We're back with another episode in our Relationships series and we are excited to revisit the importance of connection. Fostering connection in our different relationships will look different, because every person is different, but what remains the same is that connection is an active process. Just being married or just being a parent does not mean that we automatically feel connected to our loved ones. But really focusing on connection makes our relationships stronger and so much more enjoyable.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. Take some time to think about what you love about your partner. What things light you up about them? How does it feel when you read this list? How does it change your energy towards them?

2. Think about the connection you had/have with your parents? Did you feel truly seen and accepted for who you are? If not, how did that impact your feeling of connection?

3. Have you viewed connection as a living process? What areas do you see that you would like to work on to improve your connection?

4. What ways do you stay connected with your friends? Consider asking what things help your friends feel connected to you. You might be surprised.

ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Navigating relationships can be challenging because we are all so different. In this podcast, we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflict and increase connection in your most important relationships. We talk about concepts like self-awareness, compassion, context, consent, and so much more.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas that are so helpful to have in our toolbox. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you would subscribe and share. We really appreciate your support as it grows. You can also check out our website, LivingJoyfully.ca, if you're interested in relationship coaching or to see what we offer businesses using these same principles.

Today's episode is part of our Relationship series, and we'll be talking about connection. Connection is a foundational lens through which I see the world. I think we're here to be in relationship and learn from that process. I think focusing on connection is what brings us the most joy and peace and opportunities for growth and learning as well.

Finding the best ways to foster connection can look a bit different in the different types of relationships. So, today we're going to look at the idea related to our relationships with our partners, our children, and our friends. Something that's common across the relationships is that connection is an active process. We don't have strong connections just because we're married, a parent, or a friend. That's the surface-level connection, but the connection we're going to talk about is much deeper than that, and the root of it is truly seeing another person for who they are - honoring that and supporting that.

With our partners, often many things brought us together, and as the relationship grows, the years go on and we fall into the rhythm of just moving through our days. And in that, sometimes we can lose sight of the person in front of us, of truly understanding who they are and what makes them tick. In the beginning, we're much more curious about all of that, and that curiosity and excitement is what feels so good, because they're feeling truly seen by us and we're feeling truly seen by them.

And so, if things are feeling off, this is most likely the root. We've lost sight of, and the excitement about, who this person we love is. Having a strong connection is what helps a relationship weather the storms that life is going to throw. And while it may not have all of the excitement of the early days, it can settle into this deep trust and knowing. And again, connection is so much about being seen and accepted.

And it's helpful to recognize, I think, that our culture tends to have a deficit focus, and if we fall into that in our relationships, it is a pretty quick path to disconnection. One of the first things I ask all my couples to do is to each write a list about what they love about the other person, to keep it on their phone or by their bedside, someplace they can read it every day, just steeping in that.

Seeing all of the amazing things about our partner, it changes the energy we bring to them and the situations we're facing together. Because that's the thing. When we have that foundation of trust and connection, we're able to handle what comes along together instead of turning to defensiveness or blaming.

We know we're different. We honor that and that we each bring something different, and from there we figure out how do we move through these harder times or this obstacle that's in front of us? Building connection with our partner is about seeing who they are now. And it may be different. We do all grow and change, but taking the time to see them and understand them is key. And finding ways to see each other will be different for each couple. It could be about having adventures together or working on projects together, just talking over a meal, being together and watching a show. It's going to be unique to each person, but understanding what helps your partner feel seen and loved and understood, and being able to communicate what helps you to feel the same, goes such a long way in creating this strong connection that we're talking about.

PAM: Yes. It really, really does. And I so much love your point, that connection is an active process, not something that's a given based on some factor, context, like, "We're married." "You're my child." Being in a long-term relationship with your partner absolutely does not guarantee that you're strongly connected with each other. That takes ongoing effort. And yes, I feel more deeply connected to my partner when they see and love me for who I am right now. Sometimes it's easier to take that perspective first. We both grow and change over the years, but when they're curious about what I'm up to, how I'm feeling and what I think about things, that's when I'm feeling more connected to them.

And that said, and that thing doesn't need to be all about conversations. There are people who just aren't into conversations as much, and as you mentioned, it can look different for different couples, because people truly are different. And then not only that, it can look different in different seasons for the same couple, because again, we grow and change, our shared interests wax and wane.

But what can remain a priority throughout is building and maintaining connection with our partner, however it looks right now. We can always be curious about who they are and what they like to do. We can always express appreciation for their presence in our lives. And then, like what you mentioned, Anna, the things that we love about them, no matter how big or how small, we can always notice and appreciate those pieces.

ANNA: Yeah. I mean, just turning our eye to seeing all the things they bring into our life can just really shift energy, especially if you're feeling stuck or disconnected or a little grumpy. And so, when we think about children, it's similar, but there are some differences. We have such a deep connection with our children, but part of maintaining that and bringing it to life for them is understanding that they are on their own path. They are unique human beings. And when we honor that and see them for who they are, that is when they feel the most connected to us.

We can probably all think of how it would feel to be truly seen by our parents. Some of us have experienced that and many have not. In some families, love is conditional. And it's really the opposite of true connection. The blood connection remains, but they're left feeling misunderstood or not seen. And I've come to think of tending to this deeper connection as building a bridge, a bridge whose foundation is trust. Trust that we are okay and safe where we are, but that a strong, sturdy bridge is there, that we can both traverse back and forth as needed. Us going to them, them coming to us, sometimes meeting in the middle. The bridge is built with time and understanding, honoring our differences and celebrating them for exactly who they are.

So often, I think when a parent wants to feel connected to a child, they will invite them to do something with them. "Hey, come over here to me. Let's go on a bike ride. Let's go camping. Come to the garden." And sometimes those invitations are met with excitement and sometimes groans and eye rolls, which can lead the parent feeling really disconnected or a little bit hurt, but the child's not rejecting you in those instances. They may not like those particular ideas. And when we understand them, what they love, what lights them up, what pressures they're under, we can go to them. We can meet them on their side of the bridge and fill both of our cups. And it means everything to have someone see us for who we are, to understand our capacity in that moment, to love us, even if we have different ideas and preferences. It just makes such a difference. 

PAM: I know! And I got goosebumps right now just thinking about that. And I really do love that bridge metaphor for connection in a relationship. The image that when it comes to connection, we can go to them, they can come to us, we can meet in the middle or anywhere in between. And that sometimes connecting can be happening when we're both hanging out on our own sides.

That can seem a bit counterintuitive, the idea of actively connecting with someone while not being engaged with them. Yet, as we talked about earlier, connecting with someone can be about them feeling seen and heard. So, if your child is needing some space to be by themselves, it can feel connecting to them when they see us actively cultivating that space for them. So, maybe keeping their siblings occupied so that they aren't constantly being interrupted, maybe bringing them a drink and a snack and slipping out without trying to start a conversation.

Can you just feel how validating and connecting that could be for them? Just turn it back on ourselves, how, when we're in that space where we want some alone time, how good that would feel. So, it's like, is that what we're needing? We would just feel so supported and seen and active connection will be built without that direct engagement with them.

So, the other piece that I wanted to mention is that the ways we connect, the ways we build that bridge, can be different for each child in the same family, will likely be different for each child in the same family. Because that could also be hard if we have a picture in our mind about what connecting with a child looks like. "I'm going to do this. I'm going to do it right. How do we do it?"

If we envision connection to look like doing activities together or hugging each other every day or reading books together or whatever that vision is, we can worry that we're not connected with a child if those happen to be things that they avoid, that they don't enjoy. But if we can release that vision and look at the ways each of our children actually enjoy connecting and being with us, we may discover that they are feeling connected and we just weren't seeing it at all.

ANNA: Right. We can get in our heads about things so often, you know? And we are so different, and that absolutely includes our children. We really do need to let go of ideas of what we thought it would be like and embrace the child in front of us. And in doing that, what you'll find is that you learn so much more about them and about yourself.

And so, we can see that connection isn't a formula, but again, it's this living process. And so, all those ideas, let's just set those aside and just really lean into, who are the people in my life and what does that look like for us to feel connected?

And so, when we're thinking about our friends, again, so much is the same in that everyone, no matter what, I will say this a million more times, wants to be truly seen and heard. Most would also like to be understood, but even if that feels hard sometimes, we can honor people, give them the space to be who they are, to move through the world in the way that makes sense to them, even if it doesn't make sense to us, to be there for them, with them. I mean, it really just is the root of friendship, all of these relationships as well.

So, I would say that most of us have friends that are different from ourselves. I'm an introvert and, maybe not surprisingly, many of my friends are extroverts. Extroverts make things easy for me in a lot of ways and they challenge me in that we see things so differently, but I can choose to love all parts of them, to see the gift in it, even if I need to sleep for 10 hours after a party and they're still raring to go, and they can appreciate that about me, and that's where we both feel seen and heard. That's where that connection just feels so nourishing.

Giving our friends unconditional regard. Listening, being there, learning what helps make them feel connected and being able to communicate what works for us, too, is just all a part of it. And again, it is going to be unique to each person. Some friends need conversations to feel connected. Some need actual physical time together. Others feel comforted knowing that space and time can pass, but that we'll pick right back up and still have that closeness.

Taking the time to know this about our friends just enhances those relationships and their ability to kind of nourish us and be a part of our close connections.

PAM: Yes. That was such a big a-ha moment for me that my friends didn't need to be super similar to me. We could be different people that enjoy connecting with each other in various ways that feel good for each of us, and that I didn't need to find one super friend that was going to meet all of my connecting needs.

I think growing up we can get the impression that we need one bestest, forever friend, that that's the goal when it comes to friendships. And while maybe that happens, it's not the only way to move through the world. It's not the only way to be in relationship with others, because people really are different and those differences matter a lot.

It doesn't mean we can only be friends with people that are similar to us, but whether it's our partner, our children, or our friends, it's worth celebrating them for who they are and finding ways to connect with them that bring us closer together, that help them feel seen and heard, and us feel seen and heard.

ANNA: Yes. Okay. So, something that just came up for me as you were saying that piece is, it's really important to understand that how we create connection and friendship may not be what our child needs. And so, what that brought to mind for me is, so often we can put on our kids, they don't have the best friend, or why don't they have a group of friends? They're not hanging out with this group of friends and doing all these things, because that's what we love. And why don't they have this best friend? I have this one best friend.

And it's like, both, either, and none of it is. Fine. It's so much about what the child needs, the person needs, in their relationships. And so, again, look back at the person, talk to them. Are they happy with their relationships? Are they happy? Because so often, kids can be happy with their sibling relationships and with their family relationships for a big stretch of time. And then there comes a time where maybe they want outside relationships and maybe those are older people that are more mentors that they enjoy. So, I love just what you were saying, just like leaving space for all of it is part of how we build connection and just honor our differences in that way. 

PAM: And I love the age piece you brought up, too, because we don't need to put constraints on like, oh, we need to find somebody your age. I had wonderful and continue to have wonderful and fulfilling relationships with my children alongside partner and friends. When I could take that piece out and just get onto a level and focus on the connection and the relationship, all those little blood pieces or expectations of relationship just kind of fell away. And it was just about the connection and the joy that we could experience together.

ANNA: Yeah. Just another, people are different. We all have our ways of connecting. So, connection is such a big topic and it's so important, and we really have just scratched the tiny surface of it. But I'm hoping that it's given some food for thought and a framework that connection is this active process. It's alive, and it's something that needs our attention to actually thrive.

And so, here are a few questions to think about as you turn an eye to the connections in your life.

Take some time to think about what you love about your partner. What things light you up about them? How does it feel when you read this list? How does it change your energy towards them when you read it and then go talk to them?

And number two, think about the connection you have with or had with your parents. Did you feel truly seen and accepted for who you are at your core? And if not, how did that impact your feeling of connection with them and really even your understanding of yourself?

PAM: I think that's a big one, because just to gain some experience with what connection feels like. As we're trying to figure out what it feels like, did I feel connection? Who have I felt connection with? How did it feel with my parents? Everybody says connection and you can have a sense of it, but what does it really feel like? And that's what we're trying to cultivate as we figure out all these different ways we might explore connecting with people.

ANNA: That feeling like, okay, when I have somebody that sees me, oh, what does that feel like? How does that feel different when I don't feel seen and heard? So, yeah, I love that for kind of teasing out, what do I want in connection and how do I want to be in connection?

Okay. So, have you viewed connection as a living process? What areas do you see that you would like to work on to improve your connection? So, I think this is important too, right? Just taking stock of the important people in your life. Hey, am I seeing them? Do I feel seen by them? Are there things that I want to change in those relationships? I think that could be really interesting to explore.

PAM: Yeah, I think so, too. Just the whole idea of it being a living process. Something that can wax and wane and not beating ourselves up or having expectations. That feeling of growing disconnection is just a nice clue. It's like, oh, I want to a little more intentionally find or create or cultivate connecting moments with this person that I'm starting to feel a little bit of distance from, but I want to feel that deeper connection.

ANNA: Because it's never about being hard on ourselves. It's just about that recognition like, oh, okay, I am feeling a little disconnected. What's going on there? And checking in about how that feels. And what kind of steps you want to take.

Okay. So, last question is, what ways do you stay connected with your friends? Consider asking what things help your friends feel connected to you? Because it might be surprising. And again, just this interesting conversation, because I think sometimes we're just going through the motions of things.

We don't actually realize that yeah, I do have a preference. I like to talk to my friends, or I like to see my friends, or I like to, whatever the thing is. I feel like the more we can verbalize what our actual needs are to someone, the better chance we have to truly connect and to be understood.

Because nobody is a mind reader. Nobody knows what we're thinking. And, so often, we haven't even given it that much of a thought, but yet we're reacting and feeling it. And so, this is just a little call for some introspection and like, hey, I want to understand a little bit more about what makes me feel connected to someone.

PAM: Yeah, I think that piece of just taking that moment to understand ourselves and understand what works what helps and again, playing with that. Because like you said, maybe we don't quite know yet, but we can try all sorts of things that, oh, you know, I think maybe this will feel connecting and then you go try it a couple of times and it's like, no, that's not as much fun or we didn't have as much time to engage with one another as I thought we might. But trying different things and playing around with them is perfect. 

ANNA: I love it. Okay. So, thank you so much for joining us and we look forward to next time.

PAM: Yes! Talk to you soon. Bye.

We're back with another episode in our Parenting series, in which we explore our relationships with our children. In today's episode, we're talking about embracing all kinds of learning. Most of us grew up hearing that school is where learning happens and that the things that are taught in a school curriculum are the important things to learn. Honoring all the many ways that we can learn and the many unique interests that each person has is another way to deepen our connection with the people in our lives.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. What are some ways you see your child learning outside the classroom? What about outside the teacher-student dynamic?

2. What does your child like to do at home? What interest(s) are they expressing through that activity? Can you think of more ways you can bring that interest into their days?

3. Can you think of some ways to cultivate your child’s burgeoning self-awareness? Recognizing they are a different person than you (check out episode 3), how can you help them learn more about how they tick? Can you give them some more space to explore that?

4. How are you feeling about embracing and valuing the many kinds of learning that happen outside a classroom?

PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We are happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes, particularly the first 14 in our foundations series, because we continue to reference these fundamental relationship ideas and tools pretty often in our conversations. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and review wherever you listen. That definitely helps new people find us.

So, today's episode is part of our Parenting series. The first episode in this series, episode 16, was about how we don't need to bring school home. Life is bigger than school, and a child is more than their grades. School can be school. In the next parenting episode, number 19, we talked about celebrating the child in front. That shift in perspective from trying to shape our child into our vision of the "perfect child" to discovering, supporting, and celebrating the unique child in front of us makes all the difference in cultivating strong and connected lifelong relationships with our kids.

So, now we're going to bring both of these pieces together to explore and hopefully soon embrace not just school-based learning, but all kinds of learning. There are lots of ways of learning that don't look like a classroom, that don't require a hierarchical teacher-student dynamic. There are more informal environments like groups who gather around their interests in person or online. And people of any age can learn things on their own through watching videos online, reading books or websites, or hands on play and tinkering.

Just because these activities don't look like a more formal classroom, doesn't mean the learning that's happening is any less real or valuable. Kids can learn things both in and out of the classroom. And if the classroom environment isn't a great match for their learning style, their learning accomplishments and environments outside the classroom can really help them feel accomplished and capable.

ANNA: I think it's so helpful to think about learning outside of the school context. It's helpful for us as adults and then we can apply that to children, too. I think an a-ha moment can happen when we look at how we learn as adults. We tend to use a variety of methods, seeking out mentors, finding like-minded groups, reading books, researching, hands on, just digging in and doing it.

We dive into our interests as they come up, and this could be deciding to keep chickens, building a shed, becoming a yoga instructor, an arborist. Each interest creates an opportunity for us to dive into that interest in a way that works for our brain.

So, for me, I tend to like to read about something. I like to make some lists. I like to write down some ideas and then often talk to others who are doing the thing that I want to try. And then I want to start walking in that direction. I have other people in my family who are the dive in head first, start tinkering, touch it, do it, think about it. And then they want to seek some outside resources. And we're all just so different that way.

But when we start to examine what that organic learning looks like for us as adults, not in a school environment, we can start to see that it's the same for kids. Then we can be more open to creating the conditions for them to pursue the things that they're interested in, in ways that suit who they are. It's back to being open and curious, right?

There isn't just one way to learn, and that is especially true if one is thinking the only way to learn is from a teacher and a school. That can have its place. Great. And there can be room for all the varied ways in which humans learn things.

PAM: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I think not only is it helpful to embrace the all kinds of learning piece, it's helpful to embrace all kinds of interests. So, if the thing they love to do right now isn't directly related to a school subject or a prestigious career, it's still valuable. It's really fascinating to watch a kid in action when they're doing something they really enjoy. They learn so much, and it's almost as if it's by osmosis. They're just soaking it all in. That sponge metaphor is always around. And if they love it, it connects with them as a person. It has meaning for them, even if they or we can't yet explain what that is, but for now, it's coloring in a new area of the map of who they are as a person.

And the thing is, when we look back, often we can see the threads through their interests. So, how their love of wrestling with you on the couch became an interest in karate, which became an interest in parkour, which became an interest in stunt acting. But it can be really hard to see those threads in the moment, and even more so to try to predict them into the future, right?

But with the freedom to follow their interests, there's a good chance we'll be able to see those threads looking back. There is just so much value in embracing the things our children are interested in, and not just in the act of learning about the interest, but also in the development of a strong and connected parent-child relationship.

And if embracing your child's interests is something that you find challenging, I do invite you to check out Roya Dedeaux's book, Connect with Courage, practical Ways to Release Fear and Find Joy in the Places Your Children Take You. So, Roya is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and she has spent the bulk of her academic and professional career learning how recreation, play, leisure, hobbies, interests and passions, impact, and are impacted by mental health. She digs into why wholeheartedly supporting your children's pursuit of their interests and passions is so important, and she shares some excellent tools to help us navigate that when it just feels a little off. It can be a new way to look at things.

ANNA: It is really fun to find ways to support our kids and ourselves in digging into our interest areas, because like you said, there's so often a trail of interest that leads to so much learning and then get synthesized into the next pursuits. Looking back, we can see how those trails led to the broader interest or even a passion area, but we don't often see it in the moment. So, trusting that something is popping up for our kids for a reason, a reason we may not see now, is part of trusting them as a person.

We can use it as a way to connect and to get to know our kids. What do they love? What brings a sparkle to their eye? What things do they choose to do with their time? Especially for kids in school these days, they have very little free time. So, if they're using that time towards an interest, it's important to them. And us supporting and facilitating that helps them feel heard and valued. And we just learn more about what makes them tick. And I think we all really want to know our children at that deep level. And they definitely want to be seen and known by us. You and I have both worked with plenty of adults who weren't seen or understood as kids, and it really leaves a mark.

PAM: Oh yes. Yes. It really does. And I feel like that can come when the parents' focus is fixed on bringing the school home such that their highest priorities are doing the homework, studying for the test, so that you can excel at school, and then rounding out their childhood with extracurricular activities. There is just so little time and space left for kids to discover who they are and how they tick.

And I would also argue that a solid level of this kind of self-awareness is as valuable as knowing a general set of facts and skills as they move into adulthood. It's how we find our unique place in the world. Understanding how we tick, how we can care for ourselves, and how we want to engage with the people around us is such valuable knowledge to have at hand as we navigate our lives. So many of us need to figure all this stuff out as adults, precisely because our parents thought excelling at school

was the answer to everything.

So, embracing all kinds of learning for our kids will go a long way to helping them navigate their lives with just a bit more grace and compassion for themselves and for others.

ANNA: So much! I know for me, so I did well in school and it really wasn't a bad experience for me, but I still had a lot of unpacking to do as an adult to figure out what I wanted out of life, what things were interests of mine, not through the lens of cultural or the expectations of the adults around me. And while I know this is a parenting episode, I just want to say it goes a really long way to support the interests of our partners and our friends, too. Trusting that something is pulling them towards an interest, even if it doesn't make sense to us on the surface, it means so much for the people to be supported in the things that they want to do. It really is a critical part of every relationship.

PAM: Oh, exactly. Because in the bigger sense, absolutely, it applies to all people. All kinds of environments and all kinds of interests can lead to all kinds of learning at any age. And when we embrace all kinds of learning, our world is richer and more fun. Life is more interesting.

We're not just all trying to get on that same path. Building our unique selves and learning how we tick and the things that we love to do and how we love to do them. Our kids just learn so much about themselves that they will find useful their whole lives. That was my experience, too.

So, whether or not you had a good school experience or a more negative one, either way, it took up time and it took us down, or was trying to take us down a path that was more generalized as society thought was successful. And I had to do a lot of picking apart for many years to try and figure out who I was beyond that.

Because then all of a sudden you're dumped into the adult world and it's like, okay, go do these things. And oh my gosh, to figure out. Do I like to do that? What do I like to do? How do I like to do it? To recognize that life didn't need to be a big ball of stress all the time. That was a big part of it.

Okay, so here are some questions to ponder this week. Number one, what are some ways you see your child learning outside the classroom? And what about outside the teacher-student dynamic? Because, so often, that dynamic can also be replicated in places, just because it's conventionally seen as the way to learn. But yeah, just bring a new lens to it. How is your child learning? Think about what do they love to do? Regardless of whether or not you like it or whatever, when they're doing it, when they're doing something that lights them up, look for the learning, see the learning that's happening.

ANNA: Yeah, it's there.

PAM: It's there. It's there. So, what does your child like to do at home? Now, let's take that in a little bit of a different direction. What interests are they expressing through that activity? So, we're going to look a little bit deeper at it. Can you think of more ways that you can bring that interest into their days.

So, maybe it's a show or a game or whatever it is that they like, if you can start to see what it is about that thing that they like. Is it the story they love? Is it the music they love? Is it the challenge? Whatever it is. And then think about more ways that you might be able to bring things into your lives that also meet that underlying interest.

ANNA: Yeah, I love that.

PAM: Number three. Can you think of some ways to cultivate your child's burgeoning self-awareness? Recognizing that they are a different person than you? And if you want to talk about that more, check out episode three. How can you help them learn more about how they tick? Can you give them some more space to explore that instead of always popping in to tell them the right way to feel the right way to do something, all those pieces? A little bit more space so that they can start making some choices and you can both start learning about how they would approach things, how they tick, what feels good to them.

And our last question, how are you feeling about embracing and valuing the many kinds of learning that happen outside of a classroom?

ANNA: Yeah, I think I want to say about this one, because I think most of us, as adults, have been through this very long school system and we kind of were sold that that's the way to learn. So, I feel like it was a process for me to start recognizing there were different ways to learn and what that looks like. And so, I do think it's really important to just think about your own journey with that and how it's playing out for you as an adult and how you've branched off in different directions or have you? So, I think it's interesting.

PAM: Yeah, I think it's so fascinating to see, not just put that on a pedestal as the one right way to learn, that it's cool and it has its place and they're learning things there. But also it's just as value to be valuable to be learning all sorts of other things that make up them as a whole person rather than just what the curriculum says.

Anyway, I think this is going to be a lot of fun for people to start exploring. I'm excited that we shared this, and I thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye!

ANNA: Take care.

We're back with another episode in our Conflicts series and we're talking about triggers. A trigger is an intense, emotional, negative reaction to something, whether it's words or actions. Triggers often stem from previous trauma or childhood experiences. Getting a handle on our triggers, recognizing them, and learning to set them aside is an important first step to avoiding and minimizing conflict with our loved ones.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

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1. Are you aware of your triggers? If not, look for times when you find yourself activated out of proportion with the situation. Knowing our triggers helps us be more intentional with our actions. 

2. Can you think of a time when acting from a trigger impacted a conversation? What would it look like if you had a do over? 

3. Have you noticed triggers in your partner? 

4. What tools do you want to put in place with your partner to help each other navigate when one of you is feeling triggered?

ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We're happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas that are so helpful to have in your toolbox. If you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you would subscribe and share. We really appreciate your support as it grows.

This week's episode is part of our Conflicts series, and we're going to be talking about triggers. It's so helpful to understand ourselves and our triggers and hot buttons, noticing what comes up for us when conflict arises. Understanding how, in general, we deal with and feel about conflicts can help us be more intentional with our words and actions.

So, for some context, a trigger is an intense, emotional negative reaction to something, whether it's words or actions. The clue that our reaction is in response to a trigger is that it's often out of step with the actual situation in front of us, and it will also bring about some intense feelings in our body. That's because triggers are actually about us, not at all about the situation in front of us. They often stem from previous trauma or childhood experiences, and they bring this confronting aspect and energy to the conflict for us that nobody else sees or feels.

PAM: Yes. I think that's one of the most interesting aspects for me, that the intense reaction I'm feeling isn't being reflected in the other people. Like, why aren't they more upset about this? Why can't they see what's wrong with this situation? I'd get more upset, because it seemed like they didn't care and I'd feel almost compelled to open their eyes to what was going on. So, eventually I began using that mismatch as a clue that my reaction might have more to do with me than the actual situation at that moment. But it can be hard not to get immediately carried away by that rush of emotions. Right?

ANNA: Exactly. Getting a handle on our triggers, recognizing them, and learning to set them aside is an important first step to avoiding and minimizing conflict with our loved ones. And to be clear, setting aside triggers doesn't mean ignoring them. Rather, it means taking the time to explore and process them outside of the conflict, to make sure we're truly reacting to the person and the situation in front of us.

And the first step to that is to slow down. Give yourself some space to bring your awareness to the moment in front of you and see if others are maybe not reacting as strongly as you are, or if your reaction seems to not fit the situation. If you notice that, you can take a pause and take steps to calm your nervous system.

So, somatic approaches are used to engage the relationship between mind, body, brain, and behavior. There are some great somatic tools out there that can help calm our nervous system, allowing us to act with intention again, a simple one being cold water on your wrist. So, excusing yourself to the bathroom for some quick cold water therapy can bring you back into the moment so that you can more intentionally face the situation in front of you. You can dig into whatever that trigger was bringing up later. Right now, you want to be present in the situation with your partner or child and not be confusing the situation with baggage from your past.

And so, I want to talk about the 90-Second Rule, which helps us understand some of the physiology that's happening when we have any kind of reaction. So, the concept was introduced by Jill Bolte Taylor in her book, My Stroke of Insight. In it, she describes how whenever our brain circuitry is triggered, could be fear, joy, laughter, anger, the associated chemicals are released and it takes 90 seconds for them to flush out of the body. So, at that point, we have a choice. We can choose to rethink the thought that brought about that physiological response, thus triggering it again, which means we need to actively choose to stay in that place, a place that's now in the past. To keep those feelings of fear, anger, or even laughter going, we have to keep buying back into that thought every 90 seconds.

And as you gain experience tuning into this process in your body, you'll start to notice the pause and recognize when you buy back into the thought. It's important to note though, that during the 90 seconds, you will most likely not be able to make a different choice. So, for example, once you've triggered an anger response, you need to let those chemicals course through you for the 90 seconds.

Then you'll have a chance to bring yourself to the present moment and make a different choice.

And while you may not be able to choose to feel differently during the 90 seconds, you can stop yourself from reacting from that anger, especially when you know that intensity of that moment will pass. It's so empowering to realize we have that control, that our anger doesn't control us, that we have choices along the way to react differently.

And I actually had a really interesting example of this just two weeks ago. So, I was in a hotel room and the fire alarm went off. So, it's like wake the dead fire alarm in a hotel. I was in a deep, deep sleep. My whole body, like I sit bolt upright, I'm super activated, my heart's pounding. I'm like, what's happening? There were fire trucks, the whole nine yards, but about 20 seconds in, I realized that the alarm still wasn't going off. The fire trucks had passed by. There wasn't really a threat, but my body was still on high alert. Heart banging, all the things. I tried deep breathing. I tried any tool I can think of, but it was only until about the 90 seconds passed, I felt my body calm down and I took a deep breath and I was able to go right back to sleep.

It was such a stark contrast and I think it was easier to notice in this situation, because I wasn't feeling the need to pull myself back into that state of alarm, because I knew that it wasn't that. I didn't need to buy back into it. I think it's harder when you're still mad at that person or that situation in front of you, but it's there. It happens. That pause is there and so, watch for it and it's pretty cool and kind of wild.

PAM: Yeah. Yeah, that is such a great example. Yeah. I think it's just so helpful to play with some tools, to see which ones can help us to just calm our nervous system down a little bit in the stress of the moment.

I mean, for me, a big one is deep breathing. So, a few deep breaths and not just like a deep breath, but concentrating on a slow out breath and envisioning the tension that I'm feeling washing out with my breath. Right? So, as you mentioned, often I'll excuse myself to go to the bathroom for a minute or two to do that. As you said, we may not be able to make a different choice in those 90 seconds, but we can try not to react. We can try to give ourselves space to let anger, fear, whatever it is, course through us for that period of time.

And to highlight what you said, because I don't think it can be said enough, it's about releasing the intensity of the emotions that are brought out by the trigger so that we can focus on the situation or conversation at hand and later doing some work to dig deeper and learn more about the trigger and where it comes from. Because if we ignore the trigger, figuratively stuffing it down, rather than setting it aside to be explored later, chances are it's going to keep triggering just as forcefully each time similar circumstances arise. If we get pretty good at stuffing it down and moving on, we can start to feel like a martyr, which often ends up disconnecting us even more from family and friends and our loving relationships. And if we find it harder and harder to do that over time, we're kind of on our way to burnout if we're not going to process some of this stuff, right?

ANNA: Oh my gosh. Exactly. Our triggers are pointing out areas that might need some healing or at the very least, some acknowledgement and attention. So, it isn't about ignoring them, it's just about choosing our reaction in the moment that best aligns with the person we want to be.

I think it might be helpful for us to just take a minute to walk through some common triggers, remembering that they are going to be super specific to each person, because it's all about our past and the things that happened and how we process that. But it can give you an idea of the things to watch for and a big piece of that is also going to be that body feeling, so, watching for that.

But one of them is getting in trouble. So, this is a trigger that many share from our time in school. Sometimes it can be from our family of origin reinforcing that as well. So, if you're in a situation where maybe someone's questioning you or maybe you realize that you made a mistake, you can have this all-over body reaction and it can cloud your judgment about the next steps that you take.

But you can keep in mind that, at that point, you're reaching from a place that potentially is decades past, where as a child you had very little control. In the situation in front of you, most likely, mistakes are viewed very differently and are not caused for such intense reactions. So, calming your nervous system so that you can clearly talk about what happened and ask some clarifying questions is going to serve you and the relationship much more than this oversized reaction that really won't make any sense to the person in front of you.

PAM: Yes, exactly. It won't make sense, as we talked about earlier. That can be very helpful too. A trigger that I've explored pretty often over the years is the fear of things going wrong. I thought I was being helpful in pointing out all the challenges that I envisioned that could come up with whatever the other person wanted to do or suggested. It's where my brain quickly went and eventually, I rationalized it as a skill. Let me tell you all the ways this can go wrong, so that you can come up with plans B, C, and D, or just realize right now it's too risky and move on to something else. See how much time I saved you?

But when I realized that my help actually created more conflict, I got curious and dug deeper. I found fear consistently being triggered underneath my professed help. I noticed that the fear was generating a kind of tunnel vision for me, in which pretty much all I could see were the things that could go wrong. And when I shared those things, others didn't take them as me being helpful, but as me not trusting them to make reasonable choices or to navigate things if they took a new turn.

I came to see that when I let fear trigger my reactions, when I tried to instill my fear into my partner or my children, even under the guise of being helpful, I was hijacking their experiences and learning. So, no wonder it often led to conflict.

So, I've gotten much better at instead looking at all the fun and interesting things that could come from the thing they're wanting to. At seeing their choices through their eyes, like we talked about way back in episode four, or even just getting curious and asking them what they're excited about.

I also got better at asking if they wanted to hear any feedback about challenges I thought might pop up. So again, it's not about stuffing that down, it's not about never thinking about it. It's like, okay, I'm going to set that aside for a bit and I'm going to look at this first, look at all the cool things and why they're very excited about this.

So, what was really interesting to me was asking them if they wanted to hear that feedback and the conversations that came up around that were very eye-opening. I learned that, so often, they had already thought about that same challenge and had a plan in mind in case it happened. And what was super fascinating to me was that their thinking about that wasn't driven by fear. It was just part of thinking about how things might unfold. They were just more clues to me that fear didn't need to be part of the picture, part of the conversation.

ANNA: And fear is such a big one for so many of us. And it is interesting, I think, to tune into any kind of habituated responses like that, especially if we notice they're causing ruptures or disconnections in our relationship, because I feel like, just like you found, just scratching beneath that surface will reveal some kind of trigger, some kind of fear, some kind of something that keeps bubbling up that we've kind of put a habit around that really isn't about the moment and just keeping us from looking at it.

So, one of my triggers is around control. So, I don't like to be controlled, and if I get a whiff of someone trying to control me, I'm going to start bucking. The challenge for me is that my reaction is usually not in proportion to what is actually. So, I do my best to notice it rising in my body. For me, it's a very physical experience and I like to name it just for myself. So. I'm like, okay, you're starting to feel controlled. Let's take a closer look and see what's actually happening here.

And so often, I mean, honestly, I'd say like 99% of the time, it's all about that other person, and they really aren't intending to control me or really even thinking all that much about me at all. And perhaps it's they're not feeling heard about something or supported about something. So, if I spend that time to really listen and understand where they're coming from, then we can find a path through whatever the issue is.

But if I start bucking against this perceived control, then the conversation invariably goes sideways. And it's just so often, again, it's just this defensive reaction in me doesn't leave space for any learning about what's actually happening for that person in front of me.

PAM: Exactly. Because so often, we can quickly shift the conversation to be about the trigger instead of what's going on in front of us. Like what? And they're like, what the heck happened?

A bit of a twist on that for me is that agency is very important to me, meaning choosing what I do. So, what can happen often is I'm intending to do something soon, then someone, often my partner, asks me to do the thing. Well, suddenly, yes, that whole body rush. Suddenly it feels like I've lost my choice, my agency. And now I'll be doing the thing to meet their request rather than doing it because I want to do it, even though I was already planning to do it. Resistance just immediately floods through me, and I need to work through that first, find my choice again, and then do the thing that I wanted to do all along.

What that also means is that I am careful with my asks of others so that they aren't received as demands and leave space for a cheerful, "Yeah, I was already planning to do that this afternoon."

ANNA: Yeah, I have definitely felt this one, too. And again, for that person asking, either they may just be processing out loud, they may be trying to check things off of our joint list. They're not trying to take away my agency and it still feels like they are. So, recognizing that trigger just helps me not snap back at that and just like, okay, that's about them. I'm planning to do it. It's almost even hard to kind of explain why that triggered reaction so intense. Because it doesn't make sense to the situation.

And that's, again, your clue to say, okay, this is not about this person or this situation. This is about something that stems from long ago, most likely.

And so, I think another flip side of this is that it can be really helpful to recognize when someone you're talking to is triggered. So, that will help you not take their actions personally. You can see that they're bringing an energy from somewhere else into the conversation and at that point, you can help slow things down. That will give them permission to slow down as well. It's never a time to push a point when you have somebody who's triggered in front of you. It will not go well. Asking for a break for yourself can give them a moment to regroup. Sometimes there's space for gentle questions, but often it's just better to just slow things down and allow them to ground back into the moment.

We don't want to meet that with defensiveness or I really think you'd see when you start looking, that's where so many conflicts happen.

In our closest relationships, I think it can be helpful to talk about this beforehand and have a plan if one of you is triggered. You can each decide what would feel okay in the moment. Is it moving towards a break? Is it a code word? Is it a somatic tool? Having some tools handy will help you both navigate those moments, so that it doesn't spiral into a deeper conflict. Because when we're in our rational brains, we don't want some trigger from our childhood to be impacting this relationship in front of us.

PAM: Yes. When we begin to recognize when we are feeling triggered, it does become easier to notice it happening with others. And vice versa, because maybe we notice it in others first, which then opens our eyes to recognizing when it's happening to us. But either way, our world gets bigger and our compassion grows, I feel.

And I also found it really helpful to chat with others about triggering situations outside of the strain of conflict. So, as you mentioned, we can talk about ways to share observations that the person seems triggered without further triggering them or us. And that can definitely look different for different people.

How would you prefer someone to share that kind of information with you? And we can chat about different tools to play with to help release some of that intensity and bring us back into the moment with clearer eyes. Which tools work better for each person? How can we keep those tools close at hand and easy to access? That is another fun thing to play with. If it's a spray, if it's a smell, we can keep those things in our pocket. Put them in a basket in a main room, those kinds of things, because these are positive things, these are helpful tools. It's not like, oh my gosh, I'm failing, so I need to go and do this thing. Right? Not that at all.

And we can also chat about different ways to approach conversations that have a better chance of just not triggering the other person's trauma or bad memories or fears. We don't want to trigger that so that it rushes to mind for them. So, it could be something simple as a change of phrase or Tone, as you mentioned, or energy. That can sometimes be all it takes not to trigger a trigger in the first place.

And we can talk about how each person likes to process things like challenges and triggers. So, are they or you more of an external processor wanting to talk about it as they or us peel back the layers? Or more of an internal processor wanting some quiet time and space to think things through on their own? Or is it more of a mix dependent on the circumstances?

And of course, all of these are not one and done conversations. We'll learn more and tweak things along the way. We'll try out a tool. It helps. It doesn't help. Maybe it helps for a while and then it stops helping as much. But this deeper understanding of ourselves and our loved ones most definitely can help us navigate conflict and triggers with more grace and compassion.

ANNA: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. I mean, it's a process, but with this greater understanding of ourselves, with this shared language that we're talking about, we'll be able to cultivate an environment where we can stay connected. We don't take things personally and we can remain open and curious.

And I think, again, as we've been talking about, just bringing awareness changes what's happening in the home, because we have this language, we have this understanding, so it's not just running through the motions and kind of repeating the same fights, or repeating the same triggers or getting triggered every time something happens. So, I really love just these simple things that just bring new language and new awareness to the situations.

PAM: Yeah. I feel, for me, the biggest thing was it helped me not take things personally. Understanding the nuances of all these different situations and how all the different pieces of who we are play into the relationship and conflict and conversations and triggers and all those pieces help me understand that, oh, this isn't all about me. And it's not them doing something wrong. It's just who we are. And that was so valuable to me in navigating relationships.

ANNA: 100%. Okay, so let's talk about a few questions to consider this week. First, are you aware of your triggers? If not, look for themes when you find yourself activated, that seems a bit out of proportion with the situation. And be honest about that, because sometimes we're like, no, it was that serious. But the feeling in your body, you'll start to recognize it. Knowing our triggers really helps us be more intentional with our actions. 

PAM: It's feeling it in our body and like as you mentioned, it's like, no, it's not the trigger. If it happens multiple times. Like if it keeps happening over and over in similar situations like that, because the first 10 times, it's like, no, it's the thing. Yeah. Why does this thing keep happening?

ANNA: It's not the thing! Oh my goodness. Okay. Number two. Can you think of a time when acting from a trigger impacted a conversation and what would it look like if you had a do-over? And I think that'll be interesting as you kind of recognize like, oh yeah, that tone, that something, is a trigger for me that then we kind of have this escalation or this same conflict.

PAM: And I like the idea of thinking of it as a do-over, as in it helps us to more easily bring to mind choices in the moment. Because so often, when we're triggered, we just see the one thing. We're very focused on the one thing. So, we do our little bit of help to get us through those 90 seconds, through that first thing. And if we've thought about other possibilities, other ways we might choose to react, other kind of questions to ask in the situation versus declarations, if we've got that, it's closer to top of mind. So, over time, we can get to them a little bit quicker so that we can change, make a different choice, in recognition that we have a choice. And then as we talked about over time, we can tweak that and play with it.

ANNA: Definitely. So, number three, have you noticed triggers in your partner? And so, this is interesting, because like you said, as we recognize it in ourselves, we start recognizing it in others, but it's also that repetition that you're talking about. So, it's like, oh, every time I ask them about this thing, they kind of get snappy with me or whatever. Okay. Most likely, that's not about your question or what's happening. There's a trigger that's being set off that would be helpful to understand. So, look for those, again, repeating things or repeating energy even, like the same energy's coming. What's the common denominator?

PAM: Yes. I love that so much, because what we can do when we can start to recognize that repetitive reaction was seemingly over the top, because we can get stuck in, that is just over the top! I should be able to ask that question, so I just keep asking it again because their response is wrong.

ANNA: If I just keep asking, it's going to get better.

PAM: They'll figure it out. That might be a trigger. It's almost a response that they aren't able to control. That's when I can start thinking, oh, I'm going to play around with my tone, the energy, the timing of the question, the wording of the question, like there's so many ways that we can communicate something, that we can start to play with that and learn more. And then maybe in an off time have the conversation and ask them why are you feeling like that?

ANNA: We're bringing more compassion to it. And again, these are the people that we love. This is who we want to be in these relationships, even if we get a little like, that's over the top and too much. Okay, so question four, what tools do you want to put in place with your partner to help each other navigate when one of you is feeling triggered?

I really do think this is a cool conversation to have, especially if you notice some of these repeating fights or things happening, just like, "Hey, let's figure out, how do we take a timeout? How do we do that so it doesn't end up triggering that." Because we have abandonment triggers and then somebody feels if somebody's taking a break, then that can trigger something. But if we have some agreements ahead of time, if we have some plans in place, then we don't have to take it personally. It doesn't have to feel like that. And we can just give each other the space we need to be present and be intentional about what's happening in front of us.

PAM: Yeah. I feel like with those conversations over time around it, it just helps lighten the weight too of the moment, to have somebody just recognize that we're triggered, recognize and not escalate back to us even. You could just absorb it for us and just show compassion, as you were saying. That's where we're going.

ANNA: We want to cultivate that. For sure. Anyway, thank you so much for joining us this week and we look forward to next time. Take care!

PAM: Bye.

For our first episode in our Relationships series, we are excited to dive into the idea of Bids for Connection. This term, coined by Drs. John and Julie Gottman, describes a wide range of attempts at connection and conversation that many of us don't even notice. We have the choice of turning towards a bid, turning away, and turning against. Noticing and intentionally responding to bids for connection from the people in our lives can be an easy way to increase connection and strengthen our relationships.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. Does looking back on the last week through the lens of bids for connection change how you see any of your interactions with your partner or children?

2. This week, when your partner or child asks something of you, take a beat to consider the motivation behind the ask. Is it possible it’s a bid for connection? How does that change your response?

3. Have you found yourself turning against recent bids for connection? Are you feeling overwhelmed? What are some things you might do to help reduce your overwhelm?

4. Do you recognize some of your recent requests of others as bids for connection? Did they turn toward you? Are there ways you might tweak your bids to invite a more positive response?

PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are so happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to earlier episodes, particularly the first 14, our foundations series, because we continue to reference these fundamental relationship ideas and tools pretty often. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and review wherever you listen. That definitely helps new people find us.

So, today's episode is part of our Relationships series, and we're going to talk about bids for connection. This concept comes from Dr. John and Dr. Julie Gottman, who have been studying relationships for decades. And it can be a helpful lens through which to look at our interactions with the people we love.

So, a bid for connection is a small action that shows that a person would like to connect with us. It could be like, "Look at this," or, "I'm exhausted." Or just a hug or a request for help. Or even I have heard these, a loud sigh. It's an opportunity for us to make a choice in how we respond. The Gottmans described three possible directions that we can take.

So, "turning towards" means enthusiastically meeting the bid with connection, looking towards the person, responding with validation, increasing those feelings of connection. The person feels seen and heard, and the relationship is strengthened.

Now "turning away" could look like staying mostly unengaged. So, maybe continuing to look at whatever you're working on, glancing up for a second to say, "Mm-hmm," or replying, "In a minute." Sometimes it feels like that's the most we can do, but over time this type of response often leads to disconnection in the relationship. The person feels a little rebuffed, like you're uninterested in them.

And "turning against" is usually the result of actively being in a state of overwhelm. It looks like more aggressively rejecting the bid for connection. "Can't you see I'm busy?" "Oh, here we go. What now?" Or even just rolling your eyes rather obviously. Turning against the bid damages the relationship and makes it more likely that the person won't make future bids for connection with us.

ANNA: Yeah. This concept has been so helpful for me. It helps me see the moments where more connection is possible. And I know the person that I want to be is one who turns towards those bids for connection from the people in my life. But we do get busy and in our heads, and it's not always super clear that it's a bid for connection, because it rarely looks like, "Hey, I want to spend time with you."

And so, I do really like keeping this idea top of mind as much as I can so that I notice the more subtle cues that someone's looking to connect. Because it really is one of the easiest ways to keep relationships in a good place. Connection is the foundation of any healthy relationship, and the stronger and more secure the connection, the easier it is to navigate the ups and downs. So, finding ways to keep the connection strong is so helpful and we don't want to miss these easy ways to do it.

PAM: Absolutely, absolutely. And something I've found helpful is using this idea of bids for connection to look at those requests from my partner or kids, like you said, they don't always look like what they are. And it's particularly when they request something that we know they could do themselves. So maybe they ask you to bring them a drink or a snack or bring them their phone. At first, we may think or even say, "You can get it. You're closer." But if we instead get curious, we can take a moment and ask ourselves, if it's something they can do for themselves, why are they asking me to do it?

So, maybe it's about the act of getting the thing and we realize they're busy with what they're already doing, or we learn they're resting a sore leg, or that they're feeling a little bit under the weather. But if none of those fit, it may well be a bid for connection. Not that they can likely name it that way, as you said, but they are feeling a need to connect and this felt like a way that they could reach out.

And it's super important to note that meeting the request is not the same as meeting that need for connection. So, for instance, getting the drink doesn't mean their need has been met. So, if you bring the drink and immediately go back to what you were doing, 10 minutes later they may ask you to bring them a snack. That's another clue that it's not really about the thing, it's about connecting with you. The request is actually an invitation for you to join them for a few minutes to connect, to ask about what they're up to, and listen to their answer, to wholeheartedly join them in their activity for a while, something that fills their connection cup.

And it really helped me to remember they aren't trying to frustrate me. They are trying to meet a need. And the need for the drink is just a surface need. We know that, because they could meet it for themselves if it was just about that. The deeper need they're expressing is more likely for connection or maybe for reassurance that we value them and our relationship with them more than the thing that we're occupied with. It also helped me to remember that even seemingly negative behavior can be a bid for connection. So, particularly if regular bids have been ignored, they can get louder and more negative in an attempt to express how important it is for them to connect with you, to feel seen and heard by you.

ANNA: I love how you mentioned those odd requests that clearly they could do for themselves. It's like, "You're a lot closer to the kitchen," or the light switch, but it doesn't take much scratching below the surface at all to see that it's not about the light or the glass of water at all, but about needing that moment of connection. And like you said, that need will most likely not be met by just getting the light or the drink. Especially if I add a tone to it, like, "Here's your drink," or, "Fine!" The requests will just keep coming, like you said, and they could turn a little bit more negative or they'll move on to some other way, which could just be even harder to understand.

And for some reason this piece is kind of interesting to me because asking for something that they can do for themselves, we seem to have a harder time offering grace around this to children. If a neighbor were to ask us for water, we'd hop up and happily get it, but if our child does, we can start the, 'You can get it yourself," kind of lecture tone, and somehow then we'll tie it into this independence agenda or assigning some kind of future significance to this one little ask. "They're never going to learn to do things for themselves," which of course does not hold up to much scrutiny at all. But you see parents go there all the time. And the thing is, they really will learn to do the things for themselves. And most likely already know. But the request is, again, not about the water or the snack or the act itself. It's about this need to connect with you.

And I just always want to keep in mind the person I want to be in the world. I want to show kindness and consideration to the people I love, really to most people. And what I find is that I do receive it back in turn. So, instead of thinking, they will never learn to do anything for themselves, you can reframe it as, they're learning how to be kind and a loving person in a relationship, an incredibly helpful skill that will serve them the rest of their life. Because the thing is, if I would do something for a friend or neighbor, why wouldn't I do it for the people I love most in the world? It was just such an interesting question for me to ask myself. And it always reminded me that I wanted to be giving my best to the people that I love. I want to assume positive intent, even if it isn't clear in that moment.

And when we were talking before about HALT, I mentioned how the L for Lonely often ties into the bids for connection, and it's more along the lines of what you were talking about when it can kind of get a little surly or grumpy. If we have this grumpy tone, sighing, maybe some stomping about, it really can be about feeling disconnected. So, checking in and making sure, am I paying attention to what's happening? Have we been separate? Have I been engaged in my thing and maybe they're looking for me to kind of see what they're up to?

I want to ward off any escalation that could then lead to a conflict, because again, if someone gets extra surly and then they get snappy, then we can get locked into some kind of a conflict. And I actually think that once you have this idea as just part of your relationship, as part of your family, as part of just the culture and the environment you're in, then the negative bids lessen, because you have some language and recognition around feeling disconnected and can then find those positive ways to connect.

PAM: Yes. It gives us that language so that we can start just communicating more through it. Because connection just becomes part of the fabric of the family, I feel, weaving through all different kinds of moments. So, from those deeply connecting joyful ones, to disconnecting conflict, to bids for connection, and the varying responses in between. It's so rich. It's so rich. And then, like you said, when we can communicate more through that lens, there is less chance that it escalates to go off the rails. And of course, we can also make bids for connection, inviting our partner or child to join us in an activity or asking to join them in what they're doing, or opening up space for a conversation that's interesting to both of us. Just don't have expectations of their response or take their response personally, because that's not helpful. Their response is about them, not about you. That said, it doesn't mean ignoring it. If we're feeling ignored after a few attempts to reach out, it's helpful to have a conversation with them about how we're feeling. Because so often we're drawn to telling a negative story about what's going on, when actually, we're missing some information from their perspective.

Maybe I say, "I've been trying to connect with you the last couple of days, asking you to watch that new show with me. I'm starting to feel like you don't want to spend time together," and their response may well be, "Oh, I just didn't want to watch that show. I heard it's boring. I didn't realize you were looking to connect. Would you like to go for a hike together on the weekend?" "Sure!" or not. Suggestions like this, it's an opening for a conversation so we have the opportunity for everybody to share what things are looking and feeling like to us and then we can find a path forward together that is meeting all of our needs.

So, I just wanted to share that in my experience, the story that I've gotten stuck replaying in my head, that keeps me even more disconnected because I'm in my head, right? And it often really isn't how the other person is seeing it. So, it is so worth taking a step in and just saying, "Hey, something's up and I'm not seeing it this way. What do you think?" 

ANNA: The stories are so powerful and they so often derail us. Being more clear on stating the needs instead of jumping to a solution can help us define the ways that feel better together. The need in this situation being to spend time together or to feel connected. The proposed solution was watching the show. But we know that there's all kinds of ways that we can reconnect. And so, we don't want to tell a story around that.

And again, I think just keeping this top of mind helps us communicate the need more. And so, instead of being like this kind of subterfuge like, "Okay, we're going to make this little bid," we can be more aware of, hey, I'm asking about the show because I want to be with them, so then I can be more clear. So, definitely watch for any stories you're telling. And whenever you find yourself assigning thoughts or feelings to another person, you are telling a story. So, when that story is making you feel disconnected, just take that step back and ask some questions. Be more clear about what your needs are, and then you'll get a better sense of what's going on for the other person. And you can both work on finding solutions that feel good to everyone to see if the hike makes sense, or if something else, another activity makes sense. But it's that conversation, right? We're starting the conversation and we're being more clear.

It's hard when we have to guess about people. And again, I think just bringing this language into our lives helps us communicate more clearly and really understand better what is driving our behavior and the behavior of those around us. And it doesn't have to feel like such a mystery when we do that.

PAM: Because people, particularly those we love, don't need to be the unpredictable puzzles we to make them out to be. And we don't need to be an unpredictable puzzle to the people that we love. That's relationships, connection, conversation, language. Just learning about each other is just so incredibly valuable.

And these bids for connection, looking at things through this lens, I just found really helpful for me to just take the pulse of the relationship. So, here are some questions around bids for connection to ponder this week.

Number one, does looking back on the last week or so through the lens of bids for connection change how you see any of your interactions with your partner or children? It's just really interesting to use this lens and look in and see, oh, you know, maybe they meant this. Maybe they were thinking this.

And now, this week, when your partner or child asks something of you, try to take that beat to consider the motivation behind the ask. Is it possible it's a bid for connection? And how might that change your response?

Number three, have you found yourself turning against recent bids for connection? Are you feeling overwhelmed? What are some things you might do to help reduce your overwhelm? So, recognizing that we're turning against bids for connection isn't about beating ourselves up or, oh my gosh, you did something wrong. No. It's a wonderful clue that, oh, there might be something for me to look at. Am I feeling overwhelmed? Right?

ANNA: Right. And I would say it's often assigned to the relationship and it's often about the context. So, if you're rejecting bids for connection, you may just be like, ah, I'm really struggling with this person and they may be thinking, they don't love me, they don't want to be with me. When really it is this overwhelm and stress at work. There's some kind of contextual pieces like we've talked about before. So, just look at it as that clue, that little red flag of like, hey, I want to tune in a little more before this becomes a rupture in the relationship.

PAM: Yes. Because there is so much subtext that we're communicating with our actions. So, recognizing that they may be seeing our actions differently than what we're meaning by them. So again, language and communication is so helpful with that.

And our last question, do you recognize some of your recent requests of others as bids for connection? Did they turn towards you? Are there ways you might tweak your bids to invite a more positive response?

Because you know the other person. Coming out and explaining, I really want to connect with you, spend some time with you, is that a helpful way to approach it? Or one thing that was really helpful to me was recognizing, you know what? What I really want is to connect with them. I don't really care how. So, that helped me get to a mindset where I'm happy to just sit by them and join them when they're doing their fun thing. I'm just going to soak in their presence and their joy, their laughter, whatever it is. And that's going to fill my cup. It doesn't need to be, I want to connect with this person and I want to do it through something that I love to do. We can put so much inside our relationship!

ANNA: We can. But I think that's that self-awareness piece, too, and I think this is an important piece, because again, it's about the clarity of the need. So, right. You were able to identify in that situation, hey, just being close by feels good and just knowing what they're into and what they're laughing about, that feels great. And sometimes it might be, no, I want to have a deep conversation, or I want to talk about this thing that's coming up or that just happened. But then we can be more clear. So, then it's not, we're sitting down with the expectation of this big conversation when maybe the child or your partner's involved in something.

So, again, more clarity around what your needs are, and I feel like that's our responsibility, right? To understand our needs and to communicate them clearly. And so, all of these things, and just looking through this lens of bids for connection over this next week, I think you'll see some of these pieces and then you can kind of fine tune like, hey, am I being clear and am I being open to what they're trying to communicate to me as well?

PAM: Yes. Which brings up just one other piece. There's lots of pieces, but something that I learned over the years that clarity is just so incredibly valuable, because at first we can think, oh, you know, we love this person. They love me. They should understand me. They should know when I am feeling a little left out, or that I'm feeling like I want to connect. They should sense through my body language or something and they should make the effort. You know, that is a lot of expectations to put on someone. And can we really do that for everybody else?

So, being clear about our needs doesn't say that they don't love us that much or whatever. They don't understand us. They don't know us. Being clear is just so valuable so that other people know where we are and can respond in ways that are helpful, because, you know what? They love us, too, and they also want to be, they're in relationship with us. It's not a one way thing. Right. But they need to know what's going on.

ANNA: Yeah. None of us are mind readers and so, yeah, I love that point.

PAM: Okay. Thank you so much everyone for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye!

We're back with another episode in our Parenting series, in which we explore our relationships with our children. In today's episode, we're talking about celebrating the child in front of you. Most of us bring ideas to parenting about what childhood should look like and what our children should be like, but this can create disconnect in our relationships and make it harder to see the real, amazing people in our lives. Giving space for our children to be themselves and to be different than we were expecting leads to all kinds of amazing places!

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. In what ways have you celebrated your child for the person they are?

2. What does your child love? How do you see that as part of who they are?

3. What visions did you hold of having children? How has that vision helped or harmed your relationships with them? 

4. Take some time this week to think about your family and how you are all individuals, see and celebrate the differences. 

The Gardener and the Carpenter by Alison Gopnik

ANNA: Hi! And welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We're happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas and just really have enjoyed how they're all building. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you would subscribe and share. We really appreciate your support as it grows.

Today's episode is part of the Parenting series, and we're going to be talking about celebrating the child in front of you. Parenting can bring up a lot of things for people. And we want to do our best. We want to do all that we can. We want to do right by these children. We want to make sure that they have every opportunity to live their best life. And while all of those things and more come from this very loving place, it can sometimes lead us to developing expectations for our children and pushing them towards the things that we think are best. All the while, we're holding out this endpoint, this goal of a child successfully raised and a job well done.

When we bring the lenses we've been talking about on the podcast to this idea, it can really help: being open and curious, there's plenty of time, consent, connection. All of the topics we've talked about before are critical to bring it to this relationship with our children or we may miss who they actually are and what they want from this life.

PAM: Yes, yes, yes. Everything we talk about on the podcast applies fully to all our relationships with the people we love of any age. Now, I do imagine that for some listeners, while it's been interesting to consider these ideas with regards to relationships with other adults, for the most part, they might not seem very applicable to relationships with children. And if that's you and yet you're still curious why you might want to consider doing things differently and what that might look like, I invite you to check out the book The Gardener and the Carpenter: What the New Science of Child Development Tells Us about the Relationship Between Parents and Children by Allison Gopnik. And we'll put a link in the show notes. She's one of the world's leading child psychologists, a professor of psychology and affiliate professor philosophy at the University of California at Berkeley. And in this book, she explains how the familiar 21st century picture of parents and children is profoundly wrong. It's not just based on bad science. It's bad for kids and parents, too.

And I do love her gardener and carpenter analogies for parenting styles. So, with the carpenter model, parents are working with a goal of producing a particular kind of adult. They are essentially trying to shape their child into a final product that fits the vision that they had in mind, their blueprint.

So, for them, parenting is about control. On the other hand, gardener-style parents work to create a protected and nurturing space for children to flourish. She explains that a good garden is constantly changing as it adapts to the changing circumstances. And a good gardener quote, "works to create fertile soil that can sustain a whole ecosystem of different plants with different strengths and beauties and with different weaknesses and difficulties. In this way, being a good parent won't transform children into smart or happy or successful adults, but it can help create a new generation that is robust and adaptable and resilient, better able to deal with the inevitable, unpredictable changes that face them in the future."

And she also dives into the rewards of being a parent. And it's not your child's grades and trophies. She writes, "They come from the moment by moment physical and psychological joy of being with this particular child. And in that child's moment by moment joy in being with you." And by the end of the introduction, she sets us up with this. "So, our job as parents is not to make a particular kind of child.

Instead, our job is to provide a protected space of love, safety, and stability in which children of many unpredictable kinds can flourish. Our job is not to shape our children's minds. It's to let those minds explore all the possibilities that the world allows. Our job is not to tell children how to play. It's to give them the toys and pick the toys up again after the kids are done. We can't make children learn, but we can let them learn."

Okay. I think that shift in perspective from trying to shape a child into our vision of perfect to discovering, supporting, and celebrating the unique child in front of us makes all the difference in cultivating strong and connected lifelong relationships with our kids. That's the difference. You are going to be in relationship with your child far beyond their childhood, right?

ANNA: Yes. That's the hope anyway. And it really is such an apt analogy, and I think it helps us to step back a bit and actually just kind of see how it's playing out. We can think about how it felt in our childhood and what kind of relationship we want to have with our children beyond those expectations. What do we want that relationship to feel like? Something that compounds this tendency to control or have expectations is that we often come into parenting with these preconceived notions about what childhood is like. This could stem from our own childhood, which maybe we loved, or maybe what we bring is in reaction to our childhood, what we want to do differently. But either way, it's a reaction to, from the past, not a response to what is actually in front of us, the child and the family we have right now.

Sometimes we think our child will be like us. It goes back to how people are different. Our children are different. And if you have three kids, each one of them is their own unique person with their own way of being in the world. We don't want to hold this image we have in our head of them over top of the person that they actually are.

And this goes to ideas about family culture, too, which you'll hear, "We are an outdoor family," "We're a family of travelers," "We're a family of," whatever you finish that sentence with, it deserves a second look, because it's oh so very rare that an entire family wants to move through the world in the same way. Instead, we can embrace the idea that we are a family of individuals and together we support one another to live our best lives.

PAM: Yes, yes. I love that image. Supporting and celebrating each family member, especially children, as the unique individual that they are in this moment. We're not trying to mold them into an individual.

They are an individual right now, and that actually better fosters a family atmosphere of joy and harmony than, "Our family is," or, "Be nice to each other, you're family," all those phrases that just come rolling out of our mouths.

I also find that another common way that parents lump their children together and thereby undermine their individuality is by how they measure fair. The idea behind fairness is definitely an important one. To be fair is to be free from bias, is to not show favor for one child over another. But how do you measure fair? I find, and I remember, many families measure it based on quantity. And we strive for equality. We give all our kids the same number of gifts for holidays, or we spend the same amount of money on their birthdays, or we sign them up for the same number of rec activities. We can cling to this equality paradigm. But the scorekeeping can get so tiring. You just have to keep track of all this. And when you think about it, equality in what you give each child really isn't a helpful measure of fairness, because what each child actually needs, each individual, is likely different. And to see this individuality in action, it helps to move past that image you were talking about that we have conjured up in our minds of that perfect child.

No longer trying to cajole each of our kids into that mold with varying levels of success and instead just look clearly at the individual child in front of us and engage with that person. When we can do that, each child feels seen, loved, and accepted as part of the family, even if what that support and engagement looks like is wildly different for each child.

So, at any given time, maybe one child needs more of your attention because they're sick or they're injured while another is in the midst of a busy season with our favorite activity and need you to provide supplies for it or transportation and maybe a third is in a social season and wants your blessing to invite friends over regularly. So, you may be giving each child very different things that take varying amounts of time, effort, money, energy, all those pieces. But when their unique needs are being met, they each feel seen and secure and celebrated for who they are as a person.

ANNA: Gosh, I love that reminder that fair isn't the same as equal. We want to help each person in our lives pursue the things that they're interested in, and that can look, as you said, just wildly different.

People feel much more seen and loved by tailoring our engagement and our resources to what suits them and helps them along their unique path over what an equal share of something they may not even want is.

And I think it can be a really helpful framework to realize that what your child loves is who they are.

So, using the things we've been talking about to connect with your child, listen, be open, have the conversations, really lean to learn what they love and why. It may be that they love art or soccer or video games. Taking the time to understand and support their interests shows them that you see them and that you're celebrating the things that they love and in that, you're celebrating them.

And it's such an incredible gift to give the people in our lives that we love them without judgment. And I think it's so important, because I think so often for many of us, love had a judgment piece attached to it, and we can let that go. For many reasons we feel, I don't know, comfortable judging children it seems, how they spend their time, what they're doing, how they're doing it. And I think perhaps we feel like it's coming from a place of love. It's an attempt to give our best advice, but more often than not, it's so disconnecting and it harms the relationship. But that doesn't mean that we can't share the things that we've learned over the years, but with an understanding that those were our takeaways and theirs may be very different, and they may have to learn it all on their own.

I know we can wish to save them from some of that hard work, but it just doesn't work that way. I'm sure we can all think back to times that our parents thought they knew what was best for us and they wanted to save us from this problem that we were running headstrong into, but it just never landed well, and I actually believe it creates what we're fearing, because then our kids are less likely to come to us as they're figuring out things, because they're fearing our judgment or our direction, or that we're going to co-opt whatever it is they're doing.

If instead, we can stay connected and curious, we can act as that trusted advisor and a sounding board as they find the past that make the most sense to them.

PAM: Yes. It is so interesting, isn't it, how we feel more comfortable judging our children than other adults. And I think that ties back to that carpenter parenting style, right? Which I think for many parents is the adult-child relationship we know, because that's how we grew up. We compare the child to the blueprint, we judge how close they are to that ideal, and then we have to use control tactics at that point to make the adjustments that are needed to get them back on track. And absolutely not as starkly negative as that sounds right. We love our kids and we want what's best for them, but the real question is, who gets to define what is best?

As a carpenter-style parent, we want to define that, right? It's our blueprint, our vision of the best path from naive child to successful adult. They're our child. We want them to listen to us and learn from our mistakes so they don't have to go through similar challenges.

But, as you said, that's just not how human beings are wired to learn. And we differ from our children in many significant ways, right? And regardless of age, we all want to learn through our own experiences. Think about how we like to learn. We all want to explore the things that we find fascinating, and our children will feel more supported and cared for when they know that we have their backs, that we love them and celebrate who they are. They feel safer coming to us with questions and to process things that have happened, knowing they won't be judged or scorned, but that we'll do our best to help them figure things out for themselves. So, we're not there to tell them direction, but we are there to help them process and think things through to understand it for themselves. That's where the real learning is. When they see the context, they see the choices, they see how things unfolded.

Now definitely, we can share our experiences with them as information that they might find helpful. But we can do it without that expectation that they adopt it wholesale. Again, we're different people and we're all in different places in our lives, too. When we were at that age, what life was like at that age is different than what life at that age is like for them, too.

And my goodness, the lightness and the joy that comes with celebrating the amazing child that you love is priceless versus the weight we carry when we're always judging and trying to get them back on our track. Just night and day.

ANNA: Absolutely. And we can take that weight off of ourselves and off of our children, and it frees up energy to create these amazing relationships that last throughout our lives. And I think the other piece that can't really be overstated, too, is that when we're coming in with that judgment and control, we're really short-circuiting the learning. We're really not allowing them to learn about themselves.

So, if they love something intensely, but we're saying, "Hmm, that doesn't align, that's not as academic as we want it, that's not as sporty as we want it," whatever the thing is, then they're left doubting what they're loving, what they're thinking. And so, this process of them discovering who they really are is just being tamped down and short-circuited by us, which then just spills into their adulthood.

PAM: And what they're learning is about us. They're learning that sports is important to us, that we love hockey or we love soccer or we think that's important. And back to our last episode, the self-awareness piece. We are not helping them gain any self-awareness when what they're learning is about us and what our priorities are.

They're not having a chance to explore the things that they like and what their priorities are, and to have those experiences. There's nothing wrong with an experience that they afterwards say, "I don't want to have that experience again," That's learning. 

ANNA: Right! And it just makes for a richer experience. Again, we've talked about in the last episodes, when we go tunnel vision with this outcome or solution, we're missing the richness, we're missing the tapestry that comes from all the uniqueness of the people around us. And so, I'm excited that we're talking about just celebrating our child and all the people around us really. This is just about celebrating the people around us and their uniqueness.

So, a few questions to consider for this week. In what ways have you celebrated your child for the person they are? What does your child love? How do you see it as a part of who they are?

I think that's a big one, because sometimes it's hard. The things they love, maybe we don't understand it. Why are they so fascinated by that? Why do they keep wanting to go down that one path? But really sink in with that.

PAM: Those are great questions for us to ask ourselves, as we're talking about, peeling back those layers. If we don't understand, that doesn't mean immediately stop them. It means, oh, why? Why is this very interesting to them? And yeah. It's amazing what you discover when you start peeling back those layers for yourself.

ANNA: And just lean in, lean into that excitement from them and just bask in that piece and you'll learn a lot. And then, what visions did you hold of having children? How has that vision helped or harmed your relationship with your actual children?

PAM: There's a distinction.

ANNA: There's a distinction for sure. The children in our head are not always the children we have in front of us. Take some time this week to think about your family and how you are all individuals. See and celebrate the differences. And again, this is for every member, adults and kids alike. How different does that feel to think we're all celebrating the uniqueness? They're in it together supporting one another. It's just such a different feeling.

PAM: Yeah. And I think that is a place where we can all connect, too, as we're talking about connection, is that we can each find the things that light us up and we can connect through the fact that they light us up. We can celebrate that joy, that fun. "Oh, you love that so much. I love this just as much. It's so fun when we get a chance to do it and we don't want to do anything else," and conversations can go there. Connecting with our kids or our partner doesn't mean that we have to love the thing they love as much as they do, but it means seeing how much they love that, celebrating how much they love that, supporting them to do it as much as they would like to be able to do it, all those pieces.

It really is when you can peel that apart. I don't have to love it as much. I can celebrate that they love it that much. And then I can think about the things that I love that much. It's just so rich. The world opens up for the family as well.

ANNA: And I think what you'll notice very quickly is how people respond to that, how they open up more and tell you more and feel more trust and feel more seen and heard. So quickly, that will happen when you start to celebrate the things that they love and really take an interest. Again, that doesn't mean you have to jump in and join them, but just taking an interest, whether it's a video game or a sports thing, or a music thing or an academic thing, whatever it is, just giving that time for that connection is just so rich and important.

PAM: Yay! 

ANNA: All right. Thank you so much for listening, and we hope to see you next time. Take care.

PAM: Bye!

This week, we're back to our Conflicts series and exploring a really useful tool: the acronym HALT, which stands for Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired. So often when we find ourselves in conflict, there are underlying contextual issues that intensify the situation. When we can get curious about what's going on for ourselves and the people around us, we can find ways to address the discomfort so that it's easier to be creative and find solutions to the real problems underneath.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. Over the next week or two, just take some time to notice what your body feels at random times. Are you feeling hungry, angry, lonely, or tired? Each of these can feel different for different people—what do they feel like for you? Consider how they feel both physically and emotionally.

2. Think about a recent conflict. Might any of the HALT factors been at play? For you? For them?

3. Think about a way to remind yourself to consider HALT when you’re sensing an edge to yourself or to someone around you. Maybe a reminder on your phone wallpaper? Or a note on the fridge? Or a representative object you keep in your pocket? Something that helps you keep the idea top of mind until it becomes a habit to check in to see if anyone’s hungry, angry, lonely or tired.

PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We are so happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

So, if you're new to the podcast, we do encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes, particularly the first 14. We started with some foundational relationship ideas and have really enjoyed how they've been building on one another, so it would be great to get that foundation. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and review wherever you listen, because that definitely helps new people find us.

Today's episode is part of our Conflict series. And actually, starting with this episode, we're embarking on a four-episode mini-series, a series within a series, diving into different aspects of self-awareness, which is so valuable for helping us navigate conflict with more grace, compassion, and effectiveness. "And how?" you ask? Well, when there's conflict, it really helps to be able to communicate to the other person what we're upset about, why, and what we feel from our perspective might help resolve the conflict. So, those underlying needs. And to do that, we need to have a pretty good handle on what's going on for us. So, that's what we're exploring with this series. We need to understand ourselves well enough to recognize and identify the feelings that are being sparked by the conflict.

Maybe it's anger, frustration, disappointment, embarrassment, fear, and so on. There are so many different emotions that can be sparked. And then to dig into why those particular feelings are provoked by this particular situation. So, making connections about understanding ourselves better.

Also to notice any solutions we might be feeling attached to before we hear what the other person wants to share. If we jump to our solution ahead of time, that can also make the conflict more challenging to navigate. And also to recognize and acknowledge the story that we're telling ourselves about the other person. So, if we aren't able to do this kind of internal processing, we aren't likely to have enough information about our thoughts and feelings to navigate the conflict more productively, by which I mean with enough depth to actually learn more about each other and find a path forward that we're both comfortable with. So, yes, I am looking forward to this series very much.

To start us off with this first week, we want to look at the immediate circumstances that surround a conflict. And to do that, I know we've both found HALT to be a really useful tool to help bring more awareness into play. And HALT stands for Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired, and reminds us to take a moment to tune into our bodies. It is surprising how often one or more of these are at play exacerbating a conflict, which means it's also valuable to consider HALT from the other person's perspective.

So, let's start with H for hungry. When we're hungry, we're often not able to think as clearly as usual, right? We feel irritable. We tend to snap at people, and we often aren't able to give space for listening or for being creative and coming up with solutions. We just want this conflict to be over already and even better if it goes our way. So, thankfully this one is relatively easy to take care of once we notice it's at play. We can share what's up. We can grab a quick snack. Maybe we say something like, "Let's continue our conversation in the kitchen. I'm feeling hungry and need some food so I can give you my full attention." Or a glass of water or a cup of tea.

It's a quick acknowledgement of what you're feeling and how you want to address it. And interestingly, as we mentioned, playing with these things, I've noticed that continuing our conversation while I'm prepping food or grabbing a drink sometimes helps bring the confrontational energy down a bit.

Because we're not literally face-to-face anymore. There's just more space for us to use and take up.

ANNA: Yes. This is definitely something I have to watch out for. I can move from everything's fine to hangry really fast. And while it's so important to tune in to what's happening in our bodies, like you're talking about, it is helpful to keep HALT in mind for the people around us, too. If I feel things starting to get a little bit of an edge or something, just that off energy, a quick check-in about where are we in the day, is dinner running late? Did this person skip lunch? Is it mid-morning and we haven't had breakfast? Just checking in to see if hunger could be a factor in the edge that I'm hearing.

And sometimes it's fine to point that out, right? And sometimes it won't help at all. So, definitely know your audience and know how far down I am on the hungry/hangry scale before you tell me that I need to eat. But if I think it's a factor, I will just move myself and the discussion to the kitchen, like you're talking about, grabbing a snack for myself, offering a snack to them. I might bring snacks to my partner or child wherever they happen to be, if they don't move with me but I'm still sensing this kind of energy that's escalating, especially if we're talking about siblings.

It was just such a common theme with our girls when they were young that I told David he was going to need to tattoo, "FEED AT THREE" on his arm to remember that that preemptive snack made all the difference in how the rest of the day played out. He already knew to make sure that I was eating at regular intervals, but it was just this reminder that yes, something that seems like this huge conflict just completely dissolves when we have a snack and just hang out and start eating something.

PAM: Yeah. I love that and just a fun joke that also helps it stick. That can be referred back to. But noticing those kinds of patterns is so very valuable in understanding not only each other, but the context and how I can go from everything's fine to horribly hangry so fast, to be able to see that the context matters. It's not just about the thing that you're in conflict about, right? Context really, really matters.

So, speaking of that, next up is A, which reminds us to check in with ourselves to notice if we're feeling angry. So, when we're angry about something, that also tends to seep into our interactions with others, even if they're completely unrelated. And that makes sense, doesn't it?

If, say, we had a conflict at work that day, we may well be preoccupied, playing it over and over in our heads, even after we get home. And that keeps us steeped in those emotions. Anger simmering just below the surface and ready to lash out at the slightest provocation.

And that said, sometimes I don't actually realize that I'm feeling angry. And at those times, what I notice first is often that I just have a short fuse. And that's my clue to take a moment to dig in. To go through HALT and see what resonates. And that's when I may realize I'm angry about something.

Maybe someone made a comment to me earlier in the day and I thought I'd just brushed it off. It rolled off my back, but I find that it's still simmering there in the background. So, once I'm aware of it, I find it's just a bit easier to now hold it apart from my current interactions so that they don't escalate, or at least I can let my family know that my frustration or my sharp words aren't about them. They're about what's going on with me and something that I am processing.

But now what I can do is intentionally process that anger and process that situation, moving through it in ways that work for me rather than having it just stewing away in the background. 

ANNA: And being more intentional about how you're interacting with the people around you that may have absolutely nothing to do with what's sparking that anger. And so often anger is the presenting emotion, but there's so much more behind it. And recognizing and sharing as much as we can with the people around us just helps them to understand and support us. So, I love that piece.

And here again, if I'm sensing an edge in a person I'm with and hunger doesn't make sense, I want to understand if something else is going on with them. And I might ask, "Hey, how was work or school today?" Or maybe I knew they had a call earlier and ask about that, or ask about a project I know they were working on that was causing some frustration. So often, people just need to feel heard and validated, and then they're actually able to move through whatever those stuck feelings are that, like you said, maybe they don't even recognize in that moment that's creating this sharp edge in their tone or whatever is going on.

And so, my job is to not take it personally, to be curious and interested, to be the safe place so those feelings can be addressed and not fester when they can then come out in these ways that are more hurtful and sharp. And even if that ship has sailed and somebody snaps, I can recognize that that's about them and not me and choose to lean in and be kind like we talked about last time.

PAM: Exactly, exactly. Making that choice to be kind in the moment and not taking it personally. It makes all the difference, it really does, in moving through that.

So, next we've got L. And feeling lonely can stem from feeling disconnected from the people around us, particularly family, because at first it's like, how can I be lonely? I've got all these people around me. We're stuck in this house. But when that happens, I can get cranky, sniping at my loved ones, and paradoxically pushing them even further away. So, I'm creating more miscommunication and more disconnection. So, noticing my crankiness. So, we're back to that self-awareness, right? Something's got to trigger me to like, oh, what's going on? Then I can pull out HALT and hopefully soon realize that I'm actually feeling lonely. No, I am not hungry. I ate half an hour ago. And no, I don't feel angry or mad at anything in particular. Ah, let's check in with loneliness. So, now that I'm aware of that underlying feeling, I can be more considerate of myself.

And for me, that means instead of staying on that surface level and pushing people away with my cranky words and actions, I can make choices from that deeper level of awareness that I'm feeling lonely right now. So, I can more intentionally reach out to others to connect. I can invite a partner or a child to join me in an activity that we enjoy together. I can focus on cultivating laughter, connection, and joy to fill up my cup. And if that feels too hard right now, if we're not able to muster that energy to think of something and go out and invite someone, we can absolutely join them in whatever they're up to. Because right now, my connection with them is the priority, not the activity itself.

So, you know what? If they're doing something that they're choosing to do and they're having fun with it, I can join them and just quietly soak in that joy, connect with them through their joy in what they're doing. Even if the activity isn't something that I super love or would choose to do on my own, that's not the point. I'm not looking for an activity. I'm looking for connection. I'm feeling a bit lonely and disconnected, so I can join them in whatever they're doing and enjoying and use that to connect with them again. To get some joy just by steeping in the joy that they're having. 

ANNA: I love that. When we see this crankiness in a person that we love, we can think about our connection and at least just bring it to mind. Have we had time together recently? Are they feeling connected to us? We normally are and just sometimes we notice the day has slipped away from us, or we haven't had our normal check-in or it's been a busy few days even. And so, all of that happens. And in a few weeks, we'll be talking about bids for connection. And sometimes those bids are positive attempts at engagement, but sometimes it's just not as clear. So, checking in and noticing if we've been prioritizing our connection. It can be, has our child gotten time with their friends? It may not be with us directly, but just being aware that this could be at play with a foul mood is so helpful, because sometimes we or the person doesn't even realize that's at play and a bit of connection to fill their cup just totally turns things around.

But this is one of those, like you were talking about with anger, I think sometimes we don't notice it. Because, like you said, we're around people and we've got people at home and maybe we even were at school or we were with a bunch of people. But depending on our personalities and how we fill our cups of connection, we really may not have had that quality time or deeper conversations or one-on-one that maybe we were looking for. And so, it really helps to keep those things in mind for ourselves and for those people that we love around us. And again, it's so much about not taking it personally, so that we can be the support we want to be for the people in our lives.

PAM: Yes. Yes. And we keep mentioning that in multiple episodes because it is key not taking things personally because people's behavior is about them. It's giving us messages and clues about them, and conversely, our behavior is about us. So, even if we try to blame it on others, at first, like, "You're making me angry," it really is about our reaction to whatever is going on.

So, lastly, T. When we're tired, I think it can be similar to being hungry, at least for me. It's hard to think clearly. We may feel frustrated and snippy. It's hard to listen to and empathize with others, but here the solution is just different. Rest rather than food. So, sometimes we end up tired and irritable pretty quickly, having ignored, pushed through, or not even noticed earlier signals that our body was trying to send us. So, letting others know you're feeling tired and cranky is important. It's valuable. And again, helping them understand why you may be behaving a bit out of character.

Communication, information, that it's about you and your tired state. It is not about them, and that can help stop conflicts from bubbling up that serve no purpose other than damaging the connection and the relationship. And even better, I found, this was my experience when I started playing with it, when the other person knows what's up, they may well help you settle in for a nap or into bed for the night. When loved ones learn your frustration or your saltiness isn't a judgment of them personally, but has an unrelated reason, you're tired, they can quickly become understanding and helpful.

So, we say we're tired, but we're pushing through to get one more chore done before we drop for the night. And maybe, maybe just one more, but when someone else says, "Hey, that can wait till tomorrow. You're so tired. Why don't you just go to bed?" That can help knock us out of the tunnel vision of, I must do this, that I've gotten stuck in, and remind me to take better care of myself. And I have found myself at times like, "Oh, I can't let anyone know that I'm tired, because they'll tell me to stop." 

ANNA: You're trying to trick them, but it's not working.

PAM: I know, I know. That trick just doesn't work. But I think our society undervalues rest in service to productivity so much and that is the tunnel vision that I get stuck in and it's easier to get stuck when I'm tired and when I'm off. 

ANNA: I do think this is one that can sneak up on us. It’s so common to push through being tired. There's just this expectation of it almost. And we may not even realize how much it impacts us, but it often does. Checking in with someone about how they slept. Do we need a break, a nap? Or just some quiet rest time can help. The 20-minute power nap can be a nice reset. And if rest isn't possible in the moment, just saying, "Hey, let's talk about this tomorrow. Let's put this thing aside," just helps us move from that kind of tired, grumpy, that can then go into a full on conflict if we push through those early signs. Remember that there's plenty of time and not pushing a sense of urgency when we can see someone is not feeling their best. That just leaves space for us to come back fresh and in a more creative mindset, which will make moving through a disagreement so much easier.

So, again, because we're talking so much about this context, we don't want to take something that's so contextual, like being tired or hungry and then making that define a relationship, because we're now having fights about something when really it's this contextual issue. So, it just makes it so much easier to do these little check-ins.

PAM: Yeah, absolutely. And I think once we start looking at this, it can be surprising to discover how often conflict erupts or gets so much worse just because one of us is out of sorts if we're hungry, angry, lonely, tired. We don't have our usual well of patience, our ability to listen attentively or even the capacity to think creatively, either one of us when we are in that state. When we can recognize that our reactions or their reactions seem out of proportion, that can be just a nice clue that we can check in with HALT and focus on addressing any of those underlying needs rather than getting defensive and focusing on that surface conflict.

It is so easy to just feel defensive and like, nope. And you stay stuck there. It's like we talked about in the last episode, getting to those underlying needs. I've found so fascinating too, is that there is a good chance that once we've met that underlying need, the original conflict actually just kind of melts away right, back to being kind, not right.

When we're being kind and we're looking at these underlying needs, oh my gosh, the right/wrong thing just even melts away in the first place. It's not something you need to go back to.

ANNA: Right. Oh my goodness. Yeah. HALT has resolved so many conflicts for me over the years, and there's just such value in bringing myself back into my body so that I am finding the root cause instead of blaming the person in front of me or thinking that there's something wrong with the relationship as a whole.

And like you said, we often find that once we address whatever the HALT issue is, it just melts away. Like it just suddenly, whatever the edge was about that particular issue, we're able to be creative again. We're able to find a solution. We're able to look at those needs. We are so influenced by what's happening in our body and then these other contextual issues. I just want to always look there first before going too far down and back and forth about something that just might fade away if we had some more food and a little bit of sleep and giving some grace to those around us. It's a kindness to them and also to ourselves. It's one more way we learn about one another and learn to navigate life together.

So much of this happens by slowing things down, giving space to look around and tune in before engaging into a conflict. We can address the contextual issues and if the original problem's still there, okay, we can approach it then with curiosity, asking questions, expressing our feelings and needs, but it's going to be a lot more intentional and less charged if we work through those contextual bits first.

PAM: Exactly. Yeah. That's why we wanted to start with this one because yeah, it is in the moment. How are we in this moment? So, as you contemplate HALT as a tool for increasing self-awareness, particularly when it comes to navigating conflict, like self-awareness is good, but it is extra helpful when we're navigating conflict, here are some questions that might be helpful for you to consider.

So, number one, over the next week or two, just take some time to notice what your body feels at random times. Are you feeling hungry, angry, lonely, tired? Get used to just asking yourself those questions, whether or not there's conflict going around, because each of these can feel different for different people. So, discover what they feel like for you. It'll be easier over time for you to more quickly identify that. And consider how they feel both physically and emotionally. Because there can be physical aspects as well.

Question two, think about a recent conflict. Might any of the HALT factors been at play? Think about it for yourself and think about it for the other person.

Number three, think about a way to remind yourself to consider HALT when you're sensing an edge to yourself or to someone around you or between other people. I have done all of these over the years, so maybe a reminder on your phone wallpaper, so that you just see that when you turn on your phone and it's like, oh yeah, HALT. What about that? Or maybe it's a note on the fridge. Just the word HALT. Doesn't need to be a big message. Or a representative object that you keep in your pocket. Just something that helps you keep the idea top of mind until it becomes a habit to check in, to see if you or anyone else are hungry, angry, lonely, or tired.

Thank you so much for listening and we will see you next time. Bye!

This week, we're expanding our Conflicts series by diving into a favorite mantra of Anna's, "Be kind, not right." When we find ourselves in a disagreement, we usually feel pretty strongly that we have the right answer or view of the situation and we'll continue to defend and explain to convince the other person they're wrong.

But this approach will never improve a relationship and it can do a lot of damage. It's valuable to consider whether it feels better to let go of some of that defensiveness in order to learn more about the situation.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

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1. How would choosing "Be kind, not right" change exchanges with the people you love? 

2. Do you feel resistance to setting aside your position? What does it feel like to play with that idea? 

3. Think of a recent conflict you were engaged in. What was the underlying need you were trying to meet with the perspective or path you were arguing for? Can you think of another way you could have met that need? Might it have been met with less resistance?

ANNA: Hi and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We're so happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas and just really have enjoyed how all that's coming together. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating or review wherever you listen. That definitely helps new people find us.

So, on today's episode, it's part of our relationship series, and we're going to be talking about a mantra that has served me well over many years, and that is, "Be kind, not right." When we find ourselves in a disagreement, we usually feel pretty strongly that we have the right answer, approach, or view of the situation. And we spend the discussion or conflict trying to convince the other person that they are wrong. We will defend and explain and pick apart their position. And it doesn't mean that we're holding any malice necessarily. We just truly believe we're right and that they need to understand that now.

But here's the thing. This approach will never improve a relationship and it can do a lot of damage. We talked about listening a few weeks ago and how listening helps us learn and understand our loved ones and where they're coming from, but sometimes it's hard, because we really know we're right and we really want them to understand.

And so, one of the quick tools that has helped me when I'm stuck there is to think of this person that I love and realize that I would rather be kind than right. I can be right all day long, but if it disconnects me from the people that I love, what have I really gained? I have to ask myself if I really want to just sit here alone in my rightness.

PAM: That's such a great way to describe it, because it conjures up such a vivid image in my mind. I'm like sitting on a stool by myself off to the side. My body's upright and tense. I'm ready to ward off any detractors, just sure that my take on the situation is the right one, and I'm just waiting for them to come around.

And as I just kind of sit there, it does feel disconnected and lonely in some ways. So, I think contemplating what I'm getting out of standing resolutely in my rightness is so helpful when I'm starting to feel stuck in a conflict, when I notice that I'm repeating myself, trying to convince them I'm right, yet having nothing new to add to the conversation.

So, at that point, I can start by just releasing the question of who's right or wrong for now. I can always come back to that later if need be. But for now, I can ask myself some questions. So, what do things look like? What's the energy in the room? How are the people involved feeling, including me? What's my connection with this person that I love feeling like right now? What are my priorities in this moment and why?

ANNA: Exactly. And this can be a time for being open and curious, which you've heard us talk about so much. Because being open, asking ourselves questions, looking at the situation with a wider angle lens, can help us see things that we've been missing. And it's like you were saying, you weren't bringing any new information. We're just kind of hammering that same thing.

So, we want to open it up a little bit. I think it's important, or at least it is to me, to remember that I don't have to give up my idea of what I think is right. I can hold on to that and still choose to react to the person in front of me with kindness.

What I've found is that, when I'm able to do that, I actually learn a lot about what's going on for the person. And we are typically able to actually remain connected while we navigate the disagreement, because we don't get locked into this attack and defend mode. We're really trying to understand each other better. And remaining connected is the key to smoothly navigating conflict. Be kind, not right, is just a helpful reminder that my priority is to be in relationship with this person.

When I can keep that front and center, it's easier to find the softness. It's easier to remember what I love about this person and why I want to set aside my ideas in the moment to connect and hear them. And again, that knowing that I don't have to give up my belief about the right, because that can take me a few minutes, it's really just more about learning more.

PAM: Yes. Yes. I really think that can be a big stumbling block. I've experienced that as a big stumbling block. The idea that being kind and compassionate with the other person during a conflict, like the idea that that means we're implicitly admitting we're wrong. When I first came across that, it was a very novel idea, that my goal when navigating conflict doesn't need to be to win, to get the other person to concede defeat. Instead, it can be about remembering that my ultimate goal is to prioritize my close relationships, recognizing that the connected and respectful long-term relationship that I want to have with this person is of higher value than the perception of winning or losing this particular battle.

Absolutely, that said, it is not an easy shift to make, and part of that is definitely because the idea of winning is so tightly wrapped up in our culture as a measure of our value as a person. A win is another tick box and another tick box, and the more you have, the better person you are. But eventually, I managed to give myself permission and some space to play with it.

And what I learned through that experience really was pretty amazing for me. As you mentioned, when I didn't lock myself into that attack/defend mode of communication back and forth, I instead was asking questions, trying to understand their perspective. I just learned so much more about them, about how they tick, and what they value, and why, and just how their day is going in this moment.

ANNA: Yes. And it works in all kinds of situations. Just to give a silly example, let's say your partner was supposed to make a phone call to get the car fixed. You both agreed that they would make the call that day. Well, the next day arrives, the call wasn't made, and now they're changing their story.

Well, they didn't know or they thought it was later. You're hearing some excuses. And so, we can have an argument about the original agreement or we can extend kindness and say, "Okay, well I guess we had a misunderstanding. No worries. Do you want to call now or should I?" Nothing is gained by me trying to convince them that I was right about the plan and point out how they fell short. It just makes them feel bad. It disconnects us and we still haven't made the call.

And so, when we catch anyone in a story, be it a child or a partner, there's always something behind that. It's possible that they feel unsafe telling us the truth. That is always something I want to examine.

Why would someone feel that way? Have I been reacting in anger? Do they feel like they'll get in trouble? That can be a trigger for a lot of people. But that's not an environment I want to cultivate in my home or in my close relationships, because we all make mistakes. We all forget to do things.

We all have tough days.

But when I'm able to show up and be kind and listen, I learn more about what's going on with them. Maybe they were overwhelmed that day. Maybe something happened at work or school that put them in a bad space. I would much rather know that and be there as a support, than to prove I was right and leave us both feeling bad.

And so, this can also apply to just differences in beliefs. We'll often be faced with people we love seeing situations differently. It could be political in nature, or just the way we want to handle a situation. There's no one definitive answer for all the things. There's always nuances. And even if I feel very secure in my belief, which I often do, I will leave room for others to have their own.

Because, again, if we can remain open and curious, we will learn something. It may not change our mind, but we will have a much better understanding of the other side of the argument, and that's just always worth something. This is especially true of people we want to be in loving relationships with. And what I've found is that when I choose kindness over being right, we leave the door open for both parties to learn more about each other.

PAM: Yes. Choosing kindness and curiosity really helps me better understand the underlying needs that they're trying to meet. You know, why do they feel that they need to make up the story? I don't need to argue about the excuse or win the excuse. But oh my gosh. To ask questions about it, to get curious about that, and to even ask myself questions like, why is this important to me? Why is it important to them? How does their stance in this conflict or even conversation meet that underlying need for them?

Because once we can get to talking about our needs rather than the surface expression of them that we're arguing about in this moment, we have the opportunity to find a path forward through the conflict that actually works better for both of us, better than the original solutions that we had each proposed and were arguing back and forth about.

When we move away from the focus of the conflict being determining who is right and who is wrong, and instead choose to navigate the challenges and the conflicts through the bigger picture lens of kindness, I just find that it makes such a huge difference in our days. It's like, we're together. Right?

ANNA: It's such a huge difference. That feeling of, we're in this together facing the challenges as a team. I don't want to pit myself against my partner or my children. I want to keep things open and encourage conversations and learning. And what I've found is, when we're working together, we find the ways to meet everyone's needs much faster than if we're all in this very defensive stance of trying to explain our needs and defend our needs. I don't want that idea that we have to defend our needs to be a part of the equation with the people that I love. It's like, no, we'll figure this out together.

PAM: Oh, you know what I think is really interesting too, is when I'm coming into those complex conversations? It's the the fact that so often, even with myself when I proposed a solution or like, this is what we need to do, and I'm trying to convince them that this is the right way, I haven't really thought about what the needs are underneath it. I have already jumped to the solution.

So, that's why taking those couple of minutes to just pause for a second, and think, why is that the only solution that I see? Opening up to other possibilities. And the same with somebody else. When they are saying, ah, I need to do this and I need to do this now, that's not literally the need. So often, that is the path forward or the solution to the need. So, let's dig a little bit deeper, whether you can do that in conversation with them or just yourself thinking about it like, oh, why is this so important to them? Why is this the direction they need to take now?

And when we can peel back a layer on it and discover what's underneath and just start pointing the conversation in that direction, that's where all the rich stuff happens and the learning that we're talking about.

ANNA: Right. And just one more quick thing about that, because so often, that is so important to catch, am I jumping to solutions or am I really expressing my need? Because there's a big difference. And the problem with jumping to solutions is we're jumping to the best solution for us. And what happens when we're dealing with other people is, that may not be the best solution for them in that they might want to move through that in a very different way.

And so, when we get so locked in on our one solution, this being right, we just lose sight of so much, and it really can damage the relationship. And this is in business practices. This is in all areas where we just need to leave that open, express our needs, so that we can then meet the needs as opposed to barreling in with the best solution.

PAM: Exactly! And when we can do that, get to that layer underneath, it's not admitting we're wrong. Because it's like, oh, there are other possibilities to meet this need that can mesh with the other people who are involved. So, right back to that, be kind, not right. Doesn't mean you're wrong. It just might be the, the proposed solution or the way you end up going looks different than what you first thought.

ANNA: Exactly. It may not work for everybody. And we can still get our needs met. Anyway, it's super fascinating. I think it'll be fun for everybody to kind of think about this one for a while. So, we'll dig into just a few quick questions for this week.

The first one is, how would choosing "Be kind, not right" change exchanges with the people you love? I think it's just really helpful to look at some of those exchanges. And do you feel resistance to setting aside your position and what does it feel like to play with that idea? Because you've heard that both Pam and I have had to do a little bit of work to get to that place of setting aside our position, but I think that key that we talked about there at the end, getting to your need, because your need is real and valid, it's just don't jump to that solution, because the position is really that solution that you're trying to push on someone else. And so, I think that'll be interesting to just, how does it play with letting go of that one right way and settling into communicating about needs and hearing about other people's needs?

PAM: And I think thinking about it as play, like, I'm going to play with this, because if we try to tell ourselves to do it different, it's also telling ourselves we were wrong and bringing up that whole resistance to it. But it's like, you know what? Let me explore it, play with it, and compare. I have lots of experience with handling it this way, let's handle it a little bit differently and just see which actually feels better.

ANNA: Exactly. Okay, last question is to think of a recent conflict you were engaged in. What was the underlying need you were trying to meet with the prospective path or the path that you were arguing for? And can you think of another way you could have met that need? And might it have been met with less resistance?

So again, that peeling back to, am I communicating about my needs or am I communicating a solution that's kind of bulldozing through other people? I think that'll be a really interesting nuance to tease apart as we think about conflicts and more challenged conversation. This doesn't have to be big, hard things. This can happen in a lot of places in our life, but, how's that coming across to the people around us?

PAM: Yes. And I think here is another great place to just think about that productivity lens too and the urgency thing that we've talked about, too. I need to solve this fast. I need this need met immediately. We need to do this quick. So, it can be a bit hard at the beginning to just leave some space for these more creative, different ideas. This is one way it works. Boom. No, but hey, maybe there's other path. And as you said, it might be met with less resistance from the other people who are involved.

ANNA: Right, and I think what you'll find is that, it's much easier for people to validate and understand and solve for our need than to validate our proposed solution that may be impinging upon them. So, I think what you'll see is just the conversations are so different when we have that focus.

So, anyway, excited as always to talk about all the things. So, thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Take care.

PAM: Bye-bye.

This week, we're sharing the first episode in our Parenting series, in which we'll explore our relationships with our children. We are excited to bring this new lens into our conversation! We decided to start this series with school, because it's a significant part of many children's lives. Yet, we don't need to bring school home. When it comes to our relationships with our children, life can be so much bigger than school. We can choose to put it in perspective as just one aspect of their lives.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. How does it feel to contemplate prioritizing your child, and your relationship with your child, over their school grades?

2. What was your school experience growing up? Considering what we talked about in episode 3 about how people are different—and children are people too—how is your child different from you as a child? How is their school experience different from yours?

3. What are some aspects of school that you might consider not enforcing at home? Where might you consider your child’s needs more important than the school’s expectations? What might that look like?

4. Does your story of your child change when you don’t include how they perform at school? If so, how? Which feels better? Which feels more true to the person your child is?

PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We're happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas in the first 14 episodes and have really enjoyed how they're building on one another.

If you've already been enjoying the podcast, we would love it if you could share it with someone in your life that you think might benefit from contemplating these ideas. It's super easy to share. Just send them to podcast.show/living joyfully. They can listen and read the show notes right there, or they can pick their favorite podcast player and it'll take them to the show. So, thank you so much for helping us spread the word.

And this is our first episode in our parenting series in which we'll explore our relationships with our children. And I am really excited to bring this lens into our conversation. Now, we decided to start the conversation in this series with school because it's a significant part of most children's lives. Yet, spoiler alert, we don't need to bring school home.

When it comes to our relationships with our children, life is so much bigger than school. That said, it can be hard to remember that in the thick of things while you're figuring out the day-to-day logistics of getting kids to and from school, of packing lunches, of finishing homework, of getting paperwork signed. But it's true.

When we can take a moment to release the artificial urgency that's often generated by those schedules (and check out episode eight, There's Plenty of Time, if that is feeling hard) it can be invigorating to remember that life is so much more than that. Our relationships with our children are bigger than navigating their school attendance. School often looms large in our lives, but we can choose to put it in perspective. We can choose to give our relationships with our children priority.

We have evenings and weekends at our disposal where we can choose to give priority to connecting with our kids, to engaging with them, and having fun together. Because when we pull up to that bigger picture, our relationships with our children will last for our lifetime, whereas the compulsory school years are only a dozen or so years of that. If we prioritize school over our relationships with them during childhood, though, what shape will our relationships with them be in the many decades still to come?

ANNA: Yes. It's really so empowering to step back a bit and realize that we can absolutely prioritize the relationship with our child, even in the context of school. And that said, it does have a way of creeping into all the aspects of life. So, I think it really will be fun to step back a bit and be really intentional about the choices we're making and put it through that priority lens that we talked about way back in episode one. Keeping that lens handy as we navigate things that feel like have-tos helps us take ownership for our choices and act with clear intention.

PAM: Absolutely. Yeah. Just going back to what our priorities are, what our whys are, that can just be so helpful to bring everything into context.

So, now that we have put the school years themselves into a clearer perspective against the lifelong relationship that we're going to have with our children, let's look more closely at your child right now. Because your child is so much more than their grades. You know them in a much bigger sense than the school does, than their teacher does. You see them in different situations doing different things. You see the things they love to do, because you're with them when they have the chance to do them, and how they almost effortlessly learn when they're engaged in those activities.

You see them grow and change over years, a perspective that their teachers just don't have. You can help your child feel seen and heard and valued for who they are as a whole person. School is just one aspect of their lives.

And you can see things through your children's eyes. You can see all the learning they're doing beyond the school curriculum and their official grades. You can see them using what they're learning day-to-day in their conversations, in their activities, in their skill development. Those are more meaningful expressions of learning in the bigger picture than grades on tests. And yes, absolutely, grades have value when it comes to college applications and things. Yet the relentless judgment of grades as a reflection of the child's value as a person over those school years can be so harmful.

ANNA: So harmful. There was a thread I read recently on Instagram where adults were talking about their memories of school and it was so intense to read as people talked about how those years felt to them. And it was interesting, because it was a mix of people. Some had excelled at school and had done really well, others had given up on it, but all of them were impacted in ways that have stuck with them and have required some unpacking over subsequent decades. And I was like, wow. It was hard to read.

I think many of the negative aspects can be mitigated by connected relationships in the family, though, (and I think that's why we wanted to talk about it) by parents seeing the child as a whole honoring what they love, especially if it falls outside of what's valued at school.

When I work with teens and families, they're coming to me because things are getting pretty dire, and so often, it boils down to the teen not feeling seen, heard, or understood. The pressure, the weight that's being carried, is massive for these kids. And validation and understanding around that works wonders.

Many of the parents have bought fully into the importance of grades and performing in a way that prioritizes school performance above all else. But when you're faced with your child's mental health suffering, it casts it in a very different light. You start to see the bigger picture and realize their mental health is actually the most important thing to you and for them.

And, here we go again. There's plenty of time. There's not one path to success and happiness. As much as school tells us that they have the right path and the answer to all the questions, they don't. It's not one size fits all, even for attending college and pursuing more traditional paths. More and more colleges are valuing different paths and students who are engaged in the world pursuing passions.

But most of all, we want our teens to feel strong, confident, and connected. Focusing back on the relationship to really know your whole child, what they love, what weight they're carrying, what brings connection to the teen years that many people feel is impossible. It isn't. It's there for us if we move beyond acting as the school's enforcer and instead prioritize our relationship and partnering together.

The teen years are pretty amazing, and while that can be surprising to some people, they really can be when you focus on the relationships and seeing the amazing person in front of you, hearing them, understanding them, partnering with them.

PAM: Yes, yes, yes. I will say the teen years can definitely be amazing. So, as we start playing with our thoughts in this direction, another aspect that I want to touch on is that school is a choice. So, for example, you may not want to homeschool your children, yet remembering that it's a valid option reminds us that sending our kids to school is a choice, certainly throughout most of the world. And that can feel so empowering.

Like, we're not doing anything differently, but the minute we remember this is a choice. The shift! The energetic shift that we can feel. We can choose how our family engages with the educational system in so many ways beyond just the compulsory attendance aspect.

So, one thing to be aware of is that starting to think about school as a choice may well bring up our own school experiences, as you were mentioning, Anna, and we can carry the impact of our experiences for many years. So, maybe we felt very controlled, like we needed to submit to the system's authority. Maybe we acquiesced, maybe we fought it, and maybe those feelings all come flooding back as soon as we step into a school, even as a parent. We instinctively feel we need to do what the teacher tells us. But no. We're adults. It is definitely worth the effort to process our experiences growing up so we better understand them and better understand ourselves.

So, while our school experiences can inform our choices, they needn't spill over into our current interactions. Recognizing our power doesn't mean that we need to be confrontational or argumentative with teachers or administrators. It does mean that we don't need to thoughtlessly take on whatever expectations they try to throw our way. We get to choose. We can prioritize our relationships with our children. We can prioritize them, as people, and that can make a world of difference in our family's lives over our family's lifetime.

ANNA: Oh my gosh. Exactly. And I think reminding ourselves of the choices is always so important. And it's not just homeschooling, it's the myriad of options and talking with your child about what they want out of the experience, because ultimately it is their life, their education.

So, working with them to understand what drives them, what lights them up, how to fan those fires, instead of extinguishing them. We'll have a much better chance of helping them live their best life than thinking of traditional kind of one-size-fits-all school as the only option. And I want to acknowledge that it is scary to question some of these things that we've been handed. We've all been told is the only way.

And we're not saying throw it all out. You can if you want, but it's more a call to just take a closer look, to look at our own experience in school. How did it serve us? And looking at how it didn't. How is it serving our child now? How is it falling short? Again, it's about bringing intention to those choices and making those choices together so that there's ownership and consent.

PAM: Absolutely. Back to working together as a team. We are supporting them and helping them. And when there are challenges, we're helping them figure out ways to move through that, as well. I can just feel them feeling seen and heard when we have these conversations instead of shutting down any challenges they might be facing.

So, lastly, I want to mention, what does it look like when we decide to thoughtfully consider how we engage with the school system? Because, as we said, we don't need to bring school home wholesale. We can choose our language around school. School can be a way to learn new things, but it's not the only way. School has a certain set of things they teach, the curriculum, but that by no means covers all the interesting things there are in the world that we and our kids can learn.

Kids can learn interesting things in and out of the classroom. We don't need to value school learning over life learning, because learning is everywhere. And we know our kids. We can see through their eyes, recognize the things they're learning throughout their days. We can choose not to bring the ethos of school into our home, not to be a teacher substitute that values the generalized curriculum over the individual child. When our focus is instead on our child, on our relationship with them, and on learning wherever and whenever it happens, it's amazing the fun and engagement and just pure joy that can bubble up through our days.

ANNA: Yes. I mean, what we say and the energy we bring to it has such a huge impact. By valuing all types of learning, we're showing them that the world is rich with opportunities. If they don't fit into the mold of school perfectly, that's okay. We see their value and the value of the way they learn. And maybe that's more hands-on or deep dives, things that don't work quite as well in school. Then they can put those things into perspective.

And even if our child is excelling in the school environment, it's helpful to check in about what they love and exposing them to all the different ways to live, because maybe they're good at doing what's needed for the environment, but when that's over, they're left looking around wondering what they love, how they want to spend their time.

And I think it's important to mention that schools have a deficit focus that kind of goes unnoticed, but it's big. They're trying to bring everybody to a center line of knowledge, and unfortunately it doesn't allow us to develop our strengths as we struggle in areas that we don't enjoy or pick up easily.

And while we may not be able to change that approach in school, you can make sure that there are ample opportunities and support for your child to explore their passions, whether it be art, writing, math, sport, dance, plants, frogs, whatever is is. Together, you can find ways to help them dig into their passion and know that you see and support them doing things that they love, because no matter what the passion is, no matter how tiny and niche there are people out there making money pursuing it, creating careers and a life around it.

Just exposing kids to all the ways there are to live in the world, all the paths, will help them so much as they try to find their own unique path. No one is served by the idea that there's one right way, one path to success. There are countless 40-year-olds out there struggling because they bought that story and now realize it's a myth. But again, connecting with your child or teen now, really hearing them, helping them find their path, not only preserves your relationship, but gives them a strong foundation from which to build a life they don't have to start unpacking in their forties. 

PAM: Yes, yes, yes. And I want to bring that up once more, what you were talking there about a child who is doing well at school, who's excelling at school. Because if we just leave that as the one right path, because they are successful on that one right path, who knows? When they graduate, it's like, oh, is that the path that I want now when there are so many other possibilities?

So, even if things seem to be going "well" and smoothly, it's still beautiful and connecting and wonderful to help them also explore and have fun outside of school, find their passions. Or maybe it's a passion that they've found, something they love that they're enjoying through school.

We can bring more of that into their lives outside, getting to know them and helping them feel seen and heard by you, not just through the school experience, as well.

So, as you contemplate how you see school weaving through your family's lives, here are some questions that we hope you will consider. The first one is, how does it feel as you contemplate prioritizing your child and your relationship with your child over their school grades? Again, it's just like, contemplate for yourself. It's okay to ask yourself any question. Any question is okay.

Number two. What was your school experience growing up? Considering what we talked about in episode three about how people are different and children are people, too, how is your child different from you as a child? How is their school experience different from yours? And I think this is a great one, because sometimes, as parents, we can have like this image of a child in our mind and that's what we're comparing our child against.

But if we can let that drift away, that image of what we thought a child should be or could be ... We wanted our child to like the same things that we like, so we could do them together. If you can let go of all those pieces and just look at the child in front of you and think about how they're different, whether it's in their personalities, the things that they like to do, like all those pieces. Just look at that for a while and think about the differences. That can help us see through their eyes more easily than just our lens of how we're looking at things.

Question three or group of questions number three, what are some aspects of school that you might consider not enforcing at home? Where might you consider your child's needs more important than the school's expectations? And what might that look like? Just play with that for a bit.

ANNA: Yeah. And I want to add the, what does it feel like? here, too, because I'm guessing as even you contemplate this question, you're putting yourself back in that role again of, "But I have to," and so then that's cool to notice, like, "Okay, I am bringing some of that into this exchange with my child and their relationship to school." And so, yeah, just contemplating those questions and how they feel and what it might look like, I think, would be really interesting.

PAM: Yeah, that's the wonderful thing and why we keep talking about energy and how we're feeling, because often our brain doesn't yet maybe notice or want to think about the thing, but if we notice our body's tensing up, that's just a clue that there's something there. Or we notice thinking about something, oh, that feels lighter all of a sudden. I didn't know I wasn't breathing deeply! Wonderful, wonderful clues.

Okay, so our last question. Does your story of your child change when you don't include how they perform at school? If so, how does it change? And which story feels better? Which feels more true to the person that your child is? I love that one. 

ANNA: Me, too. Because so often, that is the only way we interact with children is, what's your favorite subject? What'd you do at school today? And so, really, is that the story you're telling of your child?

Is it steeped in this school or are you seeing these other aspects of them?

PAM: I remember when I first noticed that the first question other adults in the world asked my kids when they met them was, what grade are you in? And that's fine. I'm in grade whatever. Yet, oh my gosh, the lens of school is ubiquitous. It is everywhere. And your child is more than their school attendance and you don't need to bring that home. It's absolutely an aspect of their lives, but it's not all their lives and it doesn't define who they are as a whole.

ANNA: And I guarantee you that they want to be seen as more than that. Even if they love school, they want to be seen as more than that. And so, that will just be really fun to check in and see.

PAM: Yes. I love that. Thank you so much for listening everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye!

ANNA: Bye-bye. Take care.

This week, we're sharing our first episode in the Conflicts series and we're talking about the importance of listening. We live in a world where, often, loud voices prevail. We want to get our points across, convince, explain, and control. But when it comes to our relationships, it's only through really listening that we learn about one another. Listening with openness and curiosity can improve our conversations, lessen conflicts, and strengthen our relationships.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. Recall a recent disagreement with your partner or a close friend. Did you find yourself immediately feeling defensive? Was it hard to fully listen to what they were saying? What was going through your mind?

2. How does it feel when someone takes the time to really listen to you? When that happens, do you feel more open to listening to them? How do things unfold from there?

3. Have you noticed that you are more apt to take your partner or child's upset words or actions personally? How do you think that impacts the discussion that follows? Do similar conflicts seem to happen over and over?

ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We're so happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what it means for how we move through the world.

So, if you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some really foundational relationship ideas and have really been enjoying how they're building on one another. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and a review wherever you listen. That definitely helps new people find us.

So, we've finished our foundation series of episodes and now we'll be rotating through three new series and they're going to be Conflicts, Parenting, and Relationship Tools. Today's episode is the first in the conflict series and we're going to talk about the importance of listening.

We live in a world where, often, loud voices prevail. We want to get our points across, convince, explain, control. But when it comes to our relationships, it's only through really listening that we learn about one another. And through that learning, we start to understand motivations and perspectives. I would say that 95% of conflicts I see between couples or really, people in general, stem from one person taking the actions or words of another personally and then reacting from that place. And we've talked before about the importance of remaining open and curious and in practice, that involves a lot of listening.

PAM: Really. It does so much. And for me, it harks back to what we talked about in episode three. People are different.

While my perspective feels like the right take on a given situation, remembering that people really are different helps me, as you said, be open to other possibilities and get curious to learn more about how the other person is just seeing things. And to do that, I need to really listen to what they're saying. And pulling back another layer on that to really hear the nuances of what they're sharing. I need to shift to being open, to taking in their words. And that's where getting curious takes me.

I may well still think that my perspective is the right one, but if I can make that little shift to being curious about how they're seeing things and how they got there, I can open up enough to hear what they're trying to say. Because if I don't manage that, if I try to listen while staying stuck in my perspective, there's a good chance that the only pieces I'm going to hear, that I'm going to be taking in from their words, are those that connect to my perspective. So, I'm thinking, how does that fit with how I'm seeing things? How can I use what they're saying to convince them that I'm right?

ANNA: Yes. But the thing is, we aren't going to learn more about how they're seeing the situation if we're always putting it through our filter and to go with our argument. This maybe goes back to our confirmation bias, and things we were talking about a couple episodes.

The first step, I feel, to really listening, is to let go of that need to defend or explain our position. That can happen later. So, you don't have to let go of your beliefs to really hear another person and I really feel like that's where we get stuck. "If I'm listening and not defending, does that mean I'm agreeing?" We're kinda like, "Hmm, I don't know how that feels." But it's not about agreeing or disagreeing. It's about listening to understand the situation through the other person's eyes, because without that understanding, we just get stuck in a standoff, each defending our vision of what the situation is.

And we just want so much more than that from our close relationships. And I feel like quieting our thoughts is key to really listening. So often, we're formulating our response in our head and just like you were saying, looking for those pieces we can pull out that works with our story and the other person's talking and we're not listening at all, because we're just looking for those little keywords to put into our argument. But what we're missing is this critical information to understand the situation and the person in front of us.

And I think that remembering there's plenty of time can also help here, too, because this isn't a race, right? If we can just drop any sense of urgency about getting our point across, it can help leave space for being open and curious. And the person that we're talking to will sense it. Just that shift alone will change the energy of the exchange.

PAM: Oh, absolutely. The whole energy of the conversation shifts just when I'm open to new possibilities and perspectives, when I'm up for trying to see things through their eyes and check out episode four to dive more into that as a foundational relationship tool.

To reiterate what you said, Anna, because I think it is such a common sticking point, listening attentively to the other person rather than immediately jumping in to argue my point doesn't mean that I'm conceding that they're right and I'm wrong. Productively navigating conflicts is so much bigger than deciding who's right and who's wrong, and listening is at the core of doing it well.

Because there are always going to be conflicts, right? It's not about trying to get to a place in a relationship where there are no conflicts. We're different people and sometimes we're going to see things differently. So rather, it's about gaining experience with tools that help us move through conflict with more grace and compassion for the other person and for ourselves. That helps us avoid the standoffs that can do so much damage to our relationships.

ANNA: Right, exactly. Because there absolutely are going to be times when we aren't seeing things the same and that makes sense. That's okay. That's just part of life and being involved with humans, you know? But we do have a choice about how those times play out.

Is it a chance to learn more about one another? Or does it become the screaming match or the rupture that takes time and so much energy to find our connection again? I really do believe and have seen we can remain connected through disagreements, by being open and curious and truly wanting to understand our partner or child. They will sense that and we'll feel the difference as well.

And so, one of the next pieces I want to talk about here is learning how to reflect back what you're hearing for clarity. And this serves a couple different purposes. First, you're making sure that you're really hearing the intent behind what's being said, because sometimes as words come through our filter, we can twist it to things that maybe aren't actually there. And so, it gives that person an opportunity to hear that and also shows the person that we're listening and that we want to understand. I actually like to specifically say, "I really do want to understand," just with earnestness, so that they know that even though I may be taking a minute to get it, I am committed to understanding. And it just sets a tone and can just bring down that activated energy. And this part I feel like gets easier as trust is built, a trust that, at our core, as people who care about one another, we want to understand each other and we're in this together.

And I think it can also give information to your partner about how they're coming across, how what they are saying is landing, but it happens in a way that feels a lot less confrontational and in an environment of learning more about one another versus this accusing, blaming, "You're saying this," kind of thing that it can so often devolve into.

And so, it might sound something like, "I can see how hurt you were when I didn't make it to your show," and here you might want to go into the reasons you didn't make it to the show, but don't. Just let them have their emotional experience, really hear them. And after a reflective statement, let them fine tune their message. Even if you get it right, they may want to go deeper, they may want to clarify.

And all of this goes hand in hand with validation, which we're going to talk about in depth in an upcoming episode. But even just truly hearing somebody is validating and shows that you're engaged and care.

And again, during this active reflective listening stage, it's not the time to defend or explain. That's just going to keep the person feeling like they have to defend and explain longer. And so, then we have the battle of who can defend and explain the longest. There's going to be time for you to be heard, but taking this time now to listen will make all the difference in avoiding or deepening a rupture.

PAM: Oh my goodness. Yes. Taking the time to listen and reflect what you're hearing hits so many valuable relationship notes, like just giving it space, back to that urgency piece you mentioned before.

So, as you mentioned first, and it may seem obvious, listening truly does help the other person feel heard. And giving that space after reflection helps them move through their processing. They're learning more about themselves as they hear it back. It's like, yeah, does that land exactly how I meant it? Or what's a little bit deeper? So, just take a moment to think about what that feels like, for somebody to feel heard. Imagine your partner or your friend attentively listening to what you are saying to them. They're really seeing who you are in that moment and fully trusting you that it's your truth. They get it.

Now, when I imagine that, my body actually physically relaxes and I find myself taking a deep healing breath. I want to listen to the people I care about in a way that helps them feel that. And next, taking turns to reflect back what we're hearing helps both of us just hone in on what's really going on for each of us.

I know for me, navigating conflicts can sometimes be about peeling back the layers around why I'm feeling conflicted. So, maybe at first all I can really say is that hurt my feelings. But as the conversation continues, as I listen to what they're sharing, as I contemplate that and try to put my perspective into words, I may be able to share that hurt my feelings because of x. Then maybe I connect it to an experience in my past that I notice being triggered by what's going on.

As we each hone in on the fuller context of what this conflict is triggering for each of us, we learn more about them and about ourselves. And that is information that can help us approach things differently next time, so they're less likely to provoke conflict in the first place.

So, engaging in this process of listening and reflecting while we're navigating conflict helps us eventually emerge with a deeper understanding of each other, strengthening our connection and growing our trust in one another.

ANNA: And as I mentioned earlier, this really does get easier the more you do it, because there will be this growing trust that there's space for everyone to be seen and heard. And this is the environment that we want to cultivate, an environment where there is this deep trust and safety because as we keep saying, everyone is so different. This type of environment leaves room for that.

And because we aren't taking other people's actions or feelings personally, we're able to listen and learn more, which is then forging these deeper connections. Connections that make weathering these ups and downs and all the things that life brings so much easier and much more enjoyable as well.

PAM: Yes, and I think another piece that we're learning as we're building that connection is we're learning our language. How we express things, how we can express things that other people can understand. The kind of language other people use and what it means to them. We are learning so much.

So, as we share examples about the way we might express something, that's the way we would express it. There may be different words that you would choose to express these thoughts and ideas for yourself. But that is what these conversations help, this listening to hear the words and what they're actually saying and what they're meaning by it, what the intent is and how they're receiving it and reflecting back. As you say, this is how we're cultivating and growing that connection and trust and learning the tools and the ways that we, whether it's we and our partner, close friends, children, the way that we can navigate, because it can look different for each of those too, right? 

ANNA: It will. It really will, but I think, again, you can feel the energy difference of, hey, we're going to have disagreements or not see things the same way, but we're here to learn more about each other.

It's not about blaming or any of these pieces. And, like you said, that reflective piece allows us to understand how we're coming across. It allows them to understand how they're coming across to us. It helps all of us just understand, hey, some of this language that may be my go-to isn't landing well, or some things that were fine in my family of origin do not work in this other relationship. Or again, from child to parent to friend to whatever, it's all going to be different. But if we keep that energy of learning, of just being in this together and, hey, we're a team, we're going to figure this out, it's so different than this competitive, win/loss attitude that's so prevalent in our culture.

So, it's very different. And yet I feel like while it sounds like a big shift, I don't know that it's that hard, because we all want to be seen and heard, so it just helps feed itself on how much easier it is and how much better it feels.

PAM: Absolutely. I love that.

ANNA: All right, so we are going to end with some questions to consider. The first one. Recall a recent disagreement with your partner or close friend. Did you find yourself immediately feeling defensive? Was it hard to fully listen to what they were saying? And what was going through your mind and even your body sensations? What were you feeling? Because that's really important sometimes. And like you said, when we give space for that, we can feel that relaxing. And if we don't, that amped up, activated energy really impacts the discussion.

PAM: And seeing in that question, it's just our ourself doing the processing. We're going out to anybody else, so we can play with all those different things. If you didn't feel you were defensive, then maybe you want to ask yourself, well, what would reacting or feeling defensive look like? And then you could say, oh, well maybe I was saying those things, maybe it was being taken that way, et cetera.

So, yeah. It is so fun and interesting just to ask ourselves questions and play around with how we're feeling.

ANNA: Right. Yeah, I love that. Okay, so number two, how does it feel when someone takes the time to really listen to you? When that happens, do you feel more open to listening to them? How do things unfold from there? So, again, this is just a walk through some scenarios and feel that energetic difference. Feel how different it feels in your body, these two types of exchanges.

PAM: Yeah. It makes such a big difference. Because I feel like our feelings, how it feels in our body is often maybe the first thing that we notice. And so, now it takes us into noticing that ahead of time so that, if we're starting to tense up in a conflict type situation, then it's like, oh, oh, something's going on here and I can go back to the conversations I've had before and notice just a little bit more quickly maybe when I'm feeling defensive.

ANNA: Yes. So important, because we're going to get those first clues before it actually really starts to unravel, so we can start looking for that.

Okay. And our last question is, have you noticed that you are more apt to take your partner or your child's upset words or actions personally? How do you think that impacts the discussion that follows?

Do similar conflicts seem to happen over and over? And this is just going to be so critical, because that piece of taking it personally, number one, it is really where everything derails, but it's super discounting to the other person, too, because they're trying to explain something to us that's going on with them, and then if we make it about us, then suddenly they're either having to like, oh, you know, you're okay, or, I didn't mean this, or whatever.

But we're losing that exchange about what's actually happening and it really does create a rupture. So like really looking at, am I taking this personally? And what could I do differently? Maybe ask some questions. Maybe just pause and let that wash over and really hear what they're saying.

PAM: I love that, because when we take it personally, we so often make it about us and then it moves in a completely different direction at that point, which leads to that question we were asking about whether these similar conflicts seem to happen over and over, because that is an amazing clue that, oh, there is more processing to be done here.

ANNA: Exactly. Because we're not getting to their thing. We're not even getting to why it's being brought up, because then we're shifting it to be about us, or it's an attack, or we're getting defensive.

We're not getting to that listening stage. And I think that's really important to point out before we go too. The purpose or the side benefit about this process is you don't keep repeating the same issues. You're going to have new ones and different things, but there will be tweaks and deepening and more understanding of each other, because we are hearing each other through those times. So, we're really understanding it. So, it's not needing to keep bubbling up or we're not needing to get louder because we weren't heard. And so, yeah, I think there are so many benefits to digging into this a little bit more.

PAM: Yeah. And noticing the overall pattern. As you said, we may be tweaking. And then the next time it comes up a little bit differently and a little bit differently. But if we look back over time, we might notice some patterns in there that tell us, oh, there's something over here. Because there are layers and layers and layers of all this. Oh, yes. And listening is what helps us move through it.

ANNA: Yes. Thank you so much everyone for being here with us today, and we will see you next time. Bye-bye.

PAM: Bye, everybody.

In this week's episode we're talking about moving from control to connection. Power and control are pretty insidious, seeping into so many corners of our lives. We talk about dropping the need to be right, considering the context of the moment, and the value of transparent communication. Reaching for control is often a red flag that shows where we might want to dig deeper, to figure out what's really at play. Moving towards connection helps strengthen our relationships and makes navigating conflicts so much easier.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. Next time you’re talking with your partner or friend about what to do next, try adding “for me” to the conversation. Like, “The right thing to do, for me, is X.” How does that feel? How does the conversation flow from there?

2. Do you notice yourself grasping for control more often in moments that have a sense of urgency for you? Can you remind yourself that there’s plenty of time? Does that help?

3. Do you feel resistance when someone else tells you what to do? Why? Does it feel like they’ve taken away your choice? Do you purposefully avoid doing that thing now, even if it seems like it might be helpful?

4. Turning that around, do you feel resistance from your partner and/or children when you tell them what to do? What does their resistance look like from your perspective? Now shift and see the situation through their eyes (see episode 4 for more details).

PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are so happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas in these first 14 episodes and have really enjoyed how they're building on one another. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we would love if you could share it with someone in your life that you think would benefit from contemplating these ideas. It is super easy to share. Just send them to pod.link/livingjoyfully. From there, they can pick their favorite podcast player and it will take them right to the show in that app. Thank you so much for helping us spread the word.

So, back in episode two, we talked about connection and how connecting with another person creates a feeling of being in alignment with them, where each person feels seen and heard for who they are. Yet the cultural and conventional wisdom that surrounds relationships is steeped in power and control, which is almost the opposite of connection.

Now, granted, I think many people would answer that they prioritize connection over control, especially in their closest relationships, like with their partner and children. But what's interesting is that what that looks like day to day can be a lot more nuanced than we first think. Power and control are pretty insidious, seeping into so many corners of our lives. So, this week we want to talk about what the shift from control to connection might look like in our relationships.

For me, one of the most impactful paradigm shifts, as I moved away from using power and control as a relationship tool to focusing on connection, was a shift away from needing to be right, which to be clear is not the same thing as being wrong. That's one of the societal frameworks that keeps us stuck in control-based relationship dynamics, that one person is right and the other is wrong. That right and wrong, black and white thinking is overly simplistic, particularly when it comes to the complexity of being in relationship with another human being. Not needing to be right means not needing to be universally right. It means recognizing that people are different, which we dove into back in episode three.

What I can say is, "This is what feels right for me." We aren't in competition with the people we love. It is not us versus them. When I don't feel the need to judge the other person's choices or interests as right or wrong, I am so much freer to connect with them as the unique person they are and to show up as the unique person I am. For me, releasing the need for the other person to agree that I'm right weaves together nicely with the idea of being open and curious that we talked about a few weeks ago in episode 11. I can know what's right for me and I'm curious to discover what's right for them. 

ANNA: Yes! I think our culture sets up competition and black and white thinking pretty much from the get-go, especially in school. And while leaning into that paradigm might serve us in that environment, it does not help with our relationships at all. We want to cultivate an environment where we're learning about each other, not pushing a particular agenda. And understanding we're not universally right about all the things is a big step.

And if I'm having trouble finding that energy, I'll use my mantra, "Be kind, not right," because at this point, I'm usually looking at the choice of being right and harming the relationship or being kind and staying connected. And I just always want to stay connected to the people that I love, because it's from that place that we move with the most ease through our days and through any issues.

And over the years, it's been interesting to see how, when I can refrain from jumping in with my idea of what's right, I can learn so much. Because we are all so different. We really can see the very same situation completely differently. And when we leave space to see through another person's eyes, we find that maybe things really weren't as black and white as we originally thought they were.

PAM: Yes. Choosing to give that space to listen rather than jumping in with my two cents was a pivotal shift for me in cultivating connected and trusting relationships. There was space for me to learn so much more about my partner and kids and about the situations and how they saw them. So often, situations were, and are, so much more nuanced than I first thought.

So, another valuable shift that has helped me move away from control and focus on connection in my relationships has been recognizing that so much of life isn't as urgent as we're led to believe. We first talked about that in episode eight, "There's Plenty of Time." And I really do love how so many of these foundational ideas weave together. That's why they feel foundational to us. You'll hear us mentioning, oh, this one and this one.

So, when something feels urgent, it makes sense for us to be tempted to fall back on control tactics. Because we feel like we need things to happen quickly. We need to solve this fast. But so often, that urgency isn't real. It's ingrained through societal messages like, doing things faster is better. The first person across the line wins.

But truly, when it comes to relationships, it's not a race. And doing things in connection is better. So, sure, it can take longer to have conversations and come up with a plan that works for both parties, rather than just telling them what to do and expecting it to be. Yet the resentment that builds in the relationship as a result will eventually need repair. So, I think it's more like a tradeoff, right? The time upfront to prioritize the connection or the time later to repair the connection. So, for me, the relationship is just much more enjoyable and fun when I prioritize the connection as much as I can versus the ups and downs of control, repair, control, repair.

Enough things, when you think about it, really do come up in a relationship that need repair. I don't need to create more by stepping in and trying to control other people. Because I sure don't like when they try to do it to me!

ANNA: Right! For me, it's really an energy thing. Like, where do I wanna spend my energy? Because I can tend towards controlling things in the environment, but it's like, do I want to spend all that energy trying to control humans that don't want to be controlled? Or do I want to have that connection? Do I want to do that upfront work with those conversations. And for me, that just felt better in my days. It just felt better with my kids. It feels better with my partner.

And I don't know if we can ever mention the culturally embedded sense of urgency too much, because it really is this state that keeps us from tuning into ourselves and to others. And letting go of it is so liberating. When something's a true emergency, we'll know, and we'll act on it right away. Every other time, we can take that pause and tune into the people around us to really understand where they're coming from and also tune into ourselves so that we can communicate our needs in a way that isn't pushing through someone else's consent or running over top of their needs.

That self-awareness piece is so critical, and it takes some time to develop, because many of us did not have our needs acknowledged as children. So, it's hard to even know what we want or why we want it. Teasing apart the cultural shoulds and have tos from our true inner voice takes practice, especially if we were discounted as kids.

But as we learn to listen to ourselves, we're then able to communicate from that place. And it's more honest and it's more understandable. When we're throwing shoulds and have tos at people, shoulds and have tos that we may not even fully understand or buy into, it's just a recipe for misunderstanding and disconnection.

But when something truly means something to us, we can explain the why. And then we leave space for the other person to do the same. We can have these more interesting conversations where we're learning about one another and where we can find solutions that feel good to both of us. And that begins with the generous assumption that there may be more than one right way, our way, to look at a situation.

PAM: Oh, it's so true. Developing that level of self-awareness where we better understand and can communicate our why is pretty key to moving from control to connection in our close relationships, and I see it as a wonderful spiral.

As we better understand ourselves, it opens us up to recognizing that others have that depth as well, which helps us give space to learn more about them and connect more deeply with them, which in turn inspires us to dig deeper ourselves and round and round. Because there is no need to wait until we think we perfectly understand ourselves and give ourselves an A before opening up these conversations.

I think that's one thing I can promise. There are always more layers. Always, always. It's an ongoing journey.

All right, so, one other thing I want to mention is that when we're feeling the urge to reach for control in our relationships, sometimes what's underneath that is fear rather than judgment. Controlling the other person feels like the safer choice to us. When that happens, it's also worth digging into seeing where that's coming from. It is always worth digging.

So, maybe it's something we've absorbed about relationships growing up. A really simple example might be if growing up our parents were adamant that we, that's that royal family we, must always be sorry after a disagreement, whether or not we felt it. That message was ingrained in us, and now we're an adult, and if our partner doesn't tend to apologize automatically, we may find ourselves trying to convince, in other words control, them to do so. The perfunctory apology feels safer to the relationship for us, because that's the message we absorbed growing up.

But is it really? As we become more insistent, they may well become increasingly resistant. Few people like that feeling of being controlled at any age. So, it's worth digging deeper to discover where we've picked up messages about being in relationship with others that lead us to reach for control, and then taking the time to ponder whether they actually make sense to us now. We've got an experience now. We have real people in front of us that we are in relationship with. Is it working? How is it working? How is it feeling? It's so worth taking the time to dig into that.  

ANNA: It really is. And I think control is pretty much always hiding something. And I think you're right that it is often fear and judgment. And it's so helpful to dig into that, because then we can understand the fear. I feel like it's rare that fear can stand up to shining a light on it, when we really call it out in front of us. It tends to lurk back in the recesses. I think insecurity can also be tied up in it as well. And if we're unwilling to look at where that's coming from, it can cast this huge shadow on the relationship.

I've worked with couples where one of them looks to control to help themselves feel safe. But what that looks like is saying things like their partner needs to delete Instagram or change their communications, or stop doing X. And even if the partner agrees in the moment, it's this very shaky foundation to build upon, because trust is one of the most important elements of relationship. We build trust through conversations and owning our own pieces, through hearing our partner, and offering that generous assumption.

So, we can look and talk about what feels scary about Instagram, we can walk through it, own our pieces, and keep having the conversation. Because no one wants to feel controlled, and a coerced mind is not a changed mind. So, at the first sign of trouble, those shaky agreements are thrown out the window and then feelings are hurt. We need to understand the why behind actions for them to have meaning. That only happens through really listening to one another and finding a path forward that works for everyone.

PAM: Yes. I love that so much. A coerced mind is not a changed mind. Just thinking for myself, for me to change my mind, I do need to understand the why behind it. I need that bigger picture. It needs to make sense to me. And pulling it back to being open and curious, I want to be open to learning more and to changing my mind, because again, I'm not clinging to my perspective, my right answer, as the right answer for everyone. I'm curious to learn more about it. It just all weaves together so beautifully, doesn't it?

ANNA: Oh my gosh. It really does. And we also talk a lot about context, and I think it's important to think about context as it relates to control, as well. If we find ourselves grasping for control in our relationships, or we see our partner trying to control us or our children, look at what's going on in the wider context. Because I've seen over and over again that if work feels out of control, we clamp down at home. And if home is feeling out of control, we clamp down at work. And that leaves the people impacted really reeling, having no idea where it's coming from. And it can lead to some pretty big ruptures.

So, owning when things feel hard and out of control and realizing that trying to control others won't change that. It just ends up disconnecting us from the people who could actually be providing support during the challenges. And when we see it happening, that's where I think some narration can really help our partner. "I'm feeling a lot of pressure at work and it feels like we might not even have jobs next week, and it's making me feel freaked out and snappy." That helps our partner know what's happening in our mind, helps them not take it personally. And it keeps us honest.

We don't need or want to take things out on our partner, but when we're operating on autopilot, we often will, and it just never feels good.

Context includes a lot of things, not just work and home life, but smaller things like sleep and have we eaten and hormones and visiting relatives and bigger things like death and major changes like moves or a new job. Even when it's something positive that's happening, it can still be adding to our sense of overwhelm and triggering that need for control. So, being honest with ourselves and really taking responsibility for how we're showing up can help so much. And if we see it in our partner, we can gently hold space for them to view the larger context, to try to make sense of the behaviors that are causing harm or disconnection.

I really believe our natural state is to want to be connected. So, given the opportunity to be seen and heard, we'll choose to find a way back to it. If we trust our partners and our children in that, it will create an environment where we're helping each other and finding solutions, and then we see there's no need for power over.

PAM: Yes, there is no need to exert power over others. We really can instead work together as a team. And while it is absolutely not an easy button, my goodness, it feels so much richer and vibrant and real. Feeling seen and heard and understood just makes a world of difference for everyone at every age. And that happens through being in connection with another person, where we can share that this stuff is going on right now, or, "I'm having a hard day." Even when we just feel like we've been beaten down a bit, we are snappier. We just jump to the answer, because we don't have time, or we don't have the capacity to think of all these other options. And you don't want the other person to think, oh, that's weird. They're acting strange. 

ANNA: What's happening there? But it's really the connection that would help us through those T tumultuous times when we tend to reach for control. So, it's like, use it as a red flag, create a culture where you can talk about when that control starts to seep in. Because really what's happening is we need more connection, and so, just understanding that can really change things in a home, especially if there's just a lot of tough stuff going on.

PAM: Yeah, that is such a great point, because not only if we can express what's going on in our heads, it doesn't have to be a big, long explanation of all the things. It's like, "I'm feeling overwhelmed right now." Then not only did they not take it personally when we're feeling snappy, like you said, their support is then yet another benefit. It's like, "Oh, is there anything I can do? Would you like to go take a little break? I'll look after this for you."

So, not only are we not making them feel bad about themselves, not creating a disconnection, we're also getting the support alongside it so often. So, it's just good. Connection is so good in so many ways.

All right. So, here are some questions you might want to ponder as you explore the idea of choosing connection over control.

Next time you're talking with your partner or friend about what to do next, try adding, "for me," to the conversation. Like, "The right thing to do for me is X." How does that feel? How does the conversation flow from there? Just opening up the possibilities. "The right thing to do is," like how closed down that feels. "For me, it's this." That just invites someone else to say, "Well, for me, I'm kind of feeling Y. Is there a way we can put X and Y together and then we'll all be happy?" That's just a great baby step to take in that kind of situation.

Okay. So, question two, do you notice yourself grasping for control more often in moments that have a sense of urgency for you? Can you remind yourself there's plenty of time? And does that help? Why or why not? Is there more to dig into there?

ANNA: Right. But it's that red flag. Just know that control is the red flag. Start looking at the other pieces and the context, the sense of urgency, the other things that could be happening. It just gives you a lot of information.

PAM: Yeah. Okay, so question three. Do you feel resistance when someone else tells you what to do? Why? Does it feel like they've taken away your choice? Do you purposefully avoid doing that thing now, even if it seems like it might be helpful? I'm definitely guilty of that. It's so interesting to dig in and just to see, because it can happen. In our world, it often happens. Somebody's just telling us what to do, right? To take a moment to just see how that feels can be so valuable.

Question number four, turning that around, do you feel resistance from your partner or your children when you tell them what to do? What does their resistance look like from your perspective? Now shift the situation and see through their eyes. You can listen to episode number four for more details. And what does it look like now? I find it fascinating to think of, what does their resistance look like? Because it's often not a shouted no in your face or, but all of a sudden they may be in other rooms.

ANNA: That withdrawing or it comes back a little bit later. Just watch how, when we're trying to control other people, how it impacts all the energy of the house, even when it's not someone that we're even directly controlling. There's just so much to be aware of there, and it's usually, again, just hiding some other piece, that digging in that we talked about that's so important.

PAM: Yeah, exactly. Because when we can take that time to dig in that little bit, then we can shift to the conversation that we're always talking about. That conversation brings that connection. So again, it's not like we're stuffing down the things that we're feeling and seeing, but we're being open to learning how other people are seeing it and to understanding what it looks like through their eyes.

Okay. Thank you so much for listening to us chat again. We are so excited to be having these conversations with you, and we would love to hear about how you are engaging with the questions, and we will see you next time. Bye!

ANNA: Take care.

Let's talk about cognitive biases. Commitment bias, confirmation bias, and negativity bias are common thinking patterns that can lead to errors in judgment as well as conflict in our relationships. We dive into how they show up in our everyday lives and how becoming aware of our brain's tendencies can allow us to be more open and curious and to find more joy and connection in our relationships.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. Examine your thoughts around quitting, sunk costs, and commitments. Are those thoughts serving you? Do you and your partner see them in the same way?
2. Describe a time when confirmation bias stopped you from seeing someone else’s point of view.
3. Do the Joy Writing exercise for your partner or another loved one. Reflect on how it felt and how it changes your energy when you read it.

ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We're happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas and really have enjoyed how they're kind of playing off each other and building on one another. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and review. That definitely helps new people find us.

In today's episode, we're gonna talk about a few common cognitive biases that trip us up as we navigate our relationships. Cognitive biases are basically mental shortcuts that our brains will take as they try to quickly process the vast amounts of information in our very complex world.

So, let's start with commitment bias and the sunk cost fallacy. The sunk cost fallacy is associated with the commitment bias, where we continue to support our past decisions despite new evidence suggesting that it isn't really the best course of action. We fail to take into account that whatever time, effort, or money that we've already expended will not be recovered.

And this could be something as simple as finishing a meal or a movie one of you isn't enjoying, because you've already paid for it, or something bigger, like finishing a college program even though, at this point, you're pretty sure you don't want to work in that field at all, but you stay because you've committed to it.

This can cause friction in our relationships when we have different ideas about money, commitment, and what those things mean. Very often, the idea to stick it out at all costs was pretty much ingrained in us as children. Somehow we're a failure if we quit or we would be wasting the money, so we have to stick with it to make these expenditures worthwhile.

It's really worth examining those beliefs if you see them coming into play in your relationships. Understanding sunk costs helps us see that the money is spent, period. The choice then becomes whether I want to take what I've learned about myself and move on to something else I can enjoy or stay with something that I don't.

Take the money out of the equation because it's already gone, but what can I get out of that situation? What I get out of is up to me. Just learning that we don't like something has value. Letting go of judging ourselves or our partners as failing when we decide to quit something goes a long way to learning more about each other. And providing unconditional support as we figure out what we want to do with our time.

The conversation is so much more valuable when we're looking at the nuances of the situation. And this also comes into play big time with children, doesn't it?

PAM: Oh, it definitely does. We think we're teaching our children something positive by insisting they stick it out and follow through on their commitments when we sign them up for a rec class or they join a team. But the message they're often absorbing is, don't try new things unless you're really sure you're going to like it, or you might get stuck having to do something you really dislike.

It can be so helpful to frame these kinds of choices, not as commitments, but as opportunities to try something new. You're paying for the opportunity for them to try it out and discover if it's as interesting as they imagine. Insisting someone not quit doing something they're not enjoying or just judging them negatively when they do is disconnecting and damaging to the relationship. And to what end? Because they definitely learn something more about themselves through discovering they don't like the thing and they can use that knowledge along with the time they freed up to pursue something else more in alignment with their interests.

So, when you think about it in the bigger picture, they'll find the things that they love more quickly this way. And it's in finding the things they really enjoy where you'll see commitment in action. Even when things get frustrating or inconvenient, they'll show up. So, it's not about teaching commitment, it's about finding the things they are excited to commit to.

And that definitely applies to us as well. Sometimes it's easier to think about it in the context of another person, but then to make that shift to realize this applies to us. We don't need to pressure ourselves to follow through on commitments if our enthusiasm has waned and we are ready to move on.

Instead, let's celebrate that. Yay! Look what we know. We know more about what we like and what we don't like, or even more about the environments in which we're comfortable. That's another big piece of it too, right?

ANNA: Yes. I love celebrating when we're learning more about who we are and how we want to move through the world. And I love the idea of paying for the opportunity. It's such a helpful framework. We're always learning and I want to support my kids, my partner, and myself in trying things that seemed interesting to us.

I didn't need to have an attachment to the outcome, because no matter what, there will be learning, even if it's just, I really don't like this particular activity.

And so, it goes back to conversations too though, because we can talk about the money involved in trying something and we can see if there's ways to trial it first, and what would be some of our other options. But I didn't want to get stuck only looking at decisions through the lens of how much it costs.

It's one part, but it's not the only, and I usually found it wasn't the most important part.

And it was actually my finance major husband who first told me about sunk costs when one of our children wanted to quit a class they were taking and it made honoring where they were and what they were learning so much easier, because I could let go of any guilt or baggage around the money part. Because the money's already spent, and again, this was work I needed to do for myself, as well. Giving myself permission to try something, even if I wasn't perfect at it, even if I decided at any point along the way that it wasn't working for me.

PAM: Yeah, it's interesting how it's often easier to give grace to other people than it is to give it to ourselves, but we're people too. And I wanted just to bring back that point, when we talk about sunk costs, it's not about ignoring the money. It is once it's spent, but it doesn't mean we don't have that conversation up front. Maybe this is gonna be a big chunk of our budget and we want to look at all sorts of possibilities. If there is a way to get some experience with it before spending the larger chunk, that can be a valid way, too. Again, back to the conversations.

ANNA: That's the richness of the conversations and staying connected and the baby steps from last week. It all wraps together.

PAM: Okay, so now let's talk about the confirmation bias, which is the tendency to process information by looking for or interpreting information that is consistent with one's existing beliefs. This biased approach to decision making is largely unintentional and often results in ignoring what feels like inconsistent information. "That doesn't make sense. I'm going to toss that."

It's hard to be open and curious when we're filtering information through our existing beliefs. This can sow disconnection in our relationship in a few ways, like discounting the other person's ideas or always bringing the same old ideas to our conversations. We are less creative.

And in conversations, we tend to listen to the other person with an eye to picking out the bits that match how we see this situation, which we talked about a couple of weeks ago as well. And we're just waiting until we can jump in with those pieces, rather than hearing the full picture of what they're sharing.

When our confirmation bias is in full swing, we are not seeing that bigger picture, are we?

ANNA: Not at all. And it really reminds me of our talk about seeing through their eyes from episode four. If we're only seeing through our eyes, we already know what we're looking for and it colors everything. I think this comes into play when we're upset with our partner or children, as well. We tend to see things that confirm our ideas about them.

With our partner, it could be reading into every little behavior and thinking, see, they don't care about my feelings. Hello, writing stories! And with kids it can be seeing dysregulation and blaming a video game, because we're thinking that video games are bad, when the dysregulation could just be a need for connection, some food, or some rest, something carried over from school that morning.

With our partners and children, we don't want to be writing stories about the meaning of things. If we have an idea that's causing distress, they don't love me, they don't trust me, they don't like this or that, ask them. Open the conversation and enter it with that open and curious mindset we talked about earlier in the month. Upsets can rarely survive the light of inquiry, openness, and understanding.

PAM: Yes. The stories we tell ourselves, right? So, for me, the clue is noticing when I'm telling myself a story about someone else. That's when I need to step carefully, because I am not them. I don't know all their personal history or the extenuating circumstances they're seeing right now. I don't know they were tired or feeling frustrated by something completely unrelated. I don't know until I ask.

Because when I'm telling myself a story, it is pretty natural for it to be all about me. And definitely that works pretty well when I am talking about myself, how I'm feeling, how I'm seeing these things. But it can take me down all sorts of unhelpful paths when I'm making assumptions about how others are seeing me.

As you say, it is so much better to have the conversation with them and just check in and see what's going on. 

ANNA: Yes, just get out of our head and get into that moment with our partners and loved ones.

Okay, so the last one we want to touch on today is the negativity bias. So, the negativity bias is the tendency to remember negative events more starkly and more frequently than positive events.

So, this isn't inherently problematic since it's a great way to learn from mistakes and avoid negative experiences in the future. You can see it's actually a survival skill. We quickly learn what can hurt us and what's dangerous, and we actively avoid those things. Our brain is wired to give us those things at a higher priority in order to keep us safe. We haven't really evolved out of that primal need to evaluate safety in our environment.

But here's the thing. Most of us don't have tigers lurking around the corner, so bringing that intense survival energy to things like our relationships can cause a lot of heartache. We don't want to constantly be thinking about every negative thing that has happened. It keeps us stuck in the past and doesn't give our loved ones a chance to grow and change.

PAM: Everybody just sit with that for just a little bit. It is so true that negative experiences stay with us longer and are recalled more quickly in a challenging moment. And, as you say, there's reasons for that.

And not only does it play out on that personal level. We see it on a societal level, as well. Society in general is focused on the negative things that are happening. So often, those are the stories that are widely in the news and on social media. We find ourselves surrounded by negative stories, which fills us with more negative events to recall at a moment's notice, round and round. It can become a lens through which we see the world. Our negativity bias seeping into our confirmation bias.

ANNA: Yep. And bringing awareness to these biases helps us understand that we need to be very intentional about changing our focus. Things like joy writing and gratitude practices can help bring our focus to all the things we love, all the things that are actually working.

So, when I'm working with couples, I ask them to do a joy writing exercise. Basically, you each write down a list of things you love about the other, what you love about the relationship, beautiful moments, lovely gestures, things that can fill you with love when you're thinking about them. Keep it handy, have it on your phone or somewhere you can read it daily.

Rereading it changes our energy and it changes how we interact with our partner, how we see our relationship. It keeps the focus on all the wonderful things there and it fosters that connection. And from a place of connection, we can move through the bumps of life with more ease. 

PAM: That is so, so true. Just the act of remembering the good side, alongside the challenges. It doesn't mean ignoring the challenges. It's not, let's just pack those in a box and forget about them. But remembering that so much of our lives are all these good things, too.

So, as you mentioned, gratitude practices can also foster that loving energy towards our partner and our kids. We can make a point of writing down a few things that we're grateful for related to our partner and kids each day. It need only take a couple of minutes and we can share it with them too.

This practice helps us notice the positive bits in our day and in our relationships, because they are there. And it's a great way to counteract that negativity bias.

ANNA: Yes. And incorporating these practices and just keeping an eye towards what's working, what feels good, will help train your brain in a way that's more useful in our current environment. You'll still have the skills of recognizing danger, but will be less likely to label something that's just a bump in the day, or the relationship as something serious that feels very threatening.

PAM: That's such a big difference there. Put it in the context, in the context of your whole day, not having this one moment that felt uncomfortable or challenging and having that override or color, the whole rest of your day, discount all the other bits that happened that were connecting, that were fun. They have so much value, too. 

ANNA: And I think just understanding that our brains tend to do that helps us just put that little check in place. Like, okay, wait a minute. Am I forgetting about all the good things and only focusing, because that's what brains like to do? And so, then we're able to take those additional steps and do those practices.

So, here are some questions that you might want to ponder as you explore how these cognitive biases might be playing out in your relationships. So, first, examine your thoughts around quitting, sunk costs, and commitments. Are those thoughts that are serving you? Do you and your partner see them the same way? It could be some really fun discussions to have there.

Describe a time when confirmation bias stopped you from seeing someone else's point of view. And this, you may even have to watch for, because it's so natural that we don't even notice, but just start seeing it as you're having conversations. Are we looking for what we want to see?

PAM: Yeah. And that's where that open and curious piece comes in. That's just that little reminder, for me anyway, just to not get stuck in there. There's other possibilities.

ANNA: Yeah. Love it. Okay. And do the joy writing exercise for your partner and other loved ones.

Reflect on how it felt and how it changes your energy when you read it. I cannot tell you just how powerful this has been for so many people that have tried it and just really have enjoyed it.

PAM: Yeah, I think that that it really does help just change our energy. Reminding us, oh yeah, these are all true. It's not like we're making up anything or trying to fool ourselves. Literally these are the things that we love about our partner, our children, the fun things that we're doing, the fun pieces of the day.

And the one thing I want to mention about these questions is I love that we're going through and asking them now. And I really encourage people to take some time to sit with them, because it really is much more helpful I think to be thinking about these things outside of a particular challenge. But don't wait until all of a sudden y'all are arguing about, oh my gosh, our child wants to quit this activity, to have a conversation about sunk costs. Like you were saying, that could be a very fun conversation.

When it's heated about a particular thing that's happening right now that feels urgent and feels like it needs a quick decision, that can be a hard time to have that kind of conversation. But if we can start playing with these ideas and asking ourselves these kinds of questions and playing through them without the pressure or urgency of something happening right in this moment, that can be so very helpful. 

ANNA: Right, because you're steeping in these new ideas and then they're there for us.

When these challenges come up, we can recall back like, hey, I want to put it through this lens. I want to blow back a little bit and look at open and curious and see what else is at play here. I want to know that I have plenty of time. All these things that we're talking about can just be things that you keep in your back pocket as you go through and you'll start seeing how they're just helpful tools that help you navigate these things, so we don't have the spirals or the big blowups about it.

So, I hope it's helping. It's been a lot of fun to talk about, anyway. So, thank you so much for listening and we hope to see you next time. Take care.

PAM: Yes. Bye, everybody.

This week on the podcast, we're talking about baby steps. So often, when we're faced with a challenge or making a choice, we don't need to have the full picture or the final answer in order to move forward. By taking a baby step in the direction that makes sense to us or to our loved ones, we can learn more about the situation and see how it feels. One baby step can lead naturally to the next. As we keep communicating and checking in, we can find a path forward that works for everyone.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. Does it feel like many of the day to day choices you’re making are urgent? Are they really? If you haven’t listened to episode 8 yet about Anna’s mantra, “there’s plenty of time,” I highly recommend it.
2. Thinking back, can you remember a time when you felt pressured (often by ourselves!) to make a decision quickly yet the better choice wasn’t immediately clear? Can you think of a series of baby steps that might have helped? Feel free to get creative!
3. Is there a choice or a goal you’re considering right now that feels big? You don’t need to know exactly how you’d get there, but can you see a baby step in that direction? Can you do that and see what happens?
4. Are you more of a leap-first person or a firm-footing person? What about your partner? Your children? How can understanding that help you communicate with them about future decisions?

PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas in these first dozen episodes and have really enjoyed how they are building on one another. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, please share it with the people in your life that you think would benefit from contemplating these ideas. It's super easy to share. Just send them to pod.link/livingjoyfully. From there, they can pick their favorite podcast player and it will take them right to the show in that app. Thanks so much for helping us spread the word.

And so, this week, we are going to talk about the idea of baby steps. When we're trying to make a choice, so often, we don't need to make the big, ultimate decision right now. This builds on the idea that there's plenty of time, which we talked about a few weeks ago. These are the threads that are moving through them all.

So, maybe we're not yet sure whether we want to pursue the end goal that we're considering. When we find ourselves here, what's often missing is more information or experience. So, taking the next baby step in that direction can give us more information to help us make that bigger picture decision. Sometimes we need to take quite a few baby steps before we get a keen sense of what we ultimately want to do.

Or, maybe our partner or child wants to do something that stretches our comfort zone. Chances are, we don't need to make a yes/no choice immediately. Staying open and curious, which we talked about last week, can help us take the next baby step in that direction and just learn more about what it entails and how it feels. It can also give us a better understanding of why they're wanting to go in that direction and some experience that can help us better explain our perspective. We're learning more about them and we're learning more about ourselves.

That deeper level of self-awareness and having a better grasp of the language around their goal, now we can have more meaningful and connected conversations with them. There's just so much we can learn when we try just that next baby step, isn't there?

ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. And it really is the natural extension of last week's discussion on being open and curious. When our partner or child brings us something they want to do, sometimes if we don't see the whole path clearly, we'll just shut it down. At the first thought of resistance, we're just like, "No, that doesn't sound doable." But if instead we can ask some questions and start walking in that direction, we learn so much more about each other and also about the task at hand. What does it really mean? What is it really going to entail?

We don't have to commit to that end goal, like you're saying, right away. Taking that first step helps us learn more and keeps us connected.

PAM: Yeah. Yeah. So, I have a story to share about taking baby steps and stretching my comfort zone, that, looking back, I do remember fondly.

It's an example of how we don't need to make all or nothing decisions immediately, and how choosing the next baby step does not mean that you've committed to a big yes right now.

So, this happened years ago now, in the aftermath of a big January snowstorm. My daughter was maybe 13 or 14 and we had tickets to see a concert in the city about an hour away. So, that morning, the snow was falling heavily and I was sure they'd cancel the show. People were being told to stay home if possible. I was looking forward to settling in and hanging out around the fire in our wood stove.

My daughter had been looking forward to the show and was understandably disappointed. I told her that I was pretty sure they'd reschedule the show. So, she wouldn't miss it. It would just be postponed. She kept checking the website. And by early afternoon, they announced that the show was going to go on.

Obviously, she wanted to go and I wanted to stay home. I imagined all the hurdles in our way. And it seemed like way too much work, yet I could see her immense disappointment and I chose to shift to being open and curious about the possibility.

And though I couldn't yet muster a, "Yes, let's go!" I did manage to take a baby step to meet her with a maybe. Though the snow had now stopped falling, I explained the obstacles I saw and that I was willing to try the next baby step and see how it looked. If it looked okay, we'd try the next baby step and the next, and she agreed.

So, step one was, clean off the car and shovel enough of the driveway to get out by our planned departure time. And we did it, even after the snow plow went by and created another curb of snow at the end of the driveway that we had to dig through again.

So, step two, is our local rural road plowed and safely drivable? Once we could peek out and see the road, that was a yes, too. Step three was pack the car with extra hats and mitts and snacks in case we get stuck along the way. Done.

By the time we pulled out of the driveway, it felt like we were on quite the adventure. I was rather surprised we'd actually made it this far, but there was no point that said, "Stop," so we kept going. Step four, as we slowly drove into the city, I reminded her that if the road or the traffic got bad, we would turn back. Even in her excitement, she was fine with that. It turned out that though the roads were snow-covered, they had been plowed, so it wasn't deep, and traffic was very light. Slowly but surely, we made our way into the city.

Step five, we pulled into the venue parking lot. We were both so surprised to find ourselves there. It was almost surreal. I can still remember the feeling. So white and quiet outside. And inside, the concert turned out to be a very intimate show. The band thanked those who showed up and really connected with the audience as they played. It ended up being a pretty magical night.

I remember that day vividly because it was a great reminder that, when I'm feeling overwhelmed, when I'm feeling like I need to make a big yes/no choice, taking baby steps and looking around after each one to see what's up and see how I'm feeling can be a really helpful way for me to move through it.

I could acknowledge both my discomfort and her enthusiasm, holding both of them gently in my hands. And baby step by baby step, explore whether we could find a path forward that worked for both of us.

And that said, sometimes we don't have the capacity for that, and that's okay. Sometimes we start out and come to an impasse. That's okay, too. But sometimes we find a path of baby steps that works out. And over the years, that happened way more often than I expected. That inspired me each time just to give it a shot.

ANNA: Just to give it a shot! Oh my gosh. I love that story. And I think what I want to highlight is that by being open to those next steps and communicating along the way, you stayed on the same side.

You were a team. You were solving it together. You were traveling those next steps together. And you could have shut it down with a no saying, it's just too snowy, which really wouldn't have been that unreasonable of a reaction. But most likely, it would've led to some kind of rupture, even beyond the disappointment. Maybe even a slammed door or just some kind of upset. But instead, you dug into your concerns. You were honest about them, talked about them, and slowly started to address them together, knowing that at any time you could change your mind.

And what she saw was that you were trying, and again, that you were working together. And that is just such a different energy than making top-down decisions. Because had it not worked out, she would've seen the path of why it didn't work out. The road's impassable. We can't get the driveway dug out. The car's not starting. Whatever the real thing would've been, as opposed to you inside by the fire making that choice for her.

I think we can do this with our partners, too. They'll have an idea and instead of examining where our reactions are coming from, we just react and we shut it down and it's really disconnecting. And interestingly, we can do this whether the idea has anything to do with us or not. It's really easy to fall into that trap of pointing out all the problems. Instead, we can listen, ask questions, celebrate the excitement that the person has for the idea. That's what keeps us connected and helps us find the next steps that make sense.

So, it's back to being open and curious. I want to cultivate that mindset when someone comes to me with an idea, because from that place, we can figure out any resistance and start to address it with those next baby steps. And the key with this process is to remain connected and curious. I can be honest about what's coming up for me without judging or shutting down what's happening for them and where they want to go.

I think part of it is releasing any sense of urgency, which we talk about a lot. I know sometimes I can feel pressured when somebody comes to me with a request, but what I've learned is that, if I answer from that place, I most likely will say no or something that disconnects us. It's okay to ask for some time to think and gather your thoughts and consider things. And that's back to, are you an internal or external processor? Taking time to think about what's causing the resistance helps you to be able to communicate that with your partner and child.

And honestly, the first step is often just listening, like really listening. What's behind the request? What are they excited about? How do they see it playing out? Then perhaps the next step is really still information gathering. There's a lot you can do that's pretty low stakes, but it shows that you're open to understanding and trying to find a path forward, and it just makes all the difference in a relationship.

PAM: Yes, as an internal processor, I have said to my kids over the years and they learned to work with, "If you need an answer right now, it's gonna be a no. But if you give me a few minutes to just take it in and figure out how it feels and what it looks like," I just need to process it and it's not something I can do aloud. As an internal processor, I just need to do it in my head. And do the different paths. Okay, so this is the change, this is what that change looks like over the rest of the day or week, depending on what it is. And then I'm like, "Oh yeah, that's all good." And then I go back and say, yes, or I actually discover what the hiccup is, and then I can go and say, "Oh, but look, that impacts this for me. How can we address that?"

But if I need to answer right away, I would say no. And most people are not like, "I'll take the no right away, please." So, seeing through their eyes is just so very helpful, because that's what each baby step can help us with. So, even if I don't get to a place where I share their level of excitement about the thing, I can definitely often get to a place where I can appreciate their excitement. And want it for them. That makes all the difference in the world for me.

ANNA: So much. And I think just what you were just talking about it, it's important to acknowledge that there are differences that we can learn about in each other. And we talked a bit about that in episode three, but I think this is another potential difference that can trip up relationships.

So, you're going to have the people who like to leap first, ask questions later, and then you're going to have people who really need to feel out every step, to confirm that there's some firm footing here before I go any further. And understanding where you lie on that continuum will help you communicate with your partner.

So, if you're a leap-first person and you're partnered with a firm-footing-only person, you can take that into consideration, just like your kids were able to do, and see that their questions are not about discounting your idea at all but that they're trying to make the idea work for them.

So remember, often our work is to not take things personally, but to see that our partner's actions or behaviors are trying to meet a need. And so, then we're learning about one another and we're learning about how to approach these conversations. So, even when you have two different styles, you can find ways to come together honoring each other. That starts with setting any defensiveness aside and trusting that the two of you will keep working to find a path forward that feels good.

You may find some unique combinations of leaping and planning or leaning on each other's strengths to get the best outcome, because so often in these situations, it's really a bit of both, right? Leaps of faith and some pre-planning that get us there. And sometimes there's certain situations that are better served by one or the other, but knowing each of your strengths puts you in the best position to get where you want to go together and helping one another. Knowing that there are options and keeping the lines of communication open helps us remain connected even if we're navigating difficult decisions or stretching our comfort zones.

PAM: Yes. Our differing personalities are such a great thing to consider when we're talking about goals, paths, and what that next step might be. It makes all the difference. And as you were sharing there, what comes to mind for me is just the experience. Each time we move through it, we're building trust with the other person. Trust that I will consider the kind of person you are. What feels good to you? What doesn't feel good to you? I'm not gonna try and railroad my answer. But I'm not going to just accept your answer either and be martyrly about it, because that's going to lead to burnout. That's going to lead to overwhelm, all sorts of places. And sometimes that happens, but then there's work to move through that and to get back to connection from there.

So, the more I can bring myself and be open and curious about other people, each time that happens, we build a little bit more trust that this process is working for us, no matter what path we ended up on. That, to me, was always one of the most fun things. Yes, there was a hard piece about the uncertainty, like going into the conversation, not knowing where we'd go, but oh my gosh, the places that we ended up so often were way more interesting and fun than the original path that I thought of.

ANNA: That's so true, but that's because we were open and created this environment where they could feel open to ask and respect and understand, and all of those pieces that weave together to create these strong, connected relationships that we're talking about every week.

PAM: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, here are some questions you might want to ponder as you explore how taking baby steps can make choices and decisions easier. It's a skill that you can definitely get better at through experience.

So, number one, does it feel like many of the day to day choices you're making are urgent? Are they really? If you haven't listened to episode eight yet about Anna's mantra, There's Plenty of Time, I highly recommend you start there.

Question two, thinking back, can you remember a time when you felt pressured (and that can be pressure we're putting on ourselves) to make a decision quickly, yet the better choice wasn't immediately clear? Can you think of a series of baby steps that might have helped you along the way? And feel free to get creative. It can feel like, oh, that's just more work. But, oh my gosh, the journey is the experience.

ANNA: Exactly. And the creativity is all a part of it and what makes it a little bit lighter, not so much weight, as we can be creative together.

PAM: Yeah. All right. Question three. Is there a choice or a goal you're considering right now that feels big to you? You don't need to know exactly how you would get there, but can you see a baby step in that direction? Can you do that and just see what happens?

And lastly, are you more of a leap-first person or a firm-footing person? What about your partner, your children? How can understanding that help you communicate with them about future decisions?

All right. Thank you so, so much for listening and we will see you next time. Bye! Have a great day!

Open and curious is a helpful mindset shift for navigating relationships and challenges. In this week's episode, we dive into Pam's mantra and some of the many ways that it has proven to be so valuable in our lives. Being open and curious takes us back to beginner's mind and allows us to see possibilities and question limiting beliefs that no longer serve us.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. How does it feel to think about being open and curious about the people in your life? What do you discover through that lens?
2. Try being open and curious while navigating a conflict this week, rather than jumping right to the solution you have in mind. What felt different?
3. Think about something in your life that you’re feeling stuck around. What bubbles up when you approach it with openness and curiosity? What other possibilities exist?
4. Next time you’re judging something your partner or child is choosing to do as “bad,” play with the question “Who would I be without this perspective? What would I do instead? How would that feel?”

ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Thanks so much for joining us as we explore relationships, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas and have really enjoyed how they've been building upon one another. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and a review. That definitely helps new people find us.

In today's episode, we're gonna talk about being open and curious. This is something you will hear us say a lot. I first heard about it from Pam and I find myself saying it daily at this point. When you think about the opposite, it's being closed and disinterested, so it's pretty easy to see why we both love it.

I don't want to move through the world feeling closed and disinterested, and it definitely doesn't help us solve problems or to connect with the people around us.

Being open and curious serves us in our relationships on a lot of different levels. When we're open and curious about our partner, we want to understand them, what's important to them, why they see things the way they do. We want to set aside any judgment and really lean into connecting with the person in front of us.

When I find myself not understanding something they did or said, I can remind myself to be open and curious about it, to not jump to conclusions, to not write a story, like we were talking about last week.

That gives us the best chance to avoid a misunderstanding. And part of being curious is asking questions and listening.

PAM: Yeah. I love this so much. I have found open and curious to be such a helpful lens to bring to my relationships. For me, it's a quick way to get to beginner's mind, which is a place where I don't feel like I have to know the answers, and I'm just curious to learn more. I often feel a sense of wonder and a childlike energy when I can get there. And it's not childish. Childlike. There's a big distinction.

So, when I'm open and curious, I'm attentive and I'm interested in hearing new ideas and new perspectives. I want to learn how the other person is seeing things. I want to learn what they're interested in and why it lights them up. And, of course, that doesn't mean forgetting about who I am.

To me, beginner's mind is about understanding that the world is richer than just my story. My story, the one I tell about myself, is definitely a vibrant thread, but it also weaves alongside the stories of the other important people in my life. And it reminds me that their story is theirs to tell and I want to listen. I want to know them, not my version of them.

And to take that metaphor just one step deeper, being open and curious reminds me to explore the tapestry of my life, which includes the people I love and care about, not just the thread of my story, thinking it's the one right way to move through the world. It's a tapestry of unique people and stories that weave together to create the bigger picture of my life, which leads us nicely into the next aspect that we wanted to talk about, doesn't it?

ANNA: It does. Because being open and curious also really serves us when there's a conflict. So often, when we find ourselves in a conflict, we have in our mind the right answer, how this needs to resolve for me to be satisfied. And unfortunately, It just rarely works out the way we plan.

If we come into the conflict pushing our agenda as the only way, we put the other person on the defensive and we end up spending a lot of time defending ideas back and forth, really rarely hearing the other person's perspective at all. And if we come into the disagreement with this open, curious mindset that we're talking about, we aren't abandoning our ideas, like you said, we're just remaining open to hearing the other person's perspective.

That energy is felt by the other person, and then they are so much more likely to join us on the journey to understand and figure out options. We're going to be committed to finding something that works. We're going to get there faster by remaining open and not tunneling in on our one perspective or idea or what the fix should be.

PAM: I know, for me, when I first heard the advice years ago to listen to my partner, it made so much sense. So, when we were navigating a conflict, I listened. But eventually I realized I was still holding tightly to my right answer, and my listening was mostly focused on picking up the pieces that aligned with my solution, right? Everything else just kind of flew by. I truly wasn't hearing their perspective. I wasn't hearing their story. I was only taking in what I thought I could use to support my agenda or my solution, that tunnel vision that you mentioned.

And unsurprisingly, we often ended up at an impasse that way. Each person trying their best to defend and convince the other that their interpretation of the situation and their proposed solution is a right one. Our conversations were energetically draining and steeped in a power dynamic that definitely strained our relationship.

So, once I came to recognize what was happening, I chose to instead try to bring an open and curious mindset with me into our conversations. How are they seeing the situation? What parts of it feel important to them? What parts feel especially challenging to them? Does that make sense alongside what I know about them as a person, all the things we talked about way back in episode three that make them the unique person they are, their personality, their strengths, their weaknesses, sensitivities, all those pieces?

And in these more open conversations, with defensiveness down and curiosity up, there was space for me to share my thoughts and perspectives, not with the energy that this was the solution, but as more information to consider. And without that grasping and no longer feeling like the only choices we have are their initial solution or mine, we could often find a third or a fourth or a fifth path forward right through the situation that took each of our perspectives and needs into consideration.

So, it turns out that open and curious mindset not only gave me the space to learn more about what was going on, it also gave me more space to get creative in finding a solution that worked for everyone involved.

The process is like a muscle that gets stronger with practice. With each experience, where shifting to being open and curious helped us creatively navigate a challenge or a conflict, it became a bit easier to shift the next time, and then the next. Over time, I found myself shifting more quickly from defending myself to trusting that we could find a way through together. Being open and curious just helps me in so many ways, in so many situations with so many people.

ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. I see it in so many different ways and I feel like it's one of those tools we can cultivate that gives us something to do instead of taking things personally when we're in a conflict. And that is so key when we want to navigate those conflicts with more ease and connection.

And this idea is also really important if we find ourselves stuck or with some limiting beliefs. Often this involves outside voices or some cultural constructs that maybe aren't serving us. And if we bring that open and curious mindset to it, we can start asking questions. Where are these ideas coming from? Are they serving me? Who would I be without them? What other options can I find?

But we can only get there if we open up our minds beyond the parameters that are being applied to us by forces that don't know who we are or what's important to us. This allows us to start questioning these societal constructs. So, if I'm in a job that I don't love, why am I still here? What's stopping me from leaving? What would life look like if I made a different choice? How would that feel?

And also things we view as "have tos". We talked about this a few episodes ago as well. We can start to question those have tos. And being open and curious allows that exploration to move us away from things that aren't serving us, the things we've just accepted even if we don't like the way they feel. "Relationships should be this," you know, "School looks like this," "Being successful looks like that."

All these ideas are worth questioning, especially if we're wanting to live our best life, a life where we can truly thrive.

PAM: Yeah. When we realize that we can question everything, that we can be open and curious about all the possibilities, I swear it just feels like the whole world opens up. I feel so much lighter. And it's fun that you mentioned that. One of my favorite thought experiments is to play with the opposite perspective to see how it feels, particularly when I'm feeling stuck or frustrated.

So, say the story I'm telling myself is, I hate that my kid wants to play video games all the time. In my head, it's fascinating to explore the question, "Well, what if I was a person that loved that my child is excited to play video games all the time?" So, being open and curious means letting the likely immediate reaction of listing all the reasons I think that's a silly perspective just float on pass, because that's definitely not being open and curious, and then just noticing what comes up next. How would I feel in those circumstances when I saw my child happily playing?

Well, I think I'd be happy too, because I like this. I'd probably have a big smile on my face.

And then I was like, okay, so then what would I do? If this was something I loved and I was excited about, I'd probably join them, sitting with them, and watching them play. I'd listen attentively to what they shared. And they'd probably be really happy that I'm showing an interest in something that they really enjoy. I'd cheer with them when they beat the boss or finished the level or solved a vexing puzzle, and we'd celebrate together.

So, I have that vision in my head, and then maybe it would occur to me to ask myself, so what's wrong with that? It sounds like I'd be seeing their game playing through their eyes, which definitely helps me better understand who they are. And it sounds like a very connecting thing to do, which is something that I want to do. So, when I play with that thought experiment, so often I discover that things aren't as bad as I imagined them to be on the other side. And I can ask myself, why was I holding on so tightly to my fear and judgment of the thing?

It's just a great tool for me when I'm feeling stuck around what often turns out to be a conventional message that I've absorbed, that once I take some time to play with it and dig a bit deeper into it, I discover it really doesn't make so much sense to me in my life in this moment.

ANNA: Exactly. And I think it's so interesting that we can find ourselves defending and enforcing ideas because we think we're supposed to, yet, when we choose to examine them, we find they don't serve us or our relationships at all. And that open and curious mindset allows us to tune into ourselves and evaluate ideas related to who we are and how we want to move through the world.

Another time I use this idea a lot is when something bad happens, especially something that I might initially label as bad. Instead I can say, hmm, I wonder what's going to happen here. I wonder what's coming next. I don't have to have all the answers. I don't know all the things.

So, being curious allows me to look for new directions around things that might first be considered roadblocks. I don't want to be shut down by what happens to me and around me. And the fastest way for me to avoid a spiral is to start asking questions and look at the issue with a wider lens, not jump into the judgment about it.

PAM: Yeah, that makes such a big difference. When you can just know that there are other possibilities. We talked about that tunnel vision, and we can especially feel that when something is going wrong or bad around us and we can get really fixated and pulled into that. But when we can take a step back to start asking questions around it and just looking a little bit bigger picture, that really keeps the possibilities bubbling.

ANNA: Right, and I think it's related to the things we've talked about with time. There's plenty of time. Because that's the other thing. You feel the expansiveness of that open curious mindset. So, when something happens, instead of locking in and the judgment, you can feel that expansiveness of, hey, I can take a few minutes to kind of look at this from the wider perspective. So, I like those inner things that we can find energy shifts, because that's what can help us move through any of these challenges, bumps, conflicts, whatever, with a little bit more ease.

PAM: Exactly. The energy is the whole thing, because the energy is, is ours, but it's also the energy that we're bringing to our interactions with everybody around us. It's so helpful.

ANNA: So, here are some questions you might want to ponder as you explore the idea of being open and curious this week. How does it feel to think about being open and curious about the people in your life? What do you discover through that lens?

Number two, try being open and curious while navigating a conflict this week, rather than jumping right to the solution you have in mind, and then look at what felt different. How did that change how that conflict played out?

Think about something in your life that you're feeling stuck around. What bubbles up when you approach it with openness and curiosity? What other possibilities exist that maybe you didn't see at first?

And next time you're judging something your partner or child is choosing to do as bad, play with that question. Who would I be without this perspective? What would I do instead? How would that feel?

So, hopefully you'll take some time to think about those questions and about what an open and curious mindset could bring to your life. And we really appreciate you listening and being here with us today, and we will see you next time.

PAM: Yes! Bye.

This week on the podcast, we're exploring the power of story. Humans are storytellers. We choose the stories we tell about our lives. In every situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it, and they're all a version of the truth. But we get to choose which version resonates the most with us, which one feels better to us, and then that informs our actions moving forward. Getting curious about the stories we tell can be an amazing form of self-care!

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

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1. What stories are you holding on to about yourself, your partner, and your family?
2. Where are the stories coming from? From your parents during your childhood? The outside voices of society? Somewhere else?
3. Do you see the story in your self-talk? How else might you tell that story?
4. How does it feel to realize that you get to craft your own stories?

PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are very happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

And in today's episode, we are going to talk about stories, both the stories we tell ourselves and the stories we assign to other people, meaning what we think they're thinking. And yes, it can get very messy.

Now, this episode is a bit longer than usual, but we think it's worth it. Stories are intricately woven into our relationships with the people that we love, and that's because humans are storytelling animals. It's how we make sense of our world. In the book The Storytelling Animal, How Stories Make Us Human by Jonathan Gottschall, he wrote, "Story is for a human as water is for a fish - all encompassing and not quite palpable." I love that so much, because story truly is everywhere. And the language we choose makes a profound difference, because the stories we tell ourselves become our self-talk. That is why we want to be intentional about the language that we're using.

And what's really fascinating is that for pretty much any situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it and they can all make sense and all could truthfully tell the story of that situation. And the thing to realize is, we get to choose which one resonates most and feels better to us, which then informs our actions moving forward, which calls back to our conversation in episode seven about how every moment is a choice. Stories and choice are woven together so well, aren't they?

ANNA: Oh my gosh. So much. For me, truly understanding the role of story has been so pivotal. That awareness allowed me to step back and observe, so, where's this story coming from? Does it feel real to me and who I am in this moment? Is it serving me? And if I've held onto it for a long time, why? Why have I held onto that story? And who would I be without it? That's one I love to think about. Who would I be? What would it feel like?

Because there's an energetic feeling to that. What do I feel without this story that I'm telling about myself or these people in my life? And those questions really can only come about once you take off the veil and realize that everything is a story. Then I get to dive in and have these questions. And through the questioning, I can hone in on what is really working for me.

And then I can start to change my story to be more reflective of me as the person I am now, the person I want to be moving forward. And I could see the role of story more clearly and use it as a tool instead of being held hostage by it, which is kind of how it felt before.

And for me, like you said, language is such a big piece of that. I try to be so intentional about my language that I use, whether I'm defining some kind of big event or a very simple task in front of me, because in that language is choice. I'm developing the story that informs my day and tells others who I am. And so, that piece is so critical to me, just seeing it for what it is. And then, how do I want to create my narrative? What language do I want to use to describe it? I like thinking about it. 

PAM: Yeah. And once you see the scope of it, it's incredible, because it's not only the stories that we're telling ourselves, but it's understanding that the stories we're telling others about ourselves and about our lives is the picture that they're going to draw from. That's where they're going to meet us.

So, first, let's look at our self-talk, at our inner voice. Sometimes we don't think we have control over our self-talk. It just appears in our head, the words over and over and over when we're spiraling over something, right? But we truly can change that over time as we make intentional changes to the language that we use and the stories we tell ourselves.

It is worth taking the time to listen to our self-talk a bit more objectively, to just ask ourselves, is this a helpful story for me?

ANNA: Right, because we have the self-talk, and we don't think we can change it. I think that's something I believed when I was younger. It's hard to change or we're given this story that it's hard, but I think we may assign it more importance than perhaps serves us. So, I love the idea of really diving into that, because self-talk is just an aspect of our story. It's no different. It's no more powerful. And it's not this boogeyman that it's kind of made out to be.

And sometimes our self-talk is the stories that have been handed to us, perhaps by our parents or past relationships. And what's so important there is to realize that the stories they told, even if the story is about us, is their story. It's not ours and we don't have to take it in and own it. It's about them, where they were at the time, the stories that perhaps they were handed.

And so, that's the thing, right? We can just keep continuing to hand down these same stories or we can take control of our own narrative. We can look at who we really are and what's actually in front of us, and then write a story that lifts us up, because that helps us be the person that we want to be and it will inform our next steps in a given situation. And I think that's what's so important about it. That's how insidious stories are. When we carry these stories from someone else, they change our energy and then they inform our next steps, and it keeps us on this same narrow path.

But at any moment, we can take back the reins. We can examine the stories that we're clinging to and we can make choices because yes, Pam, it's always about choices with me. We're going to keep bringing that up.

PAM: Yes. Definitely. I love the point about realizing that the stories other people are telling about us, especially the stories we grew up with, are just somebody else's perspective. It's their story. So, maybe we've absorbed the story that we're too sensitive, or we're scared to try new things, or we're very shy. That isn't our story. It's their story about us. And we get to choose our own story.

Speaking of, it's also helpful to realize that goes both ways. So, for example, take a moment to consider the stories we're telling our partner about our day. Maybe we're more likely to take it as an opportunity to vent. "I am so tired," or, "So many things went wrong today." Is that what I want to convey? What will their view of my day look like from my story? Maybe that I'm so tired because I was busy having fun playing with the kids, or deep in the flow of working on a favorite project or knocking a bunch of those tasks off my to-do list.

Maybe more things unusual went wrong today precisely because I was working a to-do list that was filled with those iffy jobs, and I got them done in the end. But how will they see my day through my venting words? Probably not as the ultimately satisfying day that I saw. So, understanding that the stories I tell, big and small, live on in the world reminds me to be more intentional. Now that doesn't mean not venting, but maybe prefacing it with a quick qualifier. Like, "My day was great. I just want to vent about a couple of things."

It means considering who I'm speaking with and choosing my language to better convey the meaning of my story. Is what I'm saying true? Is it how I want to be seen by others? What do I need or want from the conversation? Because stories are the lifeblood of communication.

ANNA: Yes. And I think it's interesting, too, thinking about that. What do I want to get from this story? Because if we do come at our partner with all the things that have happened in the day and then they come back trying to solve things and really we're like, "Wait a minute, it's just a story we're telling about how we had these tough things," you know? So, keep all that in mind. It's the lifeblood of communication. I don't think that's an overstatement. I think that's really so true.

And so, keeping in mind that others will see our story through their lens, what they know, and that's okay. Understanding that helps us put their comments or reactions into perspective as well. Back to everyone is different. We see and experience the world differently.

PAM: Yes. And that is absolutely a wonderful thing. We have control over our stories and what pieces we choose to share and how we choose to share. Understanding that other people come to conversations with their lens, too, so, not expecting them to fully understand what it looks like through our eyes and not even expecting them to even be curious to understand. We can't control where they are on their journey.

Now, I also want to talk about the stories that we assign to other people, because so often we tend to assume the worst story. For myself and many others that I've spoken with, when we're feeling disconnected from someone or they react negatively to something we've said or done, the story we immediately tell ourselves is that we did something wrong, but often that really isn't true.

It's so helpful to remember that, when we're thinking about what someone else is thinking, that is a story that we're making up. No matter how well we know them, we still don't know for sure. So don't assume that the first story that we jump to is the same story that they see. 

ANNA: Yes. So often, we find ourselves putting words into people's heads, and we will actually play out the scenarios till the end without the other person involved at all. "They're upset with me. I did something wrong. They don't like what I'm doing," whatever the words were saying. Even, "They're trying to hurt me. Their actions are intentional towards me." So often, we get that very wrong. We really don't know what's happening in another person's head.

I have a friend that will honestly just create entire movies and the challenge with that is, it doesn't leave room for anything else. Once you've created a story for someone, you start acting from that place with that energy. So, if you've ever had one of those dreams where it's so real, your partner has done something terrible and really upset you, and you wake up and you're still super mad and they're going like, "What is happening? I just woke up. I don’t know what you're talking about!"

But it's the same when we create a story. We can buy into that energy and bring that energy to the person and they have no idea where it's coming from. But instead, if we can first assume positive intent, second, we can ask questions and leave space and remain open, then the person's free to share what they're actually feeling. And so often, it does not come close to the stories that we're making up.

So, I have a friend and a while back, she shared a story and she didn't share it as a story. She shared it as a fact. She said that her husband didn't find her attractive. And she said, "He actively avoids even touching me when we walk each other past each other in the hall." And I was like, "Oh, wow. Have you talked to him about that?" And she was like, "Well, no." And then when she did, she found the complete opposite was true. He was trying to be respectful of her space. So, he felt by moving aside in the hall, he was showing respect for her space and honoring her.

And so, then they had this conversation around what would feel good to each other and how they want to move forward. And it's very different now. But she had been telling that story for years and he had no idea. That's just how insidious these stories are. And I think it's just really worth examining the stories that we put on others, even when we feel it's justified, even if we think we know them so well, even if we've held onto these stories for years. Conversations are so important. Being open and curious. Leave space for people to tell us who they are. Pre-writing a detailed story does not.

You can feel that closed energy when you come in with this pre-populated story and it's so disconnecting. Even some light inquiry can shed light on what's really going on and give space for each person to share their perspective. And then we can understand where the communication broke down in the first place and why maybe we're seeing it differently, but that won't happen if we stay in our head creating stories. That will only happen with that choice of connection and that choice to have some conversations.

PAM: Yeah, sometimes I can get stuck in a really negative story about someone else, and I just don't feel confident enough to ask about it yet or bring it up. But when that happens, I found it helpful to just remind myself that it's a story and then start to play with that. How else might this story go? What about this? Does that fit? Maybe this? So, once I think of a few other things, even if they seem outlandish to me right now, I realize that there isn't just one possible story. It wasn't just the one thing that I was clinging to and being upset about. That lightens things up for me.

And usually, when I'm feeling lighter, now I can get curious. Which one is it? I want to know now. And then usually I can get to the space, the energy, where it doesn't feel so heavy and I can actually bring up the conversation with them. I can actually go, "Hey, what about this? What did that feel like to you?"

On the flip side, moving through that process over and over helped me realize that I really don't know what's going on in another person's life that has led them to make whatever choice it is that they made. That's their story, their truth. That's been a very helpful discovery on my journey around stories, just that realization that these are stories. My story, their story, it's their truth in the moment. And that is just enough. I can be curious then. It reminds me that there are multiple ways that things can go.

ANNA: Right. And there are just always more layers, I think, to peel back on our stories, which kind of leads nicely to this last bit we wanted to talk about. We get to choose the stories we tell. And we touched on this back a bit back in the choices episode, but I want to bring it up again. We choose the stories we tell about the big things like our childhood and the little things like the grocery store. And in every situation, there are things that are easier and harder, that work or don't work. But we can choose to focus on those aspects that make sense and feel better to us.

For any situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it, and they all make sense in the context of the activity, the situation, the people involved, and they can all truthfully tell the story. But now, we get to choose which one resonates the most with us, which one feels better to us, which then informs our actions moving forward. That's the power of story. 

PAM: Right. Especially in more challenging situations, it's so valuable to take a moment to not just jump in with the first story that comes to mind, which is usually fear-based. And it's usually the worst one, the worst interpretation of things. And if we just stick with that one, we can get tunnel vision and start spiraling downward in our fears. We can get really stuck there if we only see this one worst interpretation of the situation in front.

So, instead, take that moment to come up with a few more stories that align with the situation. If we don't take the time to consider other stories, we're not really making a meaningful choice moving forward, are we? You can't choose between one thing. And choosing more positive stories, ones that feel better to us, isn't about avoiding the truth, because the different stories all incorporate the facts. But for me, choosing the more positive story is really a form of self-care.

Instead of telling myself over and over the versions that make me feel bad, that weigh me down, that pull me into that tunnel vision, I can tell myself the versions of the story that both make sense and feel better. Because from there, I'm in a more open and curious and receptive mindset, a place where I can now see more opportunities. I can be more creative in choosing my next step and my next moment is truly better. And I find myself then starting to spiral upwards, moving through it, rather than spiraling down and crashing and just feeling crushed.

ANNA: And getting stuck! So, my oldest daughter and I talked about this so many times over the years, because she is a master storyteller. And, I mean, it's a gift. It is a gift that she has and it is amazing. But sometimes, it gets the better of her, because sometimes she can spin this really intricate story about someone else or about a situation, and it ends up making her feel terrible. But in the end, it's just a story. We're making it up in our heads.

And I think once I realized that, I decided, if I'm going to make up a story, I'm going to make up a story that feels good, one that helps me feel connected, that helps me move forward as the person I want to be, which is exactly what you're talking about.

So, I want to examine if my story spirals me into a place of being stuck, or if my story is lifting me. I may not understand all the pieces, but I can feel okay about the situation if I look at it this way, and that helps me move forward as the person I want to be. And like we've talked about before, there are situations sometimes where I can get some clarifying information so that I can get a more accurate picture, because maybe there's someone else involved and I can stop putting words in their mouth and actually figure it out.

But other times, like you said, it really isn't even possible. When it's not possible, I just always want to choose the story that feels better, because it's just as likely to be true as the one that doesn't. And so, I'm just wasting the time in this moment feeling bad about something when I really don't even know the full story. And so, that's why I love that you tied it into self-care, because that's exactly what it is. It really is just this intentional choice to look at what's in front of me and find a story that feels good.

And again, it's not about pushing the other things aside. It's not about pretending that things didn't happen or changing the story. It's just intentionally using language that makes me feel good about what's happening around me. So, for me, if it's a particularly challenging or difficult situation, it's not about pretending that the difficult situation didn't happen, but I look for, how have I moved through it? Look at the amazing support I've received from the people around me. Look at how loved I am because they've helped me through this situation. Look at what I've learned about myself from it.

Whatever the situation, I can always find a way to frame it to use what can be a challenging situation to make myself feel better and to move forward from there. And so, that's also an empowerment piece, knowing that I can turn these situations that can completely derail me into situations that just boost me forward and allow me to be around the people that I love and to connect with the people that lift me up.

PAM: Yes. And another layer that I think would be helpful for people to peel back, and I am still peeling this layer back, but, why is our tendency to take on that weight? Why does it feel like the more positive spin or the silver lining is it cheat? It really is not. And we can do that work to peel back those layers and to realize that these are all stories, they are all versions of the truth. They could absolutely all be true.

ANNA: And I think this part is related to the stories handed to us by society. Things like, life is suffering. Only hard work pays off. Relationships are hard. And so, when you find this cheat, you're like, "Wait a minute. Maybe it doesn't have to be this hard. Maybe I can be enjoying it," but then you might try to stop yourself. Like, "What? But we've been told that forever!"

But no, set that aside, because we don't have to make situations more difficult. There's going to be plenty of things in life to work through, but when you can find joy, when you can switch that focus, see the light, find the gifts in the situation, life is just so much more enjoyable. But we do have to shed some of those stories from society, some of those stories from even other people in our lives, in order to create what feels good for us.

PAM: Yeah, I love that. I mean, "Life is hard." Don't we hear that all the time? But then, if we tell a different story, the reaction can often be like, "Well, you're a Pollyanna. You're not seeing the truth." Another story. Right? It is just so useful to work through all of that.

Now, you and I have both heard, "You guys are always so positive," and people think it's weird at first, which is okay, because it's part of the process of peeling back those layers and understanding that our stories are ours to tell and there's more than one way to tell the story. We don't always have to take the negative, life-is-hard bent on it. 

ANNA: Right. And the reason I'm telling the story is for me. It's not to put on a show or make anything look different for somebody else from the outside. It's because it helps me be the person I want to be.

It helps me in my relationships. I remember one time somebody said to me, "I get it now. I get that you're not just a Pollyanna about life. It's that it helps you have these relationships. It helps you move through these situations." And I'm like, "Yes, that's absolutely it." I'm not thinking about anybody else's reaction to me choosing joy or finding light in a moment, because that's my internal work.

Now, I'm understanding that it can come across that way as people are listening to it, but I'm like, "Oh, no, no, no. This is just a tool." It's a tool that helps me connect with people. It helps me move through my days in a way that feels better to me. And it's just a choice. And I think if somebody wants to play around with it, they can see how it feels for them, too.

PAM: Exactly. Exactly. And I find it helps me be more creative. It helps me come up with more possibilities. And that's the thing. You can try it out for a while and you see how it goes. And I do suspect you'll start to see things that wouldn't have happened in the other mindset.

ANNA: Yeah, it's really true. And I do think it's so interesting and we definitely get feedback about that.

I mean, I definitely get that. "You're always looking on the bright side!" And I'm like, I feel all the things, but it's just, again, those stories we create, it impacts how we move forward. It impacts how we see all the things around us.

So, let's talk about some questions you might want to ponder for this week as you explore the idea of stories. First, what story are you holding onto about yourself, your partner, and your family? And that's a lot. So, that one may take a few minutes, because we have stories that have been handed us from childhood and on. So, there's a lot of stories there.

Where are the stories coming from, from your parents during childhood, from outside voices of society, somewhere else? Identifying where, I think, is so key to realizing and taking your power back there, to realize, I don't need to own their story. That story's not about me at all.

And so, do you see the story in your self-talk and how else might you tell that story? Self-talk again, it's kind of this bugaboo that we're unsure about. How do we change it? But I think the first step, don't you think, is just identifying it, just recognizing it as a story.

PAM: Yes. Recognizing it as a story and, like in the previous question, where did that story come from? Is it really my story or is it something that I've absorbed over the years? It's someone else's view that I've adopted because they can really feel like that's our story, That's our self-talk, because we should be more productive, we should be efficient. "I should be able to do this quickly," or, "I shouldn't be so sensitive." There are just so many stories that we've absorbed over time that are really somebody else's view. And to check in and start asking ourselves and see, well, does that make sense to me? Do I feel sensitive all the time? What's wrong with being sensitive? There are just so many questions and layers do with that.

ANNA: And you know I love, who would I be without that story? So, feel that. Who would I be without telling that story about I'm so sensitive or I can't get anything done whatever the thing is that people have handed to us. So, yeah, so interesting.

And finally, how does it feel to realize that you get to craft your own story? And so, I think it, I think that may take a minute, because it's just realizing, Okay, do I get to write it? Because I think, again, some people think it's a cheat. But it's like, no, you really do. You really get to pick the things that you like and craft that as your own personal story, even when there's tragedy, even when there are bad things that have happened. There are things to look at that we can just say, yeah, but this is who I want to be and this is how I went through those tough times, and this is what was surrounding me during that. And so, that we can hold onto that part of the story as well.

PAM: Yeah, and I think that's one of the big things that I want to share with people is that these are true moments. This isn't stuff that we're making up. We're not saying, ignore all this hard stuff that's going on around you.

It's, as you said, a tool that can be helpful in moving through those seasons, moving through those emergency moments, all those pieces. For me, it is so incredibly helpful for me to move out of that fight or flight tunnel, which can be super helpful in the moment. But we get stuck there so easily. This is a tool that really helps me move through that. I just find it's become such a useful tool, because I know I'm more creative on the other side. I move through things with more grace and just more compassion and kindness for other people that are involved when I can help myself with this tool move beyond that tunnel vision and the that whole fight flight emergency response when things go wrong. That's helped me.

ANNA: It will be fun to see what people bring up about stories. So, thank you so much for listening and we hope to see you next time. So, take care. Bye-bye.

PAM: Bye, everyone.

Let's dive into black and white thinking. While it's common to see things through the lens of right and wrong or good and bad and to look for someone or something to blame, these polarizing paradigms are damaging to relationships. Real relationships and real life are more nuanced. They exist in the gray area.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. How does it feel when someone puts their ideas of right or wrong on you?
2. Do you notice an area where polarizing paradigms are impacting an important relationship? How would it feel to let it go and lean in to understand?
3. How do you feel when someone blames you for something and you don’t see it the same way?
4. Have you seen judgment impact a relationship with someone you love?
5. How would it feel to let go of black and white thinking and dig into the gray with the people in your life?

ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Thanks for tuning in to explore relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

So, in today's episode, we're going to talk about moving beyond polarizing paradigms. Right/wrong, good/bad, blame/fault. These are all paradigms and it's pretty interesting when you start exploring if they are serving us or hindering us in our relationships with others.

So, I love teasing apart the ideas of right and wrong, because on the surface, it seems like a simple and very useful concept. And I think it can be when it's applied to our own personal journey. What feels right to me? What doesn't feel right? How do I want to act in the world? Who is the person I want to be in the world?

It's when we start to try to impose our ideas of right or wrong or act as if there's one definition, one definitive definition, that it really just stops learning. Standing staunchly in what could feel like a very justifiable position stops learning. Instead, we can ask, why does someone have a certain belief or act in a certain way? Why do some people agree with it and others don't? How can we move beyond that thought to start looking at the people involved?

And even more importantly, looking at the needs behind the behavior. What's driving the behavior? What's driving the action? And as we lean into that, we learn more about the person and perhaps gain new insights into the whole situation, insights we wouldn't have seen had we stayed stuck in our position of there's one right way.

And so, when we just look at behavior and judge it as right and wrong, we're losing this chance to connect with the person in front of us, be that person, our child, a friend, our partner. We're losing our chance to understand their motivation and the need behind it. And it's in that place of refraining from judgment that we can choose connection and understanding. If the behavior is impacting us, I guarantee you the fastest way to stop it while still remaining connected is to address that underlying need. Because once the need is addressed, the offending behavior no longer serves a purpose and it just falls away.

PAM: Yes. Judging another person's behavior is so often disconnecting, and that's precisely because it's a surface level perspective. Digging in to find the underlying need they are trying to address with that behavior hits so many more connecting notes between us.

We learn more about them. They feel more seen and heard. The challenging behavior fades. And there's much less need for any relationship repair at the end of it all.

And another situation where the idea of right and wrong can cause upset in relationships is in how someone else chooses to do something. So, beyond behavior, is there really a right way to pack the dishwasher?

ANNA: Maybe!

PAM: Or to fold clothes or to play with a toy? Surely there are ways that are right for us. We absolutely have our preferences, but we can take that too far when we expect others to do things the same way that we do. It's like when we expand "right for us" to mean "right period."

Of course, sometimes those other ways just kind of grate on us, like utensils the wrong way up in the dishwasher. I have found it helpful in those moments to remind myself that the way they are doing it probably feels just as right to them as my way feels to me. That is always such a good reminder. I still use it all the time, just as a way to process.

And I also sometimes ask myself, well, if I believe that my way really is the best way, am I willing then to be the one who does the task? Or might I instead choose to be just grateful that someone else has done it? Either of those choices is more connecting in a relationship than trying to control another person's actions. The relationship is my lens. It's my priority. I'm also going to bring those considerations into my self-talk, into what I'm thinking about the situation or the rub that's happening.

ANNA: And then it boils down to choices, too. Am I going to choose this dishwasher being loaded this way versus this relationship? Am I going to put that above? And so, I think it's just really interesting to play with those ideas and really walk yourself through it, versus when we get stuck in that, "No, this is the way," we have this shrapnel that has injured lots of people around us from that.

But it's kind of the same, too, with the ideas of good and bad. So, again, that boils down to a judgment, often a snap judgment, of how something or someone fits into our ideas of how things should be. But we're talking about humans here. As we've discussed before, humans are complex. They are different. And they absolutely resist fitting neatly into boxes.

So, if we go back to behavior and we label it as good or bad, we again lose sight of the need that they're trying to meet. And we do it a lot with children. "You're a good boy if you're doing this thing I want you to do, and a bad boy if not." So, you're a good boy if you're sitting still and being quiet and a bad boy if you're fidgeting and making noise. But what if your whole body is telling you to move? What if you've been sitting for hours and you just can't do it anymore?

If instead we look at the need, we don't have to judge the person. We can help them figure out how to meet the need or to see if the environment is not the best place for them right now. And what that does is develop a person who doesn't see themselves as good or bad based on outside opinions, but a person who can listen to their body, state their needs, and find solutions that work in the environments that they're in.

PAM: Yeah. And for me, this, this whole area, it was a realization that people really are different, as we talked about in episode three, and I love that it keeps coming up in most episodes. That realization helped me ease up on judging other people through my personal lens of good and bad. I could see the choices that felt good to me didn't necessarily feel good to others. And if I wanted to understand their perspective, I needed to learn more about what was going on.

And when I have relationships as my priority, I really do want to understand them better. These are my loved ones. These are the people I choose to have in my life. I really do want to understand them better. And I want to help them process through whatever is feeling off for them, finding solutions that feel good to them.

Again, in the context of those deeper connected relationships, the framework of good and bad is surface level and limiting. The real world is so much richer and messier all at the same time.

ANNA: So, much richer, so much messier. And like you said, that's where the learning is, though. Sticking to cut-and-dry, one-right-way answers just shuts down learning and connection.

Another thing we do is we tend to judge situations as good or bad. And so, I'm just going to pop in a quick paraphrase of the Taoist farmer story who says that maybe might be a more useful idea? And so, to paraphrase, the farmer's son lets out their one horse. The village says, "What bad luck!" "Maybe," says the farmer. The horse returns with the herd of other horses. "What good luck!" they say. "Maybe," says the farmer. The son breaks his leg working with one of the new horses. "What bad luck," they say again. "Maybe," says the farmer. The army comes to the neighborhood to conscript the young men. His son isn't taken because of the broken leg.

So, life is filled with events. If we spend our time judging each one as it comes along, we take ourselves out of the moment. We don't know how things will unfold, so let's just face what's in front of us without judgment. That keeps fear out of the equation. It keeps us squarely in the moment, and that is the only thing that we have control over anyway.

PAM: I love that point. When we're judging all the things that are happening around us, that thinking takes us into our heads and it takes us out of the moment. And the other piece is, we lose our sense of flow, not literally flow moment to moment per se. But as the story tells us, flow over time. Things in the world are connected. That is another thing that culturally, we stumble around. We're very much, "Here's the thing in front of me today, going to do it efficiently, productively, it's done, good, bad, however," and then just move on to the next thing.

But there is a thread that connects so many moments over time and it's so interesting just to keep that lens. It helps us realize we don't need to judge all the things, because maybe it might be helpful along the way.

ANNA: And for me, that thread is really a trust in the unfolding, that I may not see it all now, but there's a thread and it's unfolding and I don't want to be judging each thing as good or bad, because I feel like it derails. And I just want to trust in that unfolding.

I think it's important to realize that when we're judging other people or their actions, we're missing this opportunity for deeper understanding. And what usually ends up being a pretty thinly-veiled ploy for control, often, when we're judging. I think it's important to look at that for a minute, because when we're judging someone's action, what is our goal? What do we want to happen? Do we think it will help our relationship? Do we think it'll change what they're doing? Maybe. But how will that feel?

And so, then to flip it around, how does it feel when someone's judging us? Does it make us feel closer to that person? Does it make us want to change our behavior? Most likely, it makes us want to pull away or double down, even if it might not serve us. Judgment really has no place in our relationships. In its place, though, we can use inquiry. We can have this genuine openness and desire to understand, because like you said, these are our most important relationships. I want to understand them. I want to know what makes them tick. I want them to feel good about how we're moving forward.

That keeps us connected as we learn more about each other. And it also allows a place where our concerns or ideas can be met with curiosity and not defensiveness on both sides, because that's the environment that we're cultivating.

PAM: Yes. Because judgment really is all about us, right? 

ANNA: Oh yeah.

PAM: It is about how we're seeing, what we want to happen. But a connected and loving relationship is about both people. I also love and often use the thought experiment of flipping things around to see how I would feel if I was on the receiving end of things, because it doesn't feel good to be judged. And I notice that my defensiveness rises, leaving me with little space to consider changing things up and learning something new. "No, I'm going to defend this. I'm going to hold on maybe even longer than I would normally if I wasn't feeling judged."

I am much more apt to be open and curious when someone approaches me with information without that side dish of judgment. As you mentioned, that just feels so much less controlling. It feels like we're on the same team. We're going to try and figure this out. You just brought me some new information. And you gave me this space to like hear it, bring it in, and see if it makes sense to me. It's not controlling anymore.

ANNA: Right. Exactly. Now you're open, you're curious, you're learning, you're both learning, and how different is that? You can learn from each other. I think when we're feeling judged, it really puts up a wall to what they're saying. What they're saying might be helpful, but not when it's delivered with that side dish of judgment. We're not even going to hear it.

And so, again, these are our most important people. We want to stay connected. So, yeah, just so important to keep in mind.

Okay. So, the blame/fault matrix is another paradigm that is so common in our culture. It's really easy and at times comforting to lay that blame on someone else. If you didn't do this, think like that, act like this, X wouldn't have happened. The problem is, when we focus on blame, we never look at our role and we never dig deeper into the whole situation. We're never getting to that underlying need on either of our parts.

And blaming is just a surefire way to create a rupture in a relationship. No one wants the finger pointed at them. It makes us feel that this love that we have is conditional. If you don't way behave the way I think is good or right, I'm going to blame you for things that have happened. I'm going to withdraw my love potentially. And again, it's just that judgment and blame. It just creates craters in relationships. I believe ruptures can be healed and that a repair is super important, but we don't need to just keep creating them. Let's just try not to keep creating them!

PAM: Absolutely. That is an important part of a relationship, the repair, because things aren't always going to go smoothly, but we don't need to keep setting ourselves up for these challenges. It's just so fascinating to think about how urgently people look around to find someone to blame when something goes awry.

We all want to. "It's not my fault. It's not my fault. No, no, no." And how often once we find someone to blame, that's the end of it. We want to move on. It's not really surprising then when it keeps happening over and over, because we're not really learning anything that we can bring forward with us for the next time.

Instead, when we approach the situation with the energy that we're all on the same team, we can empathize with our partner or our child or friend about the upset. Because chances are, they aren't particularly happy about it either. We can listen to them, support them as they process things, and brainstorm with them about different things they might try next time. So, just think about how you'd like others to help and support you when something you do goes sideways. And just try that. How would it feel for me if someone did this? Well, let me try doing that for someone else when things go sideways with something they've done or said.

ANNA: Oh my gosh. We all just want to be held in those times when things go sideways. We just want to be understood at least, or have somebody not pointing the finger at us, because we know what we've done half the time. You know what I mean? We don't need that outside judgment. We really just need somebody that's like, "Hey, where do you want to go from here? What can we do next? How can we fix this? What can we do?"

And so, it's just such a different energy to bring and I think especially because we're talking about our most important relationships, it's just worth that work to find that kindness and compassion. So, yeah, so important.

So, for me, all the things that we've talked about today and lots more out there, fall into the idea of black and white thinking and life and for sure relationships are lived in the gray and I really feel like so much suffering and so many relationship issues boil down to this black and white, right and wrong thinking. There's not one right way to do or be. There just isn't.

We make the choices we make in each moment based upon all kinds of factors, including very changeable things like how much sleep have I had, or food. Understanding the context of the moments, the needs of the individuals involved, and cultivating that open and curious mindset allows us to learn and to grow. We can develop deeper relationships, because they're based on the understanding that we're doing the best we can in each moment, and that our behaviors are trying to meet a need.

So, when judgment is set aside, we can look at all the factors that make up the context and keep connection at the forefront. We can talk about our needs and the impact something is having on us with an eye to understanding one another and to work together to find solutions that feel good to us both. So, I decided to look up antonyms of "polarizing" when we were naming this episode and their unification, connection, and attachment. And I thought, oh yeah, that really sums it up, why I choose to let go of paradigms that don't serve me in my relationships, why I choose to remain open and curious. Because being connected in meaningful ways to the important people in my life is my highest priority.

PAM: Yes. I think when we see polarizing ideas, things that divide people into two opposing groups, like right and wrong or good and bad, that is a great clue to dig deeper. Things are rarely that simple, especially when it comes to relationships with the people we love. As you said, Anna, life is lived between those two poles, in the gray. And while sometimes that can definitely feel more nebulous, it is also, as we've mentioned, so much richer and it's more connected with the real human beings that we're choosing to be in relationship with. Celebrate the gray.

ANNA: Absolutely. Okay, so let's talk about a few questions for pondering this week.

So, how does it feel when someone puts their ideas of right or wrong on you? I think it's just always good to flip this around. So, just how does it feel? Because we've all had it happen. So, how does that feel?

Do you notice an area where polarizing paradigms are impacting an important relationship? How would it feel to let it go and lean in to understand? And I think there's lots of times now where we have these polarizing beliefs that happen. What would it feel like to let go of the rightness of your position and just lean in to try to understand where that person's coming from?

PAM: I want to bring back, how you mentioned open and curious, and I love how that helps us here. Letting go of feeling right isn't about replacing it with, "I'm wrong."

ANNA: Right. Or changing your mind at all.

PAM: Exactly. It's more expansive. It's bigger. It's about being open and curious to see how else other people are seeing things or feeling about things.

ANNA: We just learn more. Again, it may not change our opinion, but maybe it gives us more information about the situation. Or maybe it's the "through their eyes" that we've talked about, too. We see why they got there, because their life is different than ours. Their experiences are different.

So, letting go of that strong-held "right" just opens up. Again, it doesn't mean it's going to change your opinion necessarily, but I think it will give you a lot more information about the people around you. So, number three. How do you feel when someone blames you for something and you don't see it the same way. So, that can just give you some good clues about how blaming at any time never feels good, no matter what. If the person thinks that they're very right, that blaming just doesn't feel good.

And number four, have you seen judgment impact a relationship with someone you love? And so, I think that's really good to dig in. And I would say if you have children, really look at that, too, because I think we do tend to lean into judging children about how they're spending their time or what they're doing and how that is impacting the relationship. But you'll also see it with your partners and friends and extended family. So, where's judgment coming into play? See where it's coming at you, see where you're putting it out there, and think about what it would feel like if you could let that go.

PAM: I think that will be a huge one, too. Because even if we're not sharing our judgements. Maybe we take that first step, okay. I didn't say it. At that point, we could start to notice that we may still have an energy about it. We may still be bringing that piece. And most people can sense that, children can sense that.

ANNA: For sure.

PAM: People can sense when we are bringing a judging energy. And our questions, they feel less open and curious and more pointed when we're asking questions.

ANNA: Right. And we're less willing to even talk about it. I think we're less willing to even share our perspectives with people when we feel that judgment coming at us. So, think about that in reverse with people. Why are they telling me this? Because, well, if they're sensing judgment, that may be stopping that conversation right there.

PAM: Because you don't want to be giving them evidence is what it feels like.

ANNA: Exactly. Right. Because you know they're sitting there waiting for like, what can I judge you about the situation? So, yeah, that's not the energy we want with these people that we love. That's not at all. And it's absolutely something we can change, even if it's something we've done historically, we can absolutely change it.

And part of it would be this. So, number five, how would it feel to let go of black and white thinking and really dig into the gray with the people in your life, to trust that they're doing things for reasons that make sense to them and learning more about them, letting go of these really strong polarizing paradigms?

So, I think it will be interesting to steep in that for a little bit and see where it's impacting your relationships and how that could possibly be different. 

PAM: I think that can be just such a fundamental mindset shift and it's internal. It's something that we can completely just play with ourselves for the first while.

ANNA: We don't have to make any declarations. We could just play around with it. How does it feel and, "Okay, yeah. I do like the way it feels to just be more open and to not be judging everyone around me." And I remember someone in my life before telling me that she found her judgements of everyone else was because she was so harshly judging herself. And so, once she could get to that place of not harshly judging herself, she had no need or desire to judge the people around her. And so, that's another piece to kind of turn around and look at as well.

So, we hope that everyone is enjoying their holiday season and hopefully some of the ideas we've been discussing will even make those big family gatherings a bit more enjoyable. Thank you so much for listening, and we will be back in two weeks. Take care. Bye!

PAM: Bye!

This week, we're focusing on one of Anna's favorite mantras, "There's plenty of time." It's so common in our culture to live our lives with a sense of urgency, always feeling like we're in a rush—it's almost a badge of honor. Yet that energy can so often damage our relationships as we put pressure on each other to move quickly and follow a certain agenda.

When we realize that we actually do have the time to consider our options, to communicate about everyone's needs, and to take the bigger picture context into account, we can give more space to both ourselves and our loved ones to figure out solutions that feel good to everyone.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. When you imagine the idea that there’s plenty of time in the context of a disagreement with a friend, partner, or child, how does it feel? Expansive? Overwhelming? Just plain wrong? Why?
2. Do you recall a time when an issue bubbled up again and again because you didn’t take the time up front to more fully understand it? 
3. Where in your life do you feel time pressure? What if you could release that? How would that feel?
4. Can you think of a time when feeling time pressure interfered with coming up with a creative solution to a challenge?

PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are thrilled you're here and interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

And in today's episode, we are going to talk about the idea that there is plenty of time. Now, it has been such a helpful tool for me over the years when navigating challenges with the people I love, and I believe I first heard about it from you, Anna!

It's amazing how so many things that come up in our days can feel like emergencies, like they need to be solved as soon as possible. I think taking a moment to consider whether the situation at hand is a true emergency can help us release so much of the time pressure that we're feeling. Reminding ourselves that we have plenty of time gives us more space to explore the root of the issue, rather than throwing Band-aid after Band-aid at it just to quickly solve it. "I gotta get this, I gotta move through it." It's so fascinating just to consider having plenty of time.

ANNA: Yes. Oh my goodness. So, it has been one of my main mantras for a very long time. Our society likes to operate with this extreme sense of urgency about everything and I get caught up in that really easily. I feel like time pressure is just a huge trigger for me that kind of sets me on this path of not thinking and just being really stressed out.

And the thing is, I like to get things done. I like to check boxes. I like moving on to the next thing, and that can have its place. I can be super productive. But what I found was that carrying that sense of urgency around all the time did not help with my relationships at all. It takes time to navigate things in a relationship, and if you stop and take a breath, you can ask, is this really urgent? Is it an emergency? Does this need to be solved right this second? And often, you'll find the answer is, no. It does not need to be solved right this second. I can calm down.

PAM: Right? And I find that even when we recognize that it's not an emergency, I feel that time pressure can trigger our need to perform, if that makes sense. As I was thinking, it's like, okay, yes, this is not emergency, but then boom, I still want to perform well. I want to solve it quickly and efficiently. I want to get an "A" in problem-solving, to be productive, because those are strong cultural messages we hear so often. But are they actually helpful goals in and of themselves, particularly when other people are involved?

Another question that I found very useful to ask myself is, are we looking for future approval or validation about how we handle the situation? That's that performance piece, maybe from a person that we anticipate telling about the situation in the future. Are we looking at that more than we're looking with care and compassion to the other person in front of us who's involved?

And yes, being someone who jumped straight to problem solving for many years and still works on it, another consequence I found was that solving a problem quickly was often shorthand for implementing my solution, which relationship-wise, often meant pushing through the other person's consent. And maybe not even obviously pushing through it, but more so by not even slowing down to ask them for their thoughts and ideas. Instead, just presenting my solution with an energy of, "Of course this makes sense and you'll agree. Let's do it."

But I came to see that that approach definitely took a toll on my relationships, on my connections with the people in my life. Their trust in me dwindled because they felt less seen and heard by me over time, because I wasn't asking them what they thought. I wasn't asking them for their ideas. I was just saying, "Oh yeah, look, this happened. We can do this instead. Let's go." Just pulling them along with my energy.

ANNA: Exactly. And as you'll hear us say so many times, everyone wants to feel seen and heard. So, anything that's short circuiting that is going to be an issue. And that's the thing. When we are holding speed and efficiency and production ahead of people and connection, it's going to take a toll. Period. And again, I like to be efficient and get things done. So, this isn't about just stopping all the things, but for me, it's about being aware of the energy I'm bringing into a situation.

And if another person is involved, am I taking the time to really hear them and understand them, especially if we're talking about our most important relationships? It's key to avoiding conflicts and misunderstandings to give ourselves time to really hear one another. And I'm one who likes to fix and solve and to be fair, I have some very good ideas, Pam.

PAM: You do. You do. 

ANNA: But no one wants to be dragged along, even for my really good idea. And so, remembering what we've talked about in the past on the podcast, how different everyone is. We see and process the world differently. So, my really good idea might be a really good idea for me and not for the person I'm in relationship with. But if I push through their consent with this intense sense of urgency, it ends up just leaving us feeling so disconnected.

PAM: Yes. And when I'm feeling time pressure, particularly self-imposed time pressure, I've found that I am much more apt to take that conventional straight-line path from A to B to solve the problem, because it feels like a race against the clock to me. But when I can realize that that's happening and remind myself that there's plenty of time, I feel more expansive and free to be curious. I feel I have the space to more creatively navigate a challenge, because you know what? And that's fine, too. If it was just me, I could take my straight-line, A to B and do it and move on, but as I chat with the other person or the people that are involved, I can give them that space and just slowly map out what's going on. There are signposts of everyone's needs.

Maybe there's lines of trees representing the constraints that we're discovering. Maybe environmental constraints, maybe time constraints, maybe capacity constraints. Maybe there's hills for aspects that feel a little bit harder. And flower gardens or some beautiful art in spots that we'd like to pass by if it works. And from there, once we kind of start to fill in that map, we can more fruitfully begin exploring paths through the space of the challenge that hit most of the need sign posts, navigate around many of the hills, and maybe even take some time to stop and soak in the view of a sunflower field in bloom.

I know, maybe that sounds a bit sappy. But in my experience, our lives are so much richer when we give ourselves the time and space to be open and curious about the situation, to chat and ponder a bit more to get creative.

ANNA: Yes. I love that image. Honestly, I can feel my body slowing down just thinking about it. And so, I think finding what helps you stay present in the moment and slow yourself down. Even to notice the sense of urgency and slow it down. So, what kind of imagery, what kind of breathing, what kind of things in the moment help bring you down? And again, that mantra of, "There's plenty of time," this vision of a map of all the possibilities we have, like whatever that is.

And I think another aspect of peeling back the layers related to this is to look at where is the sense of urgency coming from? What is its purpose? Who is it serving? And asking those questions really helped me kind of deconstruct this a little bit, because the truth of it is, when we're rushing from task to task, there's very little time to question anything.

And I think sometimes we think that sense of urgency is coming from within us, but I don't think it is. I think we've been trained to rush, to value efficiency and productivity above all else. And I think humans naturally want to connect, and the two just don't really work well together.

So, the question for me becomes, do I want to sacrifice or harm my relationships so that I can be a better producer for society? And I would argue that people in strong connected relationships actually bring more to the world and end up producing the most amazing things. And so, how this looks in practice for me is, when I find myself feeling frustrated or trying to rush someone along to my chosen outcomes, I just stop and I take that breath and I say, "There's plenty of time." And I feel it. The energy instantly changes.

And if I'm still struggling, I will ask myself, "Where is the sense of urgency coming from? Is it even real? And is it helping? Because even if we feel there is some real time constraint, there is some real thing that's driving it, is it helping me make the choices in the moment? Is it helping the two of us get through this situation? Because if it's not, we still need to set it aside, even if it's a real thing, because we're not getting anywhere.

And, as I mentioned, so often this applies to our relationships with both kids and adults. Rushing a child out the door frustrated or pushing a partner to get something done on a timeline without regard to their experience of it, it just doesn't feel good to anyone. So, reminding myself there's plenty of time just grounds me back in that moment.

Because the truth of it is, if we're five minutes late, if we miss the thing altogether, if the project doesn't get done, the world does not end. Most likely, a year later, it'll be hard to even remember what the issues were. But if we continually push past the people in our life, if we push them along this arbitrary timeline, it will absolutely impact the relationship, and that's something I want to avoid.

Again, back to priorities from episode one, I want to keep my relationships as the priority. And if what's being handed to me by society is in conflict with that, then I want to question it and ultimately set it aside.

PAM: Yes, exactly. With relationships as my priority, I want to use that lens as I navigate my days. And it's fascinating to discover how often cultivating connected relationships is at odds with the societal messages that we hear or even just infer from how people are moving through and navigating their days all around us.

ANNA: So true!

PAM: The immense value given to having power and influence over others, the call to create strong boundaries to protect ourselves from others, the importance of being productive members of society at the expense of others, it is just so interesting to think about how relationships, while talked about so often as being an important part of our lives, in reality, are often expected to take a backseat.

So, with that, here are some questions you might want to ponder as you explore the idea that there's plenty of time.

Our first one is, when you imagine the idea that there's plenty of time in the context of a disagreement with a friend, partner, or child, how does it feel? Just bring that idea, that lens of plenty of time in. Does it feel expansive? Does it feel overwhelming? Does it feel just plain wrong? "No, I don't have time." "Why?" is a great question to ask yourself at that point. What is it that's making me feel like I don't have time in this situation?

The next question is, do you recall a time when an issue bubbled up again and again because you didn't take the time up front to more fully understand it? I find things can bubble up and we can solve them. We can put that Band-aid on them. But if we don't take the time to get to the root of things and really find out what the underlying need is, or play around with the process through which we move through things that come up regularly in our lives, we can just see it happening again and again.

ANNA: I think that one can help people that have the efficiency piece, because really it is more efficient to take the time and deal with it and to actually figure out how we want to move through it, versus the plugging the holes or the Band-aids that we end up having to revisit and revisit and revisit the same challenges.

PAM: Exactly. Exactly. It is so interesting to think about that, that we think we're being efficient, we think we're being productive, but so often, maybe it bubbles up over and over, but maybe it has relationship implications that I have to spend time with later. So, you can start to discover that it's really a choice of, where do I want to put my energy in the process? In the space up front or into the, going through it again and again.

Okay. Okay. Question three. Where in your life do you feel time pressure? What if you could release that, how would that feel? I think that could be a big one, too. And if you release that, how would that feel? And where is it coming from? Is it something that I am putting on myself? Because so often, it's something that we're doing.

ANNA: So often, it's something we're putting on ourselves that again, we kind of think is coming from somewhere else, maybe our job, or maybe school, or maybe something else.

But really when we look at it, it's our interpretation of that that's putting this super intense sense of urgency and time pressure on it.

PAM: Yes, yes. And sometimes we're just feeling that we have to bring somebody else's framework or approach and be the voice of them, whether that be society or a boss or a teacher, and that I have to be them now, because they're not here to say it, but is that how I really feel?

All good stuff. Okay. Our last question. Can you think of a time when feeling time pressure interfered with coming up with a creative solution to a challenge? And this is one I just would love people to think about, because what I discovered over time is that even when it is just me, it can be so useful to take the space not to just go with A to B, the first thing that comes to mind.

I have found there are so often more creative ways that that feel even better, that may be even more fun. There are so many possibilities. So, when I just let myself play with these things, take that time pressure off myself of something that I need to do, like the bathroom thing. It's like, just do the damn bathrooms and get it done. I can tell myself that story, but it's so much easier or so much more fun when I can just give myself some space to play with it.

ANNA: Yeah. And I think the time allows us to bring in the context that we talk about so much, because if we're just going point A to point B, we're really missing a lot of context around us. And then that can inform us, because again, maybe it helps us make a decision that saves us some work down the road or that keeps a relationship intact that we might be running over. And so, taking that time for ourselves to take in that context, to me, just makes it easier, more fun, and a lot of times, even more efficient.

PAM: Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Thanks so much for listening, everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye!

This week on the podcast, we're exploring the choices that we have in every moment. It's common in our culture to look at our lives in terms of "have-tos," but staying in that space takes away our agency and our joy. By getting curious about our have-tos, we can figure out what is really important to us and play with ways to make the things we do more enjoyable.

And in difficult moments, when it really feels like terrible things are happening to us, we still have the choice of how to respond, what story we tell about our situation, and what energy we bring to it. Realizing how much choice we have can be so empowering!

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. Do you find yourself saying “I have to” a lot? Can you find any patterns around when you see it happening more frequently?
2. How does it feel to think about having choices in each moment?
3. What helps you find your center when moving through a challenge?
4. What choices do you see around the stories you are currently telling about your life?

ANNA: Hi, and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We're happy you're here and interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

In today's episode, we're going to talk about choice. I love talking about and grounding ourselves in choice, because life is filled with choices from the mundane to the epic. And for the most part, it's an invisible process. We're making decisions on the fly throughout the day. Other decisions are made with a lot of deliberation and forethought and take a lot of time, but the ability to choose is something that empowers us. The knowledge that, no matter what, we have a choice.

PAM: Right, and that is so surprisingly easy to forget in the moment. I can find myself moving through parts of my day almost by rote, and sometimes that means I'm in the flow of things, feeling good and accomplishing things I want and choose to do. And other times things start to rub.

When I start hearing myself say, "Oh, I have to do this," that feeling that I don't have a choice is a good clue that I'm probably feeling a bit overstretched or under-resourced, and it's a great clue to step back, take a breath, and just take a moment to look around a bit.

It's so easy to fall into the "I have to" trap, because it is used so much in our culture. The phrase "I have to," or, "You have to," has become so commonplace that we've mostly stopped questioning it altogether. It just seeps into our everyday language. We say we have to go to the store, we have to brush our teeth, we have to go to bed, and so many more things. And soon, we start to believe that we have to do all the things, that we don't have a choice, that we are, in fact, prisoners to a long list of have to's.

And not only that, when we come to feel that we don't have choices and buy into this whole "have to" ethos, it's usually not long before we start to feel pulled to impose them on others. "This has to be done and you have to help," which then can lead to judging others around the things we think they have to do. Like, "Why aren't they doing this thing I don't want to do, but have to do?" It is so disempowering and disconnecting.

So, taking a moment to look at a situation, any situation, even small everyday ones, and noticing that choices actually exist helps us let go of that overwhelming feeling of being trapped in our days. It reminds us that we have agency. We can use phrases like, "I have to," or, "You have to," as red flags, signs that it's a good time to step back and see where we're feeling pinched, where we're feeling controlled, because definitely those things can sneak up on us bit by bit.

And then, we can dig deeper to identify our underlying needs, find the choices in the soil of the have to's and shift things up to meet our needs in ways that don't include controlling others or even using control tactics on ourselves. Realizing that I always have choices has been such a freeing and empowering mindset shift for me. It's just been amazing.

ANNA: Oh my gosh. For me, too. It's been such a critical part. The shift from feeling like life is happening to me, to understanding my agency and navigating this thing called life. It's funny, I have a good friend whose husband does not buy into this idea at all. So, he believes, “There aren't always choices, Anna,” but I find it so interesting.

And one of the examples he used was, “Well, we have to do the animal chores in the morning.” So, they have a small farm, donkeys, goats, chickens. And here's the thing. They don't have to do that. They could choose to re-home the animals. They could skip the morning chores or do them later. I know the lap of luxury these animals live in and they would be just fine. They could also hire someone to do the chores for them.

There's always a choice and with each choice, we hone in on our priorities. They don't want to re-home the animals. They love them. They love bringing the special treats in the morning and moving the donkeys to the track to watch them play and run. They don't have to do those things. They want to. And maybe they decide it's not worth the money to pay someone else, or in that choice, they realize that they actually enjoy it and might miss it and don't want someone else doing it for them.

And so, then it's like, okay, so if we're feeling pinched about time, in that exploration, they might find they'd rather free up time in another way, adjusting something they don't enjoy as much. What a different feeling than to feel we're held hostage by an obligation. And maybe it's just semantics and energy, but I really think it's worth examining our language about any of these have to's and deciding if that language is serving us.

Is it helping us find joy? Is it helping us enjoy the things around us? Could examining it as a choice help us understand what we actually want to do and how we want to spend our time and resources?

PAM: Yes. I think what can happen over time is that we make a choice and then it's new and exciting.

We relish it. It's fun. And then, over time, we shortcut our language down to, "I have to."

For me, it feels like as the activity becomes more commonplace in my days, "Every morning I've got to go take care of the animals," my internal language becomes more efficient. "I have to take out the animals, I have to take the dogs out," all the all the things. "I have to go grocery shopping, I have to clean the bathrooms."

And I think the word obligation is a great way to describe that feeling and the growing weight of it. And I think we can naturally start to resist that obligation and maybe even start to resent it. So, if our internal "have to" language doesn't catch our attention, eventually that growing weight of obligation or resentment definitely might. So, time to dig in and see what's in there. What's the rub?

And what's so interesting is so often digging in helped me remember my why. So, you had that wonderful example about the animals. I'm going to take a quick moment to look at cleaning bathrooms, because it is a very basic example. But to give you an idea of ways to dig into those festering feelings.

So, I can remind myself that I enjoy the feeling of walking into a clean bathroom. If I realize that's even feeling a bit stale for me, I can start there. So, maybe I choose to spruce up the bathroom a bit, bringing in a plant or two, or some art for the walls. Maybe I print out an inspirational quote or two that makes me smile, or a couple of pictures that make me laugh and I tape them to the mirror. How can I more enjoy walking into this mostly utilitarian room?

I find that is such a fun way to look at things. It's like, cleaning the bathroom, what do you mean decorating it or whatever? But that is a wonderful aspect to look at, too.

I can also contemplate the cleaning schedule that I'm holding myself to. There are no bathroom police that are going to come and arrest me if I don't stick to it. So, what if I change that up, extending the period between deep cleans? How does that feel? I can try it out and see. That's something you can always play with and is likely to change over time, depending as the number of people rise and fall.

So, just because we've done it weekly for years doesn't mean it has to be weekly forever more. That frequency may well change over the seasons of our lives.

And we can look at the how. How can I make it easier for me to slip into cleaning? Can I keep the cleaning supplies in the bathroom ready to grab quickly? That may mean having more supplies up front, but they each last longer, because they're only being used in one bathroom. So, it works itself out. Can I make the process itself more enjoyable? I often put on my headphones and listen to podcasts or sometimes upbeat music to help my body get moving. Or we could also choose to pay for cleaning service if that's an option. There are just so many possibilities.

So, after taking some time to dig in and discover what's really rubbing for me, so often, I still do the thing. I clean the bathrooms. But my internal language is much different now, because I remembered how much choice and agency I have. It may not be the most fun I'll have all day, but I remember why I want to do it and I've made the process more pleasurable, particularly the bits of the process that were rubbing me the wrong way. My internal language is lighter. Maybe even, "I want to clean the bathrooms today," rather than that obligatory weight of, "I have to."

It's so fascinating to see that we can find choice even in the most mundane bits and pieces of life.

ANNA: And just how different it feels when we do. I mean, those choices all along the way. And I think the money piece that I talked about is a really interesting way to check in. So, do I want to pay somebody to do this? Does it have that value or is it not that big of a deal? Is my time more valuable there?

It's playing with it, asking questions that we talk so much about. It just opens up instead of getting stuck in the weight of the have to's. So, yeah, I love that, because again, I just really think it helps us hone in on our priorities and get back to that why, like you said, and then we know, okay, I got these animals for a reason and I like having a clean bathroom and that's why I'm doing it for me. Whatever those things are, getting back to that why.

PAM: Yeah. And I love that priority piece. That was episode number one, because that is so foundational, playing around with our priorities and the time that we've got, the things that we want to do. We can always bring it back there to realize that we have choices with all the things that we think are on our plate.

ANNA: Yes. And it just really changes things. But I do want to talk about times when it feels like there really is no choice, that life has happened to us. There's a tragedy, a death, a loss of something that's out of our control, because that's going to happen to all of us. It's certainly happened to me and realizing I still had the choice of how I react made all the difference in moving through those difficult events. No, I couldn't change the fact that the job was lost or the injury happened, but I could decide how I was going to let that impact my mood, how I was feeling, and how I wanted to move through the world.

So, for me, that helped me to put things into perspective and to feel again, that life wasn't just happening to me. I've had some pretty difficult things happen to me over the years. We all have, but the times I'm able to ground back into who I want to be, how I want to learn from what's happening around me, and how I want to find joy, even in the darkest moments, those were the times that I moved through the events with the most ease. It's not easy necessarily, but with more ease than when I was fighting and bucking against the reality of what was happening.

And, for me, gratitude was a big part of that. Finding those little spots of gratitude is a choice, and I found that I could find them even in the darkest of days. And with that choice, that first move towards looking for the tiny points of light, the shifts would start and new ways forward would present themselves.

PAM: Yes, definitely. Things happen in our lives that are out of our control. Times where we find ourselves just reacting to things. It can feel like our life has come to a standstill with this big thing. And for a time, that can definitely be helpful, because it needs immediate attention, right? Yet moving through these challenging events often takes time and staying stuck in that emergency mode can have its consequences.

So, for me, once the initial shock and overwhelm began to ease a bit, I found it helpful to gently remind myself to come back to the present whenever I noticed myself getting stuck in my head with my swirling thoughts. Because in the present, I slowly began to notice those bits and pieces of life that are happening around me. Those spots of gratitude, as you mentioned, Anna, even small ones, like how the light comes through the window, a moment of connection with my child that makes me smile. Continuing to bring myself to the present, soon I was open enough to start to see more possibilities, new ways forward that I couldn't see when I was like stuck in tunnel vision. I began to see choices.

ANNA: Yes. And that's what it's all about, finding our way to just seeing the choice in the moments. And so, this leads to another area where our choices influence our perspective. And it's an area where we often give away our powers. And it's, we tell our own stories. We're the creators, we're the writers, we're the orators of these stories of our lives.

And digging into stories is so important to us that we're going to do an entire episode on it in a couple weeks, but I think it's worth talking about it right now in this context of choice and seeing how it's playing out in our days, because our stories have a way of defining us for ourselves and for others. For ourselves, they become this sort of self-talk. If that talk is negative and full of worry and distress, then we can become that. If that talk is positive and full of joy and gratitude, then we become that. We start to embody it.

For others, it colors the way they see us. They trust that our story is our truth. And if that truth is steeped in frustration and anger, then we can attract the frustrated and angry, because it's that whole misery loved company thing. And if that truth is infused with joy and gratitude, we tend to attract the people that are looking for joy and gratitude. And I've found that, for me, where I put my energy is the areas that I'm growing. And so, I just want to be really aware of that. And so, again, it just boils down to this choice. How do we want to spend our energy and what do we want to attract with it?

PAM: Yeah. The stories we tell ourselves and those around us have such a big impact on us. So, I am really looking forward to diving into that idea more deeply in a couple of weeks. But it is also a great lens to consider when we're thinking about choice, because if the story we're telling ourselves and the people around us is that we don't have a choice, that we have to do X, Y, Z, that's most likely going to be the one we all run with. So often, we treat our stories as facts. "This is the situation. Now where do we go from here?" And that's where people join us.

So, if our story is grounded in frustration and full of have to's, that's where they join us, often sharing their frustrations and just generally tossing around in the muck with us. Back to that misery loves company. But if our story is steeped in choice and possibilities, that's where they'll jump in with us. Oh, that is a big change. Best of luck with that. Have you considered this? They're just generally more supportive and helpful. And both stories can absolutely be true to the facts. But we get to choose which one we tell ourselves and others, which one feels better to us in the moment. And that is not a trick question. Sometimes what feels better is to vent, right?

But it is absolutely helpful to remember that it's a choice and we don't need to stick to that version of our story forever.

ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. We can change a story when it stops serving us. That's another big revelation. Like, "Oh, this story I've been hanging onto, I can change it up." So, lots to consider there.

So, we're going to leave you with a few questions to ponder.

First, do you find yourself saying, "I have to," a lot? Really listen, because actually we don't even always notice it.

PAM: That's so true.

ANNA: Tune in. Can you find any patterns around when you see it happening more frequently? And kind of like you talked about, Pam, it tends to be those under-resourced moments, where we kind of start clicking off the have to's and the giant list and all the things.

How does it feel to think about having choices in each moment?

PAM: So, I think that'll be a big one. You don't even have to like move forward with it, but just take a moment to think, "Oh, what if I had a choice?" If you can't see a choice yet. But it could even just be how does it feel to think about, "Oh, what if there were choices?" And that I think can be the first little baby step.

ANNA: I'm so curious how my friend's husband's going to think about some of this stuff, because he listens to the podcast. And so, what does it feel like to just think, but what if you did have a choice? What if you let go of that story that you don't?

So, another thing is, what helps you find your center when you're moving through a challenge? I think that can just be really helpful, because we're going to keep getting challenge. So, helping people understand what helps us move through that, what helps it feel a bit more with ease, what helps us find that gratitude, whatever it is that feels good.

And lastly, what choices do you see around the stories you are currently telling about your life? Yeah, that's going to be good. Because we're always telling stories. If you're sitting there listening, going, "I don't know if I have stories," no, you do. You have stories. And let's look at them like, because these can be things we are carrying with us for a long time. And again, check back in a couple weeks when we really dig into stories as well.

So, just thinking about this idea of choice, I think is just interesting. Play with it. How does it feel? What feels better? How does it work? So, yeah, I think it's going to be fun.

PAM: Yes, I think so, too. And that stories one, too. As you said, if you don't think you're telling stories, I think just take a pull back and instead of choices around the stories you're telling yourself, think about, what stories am I telling myself? Just start to look through the lens of story and see how that feels. See what you see. I think it'll be so interesting to dive into.

ANNA: Thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye-bye.

PAM: Bye.

The idea of boundaries comes up pretty often in conventional circles, often through the lens of self-care, encouraging people to set boundaries with their kids, their partners, their parents, and so forth, and to stay strong in defending them.

But in this week's episode, we're digging into the language of boundaries and exploring some alternative ways of communicating our needs and learning about the important people in our lives.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. Think of a boundary you hold right now with your partner or a close friend. What might be gained from having some conversations around it? Might it give them some more helpful information about you? Could it help you feel more seen and heard in the relationship?
2. How does the idea of using comfort zones to better understand and communicate your needs land with you?
3. How often do you operate outside of your capacity to thrive?
4. Can you think of times that you didn’t trust someone else’s definition of their capacity? How did it play out? Did it impact your relationship?

PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully podcast. We are happy you're interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

And in today's episode, we are going to talk about boundaries, comfort zones, and capacity. And it may end up being a bit longer than usual, but we are really excited to have this conversation. There are some big paradigm shifts around these ideas that can really have a positive impact on your relationships.

Now, our focus with this podcast is on cultivating connected, trusting, and respectful relationships with our partner, with our children, with anyone we choose to have that level of a relationship with. And we soon discover that that means deeply understanding ourselves so that we can more gracefully navigate the edges where we engage with others. So, that's really the foundation of this conversation.

And to start with, let's dive into the idea of boundaries, because it comes up pretty often in conventional circles, often through the lens of self-care, encouraging individuals to set strong boundaries with their partners, for their parents, to set boundaries with their kids, and just to stay strong in defending them.

And the motivation behind that idea makes a lot of sense. It's to encourage us to not be manipulated into doing things that we don't want to do. That makes a lot of sense. But the solution proposed of setting and defending boundaries can often create challenges and disconnection in our relationship. Can't it?

ANNA: Yes! I just don't find the boundary language particularly helpful. So, the energy of it feels very final and it has this feeling of drawing a line in the sand and, "I'm going to defend that line to the death," and also that somehow, I'm letting myself down if I don't uphold it, which is just this double whammy coming at us.

PAM: Exactly.

ANNA: So, the alternative I found is to look at the moment in front of me, to be honest about where I am, what I can do in that moment, because it changes. There are things we can't anticipate about the situations we're faced with.

And I think, especially with my loved ones, I want to have an energy of curiosity and connection. Standing on the other side of an intensely drawn boundary just doesn't have the same feel to me. And this could be a language thing. I'm definitely a word person and I tend to respond energetically to words. So, I look to my language to help me cultivate the energy I want to bring and the person I want to be in a situation. That's why these words are important to me and why I really love teasing apart these nuances.

PAM: Yes, yes. I find it very helpful to consider my language, as well, including the language I use when thinking or talking to myself. When I use the word "boundaries," does it mean a hard stop to me? When I envision someone approaching it and approaching me, am I looking at the line or am I looking at the person?

Because what a pre-drawn line doesn't do is consider the context of the moment. Am I feeling resourced and centered? Are they? How's our day been going? What does their request look like through their eyes? What does it look like through my eyes? What constraints may be at play? Can we get curious together about ways to navigate it this time?

Because I think one of the things we worry about is, if I do it this time, I'll have to do it every time. "There's that boundary. I moved that boundary and now it's forever there." But that is not true. We are not giving tacit permission forever more. We're chatting with them about this particular moment and that is how we learn more about each other.

ANNA: Oh my gosh. Exactly. And keeping in mind that context keeps it from feeling arbitrary to the other person involved as well. We're reacting together to the context of the situation, and that's where the learning's happening.

And I do think boundaries can have a place when we're faced with toxic relationships. This can be friends or even family from our family of origin. When a relationship is harming us, when we find ourselves tied in knots thinking about it, when we see it impacting our mental health or happiness, boundaries can be a helpful step to distance ourselves enough to see the situation more clearly. Even that doesn't have to be a forever step, but it can be a self-preservation step to gain perspective and to decide if this relationship is one that will work for us going forward.

But if we're choosing to spend our life with someone, I truly believe that boundary language just tends to shut down communication. It doesn't leave room for finding solutions that feel good to both parties. And I think it's important to realize that this is not about not expressing or meeting our needs, but when we do it in relationship, it looks so different.

If we want to have a consensual relationship where the parties involved are heard and seen and we find agreeable solutions, standing behind a hard boundary can get in the way of that. And I've found that I can honor who I am and still be open and curious to finding solutions that feel good to everyone involved.

PAM: Yes! I think that is such an important distinction. We're talking about relationships with the people in our lives with whom we want to cultivate strong, connected, and trusting relationships.

So, when it comes to extended family or people at work, a boundary can be a useful tool to quickly communicate our needs to someone. But with those we want a closer and more intimate relationship with, a boundary can get in the way of that. We tend to pull that out instead of having a conversation.

But it's in those conversations where we come to better understand each other, where we cultivate connections, where we build trust. That space is where relationships flourish.

ANNA: Yes. And so, another thing that I've noticed, I call the pendulum. For much of our early life, we're basically subject to others in a variety of different ways. We're told what to do, how to do it, often subjugating our needs and preferences. And somewhere along the line, often in our thirties and forties, we have this awakening and we realize, "Wait a minute! My needs are important here, too!"

And so, you can go into this intense period of advocating for your needs. And I think this is when the strong boundary language that we hear around really resonates with people. "Yes! This feels awesome!" But I've also seen that as we get a bit older that things soften and we realize that we don't have to defend our needs to the death, that we can honor ourselves and honor another, and that solutions are really there to be found.

And I want to say very clearly that there's no right and wrong about this. There's no timeline about any of it. It's just an interesting pattern and I think it can help to be aware of it and maybe watch for it. Are we swinging way over here? Do we want to come back maybe more towards the center? See how it's feeling as we play with unpacking any baggage we have in this area.

And I think pretty much all of us have some baggage in this area.

PAM: Yeah, no, I do love the metaphor or the image of the pendulum, and absolutely it can be a valuable part of our journey, a helpful part, to swing right up to the very edge, because then we're gaining experience with what that feels like, and we notice the pieces that aren't working.

And when we understand those kinds of patterns, it can be helpful for us, too, to help us recognize where we might be on the journey and use that information to help us just decide where we want to go next.

But I do love that idea of the patterns and just paying attention, because, for me, I enjoy looking for that and seeing those bigger picture patterns of how things flow.

And you mentioned the baggage that we can bring. Because, for me, as I thought about how the idea of boundaries feels for me, and thinking back to when I was first playing around with this, I realized that I grew up steep in the conventional culture of competition. So, as I started thinking about this myself, that's one of the places I went.

So, when I thought about how I anticipated engaging with others in terms of boundaries, it really spiked my defensive energy. As soon as I was feeling defensive, I saw the other person, whether it was my child, partner, whoever I was engaged with, I saw them as the opposition. Like, "You're the enemy, because I need to defend this boundary. This is a win-lose situation."

And time and again after having brought that energy to many a conversation, just like you were saying, I learned through experience that when I did that, especially with someone that I love, that perspective and energy just hindered our interaction. It got in the way of us moving forward.

I noticed that my defensiveness raised their defensiveness, which meant that we were both less empathetic. We were just defending harder and harder. And we were each just focused on our own bits and we were only seeing it through our own lens. We listened to the other person not to hear those new bits of information that curiosity can bring and that we notice. We were listening to them so that we could find the things that we could twist in support of the position that we were defending.

So, as I sat with the discomfort of these two seemingly contradictory ideas, "I need boundaries so that people don't walk all over me," and, "I want to be connected to this person," I came to see that, for me, the image of holding a boundary sparks that defensive energy, which negatively impacts my connection with my loved ones.

So, even a rule or a boundary that made sense to me, what it did was shut down so much rich conversation and learning and my opportunity to learn more things about these people in my life, things that I would have never discovered if I didn't have that conversation in the first place. But those conversations didn't bubble up if it was just like, "No, you can't do that. You can't do that." 

ANNA: Right. And that's the thing. We're talking about a very different style of communication and problem solving, and so I hope it's clear that as we're looking at it, because we have this one side, you the zero-sum game, defend your position at all costs. That's pretty common in our culture. We see it in governments to toddlers.

And then here, we're talking about listening, stating our needs, listening to someone else's needs, having those conversations, learning more about each other, moving forward together on the same team. It's so different, but it's so much more pleasant and so rich with the discoveries about each other and where we can go from there.

PAM: Absolutely. And what helped encourage me to have those conversations was moving away from the idea of boundaries. And instead, I started using the idea of comfort zones. And what that shift from boundaries to comfort zones reminded me to do was to bring my sense of self. So, it's not about, "I have no boundaries now, do whatever," again. It's never about taking our needs out of the equation. It's more fully bringing our needs into the moment and into that conversation without having to draw that line in the sand.

So, boundaries feel external to me while comfort zones feel internal. Comfort zones remind me to open up and lean in rather than to stand there right behind the line.

ANNA: Right. And, for me, it's that line in the sand that I wanted to avoid. And with comfort zones, I just like the feel of it, because we do talk about stretching and growing our comfort zones, and I think all of my relationships have helped me do that.

I think we can come into all of our relationships with some pretty rigid ideas of how things should be. And that can stem from our childhood experiences, the prevailing relationship ideas around us, what's being modeled for us. But those rigid beliefs don't take into account the actual humans that we're living with, how they see the world, what feels good to them, how they process information, what they want to accomplish and learn. And that's where the curiosity and the communication that we're talking about comes into play.

I don't have to stretch my comfort zone, but I want to be open to examining it, especially if it's somehow putting a limit on someone else. And so, that's why, in general, I just prefer to look at needs. If we have a situation where we're at an impasse, if we switch the focus to the underlying needs, then we have more room to find the creative solutions that feel good to both of us. So, I like the feel of that again. It's just a totally different paradigm.

PAM: It really is. And I love the way you framed that as needs. For me, that shift was that these conversations really ended up being less about the thing, the thing that we were in conflict about, and just more about the people involved, which fully included me, and that's where the needs come in.

Being curious about what the person is needing or wanting to do and understanding the motivation behind that.

Why is that the next step that makes the most sense to them? And why is that next step right at the edge of my comfort zone? Why is that needling at me? And when we better understand those pieces, we can better explain our perspective and needs to them, which gives them the opportunity to understand us better.

And then, from there, maybe they give us more information that we didn't think of, information that addresses our need. Maybe we give them a piece of information that they missed, and together we find a different way to meet their need. There's just so much more space for people to move when you take out the competitive nature of that hard line and just start playing, just start thinking, just start sharing what your needs are, what you're wanting to accomplish, and seeing where that goes. We can be so much more creative when you take that competitive nature out, I think.

ANNA: Right! Because, as humans, if we're backed into a corner, we'll defend something to the death even if we don't agree with it. It's just this reaction when someone's coming at us to start defending. But you see that very different exchange that you were just talking about. It's like, "Well, here's what I'm feeling worried about." "Oh, okay. Well, what about this then? What about that?" We're working together to try to make both of us feel comfortable, both of us feel good moving forward, and it's just so different.

PAM: Yeah, and I like how it feels, understanding that I'm choosing to stretch my comfort zone rather than naming it in my self-talk as, "I failed to defend my boundary." It's night and day how that feels. "I failed," or "I chose." And we can also choose to just not stretch, but we can choose to operate completely outside our comfort zone for a while. Sometimes a situation needs me to do something that in any other circumstances I would not choose to do, but this is where I am right now, and that's not a failure either.

ANNA: Right. And I think relationships give us so many opportunities to do that, to stretch, but also to just step outside for a minute to take care of business. But I always want to ground myself in the choice. And you mentioned it before.

So, I'm not great at parties. Again, this is a well-known fact. If David wants to go to a party with his friends, it will no doubt stretch my comfort zone. But instead of feeling pressured or as if I need to set a boundary around it, I can first ground myself in the fact that I always have a choice. And then I can also feel that choice and I can bring into play my whys.

In this case, I want to support him. He thinks it'll be a fun night. And so, with some further conversation, we can figure out a way for it to feel good to us both. Maybe for me, that's knowing where it will be, who will be there, how long will we need to stay. Should I drive separately? If that doesn't feel good, can we agree not to stay too late?

That conversation helps us learn more about each other. He's learning what my concerns are, also what my tender areas are, and I'm learning why it's important to him and what parts he's looking forward to and why he wants to go in the first place. And if I just shut that down summarily, "I don't go to parties, I don't like them," we'd miss this chance to dig into that and to find something that feels good to both of us.

PAM: Yes. And that is the beauty of comfort zones for me versus boundaries. It encourages me to actually pay attention to the moment, to the context of the moment, versus, this is my line. This is always my line.

Conversations are so much richer and our relationship connections are strengthened, not strained. I love that piece. When we have that boundary, "I don't go to parties," that's just what we pull out. But remembering my why, and everybody's why, I can support the why and the joy and all those pieces.

And there are times when I'm feeling resourced, when I'm just in a great place and I can stretch my comfort zone a bit and we can enjoy this thing together. Maybe we're not enjoying the same pieces, but we can jigger things around so that there are also pieces that work for me. That's so much richer and there's just so many more experiences in our lives, like not literally having to do things, but our worlds are bigger when we know more about each other, when we can navigate those pieces.

Okay, so there's one more aspect that we wanted to explore, and that's the idea of capacity. I feel it fits so beautifully with this conversation of boundaries and comfort zones, because sometimes we do have a pretty hard limit on what we can physically or emotionally take on in a particular moment, and it can feel a bit more definitive than a comfort zone.

So, for example, having a migraine or being very tired can definitely impact our ability to engage. So, even if we're not able to stretch right now, I think the idea of capacity just feels more informative and less confrontational. It feels more supportive of the conversations that we're talking about than a boundary or a limit, or, "I can't do this."

It quickly communicates to ourselves and to the others involved in the conversation what we are feeling that we are and aren't able to take on in this moment. It's more information about us, again. And capacity can be a great lens to use for us to check in with ourselves and just really feel what's up.

If our first reaction is, "Oh my god, no! I don't want to go to a party!" Oh, where did that really strong reaction come from? Oh, maybe my capacity's really low and I need to do something to address that. 

ANNA: Oh my gosh. Yes. Capacity just feels so much more descriptive to me and it's much more about the moment that we're in, because my capacity at the end of a long day is very different from my capacity in the morning. And there can be so many things at play that come into this piece of capacity. Sleep, money, time, illness, all of these different factors.

But what I want to do with all exchanges with the people I love is to keep us on the same side. They aren't trying to thwart me or harm me. We're all just trying to get our needs met. And as we keep those lines of communication open, we build trust in each other to work together to help meet all of our needs.

And another idea that a friend introduced to me related to capacity is that we can operate within our capacity and survive, but we might not be able to thrive. So, we're kind of on the edge of our capacity and we can physically get it done, but it might be taking an emotional toll or even a physical toll, so that when we keep choice in that equation, we can choose to operate within our capacity to thrive. We can communicate that to the people in our lives and help them do the same.

So, I can honor who I am and still support my partner or child, and they can honor who they are and still consider those around them. It's really important to me to honor someone else's comfort zone or their personal definition of capacity, even if I don't understand it or I think they could do more.

This, again, comes into play with our partners and our children. Our honoring of this helps them develop a strong sense of what works for them and their why. I want to trust their process and that they will stretch when it feels right to them. And so, maybe it's helpful next time we bump up against someone when we think they could do a bit more than maybe they are, is to consider that maybe they're operating within their capacity to thrive, not their capacity to survive. And wouldn't it be beautiful if we could all stay in that thriving zone as much as possible?

Because there are going to absolutely be times where we are pushed way outside of it to deal with an emergency or because something has happened around us that we can't control. But what if, when we see our loved one not doing something that we think they could, we give them that generous assumption that it's really just them knowing themselves, knowing that whatever it is may push them over an edge that is into survival mode versus thriving. I just love that framing of it as we look at another person and maybe, hopefully it stops the judgment.

PAM: Oh yes. I love looking at things through their eyes, which we had talked about earlier. And even when we don't understand why they're making the choices they're making, remembering that we don't need to, that it is making sense to them, even if we think that they should be able to do X, Y, or Z.

It doesn't matter. What matters and what's interesting, that's where my curiosity goes, is, "Ooh. That's feeling really good to them." And remembering that their choices really aren't about me. They are not trying to piss me off with this choice. There is some reason for them.

So, I love that distinction between thriving and surviving. Because when we honor those choices, it just gives us another piece of the picture of who they are and understanding that there can be so many reasons why for them. Capacity can be a reason why they aren't up for it or don't want to stretch or do the thing that you know that they are capable of doing sometimes.

And it's especially helpful to question the boundaries that are handed to us by society. One that we see held up often in conventional culture is, "I'm not going to do something for someone else that they can do for themselves." Oh my gosh. "They need to learn how to take care of themselves." You see it more often with children, but absolutely you see it with adults, too, that if we do it for them, we are being taken advantage of.

ANNA: But really, we're just missing these opportunities to deepen that relationship. And then what I've seen, and I know you've seen it, too, is that when I'm feeling out of sorts and I'm just not wanting to get my own water or whatever it is, both my partner and my kids were happy to bring it over to me because that's the relationship that we cultivated.

I don't want to die on a hill of, "I'm not going to do something for you, because you can do it for yourself." I do things for people all the time that they can absolutely do for themselves. I do it from a place of love and because it's within my capacity. And when it's not, I know they've got my back. And these skills are critical in all relationships, understanding it's about learning to communicate more about my needs versus expecting them to understand it or stand behind this strongly-drawn boundary with no explanation. It's just more information and transparency. The more we have, the easier it is to be in relationship. And, for me, the human experience is relationships.

PAM: It's relationships. I know. And when you think about it, the more information that you have, it is so often so much easier to find that path through those pieces of information. If I only have two pieces, "They want to do this," and, "I don't want them to do this," how do you find a path between the chasm of those two things?

But as we share a little bit more information back and forth, we're narrowing in on the path that we can travel between those. Sometimes it takes three sentences and off we go, we've got it figured out. And sometimes it takes longer conversations, maybe over days and weeks, but we can find our way. 

ANNA: I mean, it's just a quick way for me to go, "Hmm. Okay. I want to turn this around a little bit. I want to look at what's happening to get us back on the same side," because even when it feels really hard, and it may take a couple weeks to figure out something that's really big that we're trying to figure out as a family or a couple, if we're both over here together working on the problem, it feels so much better than being on these separate sides with this giant decision in front of us, and we're not really communicating about what our capacity or comfort zones are or any of those pieces. And it feels isolating and tough. But when we're together, even if it takes us time, it just feels better. It's about being open about it and examining that and seeing what makes sense to you and it's so individual.

PAM: Yeah, it's so individual. It's so rich. And as we talked about in an earlier episode, where do we want to spend our time? Do I want to spend my time on the same team working together? Finding a way? Because when you're working together and finding your way together, you're both invested in this path at the end of it, rather than one powering over another, convincing you to do it this way, or us convincing them to do it this way. But then there's tears at the relationship. And then we need to invest the work in, in repairs.

So, for this week, we have some fun questions for you to ponder around the ideas of boundaries, comfort zones, and capacities.

The first is, think of a boundary you hold right now with your partner or a close friend. What might be gained from having some conversations around it? Might it give them some more helpful information about you, help you feel more seen and heard in the relationship?

I think that's another big piece. A boundary only shares that little line of information. It doesn't share all the little pieces of me that came up with that in the first place.

ANNA: And can we really be understood if they don't understand those other pieces? They can still honor that boundary. And maybe that feels okay, but with a partner who I'm in love with and this is who I want to be with, that deeper understanding of why that is a rub for me would be so much more important to me than them just honoring what might feel like an arbitrary boundary to them.

PAM: Exactly. Without that information, it can feel like an arbitrary boundary. And absolutely, they can still respect it, but there is a richness that's missing then that's the only piece of communication.

Okay, so next, how does the idea of using comfort zones to better understand and communicate your needs land with you? Does that make sense? Maybe try that framework and that language next time and see how it unfolds. Remember, as we talked about, let's play with this. Let's see. Nothing is a forever commitment. It's like, "Oh my gosh, I'm going to try this comfort zone thing, and now I can never use any other language." No. Play with it.

ANNA: We're just having fun. We're just learning things. We're just trying to learn more about ourselves.

PAM: Yes, yes. Okay. Next one. How often do you operate outside of your capacity to thrive? Another great question, just to dive into that self-awareness piece. It may not be something that we communicate very often, but understanding it about ourselves, noticing how often we are stepping outside of our capacity to thrive more in survival mode. And then that also can help us understand why we're feeling tired, why we don't feel like we have a lot of energy, what kind of self-care pieces that we can bring in there. Anyway, it's a great question to start with. How often do you operate outside of your capacity to thrive?

ANNA: Because I think it also impacts our relationships. So, our culture values this operating at just survival mode. And so, it's something we all fall into, schools and work and all the things that we're doing. And so, it is a really interesting question to say, "Am I able to thrive and have the relationships that I want and do the things that bring joy to me? And what can I change?" So, it's like, "Am I operating outside of that and then what would that look like?" So, I think, yeah, that's going to be really interesting.

PAM: Yes. And our last one, can you think of times that you didn't trust someone else's definition of their capacity? Ooh, that's a good one. How did it play out? Did it impact your relationship? It's very curious to see what other people's lens of their capacity is. As you were saying, are they just living through the cultural expectation that we survive, we go till we drop, put it all in, we are productive to the max. Are they bringing that in? 

ANNA: And I want to add to this one a little bit, that sometimes when we are in that survival mode, when we are pushing, pushing, pushing, we can have resentment towards someone that's choosing differently. And that resentment may not even make a lot of sense to us, but I think when you look at it through this lens, it's like, oh, wait a minute. Do I really want to be resentful or passing judgment on someone that's actually taking care of their mental health and doing this for self-care, just because I'm running my nose to the grindstone?

So, I think it's really interesting. For me, again, it's this awareness. It's like, when we name these things, we're able to distance ourselves. It doesn't feel like it's all who we are. We can go, "Okay, this is something I can examine. I can play with it. I can see how it feels." You don't have to make changes, but playing with it just gives you so much more information. And especially if you see it causing a problem in a relationship, it's very much worth your time to look at those pieces.

PAM: Yeah. Oh, that's one of the reasons why we are so excited to be sharing these questions, because we are not trying to get rid of some rules or paradigms and then being prescriptive about how, now you must do it this way. No, let's play with these ideas. These are things that we've found helpful in our relationships, paradigm shifts that have helped us. There is no expectation that it will work out any particular way for anyone else, but it is so worth the time to play with it. 

ANNA: And especially if you're feeling pinches, because I think that's the thing, if our relationships are humming along, then we've got a good understanding. Whatever we're doing is working.

But when we start to feel the pinch, when we start to feel a distance, when we have a rupture for whatever reason, using these things that we're talking about can help us really kind of zero in versus standing in a place of hurt or not really knowing how to make the repair or not knowing how to change it even if we can make the repair, because we don't know how we got there.

And so, these pieces allow us to play with that and to look at it and be like, "Okay, I'm going to be more intentional about this piece for these relationships that are important to me." 

PAM: Yeah. And for the moving forward piece, like standing there, "I don't know how we got there," and two weeks later, "I don't know how we got there."

ANNA: We're here again!

PAM: Okay. Thank you so much for listening and we will see you next time. Bye.

ANNA: Bye bye.

This week, we're diving into consent and living consensually with the people in our lives. Consent is really the backbone of everything we talk about. Everyone, regardless of age, wants agency. When we can shift away from control, because we truly can't control other people, we move from a power-over dynamic to a collaboration paradigm, leading to more connected relationships.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

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Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

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1. What does consent mean to you? How do you see it weaving together with agency?
2. Think about a recent argument you had and how you expressed yourself. Could you reframe/reword some of what you said as an “I” message? That can be both less confrontational and more accurate. For example, instead of, “You’re not listening to me!” maybe try, “I don’t feel heard.” Rather than getting stuck in an endless round of “Yes, I am”/”No, you’re not”, it encourages the conversation to go deeper.
3. What barriers do you see to living consensually? How would it feel to just set them aside?
4. This week, practice contemplating the underlying need that your friend or partner is trying to meet through their actions.

ANNA: Hello again and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We're excited you're interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

So, in today's episode, we're talking about consent and living consensually, and I have to say, this is one of my very favorite topics. It is really the backbone of everything that we talk about. When we understand that everyone, no matter their age, wants agency, and that we truly have no control over another, we move from a power-over dynamic to a collaboration paradigm.

And it's interesting, because I think intellectually most of us would agree that consent is important, that we should never push past another person's consent. And yet, in our desire to control outcomes, we often do, and this is especially true for children. And yet, how can we expect children to honor consent as adults if they have never experienced what it means to work together to find solutions to that feel good to both parties?

And it comes into play in adult relationships as well, in subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways. We look to change people. We have expectations and agendas that we push without regard for who that person is and what they want and what they value.

PAM: Yeah, exactly. And for me, consent and by extension, living consensually, was one of those ideas that once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it. I soon recognized how often I was trying to very subtly wield control to move through situations in ways that made sense to me, especially interactions with my partner and my kids. And looking through this new lens, I notice now how disconnecting those control tactics were for my relationships. Basically, someone was almost always disappointed or disgruntled in a family of five.

But I also observed that many of our interactions were steeped in power. And at their root, they were about me, often very politely, but I was convincing, coercing, or guilting the other person into doing what I wanted them to do. Gee, that calls back to our last episode as well, doesn't it?

ANNA: Yeah. It does!

PAM: And I realized how draining that was. My understanding of consent grew exponentially once I realized it wasn't about me convincing someone to agree to do the things my way. That's consent, right? Instead, it was so much more about seeing through their eyes and recognizing that there are many valid paths forward, not just mine. Consent meant working together collaboratively to figure out an often new path forward that made sense still and felt good to everyone involved.

ANNA: Yeah, right. It definitely hearkens back to that episode and also to when we talked about how different people can be, because when we push our agenda without consideration of how the other person feels or moves through the world, when we have ultimatums or even just expectations that are kindly and politely put out there, we're taking away that other person's agency, and that is just not a solid place from which to build a strong relationship.

Humans want autonomy. They want to have agency over their lives. So instead, we can learn about one another. We can commit to deeply understanding what makes each of us tick. We can set up an environment where we find solutions to problems together, trusting that we'll keep at it until both parties feel good about the plan.

And that's really the core of choosing to live consensually. The process involves listening and validating, being able to clearly articulate our own needs, but in "I" messages, not demands. After everyone feels heard and seen, that's where we can cultivate this open curious mindset, this brainstorming-type idea about how to solve the situation at hand. At that point, we're all on the same team. We're working together to solve for all the needs, instead of standing on opposite sides, defending and advocating only for our own needs.

And a big part of this is understanding that there are almost always underlying needs at play. So, very often, a conflict is sitting at one level that can feel impossible to solve. One person wants to go out, the other wants to stay home. Where do we go with that? But if we peel back a layer to see the underlying needs, then we have more to work with. We have more options to consider. But we can't get there if we're stuck in that place of thinking their actions are about us, if we think our partner is just being difficult, if we're taking it personally. There are needs on both sides of that argument and understanding those opens up the options.

So, maybe one wants to just really see their friends. So, could the friends come over instead? The other had a long day and just needs some downtime. Is allowing a bit more time before going out the fix? Solutions are everywhere when we assume positive intent on all sides and start working together to understand each other and the situation more.

That quick reminder that they're just humans trying to meet a need helps us remain connected and curious. And now we have a puzzle to solve together, instead of two or more people digging in their heels on opposite sides of this surface-level disagreement.

PAM: Yes, yes, yes. And, for me, it made all the difference in the world when I felt we were truly all on the same team, trying to figure out a way to move forward that met each of our needs. It was such a big energetic, feeling difference. So, we can just take a moment to envision what that might feel like. So, when each person feels seen and heard and trust that their needs will ultimately be met, it is so energizing. It opens up so many creative possibilities, rather than locking two people, as you said, into that battle until one comes out the winner. There's a winner and loser in that situation. Who has the power? Who can convince the other one to do it their way?

It definitely takes time and patience and practice to bring consent into our everyday relationships, but it really is life-changing. I do want to acknowledge the time that these conversations can take as you work together to figure out those underlying needs, to figure out a path forward that works for everyone. But the other path, which is the argument, the power struggles, and then the aftermath of needing to repair the relationship, that takes up time, too. So, which process feels better to experience with those you love, trust and collaboration or judgment and power struggles?

ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. So, that right there was really a big part of me wanting to move in this direction. It takes time and energy to argue one's position and to try to win everything, energy that I found draining and disconnecting. And I knew I didn't want to live in that energy every day. It felt very assaulting to me.

What I found was how rewarding and connecting it was to live in a house with no top-down agendas, no punishment or control, just connection and collaboration, whether it was with David or if it involved our kids. We were all invested in helping each other meet our needs and do the things that we wanted to do. That deep level of trust that you will be supported and unconditionally loved is the energy I want to cultivate and bask in every day.

And so, somewhat related, over the years, David has had a lot of hobbies that people would consider dangerous. They're a part of who he is, and I've always wanted to support him in those pursuits, even when I didn't understand it. And by putting that out there, what I found in return is someone who supports all my wild hair ideas and whom I trust will always be there for me.

That is worth so much more than me trying to control who he is and shape him into someone who may feel safer and easier for me. That's my work to do and, for me, it was rooted in gratitude for the time we have together and letting go of fear. Because fear is so often the root of control and letting that go allows us to find gratitude and connection to truly love those around us for who they are and how they move through the world. And that unconditional acceptance was what we both wanted to continue when we had children.

And honestly, raising children in a consensual environment where we were all trusted and supported, where we learned to understand and express our needs and knew we would be heard and that solutions would be found, has been one of the greatest experiences of my life.

PAM: It's been a life-changing and amazing experience, and I wanted to take a moment to talk a bit more about unconditional love and acceptance. I love that phrase. And, for me, it doesn't feel like throwing my hands up in the air and thinking, whatever! Whatever they want to do!

I think when we hear unconditional at first, that can be what we think. Okay. No conditions. I have no input. Whatever they want to do, just off they go.

For me, unconditional means without expectations, so without conditions, not withholding our love and affection if the person makes a choice that we don't agree with, even more so not using judgment and shame as tools to try to get them to change their mind.

But not having conditions doesn't mean not trying to understand them as a person, like we have been talking about. If they make a choice that doesn't make sense to us, unconditional love doesn't mean we think, "Whatever. I still love you. Off you go," and then burying our feelings of concern.

So, instead we can be more open and curious. We can learn more. Maybe it's in direct conversation with them or by paying extra attention to how the choice unfolds for them. How are they navigating it? What are they enjoying about it? I am so curious. What the heck do you enjoy? But either way, we learn more about them. We have a better understanding of who they are as a person.

Because even if we often say, "I love you!" it is hard for someone to feel loved for who they are if they don't feel seen and heard. They think, "Sure, they said they love me, but they don't really understand who I am."

Being in relationship with a person means understanding who they are, which also isn't a one and done thing. We all grow and change over time. To embrace consent and consensual living in our relationships with the people we love is to choose to be curious about who they are as a person, because that is a great place to start just right there. Like, who is this person?

ANNA: Right. And like you said, when we say, whatever, I love you, whatever, do whatever. That doesn't feel good. So, even if I don't understand something, I can ask questions and just like we've been talking about over these last few weeks, learn more about them. And then as we leave ourselves open to that, we're seeing through their eyes. We're starting to see like, okay, it does make sense that they love this. I see how that's feeding them. I see what they love about it.

And so, that moves us from this place of, okay, I'm not going to stop them, to, I'm celebrating who they are. And that switch is so big, moving to celebrating. Even when it's something we may not participate in ourselves or fully understand, we do understand through their eyes what they're getting from.

PAM: Yes. And we can connect. So, maybe it's a thing that, "Yeah, I don't want to join you in your thing. I'm glad that you love it." But where we can also really deeply connect with them is thinking about something that we love that much. So, when we know that, it's like how much I love this thing, then I can get a real feel and sense for how much they're enjoying the thing we're doing, and less about having conversations later about the facts of what happened.

It can be, "I bet you had so much fun." You can talk about the energy, you can talk about the experience. That's where you can connect with them and share and celebrate them. I love that point that you shared about getting to the place where you can celebrate their love of the thing. You can celebrate their choices without having to make the same choice, without having to join them, but we can celebrate that energy and knowing how it feels for ourselves, too.

ANNA: Yes. I just love how you're saying that, because that's the piece. We can celebrate how much joy it brings to them. We can celebrate their excitement about something, even if we can't celebrate the individual piece of it, because we maybe don't understand it or it doesn't appeal to us. But that's irrelevant. When someone you love lights up about something, be it a child or your partner or your friend, that's energy we can get on board with. And celebrating someone for something like that, it builds this deep trust and bond, that I'm seen by this person that they really see me and it's just really beautiful. So, I love that.

So, let's give a few questions to ponder as we're thinking about consent and living consensually with your loved ones for this week. What does consent mean to you? How do you see it weaving together with agency? I think this is going to be good.

PAM: Yeah. That is so interesting, that connection between those two things. And just thinking about agency, is that something I want to step on? How does it feel to have agency? To have choice? How does consent weave in with that. I think that'll be really fun to play with.

ANNA: Yeah, to peel a little of that back. Okay. So, think about a recent argument you had and how you expressed yourself. Could you reframe or reword some of what you said as an "I" message? That can be both less confrontational and more accurate. So, for example, instead of saying, "You're not listening to me," maybe try, "I don't feel heard." Rather than getting stuck in the endless round of, "Yes, I am listening." "No, you're not listening," and we have this meta fight that starts happening, it encourages the conversation to go deeper. "Why are you not feeling heard? I don't understand. I want to understand." It just takes it to a different place.

PAM: Yeah. And that's a great example of getting to the underlying needs, because so often, we can take that need and jump to the solution and share the solution. Not feeling heard, the solution is for them to listen to me. So, I say, "You're not listening to me." But they feel that they are. So, that doesn't click for them. So, if you go to the root, to the need, the need is, I'm not feeling heard. Then maybe there is a different way. It's less confrontational and it's also more fundamentally accurate.

I'm not feeling heard. That's where we are. If you can come up with new and interesting ways for me to feel heard or for me to see that you're hearing what I'm saying, that's where the rub is right now. I don't need to give them the solution that I think they need to do.

ANNA: Right, Exactly. Because again, that gets us in that meta argument, which just never ends well. Okay, so, what barriers do you see to living consensually? And how would it feel to set them aside? And I think this one's important, because I think for most of us growing up, we may not have had choices and consent in all areas our life. So, it's not necessarily something that we have a lot of experience with, but I think you can feel the difference. And so, I think even just the thought experiment of setting it aside, what would it look like to have this collaborative relationship with all the people that I live with? How would I feel?

Think of the areas that rub or that feel draining for you in your day. Would changing that paradigm soften some of that? I think that'll be interesting.

And the last one is, this week, practice contemplating the underlying need that your friend or partner is trying to meet through their actions. I think write out some examples so that you can start to see patterns, because we can see patterns of, when they're tired, they get a little grumpier. It can be hungry. It can be things like that. And it can just be, oh, okay, this one thing kind of triggers this same type of argument each time, so there must be something else under it.

And so, I think when we start to look for patterns, when we start to think about it, for me, behaviors are always a reflection of a need. So, when we see a behavior, whether we like it or don't like it, look at what's the need that's playing out here? And so, when this is not in a charged situation, as well, then we start to just be better at recognizing the behaviors as a reflection of needs. And then we get better at it. Like we said, it's just practice and learning. And so, then we don't get stuck at that rubbing point of the behavior.

PAM: And I think it is so valuable for us to start with contemplating it, because if you all of a sudden start, when you're having a conversation or conflict with someone, saying, well, what is the need underneath? Why are you asking for that? That can be off putting. And they're not thinking in that way yet, so they may well not be able to answer that question for you.

But when we start thinking that way, like that example that we just talked about, you're not listening, but I want to feel heard, when we start practicing that, over time we get better with identifying those. And the other piece being, I also love your patterns note, because there can also be patterns to when those things bubble up for them and we can even play with addressing those needs.

When somebody starts to feel a little bit grumpy and you've seen over time that it's often when they haven't eaten or anything, even if we just like grab a glass of water or whatever, bring a drink, bring a quick snack. Don't say anything. Just hand it to them while you're starting into the conversation and just see how that goes, back to the playing with it.

But yeah, being able to contemplate it ourselves and start to see it without putting expectations on other people to meet us right there. When we start doing this, they will get curious. We will have opportunities outside of the charged moments to mention these things. So, it's something we can all get to, but again, needs time to practice, needs time to just kind of soak in the ethos.

ANNA: And having that self awareness piece. When when I make it have an action, what's my driving need? What need am I trying to meet with this action? From simple things like I'm calling a friend. "Hey, I'm feeling lonely, or I'm feeling like I want to be heard by someone, or I'm just wanting to connect." It can be anything. But if we start to just understand that the behaviors are always driven by a need, it just gets easier and faster to recognize them.

PAM: It does. It does so much. Okay. Okay. Thank you so much for listening everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye.

ANNA: Bye bye.

In this week's episode, we're talking about seeing through someone else's eyes, rather than walking in their shoes. This is a valuable paradigm shift to consider when trying to learn more about the people in our lives. By considering people's unique personalities, interests, and sensitivities, we can better understand their choices and avoid a lot of conflict and misunderstandings.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

EPISODE QUESTIONS

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. Take a moment to think about a close friend or loved one. How would you describe their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, and their interests and passions?
2. Pick an issue or challenge you recently navigated with family or friends. What did it look like through your eyes? Now try to see it through the eyes of someone else who was involved. How does it look different? How does it look the same? Why?
3. Remember a time you judged someone else about their choice or decision. Where did that judgment stem from? If you released that judgment and got more curious about why that choice made sense for them, how might things have played out differently?
4. Let’s explore the story of you. What are your current aspirations and goals? Strengths and weaknesses? Interests and passions? How do they inform the day to day choices you make?

PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are thrilled you're interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

And in today's episode, we are going to talk about seeing through someone else's eyes. This was another big paradigm shift for me in how I choose to be in relationship with others, because over the years, I have often heard the advice to walk in the other person's shoes so that we can better understand them and what they're experiencing.

But I discovered that, for me, that didn't go quite far enough. So, I put myself in my partner's shoes or my child's shoes, see what challenges and constraints they were facing, and come up with what I thought was a great plan for moving forward. And then they didn't agree. And I was like, "What? Why not? This is perfect!" I just didn't understand why they wouldn't follow my suggestions and I judged them negatively for their lack of cooperation. Like, "Let's move through this, people! Here's a great way to do it. You're just being stubborn." They must see how well my plan would work out.

So, when that wasn't working, I dug into it more. And jumping off what we talked about last week about how different people are in so many ways, I realized that putting myself in someone else's shoes meant that I was still using my experiences and perspectives, my ways of processing, and my preferred ways of engaging with the world. I was still filtering this new view of the world through the lenses that made sense to me.

I discovered that beyond walking in their shoes, I wanted to try seeing through their eyes. Oh my goodness! The picture is so much richer. It holds their experiences and preferences, how they prefer to process information, and how they prefer to engage with the world. It holds their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, their interests and passions.

And their choices now made so much more sense to me, because I can see how they were the best choices for them. In the same situation, I, in their shoes, may well make a very different choice, but that is entirely because I'm me. Because people are different, when I want to connect with someone, when I want to more fully understand their experiences and support them as they move through their days, putting myself in their shoes isn't as helpful as seeing it through their eyes.

ANNA: Oh my goodness. Yes! I really loved when I first heard you talking about this, because it really puts this very helpful visual on why my attempts at solving things for everybody falls a bit flat. And I love to solve things. And in my early days, my inclination was definitely to look at someone's concern and set about finding a solution for them. And it was often rooted in how I would want to handle it, how would I want to move through it? But like you said, as soon as you start digging into this, really even at all, you see why it doesn't work. And, as is so often the case, turning it around really helps me see why.

So, I have this close friend and she moves through the world in a very different way. She is a go-getter. She makes the call. She finishes the thing. She tells people what she needs in this very direct way. So, when I would share something with her, she would offer advice based on how she moves through the world and it would often just leave me feeling misunderstood, really. Disconnected.

It wasn't that her ideas weren't valid or even amazing, but they were not likely to work for me, because it just isn't as easy for me to make that call to someone out of the blue or to be super direct about what I need from them. But when someone understands those pieces about me, they can help me find ways to get what I want that feel comfortable. Maybe there will be some stretching and that's okay, but it'll be grounded in who I am and give me the best chance of actually being able to do it and to solve the problem that's in front of me to begin with.

So, that realization really helped me stop doing it to others. And instead, I focused on listening and learning and seeing through their eyes, helping them find ways that resonated with them and who they are and how they want to move through the world.

PAM: Yes. And I think it is really important to just note that seeing through someone else's eyes is a skill that we get better with over time. We need to practice with releasing our lenses. Sometimes we've got lenses in there that we really don't know that we have until we start pulling them away. And how can we not value our way of seeing it and being in the world as better? It goes back to last week's episode. We're all different, and that's okay. One way isn't better than the other, except that that's our natural tendency to do it. So, it can be hard to just release that valuing, because it really is better for us.

And also, our relationships with our loved ones become more connected just because we come to better understand their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, and their interests and passions, which means we can more accurately bring those aspects into the picture and vice versa. We are sharing ours and they learn more about us. It just takes time, doesn't it? We always like to think, okay, this makes sense. I'm going to do this right now. Let's go.

ANNA: Forever more! But it does take time and I think with everything, be gentle with ourselves as we figure it out. And do little steps, like starting with, "Well, this is how I might move through that." Just that little qualification, being clear about that as opposed to saying, "I think you should do this," which is sometimes where we go, but that's a great start. That little qualification, "This is how I might move through that." It leaves room for connection and learning more, because at that point, they can say, "I don't think I could do that." And then you're able to learn more and have more of that conversation.

But dropping the judgment piece that you were just talking about, I think, is really the most important and sometimes the hardest. "Well, if they would just do it the way I want them to, it would be solved." Well, if the "this" is not something that feels good to them, it won't solve it and it actually will just leave the person feeling like there's something wrong with them or that they're completely misunderstood and it definitely can impact our connection and relationship. And there isn't anything wrong with them. There isn't only one way to do something. They just may not want to move through the world in the same way that I do.

So, we can let go of that judgment and commit to learning more about who they are and what feels best to them. Sharing our ideas, absolutely, but with this open, curious mindset that they might be seeing it in a very different way.

PAM: Yes. Exactly. This tool of seeing through their eyes, how it works, is also really helpful when we just want to understand a choice they're making. Maybe they're not looking for our input.

So, when we see a choice and it doesn't make sense to us, maybe it's not a choice we would ever make, but when we take a moment to see it through their eyes, all of a sudden it can make so much more sense.

And, that said, sometimes no matter how hard we try to see through their eyes, we just don't understand why they want to do the thing they want to do. So, in those moments, what works for me is leaning on my understanding again, that people are different. And not taking things personally, like we talked about. They're not making this choice to piss me off. They're making it because it makes sense to them.

So, that helps me move through any judgment of them that I might be feeling, and instead get curious. Because judgment is not only disconnecting, it's often a clue that I'm just missing something. So, I might ask more questions to try to better understand and absolutely, sometimes that helps. Sometimes I was just missing this little piece. It's like, oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

Sometimes they can't explain things in a way though that makes sense to us. That again, doesn't mean that they're wrong. I can choose to trust them to make their own decisions, and we will all learn more as things unfold over time. That is beautiful. When we see how things unfold, when we see their next step and their next step, we see a bigger picture of what's happening.

And if things do go a bit sideways for them, when I'm not bringing that judgmental energy of, "I told you so. I had a better idea," when we're not bringing that to the conversation, we can support them as they tweak their path over time to get where they want to go.

Or maybe I discover a new aspect of them that I didn't know about. Maybe it's a new aspiration that's been bubbling up. Maybe it's a fear, a new interest, a sensitivity, like we talked about before, that may be developing.

So, when we're open and curious about the people that we're in relationship with, we all grow and learn and change alongside each other, which is so much more connecting and fun than trying to coax and control each other to do what we think is best. 

ANNA: So much yes. My goal is connection and part of that is understanding these differences and not only learning to understand, but the next step is really celebrating. And when we can celebrate even when we don't fully understand, that makes such a difference. The world is richer for us all playing to our strengths and supporting one another to do that. This is especially true for the people we are choosing to share our life with. But, I mean, for me, it really goes for all people.

It's back to that generous assumption and cultivating an open, curious mindset, so that we can begin to understand why people are seeing the world differently. Why are they choosing differently? And knowing that those different ways of seeing and doing are not attacks on our way of seeing and doing. Both can and do exist. And to be in relationship with someone, celebrating that instead of judging helps us avoid conflicts and misunderstanding, and it really deepens that trust and bond we have with each other, because we feel deeply understood, which is so important to us as humans, often.

PAM: So much. Just take a moment to sink into that and just feel, somebody knowing us to that level, which also includes us knowing ourselves. We kind of need to get there ourselves before we can even share those pieces of information with others. But, as you said, it does help us avoid so much conflict and misunderstanding and taking things personally and judging others and having expectations of others, and instead, deepens our connection, deepens our trust, deepens that whole bond that we have, within our whole family.

And then, as you said, it's our choice how deep and strong a relationship we want with anybody who passes through our lives. So many of these tools are also useful, at least I have found, in my extended relationships as well.

So, here are some questions that you might want to ponder as you explore this really fun difference between walking in someone's shoes and seeing through their eyes. So, the first one is, take a moment to think about a close friend or a loved one. How would you describe their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, and their interests and passions? It's really fun to do that. And then, you know what? It might be really fun to check in with them. And say, "Hey, this is what I'm thinking. This is how I'm seeing you. What have I nailed? What have I maybe gone a little sideways on?" It could spark a really, really fun conversation.

ANNA: Yeah. I think that's a great conversation.

PAM: Yeah. Especially when we just come at it that way, rather than it coming out after a conflict or around a conflict or something. There is no energy and judgment in the air. It's just like, let's have this fun conversation. Okay. Next.

Pick an issue or challenge that you recently navigated with family or friends. What did it look like through your eyes? Now try to see it through the eyes of someone else who was involved. How does it look different? How does it look the same? Why do you think that is? Just start playing with that, as well. Where are the the places where you see the same things and where might we see things differently? And then maybe play it through a little bit more, like the choices that people made throughout whatever issue or challenge it was, do they make more sense to you now that you're looking at it through their eyes?

ANNA: I think what happens when we do this piece, where we step back and go, how are they seeing it? It takes some of the charge out of it, because when we are only seeing through our eyes, we're bulldozing down the tunnel to get to our end point. But when we step back and go, oh my gosh, I can see how they're seeing that in a really different way, suddenly, the charge comes out of it and we can get on the same team. We can go, okay, I'm seeing it this way. You're seeing it that way. Let's talk about that. It just changes that whole dynamic of the head butting that can happen, you know?

PAM: Yeah. And just think how that helps everyone involved feel seen and heard, no matter what the end path is. When we recognize how other people are experiencing it, that can be so valuable. All right, next.

Remember a time you judged someone else about their choice or decision, and now let's do a thought experiment with that. Where did that judgment stem from? If you released that judgment and got more curious about why that choice made sense for them, how might things have played out differently? One thing that's important for us and why that playful attitude helps is it's not valuable for us to judge our past actions and thoughts. We're learning more now. We're playing with things now. The stuff that we're figuring out, we can bring with us into future encounters, future engagements, conflicts, choices, all those pieces.

So we can, in our own thought experiments, play around with anything. It's okay that, man, I felt really judgey about that person that day or this thing that I saw. Maybe I know nobody who was involved, but it's worth it to think, okay, where did that judgment come from? What does that mean for me? Why is that important to me? All those pieces can be really helpful for understanding ourselves and for making maybe different choices as we move forward.

ANNA: Right. That's what I was going to say. I think when we play around with some of these ones in the past, again, this is not to judge how we handled something in the past. This is not to make ourselves feel bad. But it's giving us a chance in a lower charged environment to look at that. And I think when we recognize where the judgment came in and recognize how it maybe didn't serve us in that situation, when we feel it bubbling up when something comes up ahead of us, we can go, oh, okay, this judgment, do I want to look into this now? Do I want to dig back and peel some layers back now? And so, I think that practice can help us actually help in the moment or the things that are to come.

PAM: Exactly. And lastly, let's explore the story of you. What are your current aspirations and goal, strengths and weaknesses, interests and passions? How do they inform the day-to-day choices you make? I think sometimes we can kind of disconnect. We can think of these big things like, what are my goals? What are my strengths? How do I like to do things? What are my passions? And yet, we don't bring those down into our day-to-day. Or we don't make the connection. They may be subconsciously directing our choices throughout the day, because our mind knows these are the things that we value.

But when we can recognize that, we can also notice that we're making more progress than we think towards our goal, et cetera. So, understanding how all those pieces weave together can be so valuable for ourselves. So, it's absolutely helpful to do this.

ANNA: Yeah, and I think, too, it kind of reminds me of the priorities episode, too, with that intentionality we're bringing it, but I think what I really want to say about this question, and we'll keep talking about this, we need to develop our own self-awareness in order to be able to communicate with our partners. So, in order to be able to say what's important to us and what we're doing so that they can understand, because none of us are mind readers. So, this work of really digging into, what am I excited about? What's making me tick? How am I looking at these things? is so valuable on so many layers for us and for those in our lives.

PAM: Exactly. Yes. We hope you have so much fun with these questions and we would be happy to carry on the conversation, whether you want to comment on YouTube, whether you want to comment on Instagram. We would love to hear some of your processing through these questions if you'd like to share. And thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye!

In today’s episode we're talking about just how different people can be! It's natural to assume that other people see the world in the same way we do, and that they experience and process things just like we do. But in reality, we are all unique. And while we are our own unique beings, there are some general traits that can be helpful to understand. Not understanding these simple differences can lead to a lot of hurt feelings and misunderstandings.

So, we’re going to talk about a few of the biggies that tend to come up in relationships, such as introversion and extroversion, internal and external processing, and sensitivities. Diving into some of these differences can be so helpful in understanding our loved ones and in avoiding some of the common miscommunication that can happen between us.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. And join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

EPISODE QUESTIONS

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. Do you feel you are more introverted or extroverted? How about the most important people in your life? How do you see them and how do they see themselves?
2. Are you more of an internal or external processor? What about those around you? Have you seen this cause confusion before?
3. What areas of sensitivities or just preferences do you wish your partner or friends understood about you? Ask them if they have any that they’d like you to know.
4. What is your love language (physical touch, words of affirmation, gifts, quality time, acts of service)? Your partner’s? Your child’s?

Myers-Briggs Personality Test: https://www.truity.com/test/type-finder-personality-test-new

Love Languages Quiz: https://5lovelanguages.com/quizzes/love-language

Highly Sensitive Person Test: https://hsperson.com/test/highly-sensitive-test/

ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We are excited you found us and are interested in exploring our relationships—who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.

In today’s episode, we're going to talk about how different people can be. I think it’s a human nature thing to just automatically assume that other people see and experience the world in the same way that we do. And in reality, we are all unique.

And while we really and truly are our own unique beings, there are some general traits that can be helpful to understand. Not understanding these simple differences can lead to a lot of hurt feelings and misunderstandings. So, I'm excited that we’re going to talk about a few of the biggies that tend to come up in relationships, especially.

Let’s start with introverts and extroverts. There are a lot of misconceptions about this one. Many think that people who are more introverted are shy and if they just got some skills, they would be extroverted. I'm here to say no. I’m an introvert. I am not at all shy. I can speak to a crowd of 500 people and not break a sweat, but put me at a party and I’m usually in another room with the dogs.

It's interesting, because even if it’s a party where I do talk and make a lot of connections and have a wonderful time, when I come home, I’m tired, exhausted sometimes, and I just need some quiet space to decompress and bring back up my energy, while for my more extroverted friends, they are super recharged by the party and want to have more conversations. They're raring to go!

And it's good to keep in mind that this is a spectrum, but it's still helpful to understand you and your partner's tendencies when it comes to this, because how this plays out in relationships is that, if you have one who's more one type than the other, it can be a lot of misunderstandings. The more introverted partner comes home from work and just wants to retreat, while the more extroverted partner is waiting at the door and they want to talk about their day and connect right away. And so, what can feel like a slight and even result in some hurt feelings is really just a personality difference. And it's easily solved for by allowing some transition time and then connecting.

I have a close friend who's an extrovert, big time, and she will actually start to have low energy and start feeling depressed, even thinks she's coming down with some kind of an illness, and then we realize she hasn't seen people in a couple days and a quick dose of in-person interaction and she perks right back up. So, understanding these bits can help us help each other and understand each other. And watching how our energy ebbs and flows with interaction is one clue. 

PAM: Oh, definitely, definitely. I think the energy piece can be such a great clue about where you lie on that introvert/extrovert spectrum. And yes, remembering it's a spectrum, not a slot, is very helpful.

So, after a group event, like say a family get-together, dinner with friends, or a holiday party, how do you feel? Just take a moment. Are you energized and excited to engage with more people or projects? You want to just get to the next thing? As soon as it's over, are you happily just thinking, just looking around going, what can I do? What can I do? Or, do you feel, like you mentioned, Anna, fulfilled emotionally, yet drained energetically, ready for some alone time? Do you look forward to curling up with a book or a show to just recharge for a while?

And then, if that energy lens doesn't resonate, just think of what you'd freely choose to do after hanging out with a group of friends for a few hours. Would you like to then hang out with another group of friends? Do you want to tackle a big project on your list? Well, then you're likely higher on the extrovert side of the scale. And if either of those options made you shudder inside, you are probably more of an introvert.

Also, as you alluded to earlier, Anna, neither one is better than the other, but it is really helpful to understand that aspect of our personality and that of our friends and family, because if we don't, it can lead to all sorts of misunderstandings and even taking the other person's choices personally.

ANNA: Right. And that's the big thing. We're taking something personally that really has nothing to do with us.

And so, along these same lines, but not the same, is how we process information. So, people tend to be internal or external processors. Internal processors take ideas and they think about them for a long time, while they're weighing options and coming up with a plan and just thinking all about it in their head. And when they tell you something, they tend to be ready to act on the idea. That's a big difference. An external processor wants to see and hear the ideas in front of them, bouncing off other people. What kind of input are they going to get? "Let's think about all these different things."

And so, they'll say things that they have no intention of doing, just to see how it feels. And if we don't understand this, it really can lead to a lot of confusion.

So, my externally processing friend is talking about moving to Europe one day. So, in my mind, I'm planning the going away party. I'm thinking about how sad I'm going to be that they're gone. And later, I realized that they just wanted to walk through that idea. They were nowhere near making a decision at all.

And, Pam, I'm here to say, if I say out loud that I'm moving somewhere, like the truck is lined up and the boxes will be arriving that day. There is no doubt. So, again, you can see how that could lead to conflicts and confusion if we don't understand how the important people in our lives process information and what they need to process big decisions, be it space, or the listening ear.

PAM: Yes, yes, yes. This was such a big revelation for me. I still so clearly remember many years ago when my partner mentioned mid-week about going somewhere on the weekend. So, me, I went straight into planning mode, right? Boom, boom, boom. Let's make this happen. And the next day, just asked him a quick question, and his earnest reply was, "What are you talking about?" And I was just flabbergasted. I'm like, "What? You said you wanted to do this!"

So, a quick conversation and I realized he had just been tossing that ball up in the air with zero investment in where it landed. Whereas I had already scooped it up and started running towards what I thought was the goal line. Let's go there this weekend!

So, I learned to be less invested in the random balls and instead to just be curious about them, because I knew he was an external processor, to ask questions, to learn more. Are you looking for a change of scenery? What would you like to do there? Just playing with it with him, that helps him process what it might feel like.

And, of course, we don't need to stick anybody in the box again of internal or external processor forever. But it can be really helpful to understand their tendency, so we are more able to join them where they are, whether it's fantasizing and brainstorming, like with your friend, Anna, too, or getting ready to help tape up your boxes.

So, understanding that others may well process things differently than I do, I might preface my words so they come across more clearly. So, maybe I say, "I'm dreaming about moving to Europe. What do you think that might be like?" Or, "I've been thinking about changing careers for a while now, and I just found this great job I'd like to apply to. Can you help me tweak my resume?" I don't think it really ever hurts to give people a little bit more context so they can better understand where we're coming from and what we're looking for. It helps us connect more quickly.

ANNA: Yes. And with all those pieces, they're just things to consider, patterns to look for, ways to not take things personally, again, because that's so often where we derail just because someone has a different process or experiences things in a different way. So, letting go of judging also that there maybe is one way or a better way or, "This is the way," when we can let that go, it just really opens us up to that connection.

And so, one of the other things I wanted to touch on are sensitivities. Some people are just wired to experience more. They see more, smell more, take in more. And the situations that feel really easy for one person feel nearly impossible for another. And the confusion comes in when someone takes it personally when someone says something doesn't work for them.

So, I have a hard time in cities. This is a well-known fact for anybody who knows me. The lights, the smells, the sounds, the energy from all the people. So, if someone asks me to go to a city, I would most likely say no pretty quickly. But it's not a no to spending time with the person, necessarily. And so, I try to be clear, like you were talking about, and transparent, because it helps give them that additional information, which I think is probably always a good idea. Let's provide some context and information.

But it really does help when we take the time to learn about each other's preferences so that we can honor them and not take them personally.

PAM: Absolutely. Recognizing that we're all different in the way we experience and engage with the world helps us sidestep so much of that judgment and unintentional hurts that happen so often.

So, when our introverted partner beelines for the couch to quietly watch some TV after a fun afternoon with extended family, it does not mean that they're purposefully ignoring us or that they didn't enjoy the afternoon. It really can just be about their need to recharge. It doesn't need to be a reflection on us at all.

And when we ask our friend about joining us at the big local festival this weekend, "Yay!" and they say they need to think about it, that needn't be a slight on us, either. Maybe they're an internal processor and need to think through what a change in plans would mean for them, or maybe they're an introvert and need to consider how much recovery time they'll need after and whether they can work that in. And maybe they're sensitive to the sounds and smells that come with a festival full of food carts and loud music, and need to consider some tools to help them navigate the environment reasonably comfortably for them.

And, as you mentioned, Anna, even if they decide not to join us, there is a very good chance that, too, is not about us. We can have a conversation about it with them and next time invite them to get together in a way that works better for them.

And the more we know about how we tick, the more easily we can have those kinds of conversations with others. We can share those little pieces of ourselves and open up the space for them to share more with us. And that way, they see that our choices aren't judgments of them, but are examples of how we care for ourselves. What a difference it makes to our relationships to understand these fundamental differences between people.

ANNA: And, I mean, you would think we would know some of this, but really it is a surprise to a lot of people I talk to. It's this, "Oh yeah, they do that! Now that makes sense." And so, right, just putting these pieces together and thinking about it for ourselves, even, because that's the thing, I think sometimes we don't even have this awareness about ourselves. And so, that's why I think it's going to be really interesting this week to think about the important people in our lives, to think about ourselves. What do we know about them? What might we not know?

And so, here are our questions to reflect upon for this week. So, first, do you feel you're more introverted or extroverted? How about the most important people in your life? How do you see them and how do they see themselves? And I want to point this out, because if people meet me in a work environment, they think I'm an extrovert. I took a Myers Briggs test in a corporate America job and they were like, something's wrong there. I was the farthest on the introvert scale.

So, it's not just how we see someone. Learn about them, because then you know, they may be able to be at this level, but it's draining them. So, that piece is important.

Are you more of an internal or external processor? And what about those around you? And I think it would be curious to look at, have you seen this cause any confusion and peel back some areas where you've had some disagreements and think, "Ah, was this at play?" So, I think that could be really interesting.

What areas of sensitivities or just preferences do you wish that your partner or your friends understood about you? And then ask them if they have anything they'd like you to know. I think that's interesting, because I think sometimes we think people just know these things about us, because we're spending all this time together, but we don't.

PAM: And then, there's also that expectation we can have of our partner, too.

ANNA: To mind read.

PAM: Yeah. It's like, okay, well they should have figured this out about me. No, let's be open and share all the little pieces, not have expectations of others to figure it out on their own. That's a big one, I think.

ANNA: Let's keep sharing, keep that context coming. And lastly, we just wanted to make a quick mention about love languages. So, this idea was put forth by Gary Chapman in his book, that there are five love languages. We each tend to have a primary and a secondary. He lists them as physical touch, words of affirmation, gifts, acts of service, and quality time.

What that means is that we receive and feel love best when it's expressed in our love language. It's another way that people are different. And the challenge is that we often want to give love in the way that we want to receive it, which of course makes sense. But if the language of our loved one is different than ours, then it will sometimes miss the mark. So, following the link in the show notes, take the love language quiz if you haven't, and figure out what's your love language and your partner's and your children even.

And then just look at, "Oh, is that at play with some of these pieces? Are they looking for these words of affirmation that maybe don't come naturally to me or I don't think about, or this quality time that in our busy lives we're not able to prioritize as much and maybe we can prioritize that."

So, it's just going to be fun digging in to see, just to learn more about each other. And that's the fun richness of relationships, where we're learning about ourselves and each other.

PAM: Exactly. And I think this one will be really fun for people to play with, too, because one of my love languages is acts of service. So, for me, I love doing little things for people, but are they receiving that as an act of love or just like, "Oh yeah, that thing got done." It's not that that anybody's reacting negatively, but it is it expressing what I'm trying to express through it as well?

So, it's really interesting to then shift it and realize they may have other love languages and to then say, "Oh, well, how could I use their language to express?" And just play with that.

You'll hear me say this many times through the podcast, I'm sure. Let's play with things and see how they feel, see how they unfold. When we do something, it doesn't mean we have to do it forever. It doesn't mean we have to do it the same way forever. It doesn't mean we ever have to do it again.

We learn so much when we just try something out and see what happens. It's fun. That brings the fun and the playfulness to it.

ANNA: I do think relationships are fun and interesting and that playful, open, curious attitude is really what helps that, "Hey, we're in this together. Let's figure each other out. Let's see how we want to move through the world." So, yeah, I love it!

PAM: Yay! Well, thank you so much for listening, everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye.

ANNA: Bye.

This week, we're talking about connection!

How connected we're feeling to the people in our lives is a helpful barometer of our relationships. Feeling disconnected can be a sign that it's time to more intentionally cultivate connecting moments.

Anna shares one of the questions that guides her decision-making: 'Is what I'm about to do going to enhance or harm my connection with this person?' We also explore the idea of bids for connection, which can be an enlightening lens through which to view our interactions.

We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. And join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

EPISODE QUESTIONS

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. What does connection with another person feel like for you?
2. What are some ways you might connect with the people in your family? What do they love to do? What do you love to do? How might those overlap?
3. How do you typically react when an attempt to connect with someone goes unexpectedly?
4. Would that change if you framed it as learning something new about them?
5. What bids for connection do you notice and are you responding in the way you’d like to?

PAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are excited you found us, and are interested in exploring our relationships and who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we choose to move through the world. And in today's episode, we are going to talk about connection.

So, connecting with another person on an emotional level creates a feeling of being in alignment with them, of understanding and appreciating each other in that moment. Regularly cultivating connection with someone builds a stronger and stronger relationship with them. You get to know and understand each other better. You come to anticipate their needs and they, yours.

So, for me, how connected I'm feeling to another person is kind of a barometer of our relationship. If I'm feeling disconnected, I more purposefully seek out connecting moments with them. A connecting moment might be sharing an activity together, from watching a movie, going for a walk, playing a game, whatever feels good together.

But the really important piece for it to be connecting is that the other person needs to enjoy it. This was something that I had to learn along the way. It's not particularly connecting for me to cajole my partner into going for a walk with me if they don't enjoy walks. They will likely spend a good chunk of that time looking forward to it being over, rather than enjoying each other's company. They will just have that in the back of their mind. "Have we walked long enough? Have we walked far enough? When's it time to turn back?"

So, if I want to connect with someone, whether it be a partner, child, friend, it is helpful to suggest an activity that they enjoy. They will also feel seen and heard by that. "Oh, they know how much I love to go for a walk. Yay!" Or, "to play that game, yay!" etc. That will help them feel seen as the person they are by me, because connecting with another person really is about seeing and celebrating them for who they are, not who I wish they were. That is a subtle but very important difference.

And in that space of enjoying an activity together, often we can both chat more freely and openly, learning more about what's up in each other's days, sharing what we've been enjoying, and what challenges we may be feeling. That is connecting with them. It doesn't need to be anything big, doesn't need to be anything special, but doing things together that we enjoy opens up that space for connecting and conversations and sharing little pieces of ourselves with each other.

So, what does connection look like for you, Anna?

ANNA: You know I'm excited to talk about connection! I keep connection as a lens for just about everything. I often ask myself, is what I'm about to say or do, going to enhance or harm my connection with this person? And if I'm honest about that and act from a place of choosing connection, conflicts are avoided. The lines of communication remain open. Because here's the thing. So, I'm choosing to be in relationship with this person. I love them. I want us to enjoy our time together, so I want to take ownership of who I am. I want to act from a place of being the person that I want to be. And for me, that person is kind and compassionate and extends unconditional regard to my loved ones.

Do I fall short of that sometimes? Yes. Yes, I do.

But if I keep connection as the lens, if I check in about my actions before acting, I can choose to be that person more and more. And it becomes easier and easier.

The other thing about being connected that I want to talk about is that we're on the same team. I talk to a lot of couples who are approaching disagreements or meeting their needs as basically this zero-sum game. When, instead, we keep our connection at the forefront, we're able to approach problems and meeting each other's needs as a puzzle that we're solving together. We're on the same side.

We can give each other that generous assumption, which is basically we love each other. We're in this together. We want to help each other feel seen and heard. We want each of our needs to be met. Coming from that place leaves a world of possibilities that we cannot see when we're tunneling in and defending our own needs without regard for the other in this oppositional, volleying back and forth, defend and receive.

PAM: Exactly. Feeling connected with another person really does feel like we're on the same team. I love that. We are in alignment. We want to help each other get our needs met and work toward accomplishing our goals.

For me, that feeling of being on the same team makes all the difference in our interactions, in our connection. Conflicts, or even just conversations, aren't that back and forth of offense and defense and winner and loser and how many times have they won and how many times have I lost, etc. It is just a team effort in creatively trying to meet everyone's needs and wishes and help each other along. That just feels so much better, too.

ANNA: So much better.

PAM: One thing I also wanted to mention is that sometimes our attempts at connection may not land with the other person. They may even go sideways, like, what the heck? That is totally okay. Like really, that's okay. It is not a failure. We don't need to take that personally, as an attack on us. Again, like offense/defense.

In fact, same team, when you bring that lens, we can often use that to learn a bit more about them. Oh, what was it about that thing? Was it the activity that they weren't interested in? Were they busy with somebody or something that's important to them? Maybe they're stressed about something that's going on in their life, like a work issue. Something else has their focus. So, it doesn't need to be a rejection of us. It's like, oh, there's other things going on in our life. And we can really be so quick to take everything personally. I definitely know that I can, but when I can take that moment to remember, no, it doesn't need to be about me, per se. What else is going on? It is so interesting and so often, that's really the case. They're not trying to piss us off or trying to make us feel bad.

None of that.

ANNA: It's not about us at all usually.

PAM: Exactly. Or in that moment, maybe we can learn a bit about ourselves or maybe both. Right? Maybe we put out-sized expectations on the other person. Maybe we didn't end up enjoying the activity and we're the one who's distracted instead of engaged in the moment. Maybe we were tired, like we just felt like we needed to do this thing and we pushed ourselves to try and connect with them, but in the end, it didn't turn out very well for us. Life happens. We learn from that experience and we try again.

We are always learning. There is just so much about each other. When we're talking about relationships, there's so much to learn, because we are different in each moment. When we're tired, we're different in that moment. The things that we can do are different, the conversations that we can have, but being more open and honest about those moments, it is so helpful for relationships.

And it also helps to be open to noticing when your partner or your child is trying to connect with you and try to be responsive in those moments.

If we are stuck in our heads, it can feel like we're the only one prioritizing the relationship. We feel like we're the only ones inviting and inviting. But if we can notice, so often, we may not realize what it is at first, but when they invite us to join them, chances are they are looking to connect with us. And it may look very different than how we might want to connect with them, but a connection is just as valuable either way.

And, in fact, it enhances relationship when the connections go both ways. There's a term that we toss around, we learned about last year or so, was it? Bids for connection. You want to talk about that a little bit more?

ANNA: Yeah, I definitely want to touch on bids for connection. I think the idea comes from the Gottman Institute. The funny thing about them is they don't always look straight forward like, "Hey, I want to feel closer to you now." Sometimes it looks like picking a fight or a grumpy comment. Sometimes it looks like asking for something that we can do ourselves. "Hey, can you get me water, even though you have to walk in front of me to go get the water that I'm asking for?" Sometimes it looks like pulling away or getting quiet. And as we learn more about each other, we see the bids for what they are and the underlying need that they're trying to meet. And then we can check in and respond with kindness and that can open up the lines of communication and avoid a situation where people don't feel heard.

Love languages can also play a role here. Knowing how we give and receive love can help make sure that what we're putting out is love is being received as such.

But with the bids, like you said, it's so interesting, because we'll be in our heads about, I want to make this relationship better, and maybe that person's telling us a story from work and we're actually still in our head thinking, "We're not doing relationship things," or we're not doing the thing the way it looks in our head.

But really, wanting to share that bit from work or the child wanting to share the bit about their game, that is the bid for connection. That is them wanting to bring us into their world. And so, for me, I just want to keep really open to that. I just want to be open, so that I'm seeing that in the people that are around me that I love, and that I'm acknowledging that and I'm responding.

And yes, like you said earlier, sometimes we have capacity issues to deal with. Sometimes there just isn't enough, or the time is not right, or we're tired. But I find even in those situations, when I see the bid, I'm able to acknowledge the bid. Even if I can't dive in fully to maybe what they're needing for the, in that moment, it's so much better than brushing it off.

PAM: Yes, when you can acknowledge it and be a bit transparent by saying, "Ah, that's wonderful. I love that. I can't wait to join you, or I can't wait to hear that story. I'm just really tired right now. Can we do it in the morning? Can we do it after I've had a nap? Or I'm just going to sit here and have a tea or a coffee for a few minutes," to acknowledge so that they feel seen and heard in that moment.

And there was one other thing that came up. So, as we've been talking this whole time about connection, and you touched on this and I think it's super important, is the idea that we can have these visions in our head of what being in relationship means. And it can mean all sorts of fancy things in our head. We can have these visions of, we need to go out on a date every week, right? We need to go outside of the house, all these pieces. And the everyday connection doesn't count. But, truly, in the everyday connection, that is the foundation. Those are the connections that we're building.

It doesn't mean we don't do the bigger things. It just means the relationship isn't on hold between the bigger things.

ANNA: Exactly. And this is what we were talking about that I said in the first episode that we're going to keep repeating, it's that outside voice, because I think we come into it maybe from movies, whatever, that we had this idea of what relationships look like, but it really is the everyday of just sharing the ups and downs and getting the things done around the house and just moving through our days together that builds that foundation, that then we can do all these other fun things and big things. Because the reality is, the big fun things are going to be sprinkled throughout our year. But if that's what we're pinning our hopes on, that's not going to get us through. So, we have to figure out how to keep that connection alive and rich and wonderful in those everyday moments. And it is listening for those bids. It is being available.

PAM: Yes. And just think for a moment, when you have that connection going throughout your days, your every days, you're already pretty well connected when those bigger moments come. And how much more fun are those when you're already connected, instead of thinking-

ANNA: We're going to get it there!

PAM: We have to go and relearn each other for our weekend away. Let's reconnect, finally.

ANNA: Right. And isn't that why some of those things go awry? Sometimes, we have this idea like, we're going to have this amazing date, or we're going to take this amazing trip and then it ends up falling flat. But I think so much of that is because maybe we haven't been tending to those pieces in between, and so, we're pinning our hopes on this big time away or this big thing, and it falls a little bit short.

So, yeah, I think that's super interesting to watch for and think about.

PAM: Yes. Yes. Okay. So, I have some questions to share for people to ponder as they're exploring connections, alongside all the ones we've already talked about.

So, what does connection with another person feel like for you?

What are some ways you might connect with the people in your family? What do they love to do? What do you love to do? What do you love to do together? How can these different things overlap? It doesn't always need to be one thing. Sitting on the couch together or playing a game together, those are all perfectly wonderful ways to connect.

How do you typically react when an attempt to connect, a bid for connection that we're putting out, goes unexpectedly? So, when you offer up, "Oh, let's sit down and have a coffee together, or a tea together," and they say no, how do you typically react? How does that feel? Would that change if you framed it as a learning something new about them? "Oh, I didn't know they were really into the thing they were doing. Oh, I didn't know that thing went strange at work today, and you're really worried about that," because those things going awry are actually opportunities to learn more.

And then, again, let's think about the bits for connection coming the other way. Just keep an eye open for that over the next little while. I love what you said that the bids don't always look perfect. As in, "Let's do this together!" It can be, "Oh, my gosh, I had such a rough day at work. I want to vent about it." That is a bid for connection. That is some support another person is looking for. And we can learn more about their lives. It can be a child really frustrated about something that went wrong and what they're trying to do, and they come to you. That's a bid for connection, for some support in what they are looking to do. Maybe it's the infamous, "I'm bored," you know? They're just looking to chat with somebody for a while.

There are so many possibilities when you just open up and start looking for what might potentially be bids for connections, opportunities for connection.

ANNA: Absolutely.

PAM: Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next time. Bye.

On this week's episode, we're talking about priorities.

We are handed a set of priorities by society and our culture, but when we really consider ourselves and our personal values, we can see how individual our priorities can be! When we choose priorities that feel good to us, it becomes easier to make day-to-day choices that align with what is important to us.

We talk about how our relationships fit into our priorities (and—spoiler alert—they're at the top of our lists!) and how prioritizing connection has become a focus for both of us as we tuned out the external noise and tuned into how we want to show up in the world.

We hope you enjoy this episode and take the time to dive into the episode questions. We look forward to hearing your reflections on Instagram or YouTube!

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.

Download a printable PDF of this week's questions here.

Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.

1. How can you quiet the outside noise so you can hear your own thoughts? Your inner voice?
2. What priorities make sense to you? Why?
3. Where do your relationships fall in your list of priorities?
4. Are your day to day actions lining up with your priorities? What changes, if any, would you make?
5. Do any of your priorities depend on other people’s actions and choices? If so, is there a way you could tweak them so that they focus on what you can control?

ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are so excited you found us and look forward to exploring our relationships, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world. So, on today's episode, we're going to talk about priorities. And I love this as a starting place for the podcast, because it's such an interesting topic to examine.

Priorities are so individual, and yet, so often, we're handed a set of priorities from society. We're handed definitions of success and where and how we should be spending our time.

And there are these heavy guardrails of judgment that we have to move through if we choose to deviate from these expected paths.

So, it can be really interesting, I've found, to dig into those outside voices, that judgment. What's behind it? What purpose does it serve? And is it helping me get in touch with who I am and who I want to be in the world?

I think about the studies that they do when people are on their deathbed and they're asked, is there anything that you would change? And consistently, they answer that they wished they had prioritized their relationships over achievements or the next promotion.

For me personally, I came to that realization for myself after our first child had a life-threatening after birth experience. Almost losing her really woke me up to the path I was on and to look at how I wanted to spend my time. And the answer for me was doing things I love with the people that I love. And that's how I want to spend this time that I'm given. And understanding that has just been a huge guide for me ever since.

So, I'm curious, Pam, what's it been like for you?

PAM: Well, it was having children that sparked my journey, as well. I found that those first few years were just filled with questions like who I wanted to be as a person and parent. And, having internalized so many of society's goals and stories growing up, it took me a while, quite a while, to realize just how much choice I actually had.

I didn't need to just dutifully take on the path and the priorities that were handed to me. I could figure out what I value and make those things a priority in my. And then, as I continued to ask more questions, I came to realize what would always be in my life, and it was my relationships. Jobs, hobbies, areas of interest, while definitely being integral parts of who I am, those would come and go over the years. They had been coming and going over the years. But my relationships with my family would always be in my life. They were and are a fundamental part of just my being in the world.

And so, since that aha moment, I have chosen to prioritize my relationships. And rather surprisingly, because you think I'm focusing on something, so I'm closing things down to this one thing, but I found that my life has been so much richer for it.

ANNA: Oh, my gosh. So much richer. I feel like when we have that foundation of strong, connected relationships, it's just this really wonderful place from which we can explore the world and learn about ourselves. Because I think that might have been the most surprising piece for me, that as I focused on being in relationship with others, I learned so much about myself. It's not always easy, but I'm grateful for it.

And so, as I'm thinking about this, we both got to this place where we didn't want to be taking these priorities that were being handed to us. The next bit for me was realizing that others don't want me to define their priorities either.

So, when we think about our partners or kids, it was really helpful to think, am I judging how they spend their time, the choices that they're making? Because that judgment comes between us. We don't learn why they're making the choices they're making. We miss the opportunity to really connect with them and who they are. It's got this cloud of expectation and you'll have some people that will buck against that expectation in really dramatic fashion. And then you'll have others that really try to meet it, even if it's not in alignment for them. But, either way, the connection is harmed and can be lost together.

So, I try not to be the outside voice that someone needs to shut out, but instead be someone who celebrates and just unconditionally supports the people in my life.

PAM: Absolutely. That was definitely yet another layer to peel back for me, realizing how valuable it was for me to contemplate and choose my priorities, but that didn't mean my priorities were the best priorities for anyone else. It makes so much sense to me why my priorities are these and in this order, but no, everyone is a different person. And I remember the huge shift in my relationship with my spouse when I stopped trying to convince him that my priorities should be his priorities as well, which had looked like me trying to tell him what to do and when. And I was definitely nice about it. I wasn't trying to bully him or anything, but as I thought about it, I was trying to convince him that I was right and vice versa. That's where our conversations went. They were often about convincing each other that our priorities and choices were more right than the other person's. There was definitely a winner and a loser.

But once I began to share my priorities without trying to convince him to adopt them, oh, my gosh. There was space for him to start sharing his without me judging them. Each of us was more able to be ourselves. We could just share and see how things landed. And then, that in turn helped us learn more about each other as we'd chat about the things that are important to us and why. And recognizing that his priorities are as important to him as mine are to me. 

ANNA: It's so true. I don't know. We get stuck in our head, right? We get stuck in our head thinking everybody's seeing things the same way. And so, yeah, I just love that next layer.

And I think then, I want to talk about, too, as we hone in on these priorities, it's such a helpful lens to look at the day to day moments. So, in each moment, we have this opportunity to make choices. And understanding my priorities and then keeping them front of mind as I made choices throughout the day was critical to me, actually honoring them as priorities, versus just giving lip service to, "My relationships are important," or whatever the thing might be.

So, what that would look like for me, it might be stopping what I'm doing to hear my child excitedly tell me about their game. It's taking a walk after dinner with David to reconnect, because we've had some time apart that day. Because, truthfully, I could curl up with a book and get some work done at the computer, but I do want to tend to that relationship, that priority first. And what I found is that that connection serves us both as we move through the evening and through the subsequent days.

And another really big one for me, this was so huge, was learning to say no to outside requests that took me away from the people that I loved. And here's the thing. Sometimes there are easy yeses and they feed me and they feel great and they feel great to those around me. But other times, what I noticed is that I was saying yes without really thinking about how it would impact me, my energy, what I would have left to give my family, the time it might take away from spending time with the important people in my life, all of those things.

I'm just seeing the person in front of me with the ask and saying, "Okay, I'll help," without really checking in. And using that lens really helped me realize that the time with them was what I wanted to prioritize, and so, I really needed to align my actions with that. So, that becomes the work, aligning our actions with what matters most to us.

PAM: Exactly. Yet another huge layer is, okay, I've got these priorities. It's not sticking them on a post-it note and sticking them somewhere where I'll see them. It's, how do these weave into my days, my actual days? What do they look like in action?

And I wanted to mention, it is not about trying to guilt ourselves into making choices that align with our priorities. If we find ourselves doing that regularly, I think that might be a great clue just to revisit our priorities. Apparently, the things that I want to do in my day don't align with what I thought my priorities were.

ANNA: That's so interesting.

PAM: So, just revisit them. What you really choose to do in the moment, you want to do in the moment, those outer voices, right? Am I doing it, because I think I should? Or is this something that feels good, that I want to choose, that I choose to do, that I want to do? And you want the things that you choose to do to align with your priorities, as well. They weave together so much.

That said, though, it doesn't mean that the choices are always easy. Like you were talking about, they aren't often between a good thing and a bad thing, making the choice easy like, "Oh yeah, between this and this? No, no. This is definitely it." Often, it's between two or three lovely things, but that's where knowing our priorities can be so helpful.

So, using your example, which I love, maybe after dinner I could take a walk with Rocco to reconnect, or I could clean up the kitchen a bit, maybe because it feels nice to me to walk into a tidy kitchen, or I could relax and read a bit. When I think about those choices, the first thing I might realize is that, those aren't actually either/or things, right? I could do them all over the course of the evening. And taking a moment to consider my priorities helps me put them in an order that aligns with them.

So, maybe I have also learned that once I sit down to relax and read or watch a show, I often feel too tired for a walk after. So, there are a couple of solid reasons to tend to the relationship first for me. So, maybe our walk turns into us tidying the kitchen together as we finish up our conversation. And then we can each go to our own thing feeling refreshed and connected.

There are so many ways that things can unfold. And keeping our priorities in mind helps us choose the path that feels more fulfilling to us.

ANNA: Oh, my gosh, yes. And I think that's such a great point about, if you're feeling a rub during your day about, I want to do this, but it's not aligning with these priorities I've set out, if you're seeing that as a to-do list or a checklist and it's not feeling good, woo, stop! Just stop right there. And revisit and go, "Wait a minute, are my priorities really lining up with who I want to be right now in this moment?"

And the thing is, they can change. Our priorities can change and they will as we go through different seasons of our lives, as we, grow and change and learn more things about ourselves. So, just looking for those little rub spots, I think, is important.

PAM: Speaking of those rubs, sometimes there are emergencies. There are urgent things in life that come up and I may absolutely choose to do those things. And I may choose to step far out of my comfort zone and do some things, but it's the act of recognizing, oh yeah, this needs my attention immediately, very, very soon. I am going to do that. Priorities, again, it's not a rule.

ANNA: No. Or a checklist.

PAM: Choice is right there. But priorities, there's something that can help us make choices that, again, they feel fulfilling. They feel right. They feel good to us. They help us when we come to a point where there are various possibilities for the next moment.

So, I just think they are so valuable for us to recognize, because sometimes, too, our priorities may look quite mundane. Like relationships. "I see these people every day! Of course I'm in relationship with them. They live down the hall, they sleep down the hall." So, it can feel like, why is it even worth making that a priority? But that's the fun part. That's why it's so valuable to think about it, to think about the kind of person that I want to be, the kind of parent I want to be, the kind of partner I want to be. And when we're thinking about it, we've got it top of mind as we go through our day. As things come up, as things unfold in front of us, we can make the choices that feel better for us, so that at the end of the day, it often feels just more fulfilling really.

ANNA: Right. And grounded, for me, because again, I think it's interesting. I think they inform each other. The choice informs the priority. The priorities inform the choice. And so, just that awareness, like you said, top of mind, bringing that awareness, that can really help us. It's a grounded feeling of like, I'm living the life that I want to live. I am being the person that I want to be and those are the things that I like to check in with myself about periodically. So, yeah, I love that.

Okay, so, we are going to leave you with some questions to ponder this week.

The first one is, how can you quiet the outside noise so you can hear your own thoughts, your inner voice? And so, this will be a big one, just thinking about, where are those voices coming from? What does it sound like for you? What does your voice sound like in contrast? So, just give a little time to sit with that and how you can shut those noises out.

The next one is, what priorities make sense to you and why? Because, like we said, it's going to be different. There's going to be seasons. There's going to be things that shift around based on where you are in your life and what's happening.

But, "Do they make sense to you?" is going give you a big clue as to, "Are they coming from outside voices versus, is it something that's really bubbling up from inside of you? Where do your relationships fall in your list of priorities? And I think it's just, again, it's the mundane in some ways, like Pam was saying. And so, maybe sometimes relationships fall off as we're thinking, "Oh, we've got this career thing we want to do," or whatever, which are all wonderful things. There's no good or bad here about what you're pursuing or doing, but it's just that check in. Where are they falling and is that where I want them? So, I think that's just important to look at.

Next one is, are your day-to-day actions lining up with your priorities? What changes, if any, would you make? And that's what we're talking about, is you're looking at the different choices you're making throughout the day. Does it line up with your priorities? And again, keep in mind that it could be that the priorities need to change, or maybe you want to check in about your priorities as you're making your choices. So, those, again, work together.

Do any of your priorities depend on other people's actions and choices? And, if so, is there a way you could tweak them so that they focus on what you can control? And this goes back to what we were saying about nobody else wanting us to put our priorities on them. It's that same kind of thing, because it's like, if we are expecting someone else to move along with our priorities, it's pretty much a recipe for upset or disconnection, because they're going to have their own path there. So, really tuning into, are my priorities in alignment with me and things that I can control?

And, for me, what that looks like a lot of times is, am I being the person I want to be? So, my priority may be about a relationship that does involve somebody else, but what I control is how I show up for the relationship.

PAM: Exactly. Yeah. We don't have control of how other people show up, but we can also be a wonderful model, as in, this is how we choose.

ANNA: Absolutely. So, check out the show notes for things we've mentioned in the episode, the episode transcript, and a link to download the PDF of today's questions. We'd love to hear what you discover. You can share your thoughts on a comment on the website or our episode post on Instagram @LivingJoyfullyPodcast. You'll find that link in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for being here with us, and we'll see you next time.

PAM: Bye.

Welcome to The Living Joyfully Podcast!

In this short episode, your hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia, share an introduction to the podcast and to themselves.

In The Living Joyfully Podcast, we are going to talk about many of the different aspects of being in relationship with the people in our lives. Having strong, connected relationships makes everything about being human more interesting and enjoyable. Navigating relationships is rooted in things like connection, agency, compassion, understanding, and consent. These are all of which are wonderful ideas, but we want to talk about what that looks like in real life. 

Being in relationship with others also asks us to better understand ourselves, so we’ll be diving into that aspect as well. It’s such rich terrain to explore as we shed the bits from our past that no longer serve us and focus on being the person we want to be now.

We will be releasing new episodes each week, including questions you can use to reflect on the topic through your unique lens.

Let’s dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!

You can follow us on Instagram.

ANNA: Hi, I’m Anna Brown.

PAM: And I’m Pam Laricchia.

ANNA: And welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast, episode 0.

Episode 0 gives us a chance to share a quick introduction to the podcast and tell you a bit about who we are before we dive into all the things we want to talk about. And there are a lot of things—we already have topics in mind for a year’s worth of episodes!

So, first, what can you expect from the podcast?

We want to talk about many of the different aspects of being in relationship with the people in our lives. Having strong, connected relationships makes everything about being human more interesting and enjoyable. Navigating relationships is rooted in things like connection, agency, compassion, understanding, consent, all of which are wonderful ideas, but we want to talk about what that looks like in real life, what those ideas mean in practice. In our relationships with our partner, our extended family, our friends, our kids, ourselves. 

Being in relationship with others also asks us to better understand ourselves, so we’ll be diving into that aspect as well. It’s such rich terrain to explore as we shed the bits from our past that don’t serve us and focus on being the person we want to be now. 

And we want to do all of that in bite sized bits that easily fit into your flow. So, we’ll be keeping the length of each episode focused and manageable. We will be releasing new episodes weekly and giving you some questions to reflect upon related to the topic. There will be lots of fodder for conversation and growth and we look to add episodes where we dive into questions and specific situations that bubble up for listeners as well. There will be companion PDFs available to download so you can spend time with the questions and transcripts available if you are like me and like to see actual words. 

You can subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player so that you won’t miss an episode!

And now for a quick introduction: As I mentioned, I’m Anna. David and I have been together for 36 years, married for 30. We have two grown daughters who, gratefully, still enjoy coming back to hangout with us! I worked for several years with families in crisis before turning my attention to helping parents build better relationships with their children and partners. I have been doing that amazing work for over 20 years. Currently, I work in a private practice helping couples and families move through conflicts and create an environment of collaboration and growth. I don’t believe relationships have to be hard, I think they enhance our joy as we move through this life. I look forward to sharing tools and exploring all the ways we can live joyfully together. 

PAM: And I’m Pam. My partner and I have been married for 32 years and have three grown children. I’ve long been fascinated by how human beings tick and what it means to be in relationship with the people in my life. Over the last fifteen years, I’ve helped many people cultivate strong, connected, and trusting relationships with their children and partner while navigating the day to day challenges and conflicts of life. I’m really excited to share these ideas more widely through this podcast!

And lastly, we wanted to touch on the name of the podcast. Why Living Joyfully?

We’ll dive into this more deeply in a future episode—and it will become more and more apparent over time through our conversations—but, in a nutshell, we’ve found joy to be a meaningful compass for navigating life and relationships.

And by joy we don’t mean the more surface-level happiness of things always going our way. That’s cool and all, but life doesn’t always go our way. There are ups and downs—sometimes things go sideways, or even deeply awry. There are tragedies alongside the triumphs, and there are large swathes of everyday life. Joy can be a valuable beacon in the midst of all those moments and seasons.

So, that’s a quick intro to the podcast and to us. We are excited to dive into all the things!!

As Anna mentioned, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player and we look forward to sharing our first official episode with you next week.

Bye for now!