Storytelling Animals

By Dayton Martindale

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Description

Storytelling Animals is a green new podcast where we use books to help make sense of the ecological crisis – and think about what comes next. For most episodes, host Dayton Martindale will interview authors about their new or recent fiction and nonfiction, and talk about how we might build better relations with each other and our fellow creatures. Sometimes, he'll review books or talk with academics and activists, too.

Patreon subscribers at all tiers get early access to locked episodes, and Patreon subscribers above $7/month can also join a subscribers-only book club hosted by Dayton to dig deeper into these ideas and discuss how they might inform political action.



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Episode Date
Happy Birthday, Virginia Woolf: Animals, Nature, and Modernist Fiction with Bonnie Kime Scott
47:20

January 25, 2023, is acclaimed writer Virginia Woolf's 141st birthday! To celebrate, I invited scholar of modernist literature Bonnie Kime Scott to talk about how animals and nature show up in Woolf's work, and how novels can represent other consciousnesses.


To read Woolf's "The Death of a Moth": https://www.sanjuan.edu/cms/lib8/CA01902727/Centricity/Domain/3981/Death%20of%20A%20Moth-Virginia%20Woolf%20copy.pdf

For Kime's book: https://www.upress.virginia.edu/title/4499/

For more on Kime: https://kimescott.sdsu.edu/publications.html


Support this podcast with a monthly donation on Patreon: https://patreon.com/storytellingpod

This podcast is a proud member of the iRoar network of pro-animal podcasts: https://iroarpod.com/

Subscribe to the free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Learn more about our upcoming book club schedule; next up is Matt Bell's novel Appleseed on February 28: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/

Follow this podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind



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Jan 25, 2023
Justice for Animals: Martha C. Nussbaum on Law, Ethics, and Our Collective Responsibility
54:18

Martha C. Nussbaum is a professor of law and ethics at the University of Chicago, and the author most recently of Justice for Animals: Our Collective Responsibility. On this episode we discuss animal capabilities, the ethics of killing, and how the law can better protect other species.


For more on the book: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Justice-for-Animals/Martha-C-Nussbaum/9781982102500

Support this podcast with a monthly donation on Patreon--help reach 30 supporters by episode 40! https://patreon.com/storytellingpod

This podcast is a member of the iRoar network of pro-animal podcasts: https://iroarpod.com/

Subscribe to the free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Learn more about our upcoming book club schedule; next up is An Immense World: How Animals Senses Reveal the Hidden Realms Around Us by Ed Yong on January 17, followed by Matt Bell's novel Appleseed on February 28: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/

Follow this podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395



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Jan 03, 2023
The 2022 Storytelling Animals Book Awards
49:07

I read 78 books this year, the most in my adult life, and I want to share some of my favorites, especially some that I didn't get a chance to cover on the podcast! I pick my favorites in the following categories: best overall; 2022 release (fiction); 2022 release (nonfiction); older release (nonfiction); older release (novel); older release (short stories). Plus I list some honorable mentions and share some recommendations from my Patreon subscribers.


Support this podcast with a monthly donation on Patreon--help reach 30 supporters by episode 40! https://patreon.com/storytellingpod

This podcast is a member of the iRoar network of pro-animal podcasts: https://iroarpod.com/

Subscribe to the free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Learn more about our upcoming book club schedule; next up is An Immense World: How Animals Senses Reveal the Hidden Realms Around Us by Ed Yong on January 17, followed by Matt Bell's novel Appleseed on February 28: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/

Follow this podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395



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Dec 20, 2022
As Gods: Matthew Cobb on the Perils and Promise of CRISPR
1:38:55

With CRISPR technology, it is easier than ever for geneticists to alter human DNA, make deadlier pathogens, render mosquitoes infertile, and make other dramatic interventions into organisms and ecosystems. But the science and the ethics of all this is far from straightforward. Biologist Matthew Cobb, author of As Gods: A Moral History of the Genetic Age, guides us through decades of genetic engineering, the strengths and weaknesses of CRISPR technology, and why he doesn't think we should bring back the wooly mammoth.


For more on the book: https://www.basicbooks.com/titles/matthew-cobb/as-gods/9781541602854/

Support this podcast with a monthly donation on Patreon--help reach 30 supporters by episode 40! https://patreon.com/storytellingpod

This podcast is a member of the iRoar network of pro-animal podcasts: https://iroarpod.com/

Subscribe to the free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Learn more about our upcoming book club schedule; next up is An Immense World: How Animals Senses Reveal the Hidden Realms Around Us by Ed Yong on January 17: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/

Follow this podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395



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Dec 07, 2022
From Duck Vaginas to the Human Egg, an Anatomical Voyage with Rachel E. Gross
51:07

Rachel E. Gross is the author of Vagina Obscura: An Anatomical Voyage, depicting how a new generation of (mostly) women scientists are changing how we understand female (and other) bodies. For more on the book: https://wwnorton.com/books/vagina-obscura


Support this podcast with a monthly donation on Patreon--help reach 30 supporters by episode 40! https://patreon.com/storytellingpod

This podcast is a member of the iRoar network of pro-animal podcasts: https://iroarpod.com/

Subscribe to the free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Learn more about our upcoming book club schedule; next up is Salvage the Bones by Jesmyn Ward on November 29: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/

Follow this podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395



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Nov 08, 2022
The Wonderful, Tragic Worlds of Hawai’i's Endangered Snails, with Thom van Dooren
1:00:22

Support this podcast with a monthly donation on Patreon--help reach 30 supporters by episode 40! https://patreon.com/storytellingpod


This week's guest is Thom van Dooren, author of A World in a Shell: Snail Stories for a Time of Extinction. We talk about the beauty, wonder, and mystery of snails, and how their worlds are threatened. For more on the book: https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262047029/a-world-in-a-shell/


Subscribe to the free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Learn more about our upcoming book club schedule; next up is White Skin, Black Fuel: On the Danger of Fossil Fascism by Andreas Malm and the Zetkin Collective on October 25: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/

Follow this podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395

Learn more about the iRoar network of pro-animal podcasts, of which this podcast is a member: https://iroarpod.com/



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Oct 19, 2022
Dan Chodorkoff on Utopia, Democracy, and Working with Murray Bookchin
1:02:21

Support this podcast with a monthly donation on Patreon--help reach 30 supporters by episode 40! https://patreon.com/storytellingpod


This week's guest is Dan Chodorkoff, cofounder of the Institute for Social Ecology and author of the new novel, Sugaring Down. We talk about the Vermont commune lives of his novel's protagonists, as well as his own experience in the 1960s and his work on social ecology with prolific writer and thinker Murray Bookchin.


For more on the book: https://www.fomitepress.com/sugaring-down.html

For more on the Institute: https://social-ecology.org/wp/

Some of my own writing on social ecology: https://harbinger-journal.com/issue-1/the-social-ecological-case-for-animal-liberation/


Subscribe to the free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Learn more about our upcoming book club schedule; next up is White Skin, Black Fuel: On the Danger of Fossil Fascism by Andreas Malm and the Zetkin Collective on October 25: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/

Follow this podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395

Learn more about the iRoar podcast network: https://iroarpod.com/



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Oct 12, 2022
Talia Lakshmi Kolluri on Writing the Animal Voice
44:53

Support this podcast with a monthly donation on Patreon--help reach 30 supporters by episode 40: https://patreon.com/storytellingpod


Today's guest is fiction writer Talia Lakshmi Kolluri, author of the new collection What We Fed to the Manticore. In our interview we discuss animal senses, meaning and purpose, as well as the research she did to learn to see the world through nonhuman eyes. Toward the end she reads an excerpt of one of her stories, the first time we have done a reading on this podcast but hopefully not the last! Interview starts at 4:18.


Learn more about her book here: https://tinhouse.com/book/what-we-fed-to-the-manticore/

Read about evidence for chimpanzee spirituality here: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/03/chimpanzee-spirituality/475731/

Listen to my two prior episodes about the animal voices in fiction:

1) https://play.acast.com/s/storytelling-animals/tc-boyle-talk-to-me-amitav-ghosh-nutmegs-curse-chimpanzee

2) https://play.acast.com/s/storytelling-animals/laura-jean-mckay-the-animals-in-that-country



Subscribe to the free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Learn more about our upcoming book club schedule; next up is White Skin, Black Fuel: On the Danger of Fossil Fascism by Andreas Malm and the Zetkin Collective on October 25: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/

Follow this podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395

Learn more about the iRoar podcast network: https://iroarpod.com/



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Oct 05, 2022
On Pakistan, Permitting Reform, and Plastic Bags
45:53

On today's episode I explore three topics from recent climate and environmental headlines: the devastating flooding in Pakistan, debates over permitting reform, and how single-use plastic bags compare to reusable ones. Below are some relevant links.


On Pakistan:

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2022-09-03/pakistan-floods-sindh-balochistan-climate-change-reparations

https://theconversation.com/pakistan-floods-what-role-did-climate-change-play-189833

https://www.climateandcommunity.org/debt-justice-for-climate-reparations


On permitting reform:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/93a39e/why-doesnt-america-build-things

https://medium.com/@shaygabriel/this-is-why-we-need-permitting-reform-8a1890eb24e9


On grocery bags:

https://www2.mst.dk/udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-73-4.pdf (key tables+footnote on pages 17-18)

https://medium.com/@parkpoomkomet/breaking-down-the-danish-study-on-the-environmental-impacts-of-grocery-carrier-bags-b8c97eb6c8fb


Subscribe to the free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Support this podcast with a monthly donation on Patreon: https://patreon.com/storytellingpod

Learn more about our upcoming book club schedule, including how to get 50% off our October book White Skin, Black Fuel: On the Danger of Fossil Fascism by Andreas Malm and the Zetkin Collective: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/

Follow this podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395

Learn more about the iRoar podcast network: https://iroarpod.com/



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Sep 16, 2022
"The Trees Belong Each to Themselves": On Tolkien's Ecology with the Rev. Tom Emanuel
1:10:23

With a new Lord of the Rings television series out, I thought it was high time to explore the powerful environmental themes of Middle-Earth. Alongisde Tolkien expert Tom Emanuel, I dig deep into Treebeard, Tom Bombadil, power's corrupting force, and finding courage to resist in the face of overwhelming odds. We also briefly give our takes on the first two episodes of The Rings of Power. Whether you have multiple dogeared copies of The Silmarillion or you only vaguely remember the movies, my hope is this podcast helps give you a fresh perspective on the fantasy epic.


Follow the Rev. Tom Emanuel on Twitter: https://twitter.com/RealTomEmanuel

Subscribe to the free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Support this podcast with a monthly donation on Patreon: https://patreon.com/storytellingpod

Learn more about our upcoming book club schedule, including how to get 50% off our October book White Skin, Black Fuel: On the Danger of Fossil Fascism by Andreas Malm and the Zetkin Collective: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/

Follow this podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395


Thanks to composer Howard Shore for inspiring a new riff on my theme song.



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Sep 06, 2022
Animal Revolution: Ron Broglio on Sharing the Earth
46:43

This week's guest is Ron Broglio, English professor at Arizona State University and author of the book Animal Revolution. We talk about the myriad ways in which nonhuman creatures through sand in the gears of the capitalist machine, and how we might respond to better share the earth.


Learn more about the book here: https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-division/books/animal-revolution

Listen to my prior interview with Matt Bell, who Broglio discusses in today's episode: https://play.acast.com/s/storytelling-animals/appleseed-matt-bell-climate-fiction-geoengineering-wonder


Subscribe to the free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Support this podcast with a monthly donation on Patreon: https://patreon.com/storytellingpod

Learn more about our upcoming book club schedule, including how to get 50% off our October book White Skin, Black Fuel: On the Danger of Fossil Fascism by Andreas Malm and the Zetkin Collective: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/

Follow this podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395


Learn more about the iROAR podcast network, to which Storytelling Animals newly belongs, here: https://iroarpod.com/



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Aug 30, 2022
What Does the Inflation Reduction Act Mean for Climate? with Johanna Bozuwa
1:08:00

The Inflation Reduction Act (IRA), the biggest climate legislation in US history, just passed Congress. What is the good, the bad, and the ugly of the bill? How did we get here, and what is next for the climate movement? I spoke with Johanna Bozuwa, executive director of the Climate and Community Project (CCP).


Read the CCP's analysis of the IRA here: https://www.climateandcommunity.org/inflation-reduction-act


Subscribe to the free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Support this podcast with a monthly donation on Patreon: https://patreon.com/storytellingpod

Join our next book club on Indigenous environmental justice: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/

Two reviews of As Long as Grass Grows: https://progressive.org/magazine/when-grass-stops-growing-tempus/ and https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/no-savior-on-the-horizon-native-peoples-fight-for-environmental-and-cultural-protection/

Follow this podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395



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Aug 16, 2022
Animal Crisis: A New Ethical Paradigm, with Alice Crary and Lori Gruen
58:20

Today's guests are philosophers Alice Crary and Lori Gruen, authors of the new book Animal Crisis: A New Critical Theory. In it, they argue that the dominant approaches to animal ethics--whether utilitarian or rights-based-- treat animals too much as abstractions and often fail to engage with the political, economic, and social systems that sustain oppression among humans and other creatures alike. To grow an alternative, they believe, we must pay more attention to our relationships and learn new ways of seeing.


Learn more about the book here: https://www.politybooks.com/bookdetail?book_slug=animal-crisis-a-new-critical-theory--9781509549672

Read an excerpt: bostonreview.net/articles/the-animal-crisis-is-a-human-crisis/


Subscribe to the free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Join our next book club on Indigenous environmental justice: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/

Support this podcast with a monthly donation on Patreon: https://patreon.com/storytellingpod

Follow this podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395



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Aug 09, 2022
The Book of Minds: Philip Ball on Animals, Plants, AI, and Consciousness
1:16:48

Am I conscious? Yes. How about you, or a chimpanzee or a parrot? Almost definitely. What about an oak tree, a bacterium, an electron, or God? In The Book of Minds: How To Understand Ourselves and Other Beings, From Animals to AI to Aliens, science writer Philip Ball explores the minds or mind-like qualities that seem to exist in the world, and how best to make sense of it all when the science of subjective experience remains so uncertain. He joined me for this episode to discuss the book, the evolution of nervous systems, and the difference between animals and a Roomba.


Learn more about the book here: https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/B/bo180760293.html

Follow Philip on Twitter: https://twitter.com/philipcball


Subscribe to the free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Join our next book club on indigenous environmental resistance: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/

Support this podcast with a monthly donation on Patreon: https://patreon.com/storytellingpod

Follow this podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395



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Aug 02, 2022
Novel of the Apes: On T.C. Boyle's Talk To Me, Amitav Ghosh, and Animals in Fiction
1:01:00

In T.C.Boyle's 2021 novel Talk To Me, one of the main characters is a chimpanzee. It's a fascinating study in how humans respond to other apes, and an ambitious experiment in imagining what it might be like to be one. Using the novel as a starting point, in this solo episode I explore whether learning to love chimpanzees can help break down the human/animal divide, and how Boyle's portrayal of Sam the chimpanzee differs from other novels about animals. I also draw on Amitav Ghosh's The Nutmeg's Curse to argue for the importance of giving voice to nonhuman characters in fiction, and the unique role stories are able to play.


Learn more about Talk to Me here: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/talk-to-me-tc-boyle

Learn more about The Nutmeg's Curse: https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/N/bo125517349.html

Read an excerpt of The Nutmeg's Curse on brutes and storytelling animals (how this podcast got its name): https://orionmagazine.org/article/brutes/

Read the essay I mentioned on orangutans: http://newsocialist.org.uk/red-apes/


Join our next book club on The Ministry for the Future: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/

Subscribe to the free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Support this podcast with a monthly donation on Patreon: https://patreon.com/storytellingpod

Follow this podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395



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Jul 19, 2022
Happy Birthday, Henry David Thoreau: On Walden and Social Justice, with Alda Balthrop-Lewis
1:09:13

Today marks the 205th birthday of Henry David Thoreau, and to celebrate, I brought on Alda Balthrop-Lewis, author of Thoreau's Religion: Walden Woods, Social Justice, and the Politics of Asceticism. Why (if at all) does Thoreau still matter? How did he engage with the political issues of his time, in particular slavery and the advances of industrial capitalism? Do the ascetic practices he engaged in at Walden Pond have any lessons for the contemporary environmentalist?


Learn more about Alda's book here: https://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/religion/religious-ethics/thoreaus-religion-walden-woods-social-justice-and-politics-asceticism?format=HB

Read her analysis of Thoreau's critique of philanthropy here (also a response to the 2015 anti-Thoreau New Yorker article I mistakenly attribute to The Atlantic in the podcast): https://religiondispatches.org/thoreaus-ferocious-critique-of-philanthropy-does-not-make-him-selfish/

Read my 2017 article on Thoreau, from which I quote in the intro, here: https://inthesetimes.com/article/the-abolitionist-of-walden-pond


Alda's book focuses on Walden, Thoreau's most famous work and the one most relevant to her argument about political asceticism. But or if you are interested in exploring his ideas further, I also recommend some of his essays:

On Resistance to Civil Government (this is the famous and influential one about civil disobedience) - https://archive.vcu.edu/english/engweb/transcendentalism/authors/thoreau/civil/

Slavery in Massachusetts (perhaps my favorite) - https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Slavery_Massachusetts.html

Life Without Principle - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1863/10/life-without-principle/542217/

A Plea for Captain John Brown - https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2567/2567-h/2567-h.htm


Subscribe to the free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Support this podcast with a monthly donation on Patreon: https://patreon.com/storytellingpod

Follow this podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395

Learn more about the Storytelling Animals Book Club here: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/



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Jul 12, 2022
The Future Is Degrowth, with Aaron Vansintjan
1:07:41

Today's topic is "degrowth": What does it mean? Is it actually desirable? How could we achieve it? And do we really need to confront economic growth if we want to fight climate change and build a just, sustainable society? My guest is Aaron Vansintjan, co-author of The Future Is Degrowth: A Guide to a World Beyond Capitalism. The interview starts at 3:41.


Learn more about the book here: https://www.versobooks.com/books/3989-the-future-is-degrowth

Follow Aaron on Twitter: https://twitter.com/a_vansi


Subscribe to the free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Support this podcast with a monthly donation on Patreon: https://patreon.com/storytellingpod

Follow this podcast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395

Learn more about the Storytelling Animals Book Club here: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/


Listen to my interview with Kate Soper, author of Post-Growth Living: https://play.acast.com/s/storytelling-animals/kate-soper-post-growth-living-alternative-hedonism-climate

Listen to my interview with Dylan Harris, co-editor (with Aaron) of Not Afraid of the Ruins: https://play.acast.com/s/storytelling-animals/not-afraid-of-the-ruins-dylan-harris-uneven-earth-hope



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Jun 28, 2022
Steve Brusatte on Our Mammal Past and the Science of Jurassic World
46:43

Today's guest is paleontologist Steve Brusatte, author of the new book The Rise and Reign of the Mammals: A New History, From the Shadow of the Dinosaurs to Us, previously the author of The Rise and Fall of the Dinosaurs, and also a paleontology consultant on the new movie Jurassic World: Dominion. We talk about what he calls "the story of us": the long history of our mammal ancestors from even before the dinosaurs, the three mass extinctions these mammals have survived (so far), how some of those mammals endured warm periods and ice ages and became humans, and what the future might hold. Steve also reveals his ethical concerns about the (unlikely) prospect of a real-life Jurassic World, and why we're both excited about dinosaur feathers.


Learn more about The Rise and Reign of the Mammals here: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-rise-and-reign-of-the-mammals-steve-brusatte?variant=40073694543906


Sign up for my free weekly newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Support this podcast on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/storytellingpod

For more information on the Storytelling Animals book club: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/


Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395




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Jun 21, 2022
The Science and Ethics of Animal Dreams, with David M. Peña-Guzmán
55:17

Today I talk with David M. Peña-Guzmán about his new book When Animals Dream: The Hidden World of Animal Consciousness. David is associate professor of humanities and liberal studies at San Francisco State University and the cohost of Overthink podcast.

Learn more about the book here: https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691220093/when-animals-dream


Sign up for my free weekly newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Support this podcast on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/storytellingpod

For more information on the Storytelling Animals book club: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/


Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395



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Jun 14, 2022
Obituaries for Extinct Animals, with Hannah Seo
38:07

My guest for the 20th(!) episode is science journalist Hannah Seo--we talked about her reporting on the tragic demise of the Christmas Island forest skink and the Bramble Cay melomys, two extinct species she recently eulogized for the guardian. How did they die? Could we have stopped it? What was it like for the scientists who watched them fade away?


Hannah's extinction obituary of the skink: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/18/christmas-island-forest-skinks-lizard-extinct-aoe

And of the melomys: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/01/extinction-obituary-bramble-cay-melomys-climate-change-aoe

Follow Hannah on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ahannahseo


Sign up for my free weekly newsletter: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Support this podcast on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/storytellingpod

For more information on the Storytelling Animals book club: https://daytonmartindale.com/book-club/


Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395



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Jun 07, 2022
Kate Soper on the Pleasures of Post-Growth Living
1:10:02

Philosopher Kate Soper explains why going beyond consumerism won't just help the environment--it will make us happier. Together we discuss a slower-paced world with fewer cars, less work, less stuff, and more pleasure.


Learn more about her book, Post Growth Living: For an Alternative Hedonism, here: https://www.versobooks.com/books/3693-post-growth-living

If you like this episode, please sign up for the Storytelling Animals newsletter here to keep up with the podcast: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Support this podcast on Patreon here, and receive early access to episodes: https://patreon.com/storytellingpod


Subscribe at the Lorax Tier or above to join the Storytelling Animals Book Club, we have Zoom discussions the last Tuesday of the month at 5:30 Pacific.

Our next three meetings are:

5/31 - The Fifth Season by N.K. Jemisin

6/28 - Entangled Life by Merlin Sheldrake

7/26 - The Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson

To try out one meeting as a free trial, subscribe to my email list: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d


Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395


To read more of Soper's work on alternative hedonism, look here: https://thenextsystem.org/learn/stories/new-hedonism-post-consumerism-vision



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May 24, 2022
Why I Chose the Train Over the Plane
36:37

Last week I took a 48+ hour Amtrak train from Los Angeles to Dearborn, Michigan, just outside of Detroit. It ended up taking even longer, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat. In this episode I talk about my experience and explain the climate impacts of aviation, rail, and buses, and explain why I think trains may be the future of long-distance transportation.


If you like this episode, please sign up for the Storytelling Animals newsletter here to keep up with the podcast: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Support this podcast on Patreon here, and receive early access to episodes: https://patreon.com/storytellingpod

Subscribe at the Lorax Tier or above to join the Storytelling Animals Book Club, we have Zoom discussions the last Tuesday of the month at 5:30 Pacific.

Our next three meetings are:

5/31 - The Fifth Season by N.K. Jemisin

6/28 - Entangled Life by Merlin Sheldrake

7/26 - The Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson

To try out one meeting as a free trial, subscribe to my email list: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d


Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395


Relevant links from this episode below:

The Eric Holthaus article that started it all: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2014/02/why_a_meteorologist_took_the_bus_for_28_hours_instead_of_flying.html


"Getting There Greener" (still broadly useful, although some of these numbers are out of date): https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/2019-10/greentravel_report.pdf


"The global scale, distribution and growth of aviation: Implications for climate change": https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959378020307779#b0300


My Jacobin article on overnight travel: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/07/greyhound-amtrak-hotel-stay-travel-vacation


My In These Times article making a leftist case for lowering your carbon footprint: https://inthesetimes.com/article/a-socialist-case-for-curbing-consumption-to-stop-climate-change


Oxfam report on inequality of carbon emissions: https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/carbon-emissions-richest-1-percent-more-double-emissions-poorest-half-humanity


"Grounded, and loving it. Can giving up air travel bring joy?":

https://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/2022/0418/Grounded-and-loving-it.-Can-giving-up-air-travel-bring-joy



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May 17, 2022
Kim Stanley Robinson on Wildlife, the Martian Constitution, and Loving the High Sierra
1:34:54

Kim Stanley Robinson is the author of the new autobiographical nonfiction book The High Sierra: A Love Story. He's also written 20 novels, including Red Mars and The Ministry for the Future, and now he's appeared on this podcast! We talk about his love of rocky landscapes, how he started backpacking, and the need to make space for wildlife. We also talk about how his Sierra life has impacted his fiction, and how he came to love science fiction in the first place. And so much more!


Sign up for the Storytelling Animals newsletter here to keep up with the podcast: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Learn more about the book here: https://www.littlebrown.com/titles/kim-stanley-robinson/the-high-sierra/9780316306812/


A reading list on the John Muir Sierra Club controversy, including both critical and positive assessments of his legacy:

1) https://www.sierraclub.org/michael-brune/2020/07/john-muir-early-history-sierra-club

2) https://www.earthisland.org/journal/index.php/articles/entry/who-was-john-muir-really/

3) https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/16/sierra-club-racist-internal-fight-505407

4) https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/2021-2-march-april/feature/john-muir-native-america

5) https://www.huffpost.com/entry/sierra-club-muir-racism-board-vote_n_619548aae4b0f398aeff3677

6) https://www.huffpost.com/entry/sierra-club-election-muir_n_624609f9e4b068157f74d448


Support this podcast on Patreon here, and receive early access to episodes: https://patreon.com/storytellingpod

Subscribe at the Lorax Tier or above to join the Storytelling Animals Book Club, we have Zoom discussions the last Tuesday of the month at 5:30 Pacific.

Our next three meetings are:

5/31 - The Fifth Season by N.K. Jemisin

6/28 - Entangled Life by Merlin Sheldrake

7/26 - The Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson


To try out one meeting as a free trial, subscribe to my email list: https://apple6.aweb.page/p/de4ee963-cd8d-4ced-9975-e13965236a7d

Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DaytonRMartind

Like this podcast on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Storytelling-Animals-105986165338395


For more on Half-Earth, see my interview with Drew Pendergrass and Troy Vettese: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/half-earth-socialism-planning-utopia-with-troy-vettese/id1604296764?i=1000556263826

For more on Ecuador's constitution and rights of nature, see my interview with Thea Riofrancos: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/resource-radicals-thea-riofrancos-on-democracy-our/id1604296764?i=1000551855853



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May 10, 2022
Not Afraid of the Ruins: Dylan Harris on Hope for a Different World
48:58

Dylan Harris is an assistant professor and geographer at University of Colorado Colorado Springs, as well as an editor of Not Afraid of the Ruins, a collection of speculative eco-fiction. We talk about how stories can help us make sense of climate change, the use of the supernatural in climate fiction, and the power of deep geological time. Not Afraid of the Ruins can be found online below, and will soon be updated into a published volume edited by Dylan, Rut Elliot Blomqvist, Aaron Vansintjan, and Srđan Tunić.


Read Not Afraid of the Ruins

Read Dylan's story "Odetta, Odessa"

Follow Dylan on Twitter

Watch this video about horseshoe crabs


To keep up with this podcast and learn more about the Storytelling Animals Book Club:

Sign up for the Storytelling Animals Newsletter

Support this podcast on Patreon

Follow me on Twitter

Like this podcast on Facebook



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May 03, 2022
Riley Black on Extinction, Evolution, and the Last Days of the Dinosaurs
1:01:57

You may know that an asteroid drove the dinosaurs extinct, but do you know what happened after the asteroid hit, and how we got from T. rex's world to ours? Digging into these questions can reveal a lot about how ecology and evolution work, and perhaps help us make sense of humanity's place in the web of life. To explore all this and more, I speak with science writer and amateur paleontologist Riley Black, author of The Last Days of the Dinosaurs: An Asteroid, Extinction, and the Beginning of Our World.


Learn more about the book

Follow Riley on Twitter

Read about the "dinosauroid" thought experiment


Sign up for free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter here

Support this podcast on Patreon here


The May 31 Storytelling Animals Book Club meetings will be about The Fifth Season by N.K Jemisin. Join the book club at our Patreon page or (to attend one meeting as a free trial) by signing up for the newsletter.



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Apr 26, 2022
We Are the Middle of Forever: Indigenous Voices on Climate Change, with Dahr Jamail and Stan Rushworth
1:12:12

Today's guests are journalist Dahr Jamail and teacher of Native American literature Stan Rushworth, who edited the new volume We Are the Middle of Forever: Indigenous Voices from Turtle Island on the Changing Earth. We talk about how the way we see the world impacts how we act, and why it's so important to look at each other and all our nonhuman relations, past present and future, as our kin. There is a difference, Stan and Dahr point out, between an individualistic worldview focused on our personal rights and a more collective mindset focused on responsibilities and obligations to our fellow creatures and to the future. Only one of these outlooks, they believe, is well set up to respond to a challenge like climate change.


Learn more about the book here

Watch a talk that Stan and Dahr gave about the book here

Sign up for free weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter here

Support this podcast on Patreon here


Upcoming Storytelling Animals Book Club meetings:

4/26 - Silent Spring by Rachel Carson

5/31 - The Fifth Season by N.K Jemisin

Join the book club at our Patreon page or (to attend one meeting as a free trial) by signing up for the newsletter.



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Apr 19, 2022
Too Hot To Handle? Rebecca Willis on Why We Need Deliberative Democracy To Fight Climate Change
55:21

As countries around the world fail to tackle climate change, many have begun to wonder whether democracy itself is up to the task. In her book Too Hot To Handle? The Democratic Challenge of Climate Change, Rebecca Willis argues that we need more democracy, not less--that we need to get everyday citizens more involved in the political process through citizen assemblies and other spaces for deliberation. Willis is a Professor in Energy & Climate Governance at Lancaster Environment Centre, where she leads the Climate Citizens project. 


Learn more about the book here

Read Rebecca's paper on deliberative democracy and the climate crisis

Read why I think long-distance bus and train travelers should get free lodging


Sign up for my weekly newsletter to get each new episode in your inbox, as well as to attend one meeting of the Storytelling Animals Book Club as a free trial. Our next two meetings are 4/26 discussing Rachel Carson's Silent Spring and 5/31 on N.K. Jemisin's The Fifth Season, recently chosen by Esquire as the best fantasy novel of all time.


To help keep this podcast going, get early access to episode, and continue being part of the book club moving forward, please support this podcast on Patreon.



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Apr 13, 2022
Half-Earth Socialism: Planning Utopia with Troy Vettese and Drew Pendergrass
1:14:11

Environmental historian Troy Vettese and environmental engineer Drew Pendergrass worked together on the new book Half-Earth Socialism: A Plan to Save the Future From Extinction, Climate Change and Pandemics. I spoke with both of them about the problems with Marx's nature philosophy, why we need widespread veganism and energy quotas, and how central economic planning can help us chart a way through climate catastrophe.


Learn more about the book

Read the essay that inspired the book

Read my review of E.O. Wilson's book Half-Earth

Read a Smithsonian overview of the half-Earth concept

Read my essay "Nature Defends Itself" on the nature/culture binary


Sign up for my weekly newsletter to get each new episode in your inbox, as well as to attend one meeting of the Storytelling Animals Book Club as a free trial. Our next two meetings are 4/26 discussing Rachel Carson's Silent Spring and 5/31 on N.K. Jemisin's The Fifth Season, recently chosen by Esquire as the best fantasy novel of all time.


To help keep this podcast going, get early access to episode, and continue being part of the book club moving forward, please support this podcast on Patreon.




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Apr 05, 2022
lauren Ornelas on Food Justice, Farm Workers' Rights, and Veganism
56:02

lauren Ornelas, founder of the Food Empowerment Project, talks about her decades in the animal rights movement, why our food choices matter, and why vegans should fight for farmworkers rights and racial justice. We discuss issues from duck farming's abuses to child labor in the chocolate industry to her organization's work increasing food access in communities of color.


Learn more about the Food Empowerment Project

The organization's new site on the dairy industry

Listen to lauren's TEDx talk here

Learn more about Sister Species: Women, Animals, and Social Justice


Sign up for my weekly newsletter to get each new episode in your inbox, as well as to attend one meeting of the Storytelling Animals Book Club as a free trial. Our next two meetings are 4/26 discussing Rachel Carson's Silent Spring and 5/31 on N.K. Jemisin's The Fifth Season, recently chosen by Esquire as the best fantasy novel of all time.


To help keep this podcast going, get early access to episode, and continue being part of the book club moving forward, please support this podcast on Patreon.



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Mar 31, 2022
The Insect Crisis: Oliver Milman on Protecting Our Six-Legged Allies
51:35

Guardian environment reporter Oliver Milman, author of The Insect Crisis: The Fall of the Tiny Empires That Run the World, joins us to explain why we should be worried about insect declines and how we can help out both as individuals and through larger scale political action. Plus, we explore why insects are worth appreciating for their own sake.


Learn more about the book here

Oliver Milman on little-known facts about insects

Tips to make your yard more insect-friendly


The April 26 Storytelling Animals book club will be about Silent Spring by Rachel Carson, which was important in raising the alarm about pesticides' threat to wildlife (a threat that has not gone away, as Oliver and I discuss). Typically the book club is for Patreon subscribers at the Lorax tier and higher, but if you would like to try it out before committing please sign up for my free weekly email list and reach out to me about attending one free meeting. The March 29 meeting is about Deb Olin Unferth's Barn 8, if you'd rather come to that one.


Contact me on Twitter with any questions or comments about the show!



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Mar 22, 2022
Saving Animals, Saving Ourselves: Jeff Sebo on Pandemics, Climate Change, and Animal Rights
1:07:24

I talk with philosopher Jeff Sebo about his new book Saving Animals, Saving Ourselves: Why Animals Matter for Pandemics, Climate Change, and Other Catastrophes. We discuss both moral and pragmatic reasons to care about other animals, then get into how we could include their interests in public health and environmental decision-making. Later, we explore tough questions like how to act when we are not sure about the consequences, whether insects are conscious, and how to include nonhumans in the democratic process.


Also, a brief word on methane and nitrous oxide (both of which are emitted by animal agriculture)--Jeff rightly points out that these cause significantly more warming per ton than carbon dioxide. The exact number one uses depends on what time period you measure the impact over, because different gases remain in the atmosphere for different lengths of time. The Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA's) website uses a 100-year time period, and puts methane at 28-36 times more impactful than carbon dioxide (even higher than what Sebo says on the podcast), and nitrous oxide at a whopping 265-298 times.


Learn more about the book here

Sign up for the free weekly email list

Support this podcast on Patreon

Make a one-time donation


And to follow up on some of the issues raised in our discussion:

Read about minks and the coronavirus here

Read about the French citizen's climate assembly

For more ideas on including nonhuman animals in democratic processes


For Patreon supporters at $7/month or more, our next monthly book club meeting is March 29 to discuss the animal-rights novel Barn 8. Then on April 26 we will discuss Silent Spring.



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Mar 15, 2022
Animal, Vegetable, Junk: Mark Bittman on How Our Food System Got So Broken
51:51

Mark Bittman is the author of more than 30 books and nearly 200 New York Times op-eds, known both for his cooking tips and his searing critiques of industrial agriculture. This episode we talk about his book Animal, Vegetable, Junk, which traces centuries of cruelty and exploitation to show how our food system got to where it is today. We only cover a fraction of this history in the podcast, but a consistent theme emerges: when food is grown with the primary goal of making money, rather than nourishing people and the land, bad things tend to happen.


Learn more about the book here

Subscribe to my weekly email list

Support this podcast on Patreon

Make a one-time donation to this podcast


Subscribers at the Lorax tier and above can join our next two book club meetings, both of which will confront industrial ag: on the novel Barn 8 (about factory farming of chickens) and Rachel Carson's Silent Spring (which addresses pesticide use).



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Mar 08, 2022
Appleseed: Matt Bell on Doubting Techno-Optimists and Going Big with Wonder
1:10:30

Matt Bell's novel Appleseed has no shortage of urgent themes, and on this episode we talk about whether democracy is suited to the task of rapidly confronting climate change, the perilously seductive allure of techno-optimism, and how fiction can help us imagine a future less estranged from the nonhuman world. Should we take geoengineering seriously? How should those in high-emissions countries think about our own complicity, even as we take action against the governments and corporations who bear greater responsibility? What if Johnny Appleseed were a faun? All this and more explored in the episode.


Learn more about the book here

Lincoln Michel on the "speculative epic"

A case against geoengineering

A case for taking it seriously


Subscribe on Patreon at the Lorax Tier or above to join our March 29 book club discussion of Barn 8 by Deb Olin Unferth.

Or sign up for the free weekly newsletter to get the latest episodes straight to your inbox.



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Mar 01, 2022
Resource Radicals: Thea Riofrancos on Democracy, Our Extractive Economy, and Indigenous Resistance
1:20:19

Thea Riofrancos, the author of Resource Radicals: From Petro-Nationalism to Post-Extractivism in Ecuador, talks about the challenges posed by resource extraction to indigenous sovereignty, the rights of nature, and our conceptions of democracy. We also think about what a less extractive economy might look like, and whether a green transition reliant on minerals for batteries and solar panels risks re-creating some of the harms of the fossil fuel economy.


Learn more about Resource Radicals here

Read Riofrancos' recent article on lithium extraction

Support this podcast on Patreon

Get this podcast sent to your email weekly here



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Feb 22, 2022
Civilization and Its Discontents: On Station Eleven, Planet of the Apes, and Kim Stanley Robinson
28:33

How do stories set in a post-apocalyptic future look back at our present world: are characters nostalgic for the affluence and convenience? Or do they look back in disgust, understanding that many of these luxuries were built on exploitation and environmental destruction? Or a little of both? I look at Emily St. John Mandel's Station Eleven (the 2014 novel and the 2021/2022 TV show), Dawn of the Planet of the Apes (the 2014 movie) and Kim Stanley Robinson's The Wild Shore (a 1984 novel) as three differing approaches to this question, and argue that while we can appreciate civilization's comforts, we shouldn't lose track of its costs.


Sign up for the weekly Storytelling Animals newsletter here.

Read my essay on The Wild Shore here.

Read Chas Walker's essay on Moby-Dick here.

Read Kim Stanley Robinson on the coronavirus pandemic here.

Support the podcast on Patreon here.

Follow me on Twitter here.



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Feb 15, 2022
Laura Jean McKay on Decentering Humans in Art and in Life
53:20

I talk with author Laura Jean McKay about her Arthur C. Clarke Award-winning novel The Animals in That Country, using fiction to give voice to other animals, and how literature can help us recognize that humans are not the center of the universe--that instead we are part of a larger, in some ways scary and humbling but also more wondrous world.


Buy the book here: https://scribepublications.com/books-authors/books/the-animals-in-that-country-9781950354375

Read about Laura Jean McKay's experience visiting a great ape sanctuary here: https://www.academia.edu/37308424/You_Are_Here_creative_non_fiction

Support us on Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/storytellingpod



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Feb 08, 2022
Sarah Lazare Makes a Novel Case for Publicly Owned Utilities
50:29

On this episode we talk with Sarah Lazare, who finished writing the novel Testimony after the passing of her father Peter Lazare, who had written the first draft. We discuss how the novel continues political conversations she had held with her father in life, and how to turn wonky topics like utility regulation into a thrilling narrative. We also discuss her recent journalism on global vaccine inequity, and why leftists should consider writing more fiction. If you like this episode please share, follow, rate us, and/or subscribe on Patreon.


Check out the novel here.

Read Sarah's latest article on lack of vaccine access here.




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Feb 01, 2022
Olúfẹ́mi O. Táíwò on Reparations, Climate Justice, and Thinking Like an Ancestor
53:24

In this episode, Georgetown philosophy professor Olúfẹ́mi O. Táíwò talks to us about his new book, Reconsidering Reparations, which makes the case that reparations must be a forward-looking project aiming to remake the political, economic, and cultural structures built by colonialism and the trans-Atlantic slave trade. He also argues that such a project must necessarily address the climate crisis, and that it will help if we can see ourselves in a lineage of fighters and revolutionaries that will continue long after we are gone. If you enjoy this episode feel free to like, subscribe, tell a friend, or support us on Patreon.


Buy the book here.

Read an excerpt here.

We briefly mention the IMF (International Monetary Fund) -- read an article Táíwò co-wrote about how that institution could play a role in reparations here.


P.S. If you like our logo, check out its wonderful designer, The Real Dancing Eagle.



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Feb 01, 2022
Emma Marris on How To Fix Our Relationships with Other Species
57:38

For the very first episode I talk with environmental writer Emma Marris about her new book, Wild Souls: Freedom and Flourishing in the Nonhuman World. We discuss why animals matter, whether species and ecosystems do, how to think about non-native creatures, and how to make our way forward in a messy but wondrous world. If you enjoy this episode feel free to like, subscribe, tell a friend, or support us on Patreon.


Buy Emma's book here

Read an excerpt on zoos here


Two articles discussed in the podcast:

Emma Marris' review of When the Killing's Done

Marina Bolotnikova on "invasive" species


And two more relevant articles:

Emma Marris on killing for conservation

Robinson Meyer on the restoration of the Santa Cruz Island Fox, which involved trapping and relocating golden eagles (who preyed on the foxes) and the controversial killing of non-native pigs (who were also eaten by the golden eagles)


P.S. If you like our logo, check out its wonderful designer, The Real Dancing Eagle.



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Feb 01, 2022
Trailer for Storytelling Animals
1:25

Announcing a green new podcast where we use books, both fiction and nonfiction, to make sense of the ecological crisis—and of what comes next. Our public debut is February 1, but Patreon subscribers get early access to episodes.


Credit to our logo designer, The Real Dancing Eagle.



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Jan 10, 2022