentional in the act of doing something together like a marriage devotional.

[Aaron] Right, 'cause usually, if we have books that we read at night, often it's just to ourselves. It's, we're the only ones benefiting from it, or enjoying it, but a devotional that we can do together. If it's in the evening or in the morning, or in the afternoon, whenever that works. It's an intentional time to be together in the Word of God. It requires conversation, introspective thinking, dialogue, lots of stuff that would go on, that which cultivates more and more intimacy.


Right? Instead of us just, I work, come home, how was your day, awesome. We actually can go deep and say, hey, what did you think of that scripture or how does that make you feel or hey, that reminds me of when I was a kid and...

[Jennifer] Yeah, and just to take it one step further, when you consider a devotional, you're usually gonna find those kind of journal questions or discussion questions or, like you said, to think introspectively, that you can use as conversation starters. 'Cause some people, they want to share their hearts with their spouse, but they don't really know how to--

That's a good point, yeah.

or where to start, and so a marriage devotional will usually take the hardness out of the equation and say, here talk about this.


[Jennifer] And both people can look at the paper and go, oh! Or look at the book or look at whatever they're looking at and say, that's what we have to discuss, so we're gonna talk about that right now.

[Aaron] Yeah, so they could stretch our intimacy muscles. How deep can we go in the conversation? The things that we could talk about. Those questions are usually formulated to cause deeper discussion than you would normally get into. It's a good point, and you know what? Growing spiritually is a very intimate thing.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] The deepest part of us is our spirit and we're cultivating that with each other. Praying with each other is an extremely intimate thing. We're entering the throne room of God together, we are praying together, we are lifting each other's hearts up, we're hearing each other's hearts, and then discussing the Word of God together, those are super intimate things.

[Jennifer] Yeah, growing in the word of God together, that's a powerful thing for a marriage to be doing. I think that we all should be doing that.

[Aaron] Okay, well, of course. Like as Christians, we're called to grow and mature, but as marriages, as a single unit, as one, we should be growing and maturing together also. Not growing and maturing separately only. That should be happening, but growing together, and I think what's awesome about doing a devotional together, also allows us to be accountable to each other.


Right? If we've been discussing, self-control, or our anger, or anything that this devotional might be calling out of us, we can actually pay attention together instead of me trying to work on it privately,

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] and you don't really know what I'm working on. We actually could say, hey, remember the devotional last night we were just talking about this, like hey, let's working on that.

[Jennifer] That's good.

[Aaron] And I feel like you might've forgot the thing that we've committed to because of that question we answered the other night. So it helps us to be working on similar things throughout the day and keep each other accountable, and look out for each other's growth and maturity.

[Jennifer] Another benefit is being an example for your children, and when those children become adults and they're married, you can say, have suggestions for them. Hey, we did this marriage devotional, we did that together. You and your spouse should try that.

[Aaron] Yeah, and then they also see us, especially if we do visible, like in front of them, periodically, maybe not every day, but, hey, mommy and daddy are gonna do our quiet time together now, you guys can look at your books or go play quietly with your legos, and they know that that's an important thing to us, that we separate time to be in the Word together. It actually kinda convinced me thinking about it right now, we should do that more.

[Jennifer] Yeah, we should.

[Aaron] We should be getting away more together, so let's start doing that.

[Jennifer] Okay, deal.

[Aaron] I was gonna say, another thing I think about is, again, going back to the main purpose why we, our marriage exists, what God wants to do in us, is that there's a message to be proclaimed, there's a mission to be accomplished. I think of that scripture that tells us to be ready in and out of season, it tells us to be ready to give an answer for the hope that we have in us, and doing a devotional together and growing together on the same page, in the Word of God and learning what He has to say to us and what he wants to do through us. It helps us be ready for when our neighbor says, "hey, what's so different about your life, "why do you believe in this God of yours?" We're prepared together, instead of maybe you not--

Not knowing or...

Not being ready or me not be in the same place.

[Jennifer] Yeah, it's good.

[Aaron] Yeah, but we would both be prepared to give an answer for our faith.

[Jennifer] Yep, and the last thing I think of with all of these things that we've already shared about the importance of doing a marriage devotional together is simply that it's investment for your marriage. So, the quality time you're spending together to do it, the intimacy that you are cultivating when discussing difficult things or very deep things, and, like you said, being ready to share the hope that you have. All of these things are an investment into the marriage relationship, and when you invest into your marriage, you're growing in that relationship, you're building trust, you're building closeness, that bond between you, and I feel like that will strengthen a couple to go even further.

[Aaron] Yeah, and keep going.

[Jennifer] Like year after year after year. So I just wanted to make that note.

[Aaron] That's good, so and the end result of pursuing God together, growing and maturing together, growing the Word of God together, doing a devotional together, all of these things to cultivate the oneness and intimacy and strength. The benefit and result is becoming and living as biblical men and women.

[Aaron] We become more like what the Bible says. We represent that more, which has benefits also. When we just become the kind of people God desires us to be. There's benefits, and what are some of those?

[Jennifer] So, you know, I just think of advancing as a Christian, and we get to do that together. So we see areas of our life that are weak, and maybe doing a devotional together could point to an aspect of our lives that needs to be transformed or worked on or practiced.

Or cut out altogether.

[Jennifer] Or cut out altogether, and we get to see us take steps towards growth in those areas. So we're moving forward not backwards.

[Aaron] Yeah, when we walk in the way that the Word tells us to and calls us to, we experience more love, we learn about it more, we're filled more with God's love in us. So our marriage, we benefit from that, and our children benefit from that.

[Jennifer] Totally.

[Aaron] And our neighbors. The people that we interact with, there's more joy, more love, more peace.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] All those, you know, fruit of the spirit is in us.

[Jennifer] Yeah, it's good.

[Aaron] And that's a huge benefit of walking in obedience to the things that the Word calls us to.

[Jennifer] Yeah, some other benefits are just, when you're working on areas of yourself to be more like God, I feel like He draws things out of your heart that need to be worked on, like being healthier with choices that you make, or being wiser, you know, like those kinds of things.

[Aaron] Be better stewards of our resources, our money.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] Which all benefit our marriage, our life, our relationships, and then the most important thing, and we brought this up a moment ago, is the Gospel, the good news about Jesus Christ and what He came to this Earth to do for us is spread because we are in His Word and we're growing. And we look for opportunities to talk to people about God, and to love on people for God, and to share our story with people. That's the fruit that comes out of us, it's an overflow of what God puts in us. So we're talking about the benefits of doing a devotional, of getting into the Word of God together, but is that, I think of the devotionals we made and how can we share with them more about our devotionals and whether or not they might wanna jump in today. Just getting in the Word of God. 'Cause even if you don't get our devotionals, ever, or anyone else's devotionals, being in the Word of God together is more than adequate. It's what God wants us to do,


invest in His Word.

[Jennifer] And we don't have to over complicate it, like seriously, just open up the Bible, read a chapter or two and talk about it. Ask each other the simple question of what stood out to you, start there.

[Aaron] Yeah, and we try and do that. Sometimes, some nights I just read out loud. We don't talk about anything, we just, I read out loud until Jennifer falls asleep, or until we're just like, okay, awesome. And usually it ends up in a really great conversation about something that was triggered by what we read. You know, oh that made me think of today when, or last week I forgot to mention, and we have these really good conversations around the Word of God, but you know, we've had a lot of people over the years ask us about devotionals and want things to do together, and we made two devotionals, Husband After God and Wife after God, separate ones, because there are some marriages where the spouse isn't in the same place and so, we've had many people just buy just the devotional for themselves and start going through and start praying for their husbands or getting into the Word of God.

[Jennifer] Or sometimes they buy the bundle in hopes that the other person will read theirs.

[Aaron] Yep, we've seen that a lot also. We've actually seen people say, "hey, I didn't think my husband was gonna do it,"

And then he did.

and then he totally started doing it. But the main point is that you do it together.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] You get these devotionals, you read through them, and so let's talk a little bit about these devotionals. Why don't you start off and then we'll just dig in to some of the information about them and maybe people will love the idea.

[Jennifer] Yeah, so like Aaron said, our biggest thing here today is just to give you guys a little bit of insight to our marriage devotionals, but overall just encourage you to be doing something together, because it will cultivate that intimacy and oneness. But we wanna give you some insight into our devotionals, just to give you an option and show you what's out there. So, I wrote Wife After God. The subtitle is Drawing Closer to God and Your Husband. It's a 30 day marriage devotional. I wrote this back in 2013, right after I had Elliot.

That was a long time ago.

[Jennifer] Yep, and, I wanted something that a wife could hold in her hands that would help her better understand God's purpose and design for marriage and her role as a wife and to see that reflection, that picture, that's talked about in Ephesians 5 of Christ's relationship to the church.

[Aaron] Yeah, it started off with, we wanted to, you wanted to show wives the ministry they had in their marriage

Yes. toward their husband.


[Aaron] Which is what the Bible shows us on both sides that the husband has a ministry to his wife and the wife has a ministry to her husband, and the symbol, like you said, it shows to the world.

[Jennifer] So I'm just gonna read couple of these, I'm not gonna read through all of them, but these are just some of the chapter titles, so that they can get an idea for it. God's Purpose for Your Marriage. The Need for Companionship. Ministry of Reconciliation. Perfect Posture.

[Aaron] That's a good one. You actually get a lot of comments about that chapter.

I do. Wisdom Calls Out. Who You Are Called to Be. The Parts of Marriage. Fruitfulness. Intimacy With God. Love Letter to Your Husband. That's what it ends on, which I love that one. But that's just a handful of them and we'll get to the Husband After God.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] After we kind of, summarize Wife After God, 'Cause I want the guys to hear what's in yours, which is,


it's just as good. So anyways, the way that I outlined this is share about a page to a page and a half of whatever that topic is.

[Aaron] And it's usually story-driven, it's either from our life, or another story we've heard to illustrate the point.

[Jennifer] Yep, and then it goes into a prayer for that day specific to that day, and then you'll see a challenge, which is usually a challenge for you and your relationship with God or you in your relationship with your husband. So hopefully those inspire you guys just to do something you either have never done before or maybe haven't done in a really long time to cultivate that intimacy. Then there's the status update, which I don't know if a lot of people see in books, but we've decided to put the status update challenge in there for people who want to share this message that they're learning with people on social media. That's another way that this message of Wife After God gets out. It can be a catalyst for people to ask, hey what are you doing? What is that thing that you keep posting about? And it just gives a real quick glimpse in one sentence of that day's topic.

[Aaron] Yeah, it's also a way of solidifying and vocalizing some of the things you're choosing to walk in. So you're stating it publicly. I'm going to be or I'm going to do, and then it makes it a real thing. Instead of it just in your mind, you're like oh, I'll work on that some day.

[Jennifer] And what I love seeing is when people tag me in these and they post a picture of their wedding day with it, or a recent picture.

They do that a lot. They post pictures from their wedding day, which is awesome.

[Jennifer] Or a recent picture of them together.

[Aaron] Yeah, I love that. And it encourages other couples, they say, "oh what is that?" And they want to be a part of it, and it's just a neat way of spreading the Gospel, spreading the message of being a godly wife, being a godly husband and what that means.

[Jennifer] And each day has specific scriptures that support the topics that we're sharing, which I don't want to skip over, but just so you guys know, the reason we didn't quote the scripture in there is because we want you to get into the Word of God yourselves, so we just list the scriptures.

[Aaron] Yeah, 'cause people always ask, "what version of the Bible did you use in the verses?" All we say, well, we just put the references, not the actual scriptures, so it's all our content, and what's awesome is it requires you to open your Bible.

[Jennifer] Yep, and--

[Aaron] Which is the focus.

[Jennifer] The last thing I wanna share is one of my favorite parts of these devotionals and it's the journal questions after each day's, at the end of each day, and you can use these. We gave space under each question that you can fill it out right then and there or you can use them and fill it out in your own personal journal, or you can use these as discussion questions either in a group setting. So if you're doing this with a handful of other wives, or you can use them as discussion questions between you and your spouse to answer.

[Aaron] Or all of the above.

[Jennifer] Or all of the above if you wanna, that'd be awesome.

[Aaron] So, I'm going to go through the Husband After God and pull some of the points. It's formatted exactly the same way, but the content is complementary. It's different content focused on the husband with some different topics, but some of the topics are similar, but with different content, if that makes sense.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] So you could totally do this with your spouse and you would have different questions that you can go back and forth on. You would have different stories and different points to pull from, even different scriptures, but the themes might be the same in some areas, so I'm gonna read some of the topics. Marriage By Design. Lead By Example. Your Wife is a Gift. Sacrificial Love. Set Yourself Apart. Be Brave. The Good Fight. Pride. Everyone loves that chapter, I think. Forgiveness. Words Matter. Prayer For Your Wife. Avoiding God. Walk in Victory. And then the last one is The Husband Revolution, which is a fun one. It's proclaiming that mission that we have as husbands and that ministry we have. But yeah, there's a point in the beginning, a couple, a page and a half or two pages, and then there's a prayer for that day, specific to that topic. There's scripture to read. There's questions for you to answer. There's a status update, like this one says, "I will strive to reflect the image "and character of God in my marriage." That's status update, so it's like a statement.

Statement, yeah.

I'm going to do this and you're telling all your social media friends that you're gonna do it, and then it also let's people know, wait what is he doing? It says #HusbandAfterGod, what is that?

[Jennifer] Yeah, what is that?

[Aaron] Yeah, there's a challenge on every chapter. This one says share and discuss with your wife what you are learning about the purpose of marriage. So boom, right there, there's an intimate moment that I get to have with my wife where I share with what I'm learning, what God's teaching me about the purpose of marriage. 'Cause imagine if I sat down, or you sit down, husband, with your wife, and you say, oh, you know, I'm learning that God's purpose for our marriage is that I would love you like Christ loves the church. She's gonna be like, what, that's amazing!

[Jennifer] And yeah, imagine what that would do to a wife's heart? I know personally, it just makes me feel like, oh my goodness, he cares about me, he loves me, he wants to do this with me and with God, and I don't know, I just love that.

[Aaron] I wanna read another challenge. This one's from, what chapter is this? This is from day 21, Prayer For Your Wife, and the challenge is this. Spend time praying for your wife. Share with God why you are thankful for her. Lift up any needs she may have. Pray for her character to reflect Christ, and petition God to protect her. So, the challenge is go find some quiet time and just pray for your wife.

[Jennifer] Which we all need those reminders. Every single one of us.

[Aaron] So that's the Husband After God devotional. And the topics in each one of them are focused on the wife's role, scriptures that are aligned with that, and then the husband's role and scriptures that are aligned with that, but at the end of the day, what they're doing is they strengthen the marriage overall, making the ministry of that marriage more powerful, and more focused on what God wants for it.

[Jennifer] And there's 30 days or 30 topics, so you could easily do this in a month's time.

[Aaron] Yeah, well that would be the challenge, is do it every day for a month, for 30 days.

[Jennifer] Yep, so I just, real quick, wanna jump into a couple reviews that people have left for these specific devotionals, just so that you guys get an idea of the kind of impact that it's making from other people, and other people's lives. So Aaron, you wanna read the first one?

[Aaron] Yeah, this one's from Diamond S. and it says this, "Life changing! "This book is truly a Godsend. "My marriage is better using these books. "My husband and I read them daily and it's helping us "to grow in our marriage and closer to God. "We were just recently baptized December 31st, 2018," which is incredible,

[Jennifer] Wow, recently!

[Aaron] Yeah, "and this has been an awesome read "for us to continue to have God "at the center of our marriage. "Daily this book hits home and I'm learning more "about being a godly wife. "Thank you so much for this book "and I truly hope all Christian couples read these."

[Jennifer] Awesome.

[Aaron] Which, I was like, yay, makes me feel good.

[Jennifer] Okay, I'm gonna read the next one. It's from Crystal W., "Simply amazing. "I bought both bundles, Husband and Wife After God, "and 31 Prayers For Your Husband and Wife, "and my husband and I are doing both together. "Oh my goodness, it is really good! "Very well written, and when I say these will open up your eyes, I'm not kidding. "And get your steel-toed boots on, "these two books have helped us start off "in a place where God can show up and take over. "We have only been doing these less than two weeks, "and God shows up every day, "relating these books to our daily lives. "God speaks through people and uses people "to minister to others, and, boy, has He here. "If you want God to show up and you really want to love God "through your spouse, and how to do it, "these books, right here is where you wanna start."

[Aaron] That one's a good one. I like that one, she said "put on your steel-toed boots."

[Jennifer] I know, it's great.

[Aaron] Alright, so this last one is from William M. "Just what our marriage needed, awesome! "It brought us closer to God while also enhancing "our individual walk with God, opened our eyes to the things "we were and weren't doing and being accountable. "Very powerful devotionals. "Highly recommended. A++++."

[Jennifer] Awh, some people are just so kind, and it always encourages us and we feel like, awesome. We have given couples a catalyst to get into God's word together and to do something that's impacting their relationship, and I'm just praising God.

[Aaron] Yeah, and our goal all along, has not been to replace the Bible. Our purpose of these books was to point people to the Bible.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] Always pointing back to the Bible, always pointing back to God.

[Jennifer] Awesome, okay, so I wanna move into this next, sort of, sessions.

[Aaron] These are kinda like questions, Q&As.

[Jennifer] Yeah, Q&As on...

[Aaron] Oh no, they're FAQs, that's what it is.

[Jennifer] Okay, on the topic. So, can these be read together at the same time or not?

[Aaron] Both! We recommend them being done together. They could be read separately, or they could be read together, taking turns, but our sentiment is, hey, do them, and then come together and discuss the chapter for the day, discuss the thought for the day, how you answered the questions, do the prayers together, pray-

[Jennifer] Sometimes they pray the prayers out loud, too.

[Aaron] Yeah, so I would say both. Like we said earlier, there's some marriages where the husband or the wife are not there, they're not doing it. So the other spouse is just doing it on their own.

[Jennifer] And the great thing about these devotionals is you can utilize them more than just once, go back through it again, you know? It's really good content, so it's not wasted, just keep going through it again.

[Aaron] Yeah, they're good reminders of what the Word says about who we are and what God's called for us. The next question is can they be used to lead a small group?

[Jennifer] And the answer for that is, yes. So, some tips for this. If you're gonna do, host small group, let's say that you have five other wives who wanna go through Wife After God together, we would suggest everyone gets a copy, just so that they can go through it on their own throughout the week, and then meet up, once a week for a month or two, depending on how you want to do it, and just use the journal questions, in the back of each day as the discussion questions to talk about.

[Aaron] Yeah, and you might be able to break up the chapters, so like the first four chapters on week one, and the next four chapters or five chapters on week two.

[Jennifer] Yeah, and you don't have to use the journal questions, You can just simply say, okay, what have you been learning? What stood out to you? That kind of thing.

[Aaron] Ideally, they would, whoever has these devotionals, the people listening, if they have these devotionals or if they're going to get them, when they're done going through them, they should invite married couples over to their house, and start a little marriage Bible study with those couples.

[Jennifer] That would be awesome. And here's the other tip, if you guys were to do this soon, there's even enough time, by the time you finish that small group, Marriage After God will be out.

The new book, yeah.

The new book, and then you could do that same group study

With that book.

With book.

[Aaron] Yeah, 'cause that book is significantly different than these devotionals.

[Jennifer] Okay, so I want to give one more tip and this is just a fun thing to do with your group, if you're gonna do a group. I did a small group, which actually led me to writing this devotional. I did it for three months with a handful of wives from my church, we were all young wives, kind of in the same season of life, and--

[Aaron] No one had kids yet, back then.

[Jennifer] No one had kids yet. One friend had one young, young baby. So, anyways, we got together weekly, once a week, for three months, and the second to the last, or maybe the third to the last one, we made handmade invitations for our husbands.

[Aaron] Oh, this is definitely a good idea.

[Jennifer] We planned and prepared a dinner that we were gonna host for our husbands on that last evening and talk about the discussion questions and what we learning on that night with everyone. And so we thought it was gonna be fancy, we thought we wanted to dress up, we thought we all wanted to cook together. So we made these handmade invitations and then a couple weeks later, we all got together, we got there early, set the table, got flowers, made the dinner, and all the husbands showed up, dressed super nice, we were just at a friend's house.

[Aaron] That, I remember this. That was a lot of fun and I felt really honored.

[Jennifer] Everybody just, everybody felt honored. Everybody had smiles on their faces and what's really cool about that night is the guys actually, because they knew it was coming, they all talked and prepared on how they were gonna encourage us women and share how they've seen us change over that time we'd been meeting together. So then at the dinner table, everyone went around and shared. It was incredible, it was so awesome.

[Aaron] It was really powerful, and very enjoyable, and the food, I can't remember what it was, but I remember it was really good.

[Jennifer] Yeah, so you could do something fun like that together.

[Aaron] So last question is, why should they read these devotionals now, as a primer for the Marriage After God book coming out in June?

[Jennifer] So, first thing you guys should know is, we did write these devotionals a couple years ago, and when we get people who have been through them asking us what's next, we want to give you something. We've been wanting to give you something since they first came out.

[Aaron] We've had four kids since then, so...

[Jennifer] Yeah, we've been a little busy, but this was a catalyst, you guys asking and desiring this has been a catalyst for why we wrote Marriage After God. So I feel like these devotionals are the brief version.

[Aaron] I think they're the first stepping stone.

[Jennifer] It's like a stepping stone, because then, I feel like your hearts will be ready.

More unified.

And more unified for jumping into the message that is in the book, Marriage After God.

[Aaron] Yeah, the Marriage After God book. You're going to be hearing a lot about this, so we're starting to talk about it more because as it gets closer to launching, we want you all to know what it's about, and why we wrote these books. And we wrote Marriage After God as a culmination of everything that God's been teaching us over the years about the ministry that God has for our marriages. And so these devotionals are step one in that.

[Jennifer] Yeah, they'll get you thinking about the purpose of your marriage in light of God's Word.

[Aaron] Yep, and by the time the book comes out, you'll be ready to take that next step into what God has for your marriage and where He wants to take it. 'Cause that was the whole purpose of writing the book was, we want marriages all over the world who claim the name of Christ, who love God, to recognize the power in the ministry that they have in Christ as a marriage, as one. And so we're super excited about that.

[Jennifer] Yeah, I think another thing is, is if you do these devotionals together, it will start to build that habit of spending time together and reading together and asking each other some deep questions. So that when the Marriage After God book comes out, that habit will already be there and you'll want to replace the devotionals with the book. So I think that it's just a natural step.

[Aaron] Yeah, and I wanna go, I got really excited about something. I wanna go right back to the small group subject again. I love that idea, and I actually wanna challenge our listeners. We weren't planning on doing this, but I want to challenge our listeners to get a copy of our devotionals, the Husband and Wife After God devotionals. Go through them, and at the end of the 30 days, during the 30 days, be praying and asking God, what other couples are in your life that He wants you to invite to a study at your house, a Marriage After God study? And then invite them to get the books. It could be two couples, it could be one couple, it could be five couples. I wouldn't do more than maybe six couples, that's a lot of people. Do multiple studies, maybe, but I just wanna challenge you to be praying through the books as you do them, and asking God who it is. You might be thinking right now, oh my gosh, I have this friend, these friends, they would love to do this with us, and start a Bible study and walk through these studies, these books together and see what God has for all your marriages. What we're trying to start here is a movement of marriages after God, of marriages who desire to grow the kingdom of God, to see Him move through their marriages, and that we would use our marriages for ministry for Him. That's why we started the podcast. That's why we started our blogs. All of this goes back to that, that we're moving the kingdom forward with God, and that we see our marriages as the ministries He's given us and the tools that He's given us to serve Him.

[Jennifer] Mmm, that's good.

[Aaron] So would you agree with that challenge?

[Jennifer] I agree, I like that challenge, and just to simplify it and make it easy for them to understand. Just tell these people it'll be four or six weekS, whatever you want the timing to be on it, which is not a long time to meet together.

It's not at all.

[Jennifer] It's once a week, for four weeks, or once a week for six weeks.

[Aaron] Try the four weeks, I think the four week one, just one month to see if it works, see if you're like wow, this is awesome. And but first, I would say you go through the devotionals as a couple first. And during that 30 days, you pray, and fast if need to, and you ask the Lord. Say, Lord, reveal to us, who is it? And I know the Lord will. The moment we ask God, like God use me, He's like okay, He wants to use us.

[Jennifer] Marriages need it, you guys, that's why we're doing this, because marriages need the support, the encouragement of other believers, they need to know why God has them together.

[Aaron] The reminder of not just happily ever after, but it's that we're chasing after God together, that we're building His kingdom together, that we have a mission in this world and our marriage is the tool to accomplish the mission. Yeah, and going back to the message of the Marriage After God book, that's what the whole book's about, what is the mission God has for us?

[Jennifer] And if you guys have already been through these devotionals, and this is old news to you, because you've already been through these, I want you to go dust them off, go get them, and go do exactly what Aaron is challenging you to do right now and consider-

[Aaron] Let's start our movement.

[Jennifer] Yeah, consider who you can invite over to go through them with you.

[Aaron] Ooh, how can they let us know if they're doing it? 'Cause actually I would love to know. I'd love to see the groups--

Groups, a group photo! We wanna see a group photo-


[Jennifer] @MarriageAfterGod.

[Aaron] Yeah, tag @MarriageAfterGod and #MarriageAfterGod, and we will look 'em and actually I think we'll repost them.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] Not all of them, but we'll repost a lot of them. So if you do this, please let us know. We'd love to be praying for you, being part of it, and we are praying for you, but if you're going to be doing a group, we want to pray for your group, we want to pray for your Bible study. I'm getting all excited, okay.

[Jennifer] Okay, so last note before we go into the prayer for this episode, and that is, get ready, because we have 16 weeks ahead of us of a book series for Marriage After God that we're going to be diving into starting next week with the introduction.

[Aaron] That's true, and you know what's awesome? We forgot to mention this, this is episode 52. This is, we've been doing this for one year.



[Jennifer] Thank you guys for following along, and listening, this is awesome.

[Aaron] Yeah, so for the next 16 episodes, we're going to be talking about content from the book.

[Jennifer] And it's actually 17, 'cause it's 16 chapters, plus the introduction, so 17 weeks.

[Aaron] So you're going to be learning a lot about the message of the Marriage After God book, which is essentially of the Marriage After God podcast, and how our hearts is to start a movement in Christian marriages around the world. And we'd love for you to be a part of that, and to take ownership in that, and know that God's gonna do something amazing. And we're excited to see what that is. So before we close, as always, we've dedicated to pray for you and your marriage and for what God's doing, and so Jennifer would you like to pray for us?

[Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for creating marriage. Thank you for considering our counterpart and complement. Thank you that we do not have to endure this life alone. Not only do we get to live with the presence of Your Holy Spirit and our spouse, but we also get to benefit from living in community with other believers. May we walk together in unity as You have always intended us to. Please continue to draw us closer to Yourself and closer to each other. Continue to transform our hearts and our minds so that our character reflects Your character. Help us to intentionally invest in marriage by learning how to fulfill our roles as husbands and wives. Thank you for revealing to us why you created marriage and the purpose it has in this world. May this purpose motivate us to walk righteously every day. Remind us daily that our marriage is a symbol to this hurting world of your powerful and unconditional love. We pray that as Christian husbands and wives, we aim to minister to one another in our marriages by being obedient to all that You have commanded through Your Word. May we be prayer warriors who do not neglect to pray for one another. We pray that as we make ourselves known to You and to each other, that we experience extraordinary intimacy. We pray for Your will to be done in our marriages and through our marriages and may You be glorified. In Jesus' name, Amen.

[Aaron] Amen, thank you Lord. We're excited to see pictures. We're excited to see what God's gonna be doing in your marriage through these devotionals, through the Bible study that you're gonna start, I'm making it a definitive.

[Jennifer] And tag @MarriageAfterGod so we can see and cheer you along!

[Aaron] Yeah, and just start praying and asking God how He wasn't to use you and your spouse. That's our heart, that's our goal, that's why we do this, is that you would recognize the place that you have in the body of Christ, and that it's a significant one. Doesn't matter who you are, doesn't matter where you live, God's got a plan for you, He's got a purpose for your marriage, for your life individually, and you are a part of the body of Christ. And God's got work for us to do,

[Jennifer] Let's do it.

[Aaron] as his children. Yeah, so let's do it and we love you guys. We thank you for joining us on our 52nd episode, one year in, here's to another year, and we'll see you next week! Did you enjoy today's show? Find many more encouraging stories and resources at and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Jan 30, 2019
My Personal Struggle With Pornography and Lust as a Wife

We are sexual beings. God created us with a beautiful way of expressing deep love in marriage through the physical action of being one with our spouse, and it is the way he designed us, humans, to recreate, to multiply his image. Just like any wonderful and necessary part of God’s design and purpose, the enemy has found a way to destroy it.

The last episode we talked about Aaron's struggle with pornography and how it affected our marriage. Today we thought we would share my struggle and pull into the light the truth that pornography is not just a guy problem.

Dear Lord,

We pray first and foremost that husbands and wives would give you their hearts, that they would obey all that you command in your word and that they would love you with all of their hearts. We pray that if any of them are addicted or struggling with pornography that they would choose to stop today. Holy Spirit, please remind us daily of Your desire for us to live holy and pure lives. We pray we would not live in hiding, but rather, may we be transparent with others, confessing our sin and repenting of it, so that it will not have a stronghold in our lives. Give us stamina to pray for protection against the enemy and against our flesh. Remind us every day to pray for ourselves, for our spouses, for our children, and for our children's future spouses. May we be men and women who choose to walk faithfully with You.

In Jesus’ name, amen!

Support this podcast by grabbing one of our marriage books.

[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God.

[Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. And today, we're gonna talk about my personal struggle with pornography and lust as a wife.

[Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after.

[Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife.

[Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution.

[Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade.

[Aaron] And so far, we have four young children.

[Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media.

[Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith everyday.

[Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life--

[Aaron] Love--

[Jennifer] And power--

[Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God--

[Jennifer] Together.

[Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together.

[Jennifer] This is Marriage After God.

[Aaron] Hey, thanks for joining us on another podcast episode. Last week's episode was super, super powerful and impactful. We've had tons of messages from people just sharing how my story of addiction to pornography and how God freed me from it has blessed them and has brought them freedom. And again, it's not me. It's God working through my testimony. And in reality, it's his testimony 'cause of what he did in my life. But we thank you for joining us on this week's episode which is also gonna be very vulnerable and very sensitive to us, but we pray that it has an impact in your life. And if you've been enjoying our podcast and you haven't done so yet, we'd love to invite you to leave us a review, a star review, a star rating, and a text review. Those help other people find our podcast and we love reading 'em. They're really encouraging.

[Jennifer] Also, we just wanted to invite you guys to take a minute to check out That's a great way that you can help support our podcast, the Marriage After God podcast, by shopping through our store. And just to highlight one specific book, The Unveiled Wife, we're gonna be sharing on this sensitive topic today about my personal struggle with pornography and lust as a wife. And I share even more detail in The Unveiled Wife. So if you are on the store and you want to check that book out. You know, if this episode stirs anything in your heart and you just feel like you need an additional resource, check out The Unveiled Wife.

[Aaron] Awesome. So here's the icebreaker question for this week. Who is the best cook in our marriage?

[Jennifer] Before I answer that, I feel like I'm glad this question was a little bit light hearted because we're going into some sensitive stuff. So at least we can get all the laugh and everything out of the way.

[Aaron] We'll laugh a little bit, I think.

I'm nervous.

We'll be careful. Yes, it is a nerve racking topic.

[Jennifer] Okay, who's the best cook? I am.

[Aaron] Yeah, okay.

[Jennifer] You are?

[Aaron] We both are. I would say I think we have strengths in different areas of cooking.

[Jennifer] I was gonna say you are.

[Aaron] You are an incredible baker. Your biscuits are amazing. And I love smoking stuff in my Traeger.

[Jennifer] You're great at it.

[Aaron] Yeah, so I think we're good. We didn't use to be good at it. We have some funny stories.

[Jennifer] We were terrible at cooking.

[Aaron] Remember that one time you made spaghetti and you forgot to boil the noodles?

[Jennifer] Yeah, so it was baked ziti.

[Aaron] Oh yeah, baked ziti.

[Jennifer] And it's one of those dishes where you kind of like layer and then bake. And so I just threw everything together and started baking away, and we had friends coming over.

[Aaron] We pull it out of the oven.

[Jennifer] It was like nine o'clock at night and I'm like you guys, it's still not done. I don't know.

[Aaron] We try eating it. It's like crunchy. We had to pull all the noodles out and boil 'em--

[Jennifer] Yup, and then mix everything back together.

[Aaron] But you have totally redeemed yourself because the baked ziti you brought to church this last Sunday was incredible.

[Jennifer] Thanks.

[Aaron] So. Yeah, I would say we're both really good cooks.

[Jennifer] I appreciate your love of cooking because it helps me out on times that I'm not interested or can't get to it. So I think we make a good team in the kitchen.

[Aaron] Yeah, cool. That was a good question. Alright. So I'm gonna read a quote. We try and do a quote every week. And this is a quote from my own devotional which you can get at It's called Husband After God. It's a 30 day devotional for husbands. And of course, we have the wife companion devotional called Wife After God as well but this is a quote from my book. And it says this on page 65. What you bring into your heart, you bring into your home. It's a short quote but I think it's a powerful statement that what's in our hearts, whether people see it, whether it's visible, whether our spouse knows about it, it is brought into our home and one way or another, it's gonna come out. It's gonna come out in the way we treat our spouse and in the way we treat our children. And it may even become visible, like you know with pornography, if it's something I'm searching on my computer, on my phone, or some roundabout way, my children, my wife, someone in my home's gonna stumble upon it. It's gonna affect the way I think, the way I act, and not just me, but us. So just a good reminder and especially going into the topic we're going to talk about. What we bring into our heart, we bring into our home and we have a responsibility to protect what we are viewing, listening to, consuming as Christians.

[Jennifer] Yeah, I was gonna ask you to explain really quickly what it means to bring something into your heart. Like is it just, you know, an overall what you expose yourself to? Or do you actually have to like receive it? Like what does that look like?

[Aaron] To be honest--

[Jennifer] 'Cause you know people are gonna try and justify that line of like what, well, I didn't bring that in. Just because I did that thing doesn't mean I, you know, brought it into my heart.

[Aaron] No, that's a good point. I think just usually it's gonna come from things that we enjoy. I enjoy movies, right? And I used to be able to justify well, there was only that one little scene but the rest of the movie was okay. And what I'm doing is I'm allowing something into my heart through my eyes, through something I'm entertaining and enjoying. And those things, they come in. And unless we deal with them. The Bible tells us to take every thought captive. Unless we deal with the things that we're allowing into our heart. I may listen to certain music, right? And they just the kinds of salacious lyrics and the kinds of things that I'm listening to over, and over, and over again. The Bible calls that meditation. And that's how we bring the scripture into our hearts is be meditating on it, regurgitating it, going over, and over, and over again, repeating it, memorizing it. So if we're doing that with other things, that's how things get into our heart. That's how we absorb things.

[Jennifer] And the bottom line is we're choosing it.

[Aaron] We're choosing it, yeah. Like I wouldn't say walking down the street and then just something happens. I don't have to let that into my heart. Now, if I'm dwelling on something and I see something, or someone, or a poster, or something on a TV screen in a shop or whatever, I could let it in because I want it. So we have to be careful what things we allow into our hearts 'cause as the Bible says, out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks. And so there's things that we could be allowing in and we may not think directly it's affecting those in our home, but in some way or another, it is or will.

[Jennifer] Come out.

[Aaron] Come out, yeah.

[Jennifer] Good. Okay, so just to be real honest. I think I mentioned in the last episode that I was nervous about it and I didn't really want to do the episode but I knew it was important. And even more so, I really don't want to do this episode but I know it's important.

[Aaron] Yeah, last episode, we focused a lot on my walk and how I dealt with pornography and how it affected us. But not a lot of people know your side of the story. Not just your perspective on my sin but your own walk with it.

[Jennifer] Yeah. And so naturally, when we're even trying to discuss the title for this episode, it was like I don't want my name attached. I don't want the word wife in there.

[Aaron] It was 15 minutes of us. I'm like babe, how are people gonna figure this out? They need to know. She's like I don't want it to be put in there, but it's about you.

[Jennifer] It's so hard to talk about our past struggles, and sins, and things that just make you feel so ugly and messy. And I know that God was redeemed me and that I no longer am that person. You know, that's an old self and I don't choose to walk in that way anymore which, you know, God gets that glory for sure, but it still is uncomfortable to talk about. But the reason that I'm willing, the reason that Aaron and I wanted to share this episode with you today is because we know that there are a lot of women who struggle with pornography, lust, and you know--

[Aaron] Sexual sins of this nature, yeah.

[Jennifer] Sexual sins. And it's not being talked about a lot. I think it's starting to be. I think that people are starting to recognize that you know, it's not just a man's issue, that it's not just a husband's issue or even a young man's issue. I think that there are. I mean, there are a lot of people, a lot of women who do struggle with it.

[Aaron] Naturally, our world is becoming more and more desensitized. We're oversexualized. Every single commercial, every single movie. You can't watch a PG-13 movie without some sort of sexual reference or partial nudity. The oversexualization of everything in our society is making it more and more common.

[Jennifer] And so accepting.

[Aaron] Well, that's what I'm saying. It's becoming more accepting. And so you have boys and men who expect a certain thing and then you have women who are like well, that's what everyone's expecting now. So there's this nasty cycle of expectation, and desensitization, and oversexualization. As believers, we actually can combat this darkness, right?

[Jennifer] Yeah. I think a reason that a lot of people don't say anything or say a lot about women struggling with pornography use is just because it's embarrassing or maybe they feel like they can actually hide it and get away with it because everyone's so focused on it being a man's issue. And so we wanted to bring this to light and kind of just drag this topic out into the open and say hey, if there is a problem, we need to be talking about it. And so hopefully this is that stepping into freedom for anyone who is struggling with it today.

[Aaron] Yeah, our prayer before this was that God would open the eyes and hearts of believers who might be walking in this, men and women. And you said that people might not talk about it because of fear or embarrassment. But it's also possible, and we've seen evidence of this, of people just thinking that there's nothing wrong with it.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] And so they're like why would I talk about it? There's nothing wrong with it. We do this in our marriage. I enjoy this in this way and we're gonna talk about some of the definitions of pornography so we can shine that light on it completely, but that's the goal is that as believers, we would be white as snow. We would be a pure bride for our king. And so I appreciate you, Jennifer, for being so fearless. I know there's a little bit of fear in this. But for sharing your testimony in this area.

[Jennifer] Well, I feel like we are, like human nature, we are sexual beings. God created us with this beautiful way of expressing our deep love in marriage for one another in this way through the physical action of being one.

[Aaron] Yeah.

[Jennifer] Right? And it's his way, it's the way that he designed us to recreate and to multiply his image through childbearing and expressing that love. But just like any wonderful and necessary part of God's design and purpose, the enemy has found a way to destroy it.

[Aaron] He's only here to seek out whom he may devour to kill, steal, and destroy. He takes the things that God's created and he manipulates them, mutates them, destroys them, ruins them, perverts them. And so that beautiful thing that God created, you know, sex, and the confines that he created it to exist in, marriage, he's constantly attacking and saying actually no, sex is better outside of marriage. Actually, sex is better when there's multiple partners. Sex is better when you do it this way instead of God's way. And he's done that by tempting believers and everyone in many different ways. But we get to look at the word of God and the way he's invented it and created it and why it's so beautiful. And we get to walk that way.

[Jennifer] Okay, so the last episode, you kind of started with just your journey and exposure to pornography so I thought I'd kind of start there with mine. So I was about 10 or 11 when I saw a shredded up piece of a magazine that looked like it had been run over by cars and things laying in a gutter.

[Aaron] Weird. That's like how my story started.

[Jennifer] I know. I thought about what when you shared it. So I didn't pick that up though.

[Aaron] 'Cause it was in the gutter.

[Jennifer] Not 'cause it was in a gutter, because it freaked me out but the image was seared into my heart like instantly. It was like okay. And then I thought about it and dwelt on it and that was my first exposure to it. And shortly after that, just some exposure through finding magazines and fantasy books at family member's houses.

[Aaron] So when I think about you say it seared into your heart almost immediately.

[Jennifer] In my mind. Like I could see it in my mind.

[Aaron] What I realize is the way God created us with all of our hormones and the chemicals in our body, and especially at such a young age. Or think of Song of Solomon. It says don't open up love before it's time. And there's a physical reason, a physical response to those sexual hormones. You saw that image and they evoked the correct kind of hormones in you but at the wrong time, and in the wrong way, and that's why it was like so instant in your flesh because your body was like that was something that I've never seen before. That was something I don't know what to do with. And yet, your body was functioning the way it was supposed to. Just in the wrong time, and in the wrong way, and in the wrong environment.

[Jennifer] Yeah. And I don't feel like I was taught about sexual purity or even my body really. I wasn't taught to guard or protect my eyes. I didn't know what pornography was. And so in that moment, I didn't know what to do with it so I just kept to myself. I didn't know if I should tell someone. I didn't know how to combat those thoughts that I got from that point, you know, onward. I didn't know how to deal with it. I don't remember my parents really talking to me about sex, except I was told not to do it.

[Aaron] Yeah, sex is sin.

[Jennifer] Yeah.

[Aaron] Until you're married. And then it's not sin anymore.

[Jennifer] They didn't even use the word sin. I just remember being told like not to do it. But no one ever explained why. I don't remember there being a strong why. You know that God created it but there was no affirmation that it is a good thing once you're married.

[Aaron] Or that your body is something special that needs to be protected and kept for someone. Not many people, but someone.

[Jennifer] And now that I'm thinking about it, even the idea of marriage wasn't really talked about in light of an affirming way. It wasn't like, you know. When I think about my kids, they get really excited to be married one day.

[Aaron] I know, poor Olive.

[Jennifer] Olive, we were driving in the car and she goes, "Mom, I just want to be a mommy right now." Like she doesn't want to wait at all and I get the opportunity and the privilege to affirm that in her and say Olive, you will be married one day. Just wait for it in God's timing. And I don't really remember having a positive perspective of marriage from a young age and I've shared this before, but my parents were divorced when I was really young, around four years old. And so even seeing the example wasn't really present from an early age. Yeah, I think that really impacted me as a young pers